Border controls in Irish Ports are a joke

hurler14a

In March, 2004 I got the National Express bus from the UK to Ireland. On arrival into Dublin Port, we were told to have our passports ready for inspection. Most of the people on the bus were non-Causcasian, the woman behind me had an Angolan passport and the man across from me had an Algerian passport. The garda who boarded the bus had no paperwork with him and spent one second max glancing at each passport. He didn't note the passport numbers of non-EU nationals or names, just waved everyone through. I witnessed this scenario between 15-20 times as I arrived in Ireland on the bus.

Coming into Rosslare from the UK, there was almost never passport control. Anyone could walk in and I rarely saw a garda.

Is this safe?
Why were the gardai not keeping such records?

mike65

and you waited 8 years to tell us?

al28283

not keeping what records?

hurler14a

Records regarding how these non-EU nationals got into the country.
(Dublin port on the bus from the UK). Then, it could be proved they came in from the UK.The gardai never noted the passport numbers or names of these people as they came into the country or that they were on the bus from the UK.

Did they have permission to be in the country? This was not recorded either. No names or passport numbers were noted. Everyone was waved through. No record of either was being kept.

Jarren

Any good to you OP?



The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the two countries. Since 1997, some controls are in effect on arrivals in Ireland from the UK but this does not mean that you are required to carry your Irish or UK passport with you when you travel between the countries. You must, however, carry an acceptable form of photo-identification, examples of which are listed below. When you arrive in Ireland, you may sometimes be asked for valid official photo-identification which shows your nationality. As you are being asked to prove that you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements, it would be advisable to travel with your passport.

A valid passport
A driver's licence with photo
An international student card
A national ID card
A bus pass with photo
A Garda ID with photo
A work ID with photo
The Common Travel Area also involves some co-operation on matters relating to immigration issues. A third country national, for example, may be refused permission to enter Ireland if it is his or her intention to travel onwards to the UK and he or she would not qualify for admission to the UK under the Aliens (Amendment) Order 1975.

Irish immigration officers have the power to carry out checks on people arriving in the State from the UK and to refuse them entry to the State on the same grounds as apply to people arriving from outside the Common Travel Area. These checks are carried out selectively.

People with UK visas or residence permits
If you are a citizen of a country whose nationals need a visa to enter Ireland and you have a valid UK visa or residence permit, you are still required to have a valid visa before you arrive in Ireland. Further information about visa applications can be obtained from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade or from Irish embassies and consulates abroad.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html

al28283

hurler14a wrote: »

Records regarding how these non-EU nationals got into the country.
(Dublin port on the bus from the UK). Then, it could be proved they came in from the UK.The gardai never noted the passport numbers or names of these people as they came into the country or that they were on the bus from the UK.

Did they have permission to be in the country? This was not recorded either. No names or passport numbers were noted. Everyone was waved through. No record of either was being kept.

What makes you think records aren't being kept? you have to check in when travelling on a bus, ferry or plane between countries. It's a little more slack for people from certain countries, like an Irish person can just stroll into the UK with little hassle, even without a passport, but everyone has to check in with some form of ID. And these records are kept

There'd be little point in a garda taking down everyones passport number when it's already been done

hurler14a

Rosslare:Citizens of non-EU nations wouldn't need a visa to enter Ireland even if they were supposed to have one. They could just come in by Rosslare. There was no checking of passports, let alone visas there.

Dublin Port: I never saw any checks whatsoever applied even with non-EU passport holders. I doubt whether the non-EU nationals had visas for Ireland. The garda did not examine the passports. You just held it and within 1 second he had moved on. He had 'checked' the whole bus in 30 seconds.

al28283

hurler14a wrote: »

Rosslare:Citizens of non-EU nations wouldn't need a visa to enter Ireland. They could just come in by Rosslare. There was no checking of passports, let alone visas there.

Dublin Port: I never saw any checks whatsoever applied even with non-EU passport holders. I doubt whether the non-EU nationals had visas for Ireland. The garda did not examine the passports. You just held it and within 1 second he had moved on. He had 'checked' the whole bus in 30 seconds.

How did you get on the bus without checking in at the bus station???

djpbarry

hurler14a wrote: »

Dublin Port: I never saw any checks whatsoever applied even with non-EU passport holders. I doubt whether the non-EU nationals had visas for Ireland. The garda did not examine the passports. You just held it and within 1 second he had moved on. He had 'checked' the whole bus in 30 seconds.

There are no border controls between the UK & Ireland - it's a common travel area. I have traveled by sail and rail between Dublin and London on several occasions and I have never been asked to produce a passport. Probably because I don't need to. And I even look a bit "Non-EU".

al28283

djpbarry wrote: »

There are no border controls between the UK & Ireland - it's a common travel area. I have traveled by sail and rail between Dublin and London on several occasions and I have never been asked to produce a passport. Probably because I don't need to.

That's odd, of the 3 or 4 dozen ferry/bus trips I've made between the UK and Ireland over the last 2 years I have had to show ID at check in every single time

hurler14a

As long as you pay for the ticket and have photo identification National Express will let anyone onto the bus. Its a private British bus company.
Yes, as long as non-EU nationals showed id in Dublin Port, regardless of where that passport was from, they were all let into Ireland. How could the gardai have checked the visas when they often didn't pick up the passport?

In Rosslare, passport were rarely checked. Anyone could walk in- from any non-EU country and not be asked for passports let alone visas.

Icepick

non-Caucasians visiting Ireland?:eek:
They were in the back of the bus, right?

Foghladh

It works in both directions even for air travel. I fly over and back to Stansted every weekend and you're not required to show any ID on arrival at Stansted other than your boarding card to show that you originated from an Irish airport. I think once in 30 odd trips I was stopped by a random passport check. Travel between the UK and Ireland is essentially internal

hurler14a

In March 2004, I told the garda who 'checked' the passports that I was concerned by what I had seen. He told me he was too. He said, he was told to let everyone through, regardless of where they came from. He said he was afraid of losing his job if he didn't do what he was told.

djpbarry

hurler14a wrote: »

Yes, as long as non-EU nationals showed id in Dublin Port, regardless of where that passport was from, they were all let into Ireland. How could the gardai have checked the visas when they often didn't pick up the passport?

Nobody traveling from the UK to Ireland needs a visa - there is no immigration control between the UK & Ireland.

If a private operator requires ID at check-in, that's their prerogative. But it is quite possible to travel between the UK & Ireland without being required to show any form of ID at any stage. You can get a flight from Dublin to any UK city and at no stage will you be required to show a passport to anyone.

fasttalkerchat

A mate of mine got home from Manchester with a student card from his university. Didn't even have his DOB on it!

cml387

I genuinely don't understand the wonder here.

Would people prefer if you needed a passport to go to the UK?

Neither the UK or Ireland are Schengen countries,and the UK Border controls are probably more rigorous than ours.
So anyone entering Ireland from the UK who may be a "furriner" has already negotiated the UK Border controls.

hurler14a

People from certain countries e.g. Nigeria, Angola need a valid Irish entry visa before arriving in the State, whether by air, sea or land. This means that they should still be subject to immigration control at the point of entry to the State even if they have a visa. So, non-EU nationals even if arriving from the UK (on the bus) shoud have a visa authorising them to land in Ireland. The garda didn't pick up the passport to examine for visas in Dublin Port.

There were almost never visa checks for non-EU nationals in Rosslare port as gardai rarely checked passports.

ArmaniJeanss

With a big open 220 mile long border between Northern Ireland and Ireland theres probably not much point in trying to stop people getting into the country anyway.
It would be a massive waste of resources to have dozens of gardai checking passports at every port.

If you wish to prevent people coming in, then its surely more cost effective to attack it from the point of view of making the system as difficult as possible for people who do come here 'illegally'. So they go to the very bottom of the queue for residency, asylum, work visas etc.

oppenheimer1

djpbarry wrote: »

Nobody traveling from the UK to Ireland needs a visa - there is no immigration control between the UK & Ireland.

If a private operator requires ID at check-in, that's their prerogative. But it is quite possible to travel between the UK & Ireland without being required to show any form of ID at any stage. You can get a flight from Dublin to any UK city and at no stage will you be required to show a passport to anyone.

This isn't true. Visas are issued country specific and not for the common travel area. A person from say Angola would need an Irish visa to travel from the UK to Ireland.

From wiki "Unlike the Schengen Agreement, the Common Travel Area provides no mechanism for the mutual recognition of leave to enter and remain, and the United Kingdom and Ireland operate entirely separate visa systems with distinct entry requirements. In general, a United Kingdom visa will not allow a traveller entry to Ireland, nor vice-versa."

meglome

hurler14a wrote: »

People from certain countries e.g. Nigeria, Angola need a valid Irish entry visa before arriving in the State, whether by air, sea or land. This means that they should still be subject to immigration control at the point of entry to the State even if they have a visa. So, non-EU nationals even if arriving from the UK (on the bus) shoud have a visa authorising them to land in Ireland. The garda didn't pick up the passport to examine for visas in Dublin Port.

There were almost never visa checks for non-EU nationals in Rosslare port as gardai rarely checked passports.

I regularly see the Gardai on the Belfast to Dublin bus and taking people off for further checks.

Does seeing this at the port a handful of times make it the norm? and how do you know that most of these people don't have a visa or Irish passport?

JustinDee

They don't know.
Fake quotes, wiki-wagging, alarmist tosh with only generalisations to 'justify' and an irrational disdain for anyone who happens to be a of different race or ethnicity is all I'm reading from these people.

Richard

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

This isn't true. Visas are issued country specific and not for the common travel area. A person from say Angola would need an Irish visa to travel from the UK to Ireland.

It would make sense to have a more integrated approach because foreign nationals who require a visa can illegally move across the border. Mutual recognition of Visas would help.

djpbarry

hurler14a wrote: »

There were almost never visa checks for non-EU nationals in Rosslare port as gardai rarely checked passports.

There are no border controls between the UK & Ireland – what part of that is not clear enough?

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

This isn't true. Visas are issued country specific and not for the common travel area. A person from say Angola would need an Irish visa to travel from the UK to Ireland.

I know, I’m aware of that. I’m simply making the point that, in practice, there is no immigration control between the UK & Ireland.

EDIT: I've just re-read my earlier post - I could have worded that better.

Marcusm

Jarren wrote: »

Any good to you OP?



The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the two countries. Since 1997, some controls are in effect on arrivals in Ireland from the UK but this does not mean that you are required to carry your Irish or UK passport with you when you travel between the countries. You must, however, carry an acceptable form of photo-identification, examples of which are listed below. When you arrive in Ireland, you may sometimes be asked for valid official photo-identification which shows your nationality. As you are being asked to prove that you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements, it would be advisable to travel with your passport.

A valid passport
A driver's licence with photo
An international student card
A national ID card
A bus pass with photo
A Garda ID with photo
A work ID with photo
The Common Travel Area also involves some co-operation on matters relating to immigration issues. A third country national, for example, may be refused permission to enter Ireland if it is his or her intention to travel onwards to the UK and he or she would not qualify for admission to the UK under the Aliens (Amendment) Order 1975.

Irish immigration officers have the power to carry out checks on people arriving in the State from the UK and to refuse them entry to the State on the same grounds as apply to people arriving from outside the Common Travel Area. These checks are carried out selectively.

People with UK visas or residence permits
If you are a citizen of a country whose nationals need a visa to enter Ireland and you have a valid UK visa or residence permit, you are still required to have a valid visa before you arrive in Ireland. Further information about visa applications can be obtained from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade or from Irish embassies and consulates abroad.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html

As is made clear int he last bit, passport free travel in the common travel area appliesonly to nationals of the common travel area. If the OP is correct that the persons on the coach were not UK or Irish nationals then even if they had relatively free entry (e.g. Brazilians who get 90 days here for vacation) then there should still be passport stamps etc so that those persons were able to demonstrate their legal status if ever questioned by a Garda during their visit.

Over the last 6 months I have taken the Holyhead-Dublin ferry 8 times and been stopped on the UK side 10 times - yes sometimes on the way out and way in. He stops can be by port security, local police, Borders Agency for passports etc or Borders Agency for a full car search for illicit items (drugs, excess cash and porn!).

When I cam over just shy of 3 weeks ago, I was stopped in Dublin port which was the first time I have ever seen anyone beong stopped or inspected in 4 years of driving this route by car. He just wanted to know that I lived in the UK and could justify my UK plates - get the impression it was more of a VRT/Customs question.

Marcusm

djpbarry wrote: »

There are no border controls between the UK & Ireland – what part of that is not clear enough?

It's clear that you are speaking rubbish. There are border controls, it's just that an Irish or UK national needs only to demonstrate their nationality rather than carry a passport. In fact the commoin travel area is not even enshrined in legislation in Ireland although it is in the UK. THe UK chooses not to generally impose strict enforcement in (say) Heathrow Terminal 1 because it does not see that as a weak link it its security chain, knowing that with limited international flights from visa countries, most attempts at illegal entry would not come via Ireland. The same cannot be said the other way around.

Richard

Marcusm wrote: »

It's clear that you are speaking rubbish. There are border controls, it's just that an Irish or UK national needs only to demonstrate their nationality rather than carry a passport.

Yes, you're right. Here's more...

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html

http://fco.innovate.direct.gov.uk/countries/ireland/travel_advice_full

hurler14a

By not keeping records of non-EU nationals coming into the country at our ports and not checking for visas, are the gardai (Department of Justice) facilitating bogus asylum seekers and fraud?

If it was documented where people entered Ireland from (UK) as they came on the bus from the UK, it would be much easier to proove this is not the first country outside of their home country they landed in, therby making making the asylum process simpler. Also, the gardai would have a clearer idea of who these migrants are and where they came from.

By keeping records of non-EU nationals entering Irish ports, It would help make it clear that any non-EU nationals who came into the country without proper visas for entry into Ireland would have come in by Northern Ireland and questions could be asked of the Northern Ireland authorities.

It would cut down on fraud as it would help to see who these people are and what is their true identity.

djpbarry

Marcusm wrote: »

It's clear that you are speaking rubbish.

I shall rephrase - there are virtually no border controls. I'm stating this in the context of the thread title - the OP has not made it clear whether they feel existing border controls are not being enforced (which doesn't make a whole lot of sense as it is a common travel area) or whether there should be greater border control between the UK & Ireland. I think most people are unlikely to agree with the latter.

djpbarry

hurler14a wrote: »

By not keeping records of non-EU nationals coming into the country at our ports and not checking for visas, are the gardai (Department of Justice) facilitating bogus asylum seekers and fraud?

I doubt it. It's certainly not a good reason to abolish the common travel area and inconvenience hundreds of thousands of people every year.

hurler14a wrote: »

If it was documented where people entered Ireland from (UK) as they came on the bus from the UK, it would be much easier to proove this is not the first country outside of their home country they landed in...

Wouldn't they have been required to negotiate UK immigration prior to arriving in Ireland?

southsiderosie

hurler14a wrote: »

Rosslare:Citizens of non-EU nations wouldn't need a visa to enter Ireland even if they were supposed to have one. They could just come in by Rosslare. There was no checking of passports, let alone visas there.

Dublin Port: I never saw any checks whatsoever applied even with non-EU passport holders. I doubt whether the non-EU nationals had visas for Ireland. The garda did not examine the passports. You just held it and within 1 second he had moved on. He had 'checked' the whole bus in 30 seconds.

This is just in your personal experience though. On eight trips between Belfast and Dublin by bus over a two-month period, there were passport spot-checks on two of them, and four Asians were taken off of the bus because they only had UK visas not Irish visas. I've been questioned before at the border because the stamps in my (non-EU) passport suggested that I was country-hopping due to a lack of a long-term visa. So I don't think that you can make a broad claim about how lax Irish immigration is based on anecdotal evidence, because on an individual level, everyone's experiences will be different.

The common travel area means that there aren't going to be strict border controls, but rather spot-checking in high-risk areas. The same is true within the Schengen zone - you aren't required to clear immigration between countries, but you have to be prepared to show a passport with the proper stamps in them if asked.

Finally, Ireland to some extent free-rides off of the UK's visa policies - they screen pretty aggressively at airports. So given UK policy, and the actual numbers of non-EU migrants coming in and out of the UK-IRE travel zones, I think officials are willing to live with some 'slippage' rather than dealing with the hassle of screening everyone who passes between the two countries.

Richard

hurler14a wrote: »

By keeping records of non-EU nationals entering Irish ports, It would help make it clear that any non-EU nationals who came into the country without proper visas for entry into Ireland would have come in by Northern Ireland and questions could be asked of the Northern Ireland authorities.

It would cut down on fraud as it would help to see who these people are and what is their true identity.

I think it should go further. Cooperation and sharing entry info North and South, and also with ports in Great Britain.

If we have a common travel area, information should be common.

Or we could take the lead from this guy...
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/16853

Lapin

djpbarry wrote: »

There are no border controls between the UK & Ireland.......

True.

Yet ironically, All passengers arriving at Dublin Airport, even those coming off domestic flights have to queue at passport control.

A ridiculous set up. :mad:

mikemac1

Have met the gardai on the Belfast Dublin route a few times

And they will take people off it and then to the local station, either Ardree or Dundalk to be questioned.

Main issue is people with valid UK visas but it doesn't give them the right to cross the border.
One Fillipino couple were going to straight to Dublin airport to leave Ireland, Dublin clearly have more international flights then Belfast.
Doesn't matter, taken off the bus, rules are rules

It's all very random, you might never meet the gardai or you might get stopped three days a week
I used to get the bus along that route as a daily commuter

You don't need a passport, driving license is grand and if you've no ID well just tell them your name and where you're going to.
No mistaking my bogger accent :pac:
They focus on the Asians

KINGVictor

hurler14a wrote: »

In March, 2004 I got the National Express bus from the UK to Ireland. On arrival into Dublin Port, we were told to have our passports ready for inspection. Most of the people on the bus were non-Causcasian, the woman behind me had an Angolan passport and the man across from me had an Algerian passport. The garda who boarded the bus had no paperwork with him and spent one second max glancing at each passport. He didn't note the passport numbers of non-EU nationals or names, just waved everyone through. I witnessed this scenario between 15-20 times as I arrived in Ireland on the bus.

Coming into Rosslare from the UK, there was almost never passport control. Anyone could walk in and I rarely saw a garda.

Is this safe?
Why were the gardai not keeping such records?

I disagree with you.

There are regular immigration checks between both countries, I am from a Non-EU country and I have travelled from Ireland to the UK numerous times and on each occassion I have had to produce a valid UK entry visa to the GNIB officers. Interestingly,I have never been screened or asked any questions when I get to the Uk. My reckoning is that they assume I would have been screened by their Irish counterparts and vice versa.

Ireland and the UK have a common travel agreement that allows for UK,Irish and EU nationals with a valid travel document or ID cards to move freely between both countries. Most Non-EU nationals have to produce a valid visa to travel within the common travel area, the obvious exceptions are nationals from countries which have free travel agreements with both the UK and Ireland e.g. US, Japan, Australia, Canada etc.

You stated that an irish Immigration officer told you he was concerned about the lack of effective policing of non-EU nationals coming into the country and that he was instructed to let them in? I can categorically tell you that's Bull*cks. Ireland has a far stricter approach in this regard both in terms of policy and implementation. I know a friend that has lived legally in Ireland for over 5 years and was refused entry into Ireland because he didnt have his GNIB card on him despite the fact he had his passport that was stamped with his residency details, re-entry visa and a finger print check confirmed his residency status, his family had to bring his residence card before he was allowed in.

I will actually reword your thread title to " Irish border controls are quite stringent".

Dannyboy83

Lapin wrote: »

True.
Yet ironically, All passengers arriving at Dublin Airport, even those coming off domestic flights have to queue at passport control.

A ridiculous set up. :mad:

I've never had to queue at passport control in Dublin.
Myself and my partner are always in stitches when we arrive back in Ireland.
She is from Lithuania and we tend to visit her country once or twice per year.
She gets checked going into Lithuania but I practically get interrogated.

Coming back into Dublin, it's a totally different experience.
The guy on the passport desk always has a big smile and just waves everyone through.
I had just assumed they always checked the flight register in advance??
Only time we ever get stopped is when they search our hand luggage for cigarettes, but they search everyone on the plane in these cases, not spot checks.

For the people who seem to think there are no illegal immigrants in Ireland - you're deluding yourselves.
I have a number of Georgian friends who are here on fake Lithuanian passports, but I'm not sure that they'd even be able to catch them if they did stop them anyway. You can fairly easily acquire a fake passport in Warsaw for small money.
You should briefly acquaint yourselves with the sounds of the Lithuanian vs Georgian languages for the craic;).
The only people who ever seem to catch them are revenue.
They get jail for a few weeks, then they usually get some kind of deal where they are allowed to travel between Georgia and Ireland, but no other country - I presume they are sorted out with some type of Visa.

There are also a lot of Algerians and Albanians in Cork, and many of them are here illegally. I wouldn't have any contact with these communities, nor I would have known they were even here only that a friend introduced me. They mind their own business and seem to police their own communities.

I'm sure plenty of you know illegal Irish in America, and know that you basically only come home if your mother dies.

Tea_Bag

Dannyboy83, you do realise you just admitted to knowing quite a serious crime on a public Internet forum?

djpbarry

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

For the people who seem to think there are no illegal immigrants in Ireland...

Who has suggested there are no illegal immigrants in Ireland?

oppenheimer1

JustinDee wrote: »

They don't know.
Fake quotes, wiki-wagging, alarmist tosh with only generalisations to 'justify' and an irrational disdain for anyone who happens to be a of different race or ethnicity is all I'm reading from these people.

Wiki wagging or not, it doesn't change the facts, which is that just because a person is entitled to be in the the UK mean they're entitled to be in Ireland.

Given the open nature of the border, it would make sense for a more unified immigration policy between the two countries. However in practice this would mean that Irelands immigration policy would be dictated by Westminster. Politically this would not be easy.

hurler14a

Thousands of people from all over non-EU nations have just walked into Ireland without any checks. They are from nations like Nigeria, Angola and many other nations.

Do we know who these people are?
What they did do in their own country?
Do they have passports and are these passports legitimate? How is the legitimacy of these passports checked?
Is this safe?

Nodin

hurler14a wrote: »

Thousands of people from all over non-EU nations have just walked into Ireland without any checks. They are from nations like Nigeria, Angola and many other nations.

......

You've some source for this?

djpbarry

hurler14a wrote: »

Thousands of people from all over non-EU nations have just walked into Ireland without any checks.

Prove it.

al28283

hurler14a wrote: »

Thousands of people from all over non-EU nations have just walked into Ireland without any checks. They are from nations like Nigeria, Angola and many other nations.

Do we know who these people are?
What they did do in their own country?
Do they have passports and are these passports legitimate? How is the legitimacy of these passports checked?
Is this safe?

You keep asking the same question over and over, do you have anything else to contribute?

al28283

al28283 wrote: »

You keep asking the same question over and over, do you have anything else to contribute?

I think not, locked