Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
''Exceptional Needs'' Payments from Community Welfare Officer
-
03-02-2012 1:14am#1
Comments
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Surely the likes of clothing can be obtained for nothing second hand from charities, rather than bought new at taxpayers' expense?
Yes, they can. And children grow and are active and messy so clothes, regardless of where they are bought, need to be constantly replaced. Even if the clothes cost no more then a fiver for a complete outfit - how many outfits does the average toddler for example need for a week? One? Two? Three?
Lets look at a fairly 'average' family (not on SW BTW):
My granddaughter is 5 1/2 - she has a school uniform and tracksuit plus she needs clothes to change in to when she gets home. As she is extremely neat and tidy she could wear the same after school clothes 2 days in a row - so lets say she 'needs' uniform/tracksuit plus 4 outfits plus knickers and vests - (should underware be bought in charity shops also?:eek:). She is growing, but not shooting up, so her clothes fit her for about 3 months before they need replacing. So at a very conservative fiver per outfit, changing her clothes every 2 days and not allowing for her to get 'dirty' that's 20 euro every 3 months for clothes not including underware or factoring in school holidays when a clean outfit would be needed every day.
Her 2 year old brother is a pig pen who wipes everything on his clothes, is a fast growing active lad and still wears nappies. He also has a huge appetite. He needs either 2 outfits a day or a constantly going washing machine :rolleyes:) which he grows out of within a month (currently wearing 'aged 4' clothes) and no - he's not fat, he's tall. So his basic clothing costs per month at our charity shop fiver an outfit is between 25-50 per month - or 30 plus increased electricity costs to pay for the clothes washing.
Plus - has Ireland now come to the point where the children of the unemployed should not be allowed any new clothes? Not even from Pennies?
0 -
Advertisement
-
-
-
Bannasidhe wrote: »Yes, they can. And children grow and are active and messy so clothes, regardless of where they are bought, need to be constantly replaced. Even if the clothes cost no more then a fiver for a complete outfit - how many outfits does the average toddler for example need for a week? One? Two? Three?
Lets look at a fairly 'average' family (not on SW BTW):
My granddaughter is 5 1/2 - she has a school uniform and tracksuit plus she needs clothes to change in to when she gets home. As she is extremely neat and tidy she could wear the same after school clothes 2 days in a row - so lets say she 'needs' uniform/tracksuit plus 4 outfits plus knickers and vests - (should underware be bought in charity shops also?:eek:). She is growing, but not shooting up, so her clothes fit her for about 3 months before they need replacing. So at a very conservative fiver per outfit, changing her clothes every 2 days and not allowing for her to get 'dirty' that's 20 euro every 3 months for clothes not including underware or factoring in school holidays when a clean outfit would be needed every day.
Her 2 year old brother is a pig pen who wipes everything on his clothes, is a fast growing active lad and still wears nappies. He also has a huge appetite. He needs either 2 outfits a day or a constantly going washing machine :rolleyes:) which he grows out of within a month (currently wearing 'aged 4' clothes) and no - he's not fat, he's tall. So his basic clothing costs per month at our charity shop fiver an outfit is between 25-50 per month - or 30 plus increased electricity costs to pay for the clothes washing.
Plus - has Ireland now come to the point where the children of the unemployed should not be allowed any new clothes? Not even from Pennies?
I have had three children and about 20 nieces and nephews. All of them have worn hand-me-downs. We are all used to carting bages of clothese from one house to another. Some of them grew out of clothes within three months but not every three months and only out of the hand-me-downs because we always bought a size bigger when buying new clothes, amazing what a few safety pins can do with children's clothes. If your five and a half-year old granddaughter is wearing age six clothes and grows out of them every three months, by the time she is seven and a half she will be wearing age 14 clothes. (7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14). That is clearly not possible and even if true, she won't grow out of clothes for many years after that.0 -
-
The exchange of comments arose because I made a statement that our social welfare system was the best in the world and that nobody could produce a comparison from a reputable international organisation to show differently. I was asked to justify my statement which I did.
Now you are trying to move the goalposts when really, when it comes to figures, I wish someone would provide a link to anything that shows our social welfare system is anything other than very generous.
It is generous in some ways - and penny pinching in others. The provision of child benefit to every child in the country (and some who arn't) regardless of the parent's income is extremely generous.
The provision of medical health cards to pensioners over 70 whose income is less the 700 (single)/1400 (couple) pw gross is generous.
29.80 per dependent child to be supplemented by CB which wealthy people enjoy as absolutely disposable income is penny pinching.
However, to compare 'rules' on Lone Parent payments from different countries without also comparing factors like cost/provision of childcare is not to compare like for like. Pointing this out is not moving goalposts (what is the obsession with bloody goalposts and their location on this site?!?!?) it is saying you are not necessarily comparing apples and apples (or oranges and oranges for that matter
)
http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?langId=en&catId=89&newsId=404There is a direct link between childcare provision and access for parents to paid employment. Across the EU, more than 6 million women aged 25-49 say they are forced into not working, or can only work part-time, because of their family responsibilities. For more than a quarter of them, lack of childcare facilities – or their cost – is the main problem. Access to good quality, affordable childcare operating at hours to suit parents and children is thus key to facilitating women's access to the labour market.
Allowing parents to work can also help avoid in-work poverty and reduce poverty in single-parent households, which suffer a much higher poverty rate (32%) than that for all households with a child (17%).
BTW - here is a comparison of percentage of income spent on childcare:
In Ireland children are 'entitled' to 1 year 'free' pre-school - in reality this consists of 3 1/2 per day during school term-time- either morning or afternoon. So a lone parent availing of this largesse would either be limited to 3 hours work per day or need to find not only childcare but some one willing to drop off/ collect the child. It seems as if this provision is about to be cut -http://www.mychildcare.ie/scrap_ecce.asp
Childcare cost vary greatly but still require a base level of income just to allow the parent to go to work
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0211/1224289523334.htmlFor full-time care for a baby aged six months, the average price across all regions was €191 per week. At €155 per week, the cheapest childcare for this arrangement was in Waterford and Sligo while the highest weekly rate was €233 in Swords, Co Dublin...
Average prices for full-time care for a toddler ranged from €145 in Sligo to €220 in Dublin 6 and 6W. The largest differential in the same region was found in Cork where the cost of full-time care for a toddler ranged from €170 to €235 per week, a difference of 35 per cent per week. Letterkenny recorded the smallest variation with prices ranging from €155 to €165 per week, a difference of just 6 per cent.
The average price across all areas for care covering three days a week for a toddler aged 28 months was €126 per week. Between areas, average prices ranged from €97 in Sligo to €165 in Dublin 6 and 6W, a difference of 70 per cent...0 -
The exchange of comments arose because I made a statement that our social welfare system was the best in the world and that nobody could produce a comparison from a reputable international organisation to show differently. I was asked to justify my statement which I did.
Now you are trying to move the goalposts when really, when it comes to figures, I wish someone would provide a link to anything that shows our social welfare system is anything other than very generous.
I suspect Godge,that many many people are just refusing to accept the reality of their needs being met by an unseen,ever compliant official entity as the DSP has become.
Our Social Support systems are indeed comparable on a stand alone basis with most European and perhaps even Worldwide systems.
Where our Social Welfare has been particularly above par is in the sheer spread of its benefits,particularly to claimants with little or no contributory history.
This nutty,singluarly Irish concept,is perhaps best manifested in the sheer scale of befuddlement which surrounds a recent life-long working person as they first enter the Social Welfare arena.
Here,they find that their ignorance of the system can accutely disenfranchise them from accessing the benefits they have already paid for,whilst they can only stare on disbelief as Long-Termers enthusiastically work the thing to exhaustion.
This continual supping from a well which has a dramatically falling rate of replenishment can only have one result-The Well Runs DRY.
This recession/depression is only getting started in terms of the changes which dear old Ireland will see,and it's not going to be easy
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
0 -
Advertisement
-
-
Bannasidhe wrote: »It is generous in some ways - and penny pinching in others. The provision of child benefit to every child in the country (and some who arn't) regardless of the parent's income is extremely generous.
The provision of medical health cards to pensioners over 70 whose income is less the 700 (single)/1400 (couple) pw gross is generous.
29.80 per dependent child to be supplemented by CB which wealthy people enjoy as absolutely disposable income is penny pinching.
However, to compare 'rules' on Lone Parent payments from different countries without also comparing factors like cost/provision of childcare is not to compare like for like. Pointing this out is not moving goalposts (what is the obsession with bloody goalposts and their location on this site?!?!?) it is saying you are not necessarily comparing apples and apples (or oranges and oranges for that matter)
http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?langId=en&catId=89&newsId=404
BTW - here is a comparison of percentage of income spent on childcare:
In Ireland children are 'entitled' to 1 year 'free' pre-school - in reality this consists of 3 1/2 per day during school term-time- either morning or afternoon. So a lone parent availing of this largesse would either be limited to 3 hours work per day or need to find not only childcare but some one willing to drop off/ collect the child. It seems as if this provision is about to be cut -http://www.mychildcare.ie/scrap_ecce.asp
Childcare cost vary greatly but still require a base level of income just to allow the parent to go to work
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0211/1224289523334.html
Perhaps I'm wrong,but all I'm sensing here is another "Off wit their Heads" diatribe against Rich Folks having access to Childrens Allowance.
This is usually put forward as some magic formula which will suddenly see the Po' folks get their "entitlements" if only the State will cut the wealthy elite adrift...if only...:o
The shake-down required to acheive this desired result would see a significant number of employed,contributing class parents losing their entltlement to Childrens Allowance.
The reality is that Ireland is not dripping with Micheal O Leary's,Denis Desmonds,MJ Smurfits,Pat Kennys et al.....this grouping remains miniscule in the greater scheme of DSP payment recipients,so small that I would suggest it would cost more to administer their removal from the system than could be saved as a result.
Whilst that particular EU report is nicely structured and in favour of good positive stuff,it's another issue how the aspirations can be funded in the context of a bankrupt member state,or even of the Union itself ?
For me the most apposite comment in the report is at the beginning.....Finally, against the background of the current demographic slowdown in Europe, provision of adequate childcare is an incentive to plan a family. Those Member States with the highest birth rates are also those which have done most to facilitate work-life balance for parents and which have a high rate of female employment. Although there has been some progress, a lot still needs to be done to achieve satisfactory levels of childcare provision, particularly for children under three.Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
0 -
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
Bannasidhe wrote: »It is generous in some ways - and penny pinching in others. The provision of child benefit to every child in the country (and some who arn't) regardless of the parent's income is extremely generous.
The provision of medical health cards to pensioners over 70 whose income is less the 700 (single)/1400 (couple) pw gross is generous.
29.80 per dependent child to be supplemented by CB which wealthy people enjoy as absolutely disposable income is penny pinching.
However, to compare 'rules' on Lone Parent payments from different countries without also comparing factors like cost/provision of childcare is not to compare like for like. Pointing this out is not moving goalposts (what is the obsession with bloody goalposts and their location on this site?!?!?) it is saying you are not necessarily comparing apples and apples (or oranges and oranges for that matter)
http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?langId=en&catId=89&newsId=404
BTW - here is a comparison of percentage of income spent on childcare:
In Ireland children are 'entitled' to 1 year 'free' pre-school - in reality this consists of 3 1/2 per day during school term-time- either morning or afternoon. So a lone parent availing of this largesse would either be limited to 3 hours work per day or need to find not only childcare but some one willing to drop off/ collect the child. It seems as if this provision is about to be cut -http://www.mychildcare.ie/scrap_ecce.asp
Childcare cost vary greatly but still require a base level of income just to allow the parent to go to work
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0211/1224289523334.html
The information you provide is a strong argument for reducing the age at which OPS is provided down to European levels (somewhere between 3 and 5) from age 14 in Ireland at present and using some of the money saved to subsidies childcare for those at work. Seems like a good idea. It addresses the point you quoted which said:
"There is a direct link between childcare provision and access for parents to paid employment. Across the EU, more than 6 million women aged 25-49 say they are forced into not working, or can only work part-time, because of their family responsibilities. For more than a quarter of them, lack of childcare facilities – or their cost – is the main problem. Access to good quality, affordable childcare operating at hours to suit parents and children is thus key to facilitating women's access to the labour market"
The rest of the money saved could be used to cut the budget deficit.0 -
-
-
-
Bannasidhe wrote: »FFS - nobody is saying children grow continually - bit toddlers do grow quickly!!! It was an illustration based on the two children I see every week, and the amount of clothes they need based on their current need. Honestly is quibbling about children's growth rates the best response you can come up with.
My grandchildren do not need State help to cloth them - other's are not so fortunate.
I'm middle class, my son wore 2nd hand clothes, I never claimed a penny from the State for him bar child benefit - which back in the 80s was not at the levels it is now.
I am saying the way the system is set up - particularly as regards children - it pushes people into having to claim exceptional need payments as the amount of provision for children in terms of the weekly rate is not sufficient to meet basic needs. I am advocating increasing the weekly rate and severely reducing the categories for which exceptional payments - and abolishing things such as clothing allowances - are paid. I am also questioning why the whole thing doesn't come under the remit of one department only - not spread out necessitating at least 2 sets of administrators, paper work etc.
Would you care to address those points or do you want to continue on the red herring of children's growth patterns?
I didn't introduce the red herring of children's growth patterns, you did!!?! You used it to justify social welfare recipients needing money to pay for clothes every three months so you were saying that children grow continuously! Read your own posts.
As for debating the main points - see below from two pages ago where I set out the full information regarding payments to a couple on social welfare with one teenager and show that the amount they get - €164 - is greater than the amount - €120 - you claimed in a previous post that they needed.
The €29.80 is a complete red herring as it only applies in a family where one parent is working. In other families, where both parents are not working, FIS makes up a big difference.Child Benefit is €140 per month. Dividing by four gives €35 per week. Adding back to €29.80 gives €64.80 per week. Yes, I could feed and clothe a teenager for €64.80 per week. School uniform and books are taken care of by the back-to-school allowance (another of the supplementary welfare allowances). Now, the child would not be wearing Abercrombie and Finch or sporting the latest iphone but I know many people on low wages supporting teenage children who would be overjoyed if they could say they had €64.80 a week to feed and clothe the child.
You also need to remember that say, if you were a family with one teenage child, both parents on social welfare (one JSB plus dependent adult plus dependent child), that you would be eligible for another €98.04 per week in terms of family income supplement, a figure that goes up by another €57.60 for the second child and €60.60 for the third child.
So when you add the child dependent allowance to the child benefit and the family income supplement, the family has €162.84 per week for that teenage son. I think that is a lot more than the €29.80 you mention. It is certainly more than many working people have to spend on their teenage children.
P.S. hadn't seen your second post that put the cost of raising a child at €120.19 per week. Given that we are handing over at least €162.84 per week in various social welfare payments (not counting communion payments, back-to-school payments and other emergency payments) according to your figure of €120.19, there is scope for a cutback of at least €40 per week in F.I.S. and/or child benefit.0 -
I didn't introduce the red herring of children's growth patterns, you did!!?! You used it to justify social welfare recipients needing money to pay for clothes every three months so you were saying that children grow continuously! Read your own posts.
As for debating the main points - see below from two pages ago where I set out the full information regarding payments to a couple on social welfare with one teenager and show that the amount they get - €164 - is greater than the amount - €120 - you claimed in a previous post that they needed.
The €29.80 is a complete red herring as it only applies in a family where one parent is working. In other families, where both parents are not working, FIS makes up a big difference.
You are incorrect.
FIS is a mechanism to supplement income when at least one parent is working but that income falls below a certain level. If both parents are unemployed FIS is not applicable.
Family Income Supplement (FIS) is a weekly tax-free payment available to employees with children. It gives extra financial support to people on low pay. You cannot qualify for FIS if you are only self-employed - you must be an employee to qualify.
You must have at least one child who normally lives with you or is financially supported by you. Your child must be under 18 years of age or between 18 and 22 years of age and in full-time education.
To qualify for FIS, your net average weekly family income must be below a certain amount for your family size. The FIS you receive is 60% of the difference between your net family income and the income limit which applies to your family. For more information about net family income see ‘Rates’ below.
FIS income limits in 2012:
If you have: And your weekly family income is less than:
One child €506
Two children €602
Three children €703
Four children €824
Five children €950
Six children €1,066
Seven children €1,202
Eight children €1,298
You cannot get FIS if you are getting one of the following social welfare payments:
Jobseeker's Benefit or Jobseeker's Allowance
State Pension (Transition), or Pre-Retirement Allowance
If your spouse, civil partner or cohabitant is getting one of these payments, you can qualify for FIS. However, their social welfare payment will be assessed as income for FIS purposes. If you qualify for FIS they will no longer receive a payment for you and any Increase for a Qualified Child will be affected.
For those completely dependent on SW for their income 29.80 is not a red herring - it is the weekly rate payable per child.
One Parent Family - adult rate 188. Child rate 29.80.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/social_welfare_payments_to_families_and_children/one_parent_family_payment.html#l62fd2
Jobseeker Allowance rates from January 2012
Maximum rate for people aged 25 or over
New and existing claimants
Personal rate Increase for a qualified adult Increase for a qualified child
€188 €124.80 €29.80
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_allowance.html#l62fd20 -
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
![[Jackass]](https://w3.vanillicon.com/v2/3178d191648ad5d2fb7722b96c5c616c.svg)
Advertisement