NCT fail with 3 months remaining on cert

Evolving

The NCT is up on my 97 car in the middle of May this year, but I believe I can have it tested up to 3 months earlier, in the middle of February. However, if it was to fail this early NCT in February, is the original date of expiry of the cert, i.e. mid-May, still valid?

Henry Ford III

Are you serious?

CiniO

Evolving wrote: »

The NCT is up on my 97 car in the middle of May this year, but I believe I can have it tested up to 3 months earlier, in the middle of February. However, if it was to fail this early NCT in February, is the original date of expiry of the cert, i.e. mid-May, still valid?

Yes, it is still valid.
But remember if it's some major fault they can issue a cert stating that car is dangerous and must not be driven, so you will have to tow it to the garage to fix it.

Fizman

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Are you serious?

I think that's a valid enough question if I'm honest.

stimpson

You still only have 28 days to get a retest. Longer than that and you need to do a full retest.

Evolving

It`s a funny question I`ll admit, but it`s because I`ll be doing my driving test in it at the start of March so need it to have a valid NCT cert then, and I might not have time to get any NCT faults fixed beforehand. The major exception being serious faults that make it unroadworthy.

CiniO

Evolving wrote: »

It`s a funny question I`ll admit, but it`s because I`ll be doing my driving test in it at the start of March so need it to have a valid NCT cert then, and I might not have time to get any NCT faults fixed beforehand. The major exception being serious faults that make it unroadworthy.

Then just go for NCT as you planned.
If it fails on something minor, you still have your nct disc valid until May, and you can do your driving test in it.

Gophur

The original NCT will still be valid.

People are mistaken when they consider an NCT cert the same as a certificate of road-worthiness, which it is not.

You are obliged to maintain your car is a road-worthy condition at all times, whether or not you have a current NCT certificate. If you are doing your test, your car must be road-worthy.

Henry Ford III

Gophur wrote: »

The original NCT will still be valid.

People are mistaken when they consider an NCT cert the same as a certificate of road-worthiness, which it is not.

You are obliged to maintain your car is a road-worthy condition at all times, whether or not you have a current NCT certificate. If you are doing your test, your car must be road-worthy.

This post set me wondering what exactly is the NCT supposed to do?

This is from the NCT site.....

"Applus+ Car Testing Service Ltd, is responsible for the operation of the compulsory vehicle inspection programme in Ireland. This programme which falls under the directive 2009/40/EC is in its twelfth year of operation and its primary aim is to improve road safety and enhance environmental protection by reducing harmful vehicles emissions in Ireland.

Ireland over the last number of years has witnessed a larger reliance on the use of mechanically propelled vehicles resulting in an increase in the number of vehicles on the road. The safety of vehicles has never been more in question in Ireland as it is today; therefore by bringing your vehicle in for its National Car Test we can provide a comprehensive diagnosis of the condition of your vehicle on the day of the test.

So it's primarily safety and emissions. Wouldn't it be entirely reasonable that a test failure would indicate a car that's either unsafe, or a heavy polluter?

In addition it seems to me at least that any existing balance of a 2 yearticket would be superceeded by an early renewal, where a car fails.

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

This post set me wondering what exactly is the NCT supposed to do?

This is from the NCT site.....

"Applus+ Car Testing Service Ltd, is responsible for the operation of the compulsory vehicle inspection programme in Ireland. This programme which falls under the directive 2009/40/EC is in its twelfth year of operation and its primary aim is to improve road safety and enhance environmental protection by reducing harmful vehicles emissions in Ireland.

Ireland over the last number of years has witnessed a larger reliance on the use of mechanically propelled vehicles resulting in an increase in the number of vehicles on the road. The safety of vehicles has never been more in question in Ireland as it is today; therefore by bringing your vehicle in for its National Car Test we can provide a comprehensive diagnosis of the condition of your vehicle on the day of the test.

So it's primarily safety and emissions. Wouldn't it be entirely reasonable that a test failure would indicate a car that's either unsafe, or a heavy polluter?

In addition it seems to me at least that any existing balance of a 2 yearticket would be superceeded by an early renewal, where a car fails.

I think you are mistaking an aim of nct certificate and disc.

For safety (and ecology) reasons they decided that vehicles will need to be checked every year or two.
NCT cert or disc doesn't prove vehicle is roadworthy.
It just proves it was roadworthy during the test.

And it's validity date is pretty much only paperwork, to indicate before when next test has to be done.

Therefore failing NCT in February, doesn't change anything with previous disc which was issued until May. This disc just means, that vehicle must pass NCT before May if owner wants to keep his vehicle road legal.

The same if you get stopped by gardai and they form an oppinion your vehicle is not roadworthy, they might tow the vehicle, but they can't confiscate your NCT cert and disc.

Gurgle

This:

Evolving wrote: »

is the original date of expiry of the cert, i.e. mid-May, still valid?

is a damn fine question. I suggest you forward it to the Dept of Environment, and please let us know the answer.

This:

Applus+ wrote:

primary aim is to improve road safety and enhance environmental protection

is bull. This so-called safety & environmental testing was handed over to a corporate monopoly by the most corrupt government we've ever had.

CiniO

Gurgle wrote: »

This: is a damn fine question. I suggest you forward it to the Dept of Environment, and please let us know the answer.

What's the point in asking Dept of Environment?

First of all how would you imagine this happening?
Would they confiscate your current disc and cert? - obviously they can't do that.

Henry Ford III

My view is a fail on an earlier than required NCT would probably invalidate the existing cert/disc.

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

My view is a fail on an earlier than required NCT would probably invalidate the existing cert/disc.

How would the owner/driver know that a nct disc is invalid then?


Law seems to be telling us something opposite:

Validity of test certificate


11. (1) Subject to paragraph (2), a test certificate ceases to be in force on that test due date which occurs after the certificate to which it relates was issued.


(2) A test certificate which is issued—


(a) not more than 180 days before the first test due date, or


(b) not more than 90 days before a test due date other than the first test due date,


continues in force until the subsequent test due date.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/si/0567.html


As you can see test certificate is valid until next due date (which in our example is in May). There is nothing mentioned it ceases to be valid on the date of failed test, if it is done before due date.

Beside, I did try it myself few months ago.
Car was due NCT end of November, and I presented it for test at end of August.
It failed, but my previous certificate and disc were still valid until end of November.

Henry Ford III

Lets run a parallel here.

Your job requires a biannual medical. 1 year after your last medical you fall ill, and the doctor says you are not fit to work. In those circumstances the newer evidence supercedes the older.

The NCT failure should be indicative that the car isn't roadworthy.

puppetmaster

Henry Ford III wrote: »

My view is a fail on an earlier than required NCT would probably invalidate the existing cert/disc.

I guess in a perfect system it would, but i dont think the system works that way.

Even from the other side of things, i have a car that has been off the road for the past couple of years, doing a bit of work to get her right now. Its NCT is due at the end of the month. (but has not had an nct for the past two years) If i NCT'd the car in dec/Jan and it passed with flying colours it is quiet lightly that i would only get 1/2 months of an NCT disk. Even though the car passed and thus should be ok for 1/2 years. They would make me retest it i reckon. So it'll be sittin there a while longer.

I would imagine the Test you are doing is for your next NCT cycle so it wouldn't affect your current one. saying that im only guessing on looking at how the NCT system works in other ways.

Anan1

Henry Ford III wrote: »

My view is a fail on an earlier than required NCT would probably invalidate the existing cert/disc.

I can see why it should, but i'm pretty sure it doesn't.:)

Gurgle

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The NCT failure should be indicative that the car isn't roadworthy.

I absolutely agree with the principle of what you're saying. But I don't believe it applies to the reality of the NCT system as imposed in Ireland.

I don't condone anyone driving a car which is not roadworthy, but what if for example you tested your car early and failed only because the exhaust noise exceeds the new limit?

In this case I would argue that your car is safe to drive and you have until the expiry date of your cert to get it 'fixed'.

Henry Ford III

Gurgle wrote: »

I absolutely agree with the principle of what you're saying. But I don't believe it applies to the reality of the NCT system as imposed in Ireland.

I don't condone anyone driving a car which is not roadworthy, but what if for example you tested your car early and failed only because the exhaust noise exceeds the new limit?

In this case I would argue that your car is safe to drive and you have until the expiry date of your cert to get it 'fixed'.

Interesting ground really.

I'm not sure on the legalities of driving a car that's failed it's NCT, but if I were an insurer examining a claim arising from a safety issue (say brakes or steering) that had been shown in a NCT failure, I'd be looking carefully at a claim repudiation.

Owner knew the car was dodgy, drove it regardless, and the highlighted fault has caused a claim.

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Lets run a parallel here.

Your job requires a biannual medical. 1 year after your last medical you fall ill, and the doctor says you are not fit to work. In those circumstances the newer evidence supercedes the older.

It's bit different.
If you are doing your medical check, doctor fills in the form stating you are healthy and fit for work.
This form doesn't state that you will be fit for work in upcoming 24 months. It just stated you are fit at the moment when you visited your doctor.
It's up to your employer, if he requires that form every year, 2 year, 5 year, etc.

If you go to your doctor in the mean time and the he decides you are not fit for work, then it doesn't invalidate your previous form he filled in.
It's just a new fact, which most likely you are required by law to reveal to your employer, or even more your doctor might be required to do this.

The NCT failure should be indicative that the car isn't roadworthy.

And it is.
After failing your NCT, you know that your car is not roadworthy.
But this fact has nothing to do with your previous NCT cert and disc, which only indicate when is the due date of next test which you have to do.

Anan1

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Interesting ground really.

I'm not sure on the legalities of driving a car that's failed it's NCT, but if I were an insurer examining a claim arising from a safety issue (say brakes or steering) that had been shown in a NCT failure, I'd be looking carefully at a claim repudiation.

Owner knew the car was dodgy, drove it regardless, and the highlighted fault has caused a claim.

The issue there would be the owner driving a car that they knew to be unroadworthy. I have 29 months NCT on my car, this would still be valid even if I wore my tyres down to the wire. All the NCT is is a declaration that the car was OK at the time of testing, a car can be unroadworthy with one or roadworthy without.

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Interesting ground really.

I'm not sure on the legalities of driving a car that's failed it's NCT, but if I were an insurer examining a claim arising from a safety issue (say brakes or steering) that had been shown in a NCT failure, I'd be looking carefully at a claim repudiation.

Owner knew the car was dodgy, drove it regardless, and the highlighted fault has caused a claim.

In a perfect world which you are describing, everyone after failing NCT should tow a car to the garage to get it fixed, and then tow it again to NCT centre to get it tested.
Usually you must wait few weeks for retest, so you would be without your car for such long.

Henry Ford III

The UK (which is far from perfect) says the following on MOT failure....

MOT Failure Question

A question that is often asked follows:

If car fails MOT is the old test certificate still valid until its expiry date?

Well the answer does not seem to be found on any of the government information about the MOT test, so we emailed VOSA with this question and this is their response:

"An MOT certificate is valid until its expiry date. However if your vehicle fails a test before this date and you do not rectify the defects then you are driving an unroadworthy vehicle which is an offence."

So to put this into context if your car fails the MOT due to illegal tyres then you are driving an unroadworthy vehicle, you were driving unroadworthy vehicle before the MOT, and you will be driving an unroadworthy vehicle until you get a new tyre. Therefore at anytime if caught you would be subject to a £2500 fine and 3 points per illegal tyre.

However once you get a new tyre your car is roadworthy and the old MOT is still valid until its expiry date, thus you can then drive your car again and get it retested to your timescale, with out worrying about driving without an MOT.

This is a very good reason to book your Mot early and give yourself plenty of time to book a retest if needed.

Evolving

It`s been an interesting debate on whether an early failed NCT should invalidate the remaining time on the original cert and disc. I`m of the opinion that it should invalidate it, but after calling the NCT enquiries department, they tell me it actually won`t. Food for thought then on what role the NCT actually has on the safety of cars on our roads. :rolleyes:

Guy:Incognito

Gurgle wrote: »

This: is bull. This so-called safety & environmental testing was handed over to a corporate monopoly by the most corrupt government we've ever had.

who should it have been given too? A load of independant garages whos interest it is for you to fail so they can offer rapairs? Theres no way thats open to abuse.

Its a contract that goes up for tender every few years, not some immovable corporate giant srcewing the country.

stimpson

As has said before, just because you have a valid NCT doesn't mean your car is roadworthy.

I assume that allowing people to book early is more to do with efficencies and as a courtesy to customers. If a fail invalidated an existing cert then nobody would come in for an early NCT.

My car failed last month due to a couple of minor faults (and a few debatable faults!). I still have a valid cert up to the end of the month, but I'm fixing it early, so my car will be more roadworthy earlier than if I had waited until the cert was up.

Henry Ford III

stimpson wrote: »

As has said before, just because you have a valid NCT doesn't mean your car is roadworthy....

What does it mean then?

robbie99

Henry Ford III wrote: »

What does it mean then?

It means your car was roadworthy on the date you took the test.

Henry Ford III

robbie99 wrote: »

It means your car was roadworthy on the date you took the test.

But a subsequent failure (before the next due date) then must mean it no longer is?

I find this a bit mind boggling tbh. It's also quite incredible that someone can have a car fail it's NCT and then just drive it away afterwards. It could be the worst deathtrap imaginable.

Gophur

Henry Ford III wrote: »

But a subsequent failure (before the next due date) then must mean it no longer is?

I find this a bit mind boggling tbh. It's also quite incredible that someone can have a car fail it's NCT and then just drive it away afterwards. It could be the worst deathtrap imaginable.

An NCT pass does not mean your car is road-worthy.

A fail could be something very simple and safe. If an inspector spots a dangerous fail you will not be allowed drive the car away.

stimpson

Henry Ford III wrote: »

But a subsequent failure (before the next due date) then must mean it no longer is?

I find this a bit mind boggling tbh. It's also quite incredible that someone can have a car fail it's NCT and then just drive it away afterwards. It could be the worst deathtrap imaginable.

My car failed for a loose CV boot and a worn anti roll bar bushing. They needed to be fixed but the car was hardly a deathtrap.

CiniO

Evolving wrote: »

It`s been an interesting debate on whether an early failed NCT should invalidate the remaining time on the original cert and disc. I`m of the opinion that it should invalidate it, but after calling the NCT enquiries department, they tell me it actually won`t. Food for thought then on what role the NCT actually has on the safety of cars on our roads. :rolleyes:

Answer is very straight-forward.
NCT forces people to have their vehicles tested every year (two years), and therefore it highly help that most cars are kept in roadworthy or nearly-roadworthy condition.

You must admit that during one year between test, car can deteriorate much less, than if it wasn't tested for 10 years or something.

NCT disc/cert is issued only for the purposes of reminding owner when is the next test due and for garda to make sure drivers adhere to test due dates.
NCT cert/disc validity date has absolutely nothing to do with car worthiness/unworthiness that's why I can't see any reason for previous disc/cert being invalidated after failing a test.

Henry Ford III

Gophur wrote: »

An NCT pass does not mean your car is road-worthy.

A fail could be something very simple and safe. If an inspector spots a dangerous fail you will not be allowed drive the car away.

If it's not an opinion on a car being roadworthy what exactly is it then? See post #9 above.

Henry Ford III

http://www.nct.ie/the_test.html

the National Car Test Makes Sense:

1. Greater Road Safety
The NCT tests the roadworthiness of motor vehicles and identifies any defects, such as faulty brakes, Suspension and rusty bodywork. These defects must be repaired and the car must pass a re-test before the car owner will be issued with an NCT Certificate.

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I find this a bit mind boggling tbh. It's also quite incredible that someone can have a car fail it's NCT and then just drive it away afterwards. It could be the worst deathtrap imaginable.

Most NCT fails don't bring direct danger, thats why you can drive off and have a month to repair the fails.

If car was really dangerous, then you get "dangerous fail" report and you are not allowed to drive a car.

Our man in Havana

What power do the NCT have to prohibit a vehicle?

Henry Ford III

Our man in Havana wrote: »

What power do the NCT have to prohibit a vehicle?

From RSA site....

Fail Dangerous

Where a vehicle has a dangerous defect i.e. a defect that constitutes a direct and immediate risk to road safety such that the vehicle should not be used on the road under any circumstances, the NCT vehicle inspector will issue a Failed Dangerous result.

It is an offence to drive a dangerously defective vehicle on the public road. The penalty for such an offence is a fine of up to €2000 and 5 penalty points on conviction and/or 3 months imprisonment, (Offence under Section 54 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 and related amendments).

When the result is Failed Dangerous the NCT vehicle inspector will advise you as follows:

Of the existence, extent and nature of the defect.
That if you drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while there is a defect affecting the vehicle which you know of or could have discovered by the exercise of ordinary care and which is such that the vehicle is, when in motion, a danger to the public, you shall be guilty of an offence.
That in the opinion of NCTS the vehicle is dangerous.
That you must make arrangements to have the vehicle removed from the test centre.

A sticker stating “Failed Dangerous” will be attached to the vehicle and the vehicle inspector will issue you with a statement regarding requirements for vehicles with a failed dangerous result.

slimjimmc

Don't forget road-worthiness covers more than the vehicle's safety, it includes legal requirements for using a car on the road. A car could fail the NCT for having a non-compliant number plate, faulty number plate lighting or faulty reversing lamps (where fitted), or even a noisy exhaust, none of which make the car unsafe to use on the road.

Gurgle

CiniO wrote: »

After failing your NCT, you know that your car is not roadworthy.

But this is the problem, the NCT is not about safety / roadworthiness.

Even when carried out honestly its a check of compliance with regulations, from the noise output of your exhaust to the font on your number plate.

Put it this way; your car may be safe and roadworthy in every meaningful way and still fail the NCT.

CiniO

Gurgle wrote: »

But this is the problem, the NCT is not about safety / roadworthiness.

Even when carried out honestly its a check of compliance with regulations, from the noise output of your exhaust to the font on your number plate.

Put it this way; your car may be safe and roadworthy in every meaningful way and still fail the NCT.

I always thought that "car being roadworthy" means that it fulfills all technical requirements set by law.

Can't see then how could it be roadworthy and fail NCT.

Gurgle

CiniO wrote: »

I always thought that "car being roadworthy" means that it fulfills all technical requirements set by law.

I would interpret 'roadworthy' as meaning that there is nothing about the vehicle that makes it unsafe to drive. As per my previous example, the font on the number plate does not affect the car's road-worthiness but may lead to an NCT failure.

Gophur

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Gophur wrote: »

An NCT pass does not mean your car is road-worthy.

A fail could be something very simple and safe. If an inspector spots a dangerous fail you will not be allowed drive the car away.

If it's not an opinion on a car being roadworthy what exactly is it then? See post #9 above.

It is a statement the car was roadworthy at the moment it was tested. 100 metres down the road it means nothing.

The day after the test the cert is worthless if you want to use it to prove your car IS roadworthy.

CiniO

Gurgle wrote: »

I would interpret 'roadworthy' as meaning that there is nothing about the vehicle that makes it unsafe to drive. As per my previous example, the font on the number plate does not affect the car's road-worthiness but may lead to an NCT failure.

By relating roadworthiness only with vehicle being safe, you are making a mistake.

Car with broken exhaust is fully safe to drive, but can make horrible noise, which might inconvienance 100s of people.

Car with wrong font of numberplate, is fully safe, but if driver commits an offence (or crime) - for example hit and run - it might be very difficult for anyone else to read his number plate.

Generally speaking roadworthiness is not only about safety.
It's about all technical aspects required by law

Gurgle

CiniO wrote: »

Generally speaking roadworthiness is not only about safety.
It's about all technical aspects required by law

Yeah, fair enough.
I guess the safety / pollution focus was just propaganda to convince us it was all a good idea.