What are the Careers like in Web Design?

DipStick McSwindler

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DaveNoCheese

I too have lots of interest in web design and even thought myself the basics of HTML using www.w3shcools.com. I'm working full time but would like to move into that area. Is it easy and is it worth it?

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

DaveNoCheese

feeney92 wrote: »

currently starting this topic in college this semester, 1st thing our lecturer told us was to visit that site!!

Yea I would def recommend it mate, covers HTML, CSS, JavaScript, XML and many others. I stuck with the HTML and CSS and you do pick it up fairly quickly (and easily).

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

previous user

Trying to look for work in it at the moment, companies are looking for people who can do HTML 5 and CSS 3, php and javascript, theres still work experience with jobbridge in CSS and XHTML, experience to be had I guess.

http://www.jobbridge.ie/

syklops

feeney92 wrote: »

grand thanks!! hopefully now somebody answers the important question, how much will we get paid if we go into that area

Not alot would be my answer. Its quite a cut throat area with alot of competition. Its also quite an easy area to get into and so there are alot of people and therefore a lot of competition. Unless you are truly talented in the area of graphic design and can make your own new images and icons, I am not sure if I would count on web design as a career, because there will always be someone else who will be able to undercut you. And even then, I would go down more graphic design rather than web design.

cormee

It's worth pointing out there's two different types of web designers.

There are the ones who can actually design. By 'design' I mean they can produce a professional looking, usable and aestethically pleasing designs, after following a process of discovery, wireframing, concept(s), html wireframes, followed by the final working site.

These designers follow best-practices, they produce SEO-friendly, accessible sites, using standards-compliant code and the latest technologies, and they take a lot of pride in the quality of their work.

Then there's the other type - someone who knows enough html to patch a page together, and produce a design that looks like it's had every available Photoshop filter applied by Homer's makeup gun.

The first type of designer can make a pretty good living because there is a shortage of people with these skills, the second type will struggle to make a living before they finally realise, five years later, they aren't web designers.

Lantus

agreed on above two posts. creating the structural elements of a website and doing it in a logical and SEO friendly manner are just one aspect.

I realised almost straight away on my web design course that to create a complete website you need presentable graphics and icons and pictures to fill that structural code.

As well as HTML and CSS I'd also read up on colour (not a small subject) as well as being able to use photoshop and other graphical programs to create the elements you need.

Of course you still need an eye for design. For all it's tech its also highly creative which will not suit everyone.

We could all learn how to use a weaving machine or make pottery, but could we produce high quality products with those tools? answer no.

BarackPyjama

feeney92 wrote: »

just wanted to know what are the careers like and the wage as ive been told "there is no money in web design" thanks for any opinions

There's plenty of money in web design. It's a booming, growth industry right now.

DaveNoCheese wrote: »

Is it easy and is it worth it?

No. It's not easy - it takes a lot of hard work and requires serious talent to make a living in the industry. The barrier to entry is zero as you can start learning straight away but in order to get a salaried position, you'll need to really know your stuff.

Freddio

feeney92 wrote: »

grand thanks!! hopefully now somebody answers the important question, how much will we get paid if we go into that area

market contract rate is 250 - 300 euro per day if you are expert in html css javascript and can render designs to html that are standards compliant and look exactley like the designs in all browsers.

Having said that, i'm assuming you want to specialize in design and if you get to the stage where multinational brands use you exclusively .... how long is a piece of string?

Chet Zar

cormee wrote: »

It's worth pointing out there's two different types of web designers.

There are the ones who can actually design. By 'design' I mean they can produce a professional looking, usable and aestethically pleasing designs, after following a process of discovery, wireframing, concept(s), html wireframes, followed by the final working site.

These designers follow best-practices, they produce SEO-friendly, accessible sites, using standards-compliant code and the latest technologies, and they take a lot of pride in the quality of their work.

Then there's the other type - someone who knows enough html to patch a page together, and produce a design that looks like it's had every available Photoshop filter applied by Homer's makeup gun.

The first type of designer can make a pretty good living because there is a shortage of people with these skills, the second type will struggle to make a living before they finally realise, five years later, they aren't web designers.

Homer's makeup gun - legend.

If I had a euro for every web designer's site I've come across on the internet I'd be rolling in it. If I had one for every really top-notch designer I've come across, I'd probably have enough for a roll and a can of something in Spar.

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

Freddio

http://www.ferrari.com

if you had their gig you'ld be doing ok


(doesn't validate though)

smash

I find this thread amusing because

1: There are not a lot of web design jobs out there.
2: There are literally thousands of shít web designers out there.
3: Companies don't pay what they used to.
4: We're coming into the top of another dot com bubble which will burst because.
5: Taking a short course or learning in your spare time does not make you a web designer.
6: web design involves a lot of languages, applications and discipline.

syklops

smash wrote: »

I find this thread amusing because

1: There are not a lot of web design jobs out there.
2: There are literally thousands of shít web designers out there.
3: Companies don't pay what they used to.
4: We're coming into the top of another dot com bubble which will burst because.
5: Taking a short course or learning in your spare time does not make you a web designer.
6: web design involves a lot of languages, applications and discipline.

Tbh it did amuse me a little bit when the OP said:

"... programming and networking are areas that do not appeal to me"

Placebo

You're right about the amount of '****' designers, the freelance market is definitely diluted but these same 'designers' will never get a hired from a company so i guess it levels out.

I recently got approach by a person/company that wanted a site done and he was surprised by my rates and linked me to this god awful freelancer in comparison and how he charged way less.

Problem is undereducated clients

krd

Placebo wrote: »

I recently got approach by a person/company that wanted a site done and he was surprised by my rates and linked me to this god awful freelancer in comparison and how he charged way less.

Then up your rates. Charge what the market can bear. Without going into a very long explanation. Everyone will be better off. And the really awful will be driven out of the market.

I've been doing a little research recently. (I'm not a designer). I've found a few Irish design companies, not freelancers, but companies who have impressive offices and staff. And what they offer, for what they charge is pretty weak. Some stock photos, over a flash template. Zero functionality - with no potential for expansion.

Problem is undereducated clients

They'll get educated. It's taken a massive amount of time for businesses to cop on that their website is as important as their store front or office. A sloppy amateurish job - looks like a sloppy amateurish business.

To have an industry, professionals need to charge pro-rates, and people need to know they have to pay them.

Placebo

My rates are up, the guy was surprised at how high they were.
They may get educated over time or second time around but anyone that comes on boards looking for a website, seems to be coming with a hole in their pocket, looking for a bargain. They dont seem to care about standards or validation, to them: a site on a www address is an A+ website.

p

smash wrote: »

I find this thread amusing because

1: There are not a lot of web design jobs out there.
2: There are literally thousands of shít web designers out there.
3: Companies don't pay what they used to.
4: We're coming into the top of another dot com bubble which will burst because.
5: Taking a short course or learning in your spare time does not make you a web designer.
6: web design involves a lot of languages, applications and discipline.

1. Wrong, there's plenty, it's a healthy market.
2. True, but doesn't matter.
3. Is this still true?
4. False - digital design is a growing area.
5. True True True.
6. Yes to discipline, but no to languages. Some of the most amazing digital designers I know have only basic HTML skills.

Liam Byrne

p wrote: »

smash wrote: »

I find this thread amusing because

1: There are not a lot of web design jobs out there.
2: There are literally thousands of shít web designers out there.
3: Companies don't pay what they used to.
4: We're coming into the top of another dot com bubble which will burst because.
5: Taking a short course or learning in your spare time does not make you a web designer.
6: web design involves a lot of languages, applications and discipline.

1. Wrong, there's plenty, it's a healthy market.
2. True, but doesn't matter.
3. Is this still true?
4. False - digital design is a growing area.
5. True True True.
6. Yes to discipline, but no to languages. Some of the most amazing digital designers I know have only basic HTML skills.

Re #6 - I have been asked to implement some 3rd party designs, almost all of which look really well overall as a concept but many of which don't have the required modularity or flexibility to offer an easily-updated site (backgrounds, scaling, photo orientation, etc)

In addition, some design houses offer free Flash "websites" as part of rebranding and it's a real pain to have to tell someone that it's a complete rebuild if they want proper SEO and CMS updateability and extra pages and/or functionality, with many clients referencing "full screen display" (for example) as a key requirement, just because of Flash's inbuilt auto-scale.

It's easy to say that clients should be more savvy with the limitations and possibilities, but the Flash brigade and the "throw a template together" brigade are muddying the waters, as is Wordpress, so it can indeed be difficult to get clients who know what can and should be done to do it right, and have the proper budget for it.

Not impossible, but difficult.

smash

p wrote: »

1. Wrong, there's plenty, it's a healthy market.
2. True, but doesn't matter.
3. Is this still true?
4. False - digital design is a growing area.
5. True True True.
6. Yes to discipline, but no to languages. Some of the most amazing digital designers I know have only basic HTML skills.

1. It's not, look at the job websites. I also know because the company I work for has been looking to hire.
2. It does matter, especially when companies hire them because they charge very little.
3. the dot com bubble and digital design are two completely separate things. We are reaching another dot com bubble when you look at companies like facebook with an ipo worth 100b and groupon floating for more than they could ever be worth. The major growth industry is in mobile web apps.
5. ---
6. basic HTML skills do not cut it unless you have a team behind you to make a site work. You need to know HTML, CSS, have working knowledge JQuery, JS, XHTML and experience with programming languages so you're not asking a developer to help you every 5 minutes. You also need to know about cross browser compatibility, resolution etc.

And for what it's worth, any designer or company that uses flash for anything other than creating banners or games needs to be shot.

cormee

smash wrote: »

1: There are not a lot of web design jobs out there.
2: There are literally thousands of shít web designers out there.
3: Companies don't pay what they used to.
4: We're coming into the top of another dot com bubble which will burst because.
5: Taking a short course or learning in your spare time does not make you a web designer.
6: web design involves a lot of languages, applications and discipline.

1. Are we talking Web Design or web design? Plenty of other jobs a good web designer can work at - UI design, UX design, accessibility, SEO - there's plenty of growth in these areas, and top prices are paid for people with quantifiable skills in these fields - all of which have massive crossover with web design.
2. Lots. And lots.
3. Lots of companies see a good designer as an investment, not an expense. True the smaller non-IT companies, with a limited budget, will go for some clown who asks for €24k and blinds them with Alexa stats. However companies, mostly IT, who understand the web and take their presence seriously, have a proper web department and presence, will pay for a good designer.
4. There may be a social media bubble ahead but suggesting it's going to take down .com's is a bit much. Lumping the likes of Amazon and Google into the same basket as Facebook and Groupon would be silly, and tech investors are a lot more savvy than that.
There's massive growth in areas like web apps/SaaS and cloud computing. Also in this recession a lot of medium sized organisations are realising their best RoI will come from the web and are investing in it. My wife works for one of the bigger web design agencies in Dublin, they've never been busier and are constantly recruiting.
5. True
6. A web designer probably needs more of an understanding of the technology he/she is designing for, than just the basics, especially if they have a say in UX matters

smash

cormee wrote: »

1. Are we talking Web Design or web design? Plenty of other jobs a good web designer can work at - UI design, UX design, accessibility, SEO - there's plenty of growth in these areas, and top prices are paid for people with quantifiable skills in these fields - all of which have massive crossover with web design.
2. Lots. And lots.
3. Lots of companies see a good designer as an investment, not an expense. True the smaller non-IT companies, with a limited budget, will go for some clown who asks for €24k and blinds them with Alexa stats. However companies, mostly IT, who understand the web and take their presence seriously, have a proper web department and presence, will pay for a good designer.

There may be a social media bubble ahead but suggesting it's going to take down .com's is a bit much. Lumping the likes of Amazon and Google into the same basket as Facebook and Groupon would be silly, and tech investors are a lot more savvy than that.
5. There's massive growth in areas like web apps/SaaS and cloud computing. Also in this recession a lot of medium sized organisations are realising their best RoI will come from the web and are investing in it. My wife works for one of the bigger web design agencies in Dublin, they've never been busier and are constantly recruiting.
6. True
6. A web designer probably needs more of an understanding of the technology he/she is designing for, than just the basics, especially if they have a say in UX matters

1. I'm talking about strictly web desing, not spring off careers. And in order to get into these spring offs, you need a solid understanding of design to begin with.
2. --
3. They do, but at the same time the companies that invest in their staff in this way will have a close knit competent team so they will not be continuously recriuting.
4. I'm not lumping Amazon and Google in with the social media crowd. But I still do believe that there is a bubble, and yes it revolves around social media. I still can't believe there are companies out there charging thousands for "social media".
5. I know of a few design agencies that are continuously recruiting, that leads me to believe that their staff turn over is high or that they mostly employ contractors.

adm

off topic but: I remember the google ipo when it was valued at around 25b and i thought that was absolutely crazy at the time. i see lots of scope for facebook making tons of money with their creepy ads!

BarackPyjama

The biggest issue in the web industry in Ireland is that companies and brands in this country don't 'get' good design. They don't know it when they see it, they don't appreciate its value and they're happy to pay for rubbish. This is why there are so few 'artisan' agencies in the country who are producing world class work. Because they would have to compete with the growing number of traditional ad agencies and chancers who have jumped on the digital bandwagon and who put all their resources into business/client acquisition and very little into creating quality product.

It's a shame that there are few, if any, F-i's, North Kingdoms or Happy Cogs in this country and that the real talent is going unnoticed or going under.

smash

BarackPyjama wrote: »

The biggest issue in the web industry in Ireland is that companies and brands in this country don't 'get' good design.

I think the biggest problem is that "design agencies" pop up all over the place but rarely have their own product so they have nothing to fall back on for income when things are slow.

cormee

smash wrote: »

I think the biggest problem is that "design agencies" pop up all over the place but rarely have their own product so they have nothing to fall back on for income when things are slow.

They're design agencies, not software houses. Their design skills should be their product.

BarackPyjama wrote: »

The biggest issue in the web industry in Ireland is that companies and brands in this country don't 'get' good design.

It's not just an Irish web thing, it's an Irish thing. I worked as an Industrial/Product Designer before moving to the www. The phrase 'design it so it's cheap and cheerful' is so deeply ingrained in my mind, I'll probably be hearing it on my deathbed.

smash

cormee wrote: »

They're design agencies, not software houses. Their design skills are their product.



It's not just an Irish web thing, it's an Irish thing. I worked as an Industrial/Product Designer before moving to the www. The phrase 'design it so it's cheap and cheerful' is so deeply ingrained in my mind, I'll probably be hearing it on my deathbed.

Then why do they outsource most of their work? The amount of work we do here where I work on behalf of agencies is unreal.

cormee

smash wrote: »

Then why do they outsource most of their work? The amount of work we do here where I work on behalf of agencies is unreal.

Not sure I understand the question. How does it relate to them having their own product?

smash

cormee wrote: »

Not sure I understand the question. How does it relate to them having their own product?

I was talking about web agencies. It was only when you brought up design agencies that I brought up the outsourcing.

WIZE

Just posting to keep track of this

cormee

smash wrote: »

I was talking about web agencies. It was only when you brought up design agencies that I brought up the outsourcing.

No, you said design agenices:

smash wrote: »

I think the biggest problem is that "design agencies" pop up all over the place but rarely have their own product so they have nothing to fall back on for income when things are slow.

smash

cormee wrote: »

No, you said design agenices:

You realise the title of the thread is about "web design", so in this context a reference to a design agency, relates to a web design agency.

Scram

i used to think id like to be a webdesigner but its far too complex these days. You need to know so much to be employable, and theres loads of languages to get a grip off;

• HTML
• HTML 5
• CSS
• javascript
• Ajax
• Jquery
• php
• asp
• JSP
• xml

To sit down and design a good looking web page is not easy, sure anyone can get a template but to actually design it is a different story.

Its still an area i like but it just seem worth it.

Goodshape

Biggest problem, as everyone seems to agree, is that anyone can make a website. Means we're flooded with "web designers" who couldn't design a tesco gift card.

But in my experience there's another side to it too. Good design, UX and UI is more important than ever and those guys are hard to find!

If you're prepared to be good at your job, prove that you're good at it, and fight off the swarms of chancers who'll try to undercut you with a weekend's FAS course worth of skillz, there's a good carrier to be had. Otherwise it'll be a struggle.

cormee

smash wrote: »

You realise the title of the thread is about "web design", so in this context a reference to a design agency, relates to a web design agency.

I do, thank you.

Let's recap:

You said

"I think the biggest problem is that "design agencies" pop up all over the place but rarely have their own product so they have nothing to fall back on for income when things are slow."

I said:

"Web design agencies design skills are their product, they shouldn't need to have a product. "

To which you replied

"Then why do they outsource most of their work? The amount of work we do here where I work on behalf of agencies is unreal."

...so I said "Not sure I understand the question. How does it relate to them having their own product? "

So, in summary, how does the amount of work you do for web design agencies relate to their having, or not having, a 'product.'

Are you saying they outsource their design work so they don't have a product (design skills)?

smash

Scram, you're confusing designers with developers there. I understand you probably got that coding list from recruitment ads, but the bottom line is that the agencies and companies that place jobs looking for those skills generally just grab buzz words and don't have a clue.

cormee wrote: »

I said:

"Web design agencies design skills are their product, they shouldn't need to have a product. "

No you didn't. You said "They're design agencies, not software houses. Their design skills are their product." I have it quoted above. You weren't referring to web design agencies.

This is a silly argument.

cormee

Scram wrote: »

i used to think id like to be a webdesigner but its far too complex these days. You need to know so much to be employable, and theres loads of languages to get a grip off;

• HTML
• HTML 5
• CSS
• javascript
• Ajax
• Jquery
• php
• asp
• JSP
• xml

To sit down and design a good looking web page is not easy, sure anyone can get a template but to actually design it is a different story.

Its still an area i like but it just seem worth it.

If you had design skills and were very good at any two, or three, of the above you'd be very employable.

Goodshape

Scram wrote: »

theres loads of languages to get a grip off

Items in that list are too closely related to be called 'different languages', tbh.

One: HTML, HTML 5, CSS
Two: Javascript, AJAX, jQuery

And the rest (php, asp, etc.) are unrelated to design / front end coding.

I also think there's room to make a distinction between designer and front-end developer. Often they're one and the same but that needn't be the case -- if you can excel at whichever you choose.

A strong understanding of the capabilities, limitations and requirements of the intended platform (i.e. web, html, css and JS) is definitely required but in my ideal team, designer and front-end coder needn't be the same person. They're different disciplines.

cormee

smash wrote: »

Scram, you're confusing designers with developers there. I understand you probably got that coding list from recruitment ads, but the bottom line is that the agencies and companies that place jobs looking for those skills generally just grab buzz words and don't have a clue.


No you didn't. You said "They're design agencies, not software houses. Their design skills are their product." I have it quoted above. You weren't referring to web design agencies.

What are you talikng about? The two quotes mean the exact same thing -Their design skills are their product.

And I still don't understand your reply:

"Then why do they outsource most of their work? The amount of work we do here where I work on behalf of agencies is unreal. "

smash

cormee wrote: »

If you had design skills and were very good at any two, or three, of the above you'd be very employable.

Depending on what you're willing to work for.

I constantly get emails regarding positions from recruitment agencies and constantly tell them no thanks because of the salary levels on offer.

There's literally hundreds of positions available for juniors though.

Goodshape wrote: »

I also think there's room to make a distinction between designer and front-end developer. Often they're one and the same but that needn't be the case -- if you can excel at whichever you choose.

If you're great a designing layouts in Photoshop but can't code them up then you're better off going into print design because it doesn't cut it in fast paced environments.

cormee wrote: »

What are you talikng about? The two quotes mean the exact same thing -Their design skills are their product.

Which I stated, needs to be backed up by a real revenue producing product for when work begins to dry up. That's why so many of them close down.

cormee wrote: »

And I still don't understand your reply:

"Then why do they outsource most of their work? The amount of work we do here where I work on behalf of agencies is unreal. "

I work for a web design agency. We consistently do work for "general design agencies" because they don't have the skills.

Placebo

HTML
HTML 5
CSS
javascript
Ajax
Jquery
php
asp
JSP
xml

Those are all essentially the same, or in poetry terms 'run on lines'
You will either know PHP or ASP/JSP,
Theres nothing really to know about XML, for lowlevel webdesign/storage anyway.

Only thing complex would be using stuff like modenizer/css3 pie to compensate for the time till HTML5 becomes a standard. And using -moz -webkit prefixes.

smash

Placebo wrote: »

Only thing complex would be using stuff like modenizer/css3 pie to compensate for the time till HTML5 becomes a standard. And using -moz -webkit prefixes.

But even when HTML5 becomes a standard (When Microsoft get off their lazy ass and accept it), you'll still need CSS3.

And for what it's worth, I'd lump HTML5 in with JS going forward. It's become a lot more complex in a way.

Cork24

previous user wrote: »

Trying to look for work in it at the moment, companies are looking for people who can do HTML 5 and CSS 3, php and javascript, theres still work experience with jobbridge in CSS and XHTML, experience to be had I guess.

http://www.jobbridge.ie/

why would Companies want to move into HTML 5 ?

Sorry mate but after studying HTML 5 it will be atlest 2 years before we will get html 5 in our Websites.. HTML 5 at the moment is fully working in Opera and thats about it FireFox IE are 60% their were as Opera are 97% their with HTML 5,

With if compaines start using HTML 5 it will cut alot of people off just like Sites using Flash waste of time, CSS 3 is the same,

If your looking at Web Design, look at the likes of editing photos in Photoshop; Ajax mySql etc not just HTML and CSS/JS will get you a job.

what makes a good Web Developer is cross platform development..

smash

Cork24 wrote: »

why would Companies want to move into HTML 5 ?

For mobile development.

Cork24 wrote: »

Ajax mySql etc

Not a web design job.

cormee

smash wrote: »

Which I stated, needs to be backed up by a real revenue producing product for when work begins to dry up. That's why so many of them close down.

...and we're back to my original reply - their design skills are their products, they are (web) design agencies, not software houses. No need to reply, this could go on all week.

smash

cormee wrote: »

...and we're back to my original reply - their design skills are their products, they are (web) design agencies, not software houses.

And were back to my point about it not being enough and that's why so many of them close down.

Goodshape

smash wrote: »

If you're great a designing layouts in Photoshop but can't code them up then you're better off going into print design because it doesn't cut it in fast paced environments.

If your idea of designing an interactive online user experience is "layouts in Photoshop" then yeah, you'd better have some additional skills.

cormee

Cork24 wrote: »

With if compaines start using HTML 5 it will cut alot of people off just like Sites using Flash waste of time, CSS 3 is the same,

Design inclusively, make sure your design degrades gracefully, and functionality isn't lost on older browsers, you should be doing that anyway.

smash

Goodshape wrote: »

If your idea of designing an interactive online user experience is "layouts in Photoshop" then yeah, you'd better have some additional skills.

Well if you're a designer and not a front-end developer then there's not much else to do.