RDF Integration

KickstartHeart

I was just reading the Reserve section on military.ie. I read this part; " included in the plan, was the formation of an integrated reserve comprising 2,656 personnel that will be fully integrated with the PDF units. These integrated personnel will have a much more dedicated training regime, training alongside their PDF comrades, under the control of the PDF unit commander. This integration is currently in the process of being formed. The scheduled timeline will be constantly monitored by the Monitoring Group, to ensure the plan maintains momentum.", under the History section of the Reserve part of the site.

I am just wondering, is there future plans for this integration? I notice that integration was due to happen a few years back but from speaking to people in the RDF, there is no integration. What are the future plans for the RDF in relation operability, training and integration? Or generally usefulness? Is the Defence Forces still going to try and make an integration work and bridge that gap between professional soldier and someone who goes on a camp in the summer and does a few 'training nights' during the year? ...Generally, what is the story with the RDF and where is it going. And If you want to say 'they'l have it gone in a few years anyway' or anything like that, don't post. The idea of just getting rid of the countries whole reserve force is simply stupid, and not actually on the cards. So leave it out. I know that the RDF has a LOT of very capable, fit, and suitable people for much more challenging military service and training. Anybody think those kinds of people are going to get a chance to do anything more challenging in the future within the RDF?

ruserious

First off, the future of the RDF is in question.
Secondly, if it does survive (personally I think it will), it will be quite a while until it recovers from the lack or recruitment past few years.
The NSR is defacto integrated in the lower ranks.

OS119

KickstartHeart wrote: »

...Anybody think those kinds of people are going to get a chance to do anything more challenging in the future within the RDF?

no.

4 reasons all conflate to doom the RDF:

1) having Labour in the coalition means that there will not be any overseas deployments that challenge the PDF - if the PDF aren't challenged, they won't need to dip into their reserves.

2) there is absolutely no money whatsoever. the government and the PDF will take the view that if they didn't need the RDF when the government was awash with money, they certainly don't need it when they are skint.

3) because integration 'didn't work' - and yes, we all know it was shot at birth - politicians view the RDF as being broken or not fit for purpose. nothing in the immediate term is going to change that.

4) given that the PDF are going to face significant redundancies, there is no chance whatsoever that they are going to tell the government that 'yeah, sure, the RDF could do X, Y, or Z, and do it for far less than it costs to employ us'.

like others, i'm not sure the government has the balls to scrap the RDF in its totality - but i would not be surprised to see the NSR pretty much preserved, while the AR is 'reconfigured' to perhaps 1000 paper members, probably with no grat, no training time, no attending allowances, no role and no actual existance.

KickstartHeart

ruserious wrote: »

First off, the future of the RDF is in question.
.

Take a look at the DoD website. The minister has asked the chief of staff to draft potential plans for an army reorg that involves "streamlining" the army AND the RDF. I gather from that they're not particularly thinking about getting rid of it, rather trying sort it out. You could be right, but I'm fairly sure they're not actually thinking about getting rid of it. It would be a bit mad to do that. I'd imagine the Defence Forces has become quite path dependent with having a reserve!?

Thanks for the replies lads. More posts and opinions still welcome

ruserious

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Take a look at the DoD website. The minister has asked the chief of staff to draft potential plans for an army reorg that involves "streamlining" the army AND the RDF. I gather from that they're not particularly thinking about getting rid of it, rather trying sort it out. You could be right, but I'm fairly sure they're not actually thinking about getting rid of it. It would be a bit mad to do that. I'd imagine the Defence Forces has become quite path dependent with having a reserve!?

Thanks for the replies lads. More posts and opinions still welcome

I 100% agree with the bold which is why I later said in the post that I think the RDF will survive.
The government has not shown to date any reason why they would make a critical juncture relating to any institution, which the RDF is in a sense.
My own opinion is the AR will be cut to mirror PDF units and NSR as is.

Doctor14

KickstartHeart wrote: »

I am just wondering, is there future plans for this integration? I notice that integration was due to happen a few years back but from speaking to people in the RDF, there is no integration.

Integration happened in 2007 & 2008. For a million different reasons, it died a death with everyone sharing in the blame. Never really had a chance. Don't see it happening again.

xflyer

I know a couple of RDF people who have specialist skills and who work with the PDF, including the ARW. If there's a future for the RDF that will be the model. Some would be ex PDF, others directly recruited.

The days when you could sign up one week and stay until your first pair of boots were issued are long over. But the current RDF is not far enough removed from the old FCA.

There is need for an RDF of some sort. But the old model is broken and out of date. If it was ever to be properly utilised it would need extra money. Does anyone think that will ever happen?

KickstartHeart

ruserious wrote: »

My own opinion is the AR will be cut to mirror PDF units and NSR as is.

Wouldn't that be a good thing though? What would that mean for the likes of the people in it who have been extremely active, and have completed NCO's courses and the likes and are quite competent?

Doctor14 wrote: »

Integration happened in 2007 & 2008. For a million different reasons, it died a death with everyone sharing in the blame. Never really had a chance. Don't see it happening again.

Why did it go so wrong? I genuinely don't know.

xflyer wrote: »

I know a couple of RDF people who have specialist skills and who work with the PDF, including the ARW. If there's a future for the RDF that will be the model. Some would be ex PDF, others directly recruited.

The days when you could sign up one week and stay until your first pair of boots were issued are long over. But the current RDF is not far enough removed from the old FCA.

There is need for an RDF of some sort. But the old model is broken and out of date. If it was ever to be properly utilised it would need extra money. Does anyone think that will ever happen?

Yeah I have heard of a few people doing work like that. Do you think it could be utilised in a sense, as in in the probably not so near future, if the RDF gets back on its feat and maybe integrates successfully etc. Anybody see a potential future for RDF people being sent overseas alongside their army counterparts?

ruserious

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Wouldn't that be a good thing though? What would that mean for the likes of the people in it who have been extremely active, and have completed NCO's courses and the likes and are quite competent?

Yes it is, I never said it would be a negative.

Maoltuile

xflyer wrote: »

I know a couple of RDF people who have specialist skills and who work with the PDF, including the ARW.

I think I know one of the people involved, too.

If there's a future for the RDF that will be the model. Some would be ex PDF, others directly recruited.

The days when you could sign up one week and stay until your first pair of boots were issued are long over.

The separate existence of the First and Second-line reserves is nuts. And unfortunately, the days of buggering off when you get your uniform (and tick the box for the PDF interview) is still with us - one particular waste of space took one of the recruitment slots last year, did camp and then hasn't been since, without repercussion.

But the current RDF is not far enough removed from the old FCA.

There is need for an RDF of some sort. But the old model is broken and out of date. If it was ever to be properly utilised it would need extra money. Does anyone think that will ever happen?

Fire (literally by shooting, preferably) the useless 90% of Cadre, use the savings to get the Reserve up to a functioning level to start augmenting the PDF.

Maoltuile

OS119 wrote: »

no.

4 reasons all conflate to doom the RDF:

1) having Labour in the coalition means that there will not be any overseas deployments that challenge the PDF - if the PDF aren't challenged, they won't need to dip into their reserves.

Not so. There are plenty of UN missions, same as before. Unless you're imaging that we should become part of NATO?

2) there is absolutely no money whatsoever. the government and the PDF will take the view that if they didn't need the RDF when the government was awash with money, they certainly don't need it when they are skint.

I don't see the logic in this, at all. The RDF was pretty much explicitly an accountant's cost-saving measure to create a source of 'cheap' soldiers to augment the PDF (the re-org and integration make no other sense). The ongoing drama between the Garda and their own Reserve bears watching for guessing where the Government is going with this.

3) because integration 'didn't work' - and yes, we all know it was shot at birth - politicians view the RDF as being broken or not fit for purpose. nothing in the immediate term is going to change that.

Apart from the present need of the Gov to overcome long-entrenched special interests in making efficiencies. I have a feeling that this trumps any lobbying by the PDF, if the case is made and presented properly to the DOD.

4) given that the PDF are going to face significant redundancies, there is no chance whatsoever that they are going to tell the government that 'yeah, sure, the RDF could do X, Y, or Z, and do it for far less than it costs to employ us'.

Except that the government are no fools, and are likely aware of what's going on here. As I say, it's a changed climate and many previously unsurpassable obstacles no longer are.

like others, i'm not sure the government has the balls to scrap the RDF in its totality - but i would not be surprised to see the NSR pretty much preserved, while the AR is 'reconfigured' to perhaps 1000 paper members, probably with no grat, no training time, no attending allowances, no role and no actual existance.

I don't hold to that pessimistic view. I think the RDF opportunity is finally here to step up to the plate and deliver, and the PDF lobby has never been weaker.

KickstartHeart

ruserious wrote: »

Yes it is, I never said it would be a negative.

Yes, that's why I asked would it be a good thing or not, because you didn't say.



Thanks for the replies lads. The reorg of 2012, from what has been said about it so far on the DoD site, is for the army AND the army reserve. Any ideas what they might re-organise about the army reserve?

And can anyone answer my question as to why the integration of the reserves and the army didn't work?

ruserious

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Yes, that's why I asked would it be a good thing or not, because you didn't say.



Thanks for the replies lads. The reorg of 2012, from what has been said about it so far on the DoD site, is for the army AND the army reserve. Any ideas what they might re-organise about the army reserve?

And can anyone answer my question as to why the integration of the reserves and the army didn't work?

Cut down of the 'country units'. Mirror two brigade structure.

Didn't work because of vested interests.
PDF officer corps didn't want a reserve which would be NEEDED.
They like having ye in a situation which benefits them short term (cadre) but if shít hits the fan, drop ye like a hat.

The analogy of the devil holding a man by the neck over a hole which leads to hell just to pick an apple for him springs to mind.

KickstartHeart

ruserious wrote: »

Cut down of the 'country units'. Mirror two brigade structure.

Didn't work because of vested interests.
PDF officer corps didn't want a reserve which would be NEEDED.
They like having ye in a situation which benefits them short term (cadre) but if shít hits the fan, drop ye like a hat.

The analogy ?f the devil holding a man by the neck over a hole which leads to hell just to pick an apple for him springs to mind.

Isn't the RDF hugely dependent on those country units for its members though?

Maoltuile

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Isn't the RDF hugely dependent on those country units for its members though?

Yes. There's only so much of a recruiting pool, and there are very strong local and family ties to the RDF/FCÁ the length and breadth of the country.

Maoltuile

KickstartHeart wrote: »

And can anyone answer my question as to why the integration of the reserves and the army didn't work?

It was fundamentally an attempt to cynically siphon off the more committed members to provide a cheap source of soldiery, without the investment in resources that full integration (which is what should happen) would require.

KickstartHeart

Maoltuile wrote: »

It was fundamentally an attempt to cynically siphon off the more committed members to provide a cheap source of soldiery, without the investment in resources that full integration (which is what should happen) would require.

Im not sure if I know what you mean!?

Maoltuile

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Im not sure if I know what you mean!?

The creation of the "RDF" kept the existing FCÁ organisation untouched with little additional resources or purpose, apart from rationalising them to provide sources of manpower for the associated PDF units (20th and 21st Battalions were amalgamated to create the 62nd, which was the 'feeder' unit for the 2nd Bn's Integrated platoon, etc.).

galwaycyclist

Maoltuile wrote: »

The creation of the "RDF" kept the existing FCÁ organisation untouched with little additional resources or purpose, apart from rationalising them to provide sources of manpower for the associated PDF units (20th and 21st Battalions were amalgamated to create the 62nd, which was the 'feeder' unit for the 2nd Bn's Integrated platoon, etc.).

I would go further a local defence force (FCA) has a self evident mission. I am still not clear what the rdfs purpose is.

xflyer

I'm sorry the 'country units' need to go and that includes the Dublin/Cork/Galway units. Even my old regiment the 20th now 62nd. Pains me to say it. We need specialists probably attached to PDF units.

I remember my pal, RDF,I got a lift from him recently. He was on his way to some exercise with the PDF. I was in the car. I picked up his Kevlar helmet and commented on the weight of it as I put it on my head. He told me how difficult it was to get that helmet in spite of his position mostly because he was RDF.

A guy like him would be difficult to replace even within the PDF.

Those people are needed.

I hope that's recognised.

syklops

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Thanks for the replies lads. The reorg of 2012, from what has been said about it so far on the DoD site, is for the army AND the army reserve. Any ideas what they might re-organise about the army reserve?

I would imagine they will be looking for savings like all government departments at the moment. They will be using buzz words like streamlining masquerading as cuts.

KickstartHeart wrote: »

And can anyone answer my question as to why the integration of the reserves and the army didn't work?

There are a number of theories, and a number or contributing reasons. One is that the PDF didn't want the RDF integrated. It's also a bit like the current debate about interns taking jobs paid workers could do.

There was also a question mark over the general level of fitness in the RDF, which was understandable. The obvious thing was to bring in regular fitness training for the RDF but the regulations said only a qualified PT instructor could give PT classes, and the RDF basically didnt have any PT instructors, and no PDF PT instructors were made available. If the PDF had wanted the RDF integrated that could have been solved easily enough, but no decision was made and the RDF was told to try and get its fitness level up "as best you can", but with no access to training, gym equipment, etc.

In my opinion, they also did it at the wrong time. They tried to get more commitment from the RDF at a time when the country was at the greatest level of employment in 20 years. A lot of the driven, switched on members were in well paying jobs, so doing tactics on a Saturday is fine, but doing fitness tests on a Tuesday was out of the question.

So, the PDF didnt want it, there was no real political support, timing was poor, the new equipment wasn't issued properly(some units got twice the amount of PLCE, some got none), the list goes on and on.

OS119

syklops wrote: »

...So, the PDF didnt want it, there was no real political support, timing was poor, the new equipment wasn't issued properly(some units got twice the amount of PLCE, some got none), the list goes on and on.

while my understanding is that all the above is true, there is compelling evidence that many in the RDF who wanted to take part in the Integration project faced real hostility from within the RDF itself.

i've heard of people being completely blanked/abused at their units, to being 'required' by their CoC to turn up to both integrated activities and non-integrated activities (and therefore get grief at home/work and subsequently bin the integration project), to being refused mandated equipment/clothing by their parent RDF unit, or being issued the worst kit the unit could find - broken belt-kit, bergens, helmets etc...

the impression being given was that there were two issues, neither of them attractive: firstly that a significant proportion of the RDF CoC didn't want RDF people going off to the PDF, seeing a professional, motivated force and then coming back and seeing the traditional RDF CoC in their true colours, and secondly that those members of the RDF who could be thought of as 'hangovers' from the FCA were hostile to the idea that if the RDF could be radically improved, it might be used. two week paid drinking holidays for 45 yo, 20 stone corporals would be unlikely to survive in an organisation of fit, committed, trained soldiers for whom a four month tour in Chad was a distinct likelyhood.

some CoC's embraced it, but from what i've heard, they were a minority - and a small one.

KickstartHeart

OS119 wrote: »

while my understanding is that all the above is true, there is compelling evidence that many in the RDF who wanted to take part in the Integration project faced real hostility from within the RDF itself.

i've heard of people being completely blanked/abused at their units, to being 'required' by their CoC to turn up to both integrated activities and non-integrated activities (and therefore get grief at home/work and subsequently bin the integration project), to being refused mandated equipment/clothing by their parent RDF unit, or being issued the worst kit the unit could find - broken belt-kit, bergens, helmets etc...

the impression being given was that there were two issues, neither of them attractive: firstly that a significant proportion of the RDF CoC didn't want RDF people going off to the PDF, seeing a professional, motivated force and then coming back and seeing the traditional RDF CoC in their true colours, and secondly that those members of the RDF who could be thought of as 'hangovers' from the FCA were hostile to the idea that if the RDF could be radically improved, it might be used. two week paid drinking holidays for 45 yo, 20 stone corporals would be unlikely to survive in an organisation of fit, committed, trained soldiers for whom a four month tour in Chad was a distinct likelyhood.

some CoC's embraced it, but from what i've heard, they were a minority - and a small one.

syklops wrote: »

I would imagine they will be looking for savings like all government departments at the moment. They will be using buzz words like streamlining masquerading as cuts.



There are a number of theories, and a number or contributing reasons. One is that the PDF didn't want the RDF integrated. It's also a bit like the current debate about interns taking jobs paid workers could do.

There was also a question mark over the general level of fitness in the RDF, which was understandable. The obvious thing was to bring in regular fitness training for the RDF but the regulations said only a qualified PT instructor could give PT classes, and the RDF basically didnt have any PT instructors, and no PDF PT instructors were made available. If the PDF had wanted the RDF integrated that could have been solved easily enough, but no decision was made and the RDF was told to try and get its fitness level up "as best you can", but with no access to training, gym equipment, etc.

In my opinion, they also did it at the wrong time. They tried to get more commitment from the RDF at a time when the country was at the greatest level of employment in 20 years. A lot of the driven, switched on members were in well paying jobs, so doing tactics on a Saturday is fine, but doing fitness tests on a Tuesday was out of the question.

So, the PDF didnt want it, there was no real political support, timing was poor, the new equipment wasn't issued properly(some units got twice the amount of PLCE, some got none), the list goes on and on.

Interesting points. And is there a good future for the RDF so? Could any of these issues be rectified? Is the Defence Forces still going to try and make its Reserve Army actually useful? Or is it doomed to stay the way it is or just be done away with?

syklops

there is compelling evidence that many in the RDF who wanted to take part in the Integration project faced real hostility from within the RDF itself.

I didnt see a lot of hostility in the RDF itself, but instead more passive aggressive stuff, like courses not being announced,

... or being issued the worst kit the unit could find - broken belt-kit, bergens, helmets etc

Well I certainly saw that. I remember seeing the recruitment posters of the RDF guy in full PLCE when at the time we were still using the old pattern 58 stuff and it had not been maintained well at all. there was a few PLCE kits rumoured to be in stores but it was pooled, which, like the wet gear meant it was usually in rag order and the wrong size by the time you got it. If they had issued it, it probably would have lasted longer as people would look after their own one better than the pooled stuff.

I remember one guy going off on a course and the officer told him to beg borrow or steal some PLCE for it, and he was saying to me, he would happily steal some but there wasnt any to be found. Imagine going on a course with PDF with Pattern 58 webbing and everyone else has black berets and PLCE. Not great for morale.

syklops

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Interesting points. And is there a good future for the RDF so? Could any of these issues be rectified? Is the Defence Forces still going to try and make its Reserve Army actually useful? Or is it doomed to stay the way it is or just be done away with?

I suspect it is doomed to either stay the way it is, or get done away with. The recruitment ban has stopped fresh blood entering it. Some units tried to get some fresh blood in by discharging people who hadnt attended in a while to get permission to get some new people in. Unfortunately, they shot themselves in the foot, and all they managed to do was shrink the size of their units. A few more years of no recruitment and it will die off itself naturally.

Maoltuile

syklops wrote: »

Some units tried to get some fresh blood in by discharging people who hadnt attended in a while to get permission to get some new people in. Unfortunately, they shot themselves in the foot, and all they managed to do was shrink the size of their units. A few more years of no recruitment and it will die off itself naturally.

This, *this*, is something that Shatter should be pursued on. His reasoning for the pathetic level of recruiting allowed last year was that 'we shouldn't recruit if they can't do FTT'. Well, let's tabulate up the 'savings' from the reduction of numbers in the past year, and force him to re-allocate those mandays to allow recruitment.

RDFRA, where are you?

OS119

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Interesting points. And is there a good future for the RDF so? Could any of these issues be rectified? Is the Defence Forces still going to try and make its Reserve Army actually useful? Or is it doomed to stay the way it is or just be done away with?

i don't believe it can be significantly improved in the present circumstances - and i'm not talking about money.

the driver of improvement is neccessity - the RDF aren't neccessary, so whats the driver?

now, if you wanted real improvement, you have the minster anounce that in 18 months the RDF would provide a full battlegroup to ISAF for operations in Helmand province (or other high-intensity sh1thole of your choice) for 6 months, and that any member of the RDF who refused mobilisation would be instantly discharged. consolidate all the RDF units into single task units - Artillery, Logs, Signals, Infantry, Cav/Reece, Med Spt etc... and train the fcuk into them for a year (1 pde night a week, one single day a month, one full weekend a month, two weeks full-time trg a year and regular fitness and skill tests with failure to attend and pass resulting in discharge).

you wouldn't actually send them anywhere, but after a year of that you'd have got rid of the wasters, war-dodgers, walts and oxygen theives. you also probably end up recruiting a 'better class' of applicants - certainly the TA found a higher calibre of candidate applying once the TA started being used on a large scale. serious, talented, committed people are less likely to want to waste their time in an organisation they percieve as both being purposeless and infested with bluffers.

KickstartHeart

Well the RDF actually doesn't do anything. So ye're right. There is no reason why anyone would want to join unless they wanted to get into the actual army that gets used around the world and at home. Why aren't they given a role? Never mind helmand or anything unrealistic like that, how about bank runs? A course could be run for that for trained members. Once you have that course done, you could be able to do those duties. Giving the RDF an actual goal point to aim for (in this example providing trained disciplined personal to run armed guard duties on cash transits around the country) would surely increase standards, and motivation for members to put in effort!? I can imagine an NCO giving a class on platoon battle drills, and a member asking, sorry corporal, when will we need this, other than on exercise once every year? If the corporal turns around and says, well.. other than that... never. Why would people want to train and put in effort at all?

If the RDF could even get involved with duties like that, maybe then it could be taken further and they could be given better roles. Imagine a reserve where members could actually get the training they need and take part in overseas missions along with the army! Its not as impossible as people think. Would definitely save the state huge amounts of money having reservists that are actually useful. Imagine RDF personal even just working in oversea's camps, and getting to go out on patrols a few times while they're there. Thats a decent goal.

The RDFRA is the RDF equivalent to the PDF's representative body yeah?

Do they pressure for these sort of things? What do they actually do?

I'm sorry but to me it just seams that the reserves, with a bit of restructuring, effort, and resource re-allocation, could be something of great use to the Irish military. In simple terms, it could be considered a waste of money at the moment, but could easily be turned into something that could save huge amounts of money and be very very useful. Why is it that the idea of the RDF ever being made use of seams so far fetched to its members, no matter how much they would like to be used, or how capable they are of being used?

ruserious

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Well the RDF actually doesn't do anything. So ye're right. There is no reason why anyone would want to join unless they wanted to get into the actual army that gets used around the world and at home.

The NSR go on patrol with PDF so that's something.
Also many join out of pride of the country and wanting to contribute to the DF.

KickstartHeart

ruserious wrote: »

The NSR go on patrol with PDF so that's something.
Also many join out of pride of the country and wanting to contribute to the DF.

Sorry my mistake. I meant AR when I said RDF. My bad. Nothing I'm saying here is in relation to the NSR, they seam to be on the ball.

syklops

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Well the RDF actually doesn't do anything. So ye're right. There is no reason why anyone would want to join unless they wanted to get into the actual army that gets used around the world and at home. Why aren't they given a role? Never mind helmand or anything unrealistic like that, how about bank runs? A course could be run for that for trained members. Once you have that course done, you could be able to do those duties. Giving the RDF an actual goal point to aim for (in this example providing trained disciplined personal to run armed guard duties on cash transits around the country) would surely increase standards, and motivation for members to put in effort!? I can imagine an NCO giving a class on platoon battle drills, and a member asking, sorry corporal, when will we need this, other than on exercise once every year? If the corporal turns around and says, well.. other than that... never. Why would people want to train and put in effort at all?

If the RDF could even get involved with duties like that, maybe then it could be taken further and they could be given better roles. Imagine a reserve where members could actually get the training they need and take part in overseas missions along with the army! Its not as impossible as people think. Would definitely save the state huge amounts of money having reservists that are actually useful. Imagine RDF personal even just working in oversea's camps, and getting to go out on patrols a few times while they're there. Thats a decent goal.

The RDFRA is the RDF equivalent to the PDF's representative body yeah?

Do they pressure for these sort of things? What do they actually do?

I'm sorry but to me it just seams that the reserves, with a bit of restructuring, effort, and resource re-allocation, could be something of great use to the Irish military. In simple terms, it could be considered a waste of money at the moment, but could easily be turned into something that could save huge amounts of money and be very very useful. Why is it that the idea of the RDF ever being made use of seams so far fetched to its members, no matter how much they would like to be used, or how capable they are of being used?

Yeah its not going to happen because the PDF get an allowance for doing Cash in Transit. They would never allow that allowance to go to RDF members instead, because as they see it, if the RDF can do CIT there are other duties they could do for 'free', which could mean a reduction in funding to the Defence Forces, even a reduction in numbers. Turkeys wont vote for Christmas.