Sources on Norman invasion of Ireland

Einhard

Hey all,
I'm teaching a first year history class and I want to make them more aware of historical evidence, and the need to treat sources in a nuanced, critical manner. I plan to base it on the Norman invasion of Ireland, and I'd appreciate it if the denizens of the history forum could provide some suggestions for sources that might have escaped me. I want the class to get an undertanding both of how we know that the invasion occurred, and also the difficulties that the sources can present in terms of bias, lacunae, and differing persectives. I'd also like to use some more recent sources to look at how historical events are viewd by later generations.

I'm considering using some of Gerald of Wales' writings, and I'd love to get an Irish perspective to counter this. Perhaps the invasions are treated in Irish annals or chronicles from the period? In poems or ballads? It would be great if I could offer differing perspectives, not just on the invasion, but also on irish life and culture at the time.

I plan also on using artefacts if I can get my hands on them. I know that ebay offer all sorts of cheap knock offs, so I plan to look for reproductions of Norman coins used in Ireland. Does anyone know if there were coins used in Ireland which testified to Norman control of the country, or at least part of it?

Finally, I want to use pictorial representations of the invasion, both contemporary and more recent. The Marriage of Strongbow and Aoife will give the class an idea of how the event was viewed by later generations, but it would be brilliant if there were contemporary representations too, showing events from all sides.

Not a lot to ask!:p I'd apreciate any comment on this, and particularly suggestions about sources I might use.

Thanks

Bannasidhe

Have a look at the primary resources available on http://celt.ucc.ie/publishd.html#tfirish.

The Annals are good for the Gaelic Irish perspective.

Einhard

That's great. Thanks. I remember when I was studying the Norman colony in ireland for my undergrad that there were appeals in England for settlers. I wonder if the text of any of those appeals survive. They might make a nice contrast with other portrayals of Irelad at the time.

What I'm really after is Norman portrayals of the Irish in a negative light, and justifying the invasion. I seem to remember that there was some of this in Gerald of Wales, and if there is anything else of that sort it's be great to have it.

Bannasidhe

Einhard wrote: »

That's great. Thanks. I remember when I was studying the Norman colony in ireland for my undergrad that there were appeals in England for settlers. I wonder if the text of any of those appeals survive. They might make a nice contrast with other portrayals of Irelad at the time.

What I'm really after is Norman portrayals of the Irish in a negative light, and justifying the invasion. I seem to remember that there was some of this in Gerald of Wales, and if there is anything else of that sort it's be great to have it.

Gerald pretty much wrote the books (online versions @ Topography of Ireland: http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/topography_ireland.pdf and Conquest of Ireland: http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/conquest_ireland.pdf you will find lashings of Anti-Irish statements and justifications. It might be worth having a look at the Calendar of Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland, Volume 1 - 1198-1304 http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=980

Or doing a search on http://www.british-history.ac.uk - most of their primary sources relating to Ireland are part of a subscription service - used to be £30 p.a. and as far as I know the sources only go back as far as 1244 so it may not be worth your while.

CDfm

I would be careful of Geraldus Cambrensis who in his "Description of Ireland," reports that the ceremony of enthroning of the king of conaill involved copulation with a white mare who is then sacrificed and cooked.

CDfm

You have got me thinking what I was interested at that age was how people died and graves are proof of death.

Strongbow at find-a-grave http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=5887495

Castles and churches was what the Norman's did too that the native Irish did not.

Bannasidhe

CDfm wrote: »

You have got me thinking what I was interested at that age was how people died and graves are proof of death.

Strongbow at find-a-grave http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=5887495

Castles and churches was what the Norman's did too that the native Irish did not.

Cormac's Chapel at Cashel pre-dates the Invasion We also did some excellent monasteries...and round towers.:D

Ever wonder why if round towers were built to watch out for Vikings why so many of them are very far from either the sea or major waterways?

Oh - and apparently the story about the lovely horse has some basis in truth.

Bannasidhe

Einhard, if you really want to give the first years the WOW factor get in touch with Jesse de Burca Montague - http://www.montague.ie/education.html.

Nothing like seeing a fully armoured Norman to leave an impression :eek:.

Enkidu

CDfm wrote: »

I would be careful of Geraldus Cambrensis who in his "Description of Ireland," reports that the ceremony of enthroning of the king of conaill involved copulation with a white mare who is then sacrificed and cooked.

Actually, hilariously enough, that probably did occur. Not by the time of Geraldus, but certainly in earlier times the rite of kingship for Donegal involved being intimate in some manner with a horse. Sitting in the cooking pot of the horse survived until quite late. It's a typical Indo-European rite. In some Indo-European cultures you had sex with the land, for example a few Old Irish sources confirm the king needed "to consummate his marriage to the land".

To old Indo-European societies modern monarchs would seem uncommitted.

CDfm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ever wonder why if round towers were built to watch out for Vikings why so many of them are very far from either the sea or major waterways?

I have wondered about that ?

I hope horses aren't involved.

Bannasidhe

CDfm wrote: »

I have wondered about that ?

I hope horses aren't involved.

Well the round towers were watch towers but not to watch out for Vikings but for the neighbours, riding horses, come for a cattle raiding, chalice stealing jaunt.

dubhthach

Giradulus is infamous for his partisan view of Ireland, it's why you get several Irish authors writing in subsequent centuries with goal of refuting what he says. Other then details such as when certain areas were captured (and by which Norman). I wouldn't trust anything he says about general Irish society as he is intentionally playing up the supposed "barbarism" of the Irish to justify the Norman invasion.

As Enkidu mentions there is probably some truth with regards to the Cenél Chonaill inaguration cermony in a pre-Christian context. Particulary as it ties into wider Indo-European traditions.

CDfm

dubhthach wrote: »

Giradulus is infamous for his partisan view of Ireland, it's why you get several Irish authors writing in subsequent centuries with goal of refuting what he says. Other then details such as when certain areas were captured (and by which Norman).

They would refute it wouldn't they.

And Bannisidhe seems to be very accepting about the horse rituals and Enkidu implies that it was a bit more widespread than Gerald of Wales wrote.

MarchDub

dubhthach wrote: »

Giradulus is infamous for his partisan view of Ireland, it's why you get several Irish authors writing in subsequent centuries with goal of refuting what he says. Other then details such as when certain areas were captured (and by which Norman). I wouldn't trust anything he says about general Irish society as he is intentionally playing up the supposed "barbarism" of the Irish to justify the Norman invasion.

Yes, Giraldus is infamous as you say for his anti-Irish views. His reason for coming to Ireland and writing as he did was specifically to justify the Norman-English invasion and write a description of the Irish and the Irish church to further justify a 'reformation' of Irish Christianity and give grounds for the continuing presence of Norman English.

dubhthach wrote: »

As Enkidu mentions there is probably some truth with regards to the Cenél Chonaill inaguration cermony in a pre-Christian context. Particulary as it ties into wider Indo-European traditions.

This issue is dealt with in a number of publications - I just pulled out Charlie Doherty's [UCD] paper 'Kingship in Early Ireland' in which he gives some reference to where this story might have come from in Gerald's writings where Gerald attempts - for propaganda reasons - to put it forward as being contemporary to the twelfth century.

Since Gerald was at pains to show how barbarous the Irish were in comparison to his adventurous relatives, one would have to be very sceptical in accepting this as a record of a contemporary event despite the quaint drawing of the activity in a manuscript of his work dating to c.1200 (National Library of Ireland, MS 700)100. He shows an acquaintance elsewhere in his book with material that comes from the same milieu as Lebor Gabála Érenn, and it is very likely that this ceremony
has been taken from a similar source or tale. The description suggests that an Asvamedha-like ceremony was practised in Ireland at some time. It is not just the union with the horse and its subsequent killing that is analogous to Indian sources, but also the bathing of the king and the acclamation of the people.

CDfm

I think there is a bit of denial creeping in here

Enkidu

It's interesting that Giraludus wrote a "false" account of the Irish to justify Norman occupation of Ireland and Romanisation of the church and centuries later Seathrún Céitinn would right his history to justify the Norman and Irish resistance to English conquest and the Protestant Reformation.

In the first case Fitzgerald is contrasted against Maguire, one civilised following proper Roman Christianity, the other barbarous following a unruly local Christianity.

Then, in Céitinn's work, Fitzgerald and Maguire are put together as Irish Catholics against Protestant England.

Nice historical symmetry I think.

CDfm

I see, you are not discounting his account of the Cenél Chonaill inaguration ceremony.

Enkidu

CDfm wrote: »

I see, you are not discounting his account of the Cenél Chonaill inaguration ceremony.

I would doubt it was done at the time he wrote his work, but I certainly don't doubt that it or something like it occurred in 6th or 7th century Ireland, in fact it would be pretty tame considering the stuff we do know. When I get home this evening I'll dig out some of the funnier stuff.

MarchDub

Enkidu wrote: »

It's interesting that Giraludus wrote a "false" account of the Irish to justify Norman occupation of Ireland and Romanisation of the church and centuries later Seathrún Céitinn would right his history to justify the Norman and Irish resistance to English conquest and the Protestant Reformation.

In the first case Fitzgerald is contrasted against Maguire, one civilised following proper Roman Christianity, the other barbarous following a unruly local Christianity.

Then, in Céitinn's work, Fitzgerald and Maguire are put together as Irish Catholics against Protestant England.

Nice historical symmetry I think.

Well, I have to say that I disagree - and this is one of the issues I personally have with the 'flattening out' or 'equalising' of what the actual historic issues were and we get to concentrate or focus only on the tactics used. The one is done in justifying an invasion of another's territory, the other trying to overthrow what was regarded as an occupier.

So similar tactics - but with very different aspirational reasons. Keating was trying to shore up a culture very much under attack and, as he saw it, [and clearly stated] on the brink of extinction.

Enkidu

MarchDub wrote: »

Well, I have to say that I disagree

I more meant the "reversal" of the Norman position. First they came to modernise Irish culture and bring it in line with European norms. Then a descendant of this group becomes one of the most passionate defenders of native Irish culture and learning. First the groups are strongly contrasted, then seen as one.

MarchDub

Enkidu wrote: »

I more meant the "reversal" of the Norman position. First they came to modernise Irish culture and bring it in line with European norms. Then a descendant of this group becomes one of the most passionate defenders of native Irish culture and learning. First the groups are strongly contrasted, then seen as one.

I see. Well you know this happens in many countries and in many cultures. Decadents are not necessarily going to take the position of those who first arrived on the shores of wherever. Their life experiences are usually entirely different.
The American revolutionaries [like Washington and Jefferson] were almost entirely descended from people who arrived there from England as good colonial subjects.

Enkidu

MarchDub wrote: »

I see. Well you know this happens in many countries and in many cultures.

Yes of course, I'm not making a point, I just think it's kind of cool, particularly since Céitinn was such a good writer and manages to make this whole new Irish identity flow naturally from the Old Irish and Bardic literary tradition.

CDfm

Enkidu wrote: »

When I get home this evening I'll dig out some of the funnier stuff.

I shall wait.

More Giraldus Springerus please

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

I shall wait.

More Giraldus Springerus please

Another grand Irish tradition - CDfm always looking for the dirt -

MarchDub

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Well the round towers were watch towers but not to watch out for Vikings but for the neighbours, riding horses, come for a cattle raiding, chalice stealing jaunt.

Now I know you must be referring to my personal hero, Feidlimid Mac Crimthainn, chalice stealer extraordinare - amongst other felonious accomplishments - who deserves a thread all of his own!

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Another grand Irish tradition - CDfm always looking for the dirt -

Are you picking on us Norman's again. Some of the posters on this thread have Cenél Chonaill seeping thru their pores.

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Are you picking on us Norman's again. Some of the posters on this thread have Cenél Chonaill seeping thru their pores.

I don't really want to examine or discuss some posters' pores or what seeps through 'em :eek:

Gee Bag

Here's a few of my favourites from Gerald of Wales.

Rothericus, King of Connacht, had a tame white goat that was remarkable of it's kind for the length of it's coat and height of it's horns. This goat had beastial intercourse with with a certain woman to whom he was entrusted. Th wretched woman, proving herself more a beast in accepting him than he did in acting, even submitted herself to his abuse.

Duvenaldus, the King of Limerick, had a woman that had a beard down to her waist. She had also a crest from her neck down along her spine, ike a one year old foal. It wa covered with hair. This woman, in spite of her two enormities was, nevertheless, not hermaphrodite, and was in other respects sufficently feminine. She followed the courth wherever it went, provoking laughs as well as wonder.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

I don't really want to examine or discuss some posters' pores or what seeps through 'em :eek:

I am not enjoying this. I am seeking historical accuracy.

Bannasidhe

CDfm wrote: »

I am not enjoying this. I am seeking historical accuracy.

Well if it's historical accuracy you are after most posters here have Niall of the Nine Hostages leaking from everywhere

A few might have a faint whiff of Genghis Khan about them too...

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8600-medieval-irish-warlord-boasts-three-million-descendants.html

CDfm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Well if it's historical accuracy you are after most posters here have Niall of the Nine Hostages leaking from everywhere

Not a mention of the coronation. Anything we should, ahem, know ?