Solar panels

fclauson

recedit

8900Kwh per annum is very high - DEAP assumes 3802 Kwh/annum for DHW for a 7 person dwelling for a well lagged system

It calculats this by doing 28 litres @ 60 degrees + 26 litres @ 60 degrees x the number of people

It then addjusts for system losses etc

Typically solar will give could give you 60% of this figure

so if you take these figures the pay back stretches a long way into the future

fclauson

refco wrote: »

...if your have solar assuming a year round average of 30 degree input ...

Refco

just be warned - averages are nasty things - you have to look at hot water usage patterns

If you are a morning showering house - then at 7am you need a hot tank of water - there is no nighttime solar - so you boiler will have to make sure the tank is hot - if you have been lucky all day yesterday the tank would have been heating up so you might be ok

If you are an evening showing house - then at 7pm you can check to see if solar did you any good at all and then top as required

Where averages bite - is you cannot add heat to already hot water
e.g. - morning showering routine - tank is at 35 by the time you have finished - not until the panels reach 39 can they add any useful heat to the tank - so from may be 7am->10 or 11am you get no beneft from the solar panels. At the other end of the day once the tank reaches 60 or 70 then any extra heat produced has to be dumped by some means - so again wasted heat

the modelling of solar panels always seems to assume you can make use of all the solar being provided - which is not the case

the other nasty average is that at the height of summer you might be getting 4.5 kWhwh/m2/day but in winter you might get just 0.6 kWh/m2/day

The Bishop Basher

fclauson wrote: »

If you are a morning showering house - then at 7am you need a hot tank of water - there is no nighttime solar - so you boiler will have to make sure the tank is hot

We are a morning and evening showering house and this is never an issue. A correctly insulated tank will negate this. In the Summer, 4 of us have hot showers every morning without the need for immersion or bolier. Same again in the evening.

fclauson wrote: »

if you have been lucky all day yesterday the tank would have been heating up so you might be ok

I've never found that there's any luck element either. Regardless of weather, the water is hot throughout the Summer. I've never used the bolier or the immersion in Summertime.

Lavcon

Got a flyer through the door here in Fairview area the other day for a solar hot water installer offering discounts. Called them and they sent out a salesman with the offer of being the representitive solar home in the area and a special rebate scheme for referrals which if you get 8 referrals who install you get a full refund for the price of your system. Needless to say with the too be good to be true offer there was a catch with a quote of 11,490 euro for instillation minus discounts for an "Urgent install" of e574.50, Display Advert for four weeks Discount e574.50 and "First Marketing visit" discount of e1149. To leave net price of e8342. To get the discounts you basically had to commit there and then

Now I know next to nothing about solar systems but this seemed like a completely ridiculously quote. Very hard sell and had the audacity to talk about it being an unregulated industry and there being loads of cowboys about. Nearly laughed in his face.

Thought it was confined to this area but chatting to friends in Inchicore apparently they've had the leaflet drop to......

ccsolar

Lavcon wrote: »

Got a flyer through the door here in Fairview area the other day for a solar hot water installer offering discounts. Called them and they sent out a salesman with the offer of being the representitive solar home in the area and a special rebate scheme for referrals which if you get 8 referrals who install you get a full refund for the price of your system. Needless to say with the too be good to be true offer there was a catch with a quote of 11,490 euro for instillation minus discounts for an "Urgent install" of e574.50, Display Advert for four weeks Discount e574.50 and "First Marketing visit" discount of e1149. To leave net price of e8342. To get the discounts you basically had to commit there and then

Now I know next to nothing about solar systems but this seemed like a completely ridiculously quote. Very hard sell and had the audacity to talk about it being an unregulated industry and there being loads of cowboys about. Nearly laughed in his face.

Thought it was confined to this area but chatting to friends in Inchicore apparently they've had the leaflet drop to......

Hi Lavcon
I'll bet their was a number in the name of the company...
The standard solar system should cost between €4-€5K .
This company has caught a lot of people through out Ireland and should be reported.
Cc

trixyben

ccsolar wrote: »

Hi Lavcon
I'll bet their was a number in the name of the company...
The standard solar system should cost between €4-€5K .
This company has caught a lot of people through out Ireland and should be reported.
Cc

I know exactly the company you refer to!

A good mate of mine bought system from them for over 12k, had noothing but problems since day one it was installed, was told they had engineers all over the country and not a word of it! He actually went to there office and was verbally abused and told to leave -- now that wasnt the customer service he was promised!

He did report to the SEAI but sure they done nothing only to be told if he did report them his grant payment would be held up!

I recently got solar installed in a house, it was a popular (30) tube system with 300l tank with a crew from Dundalk area for €4,900 -- no big sales talk, came out took few measurements, quick look in attic etc All fitted in a day, good clean tidy work

CubicleDweller

Hi,

I got a quote this evening for 3 panels - one flat one on the front of the house, two of the tube type on the back, plus cylinder, pump, installation, etc. (We need panels on both front and back, we were told, because our house faces due east, so the flat panel will face east and the tubes west.)

That quote came out at 9k before the grant was deducted. There was a discount available, for being a "reference site" - letting them erect a sign in the garden for six weeks, take photos they might use on their website, etc. With the discount and taking the grant into account, it would end up costing us 6100 euro.

Is that, as I suspect, overpriced? We're in Dublin, if it matters, on the northside. It's a small, terraced, two-story house - about 100 square metres in floorspace. Two of us live here, but it would be good to allow for four. And we have pumped showers that use a fair bit of water.

What sort of system *should* we be looking at, and how much should it cost? Any information or opinions will be gratefully received.

Thanks in advance!

quentingargan

CubicleDweller wrote: »

Hi,

I got a quote this evening for 3 panels - one flat one on the front of the house, two of the tube type on the back, plus cylinder, pump, installation, etc. (We need panels on both front and back, we were told, because our house faces due east, so the flat panel will face east and the tubes west.)

That quote came out at 9k before the grant was deducted. There was a discount available, for being a "reference site" - letting them erect a sign in the garden for six weeks, take photos they might use on their website, etc. With the discount and taking the grant into account, it would end up costing us 6100 euro.

Is that, as I suspect, overpriced? We're in Dublin, if it matters, on the northside. It's a small, terraced, two-story house - about 100 square metres in floorspace. Two of us live here, but it would be good to allow for four. And we have pumped showers that use a fair bit of water.

What sort of system *should* we be looking at, and how much should it cost? Any information or opinions will be gratefully received.

Thanks in advance!

Looney system. Plates on one side, tubes on the other? Why?? And 9K is also more than double what you should be paying. 6100 is still way out of the league.

If you must put panels on both sides, easiest thing is to use tubes on both sides and just one pump circulating through both, as the heat loss in the manifold is negligible, and it saves the cost of dual pump east-west solutions, but to be honest, I would opt for putting all on one side if there is room, and just upscale the panel size slightly to allow for it not facing south.

The 9K and discount for bits and pieces is an old con which is being used. Keep shopping!!

CubicleDweller

Thanks for the reply, quentingargan.

quentingargan wrote: »

Looney system. Plates on one side, tubes on the other? Why?? And 9K is also more than double what you should be paying. 6100 is still way out of the league.

The reasoning seemed to be that because the two sloping roof surfaces face due east and due west we'd need collectors on both, or else we're only capturing energy for half of the day. That wasn't really spelled out, but seemed to be where they were coming from.

Come to think of it, that wouldn't be a problem if you had big enough collectors on one side, and a big enough (and well-enough insulated) storage cylinder, right?

If you *did* need collectors on both surfaces, it seemed reasonable to have the flat panels to the front of the house, to provide a neater appearance. And tubes to the back (where they would barely be visible from our short back garden) would be more efficient, I gather.

And yes, I thought the price was high...

quentingargan wrote: »

If you must put panels on both sides, easiest thing is to use tubes on both sides and just one pump circulating through both, as the heat loss in the manifold is negligible, and it saves the cost of dual pump east-west solutions, but to be honest, I would opt for putting all on one side if there is room, and just upscale the panel size slightly to allow for it not facing south.

Does the mix of different collector types actually require two pumps? That wasn't mentioned, and might account for some of the cost. The guy I was dealing with was a salesman; I found it a bit off-putting that the site survey by an engineer is only carried out *after* you've signed up for the deal.

quentingargan wrote: »

The 9K and discount for bits and pieces is an old con which is being used. Keep shopping!!

Thanks, I think I will. The idea of an inflated initial price, then a discount to make the punter think he's getting a bargain, is a pretty obvious sales tactic alright.

So, I'm wondering now if I'd be better off with just a bunch of tube collectors on the back (west-facing) slope of the roof - more than would usually be needed if they were facing south - and a large (300L?) cylinder?

richiek67

Well, anyone here could tell you that its a con. I never heard of such a ludicrous way of doing business, for starters , a 3 panel install would be in the region of 4k5, perhaps a little cheaper. That would be after the grant which is about 800euro approx. At least that's what I'm being quoted from SEI . ( sustainable energy ireland )
Bet he never mentioned a grant. Don't be fooled, always get advise and dont be hood winked at the door either. You should get at least 2-3 quotes anyway if your series.
It is regulated and there are trained and proper qualified people to do the installs.

Rich

Lavcon wrote: »

Got a flyer through the door here in Fairview area the other day for a solar hot water installer offering discounts. Called them and they sent out a salesman with the offer of being the representitive solar home in the area and a special rebate scheme for referrals which if you get 8 referrals who install you get a full refund for the price of your system. Needless to say with the too be good to be true offer there was a catch with a quote of 11,490 euro for instillation minus discounts for an "Urgent install" of e574.50, Display Advert for four weeks Discount e574.50 and "First Marketing visit" discount of e1149. To leave net price of e8342. To get the discounts you basically had to commit there and then

Now I know next to nothing about solar systems but this seemed like a completely ridiculously quote. Very hard sell and had the audacity to talk about it being an unregulated industry and there being loads of cowboys about. Nearly laughed in his face.

Thought it was confined to this area but chatting to friends in Inchicore apparently they've had the leaflet drop to......

ccsolar

richiek67 wrote: »

Well, anyone here could tell you that its a con. I never heard of such a ludicrous way of doing business, for starters , a 3 panel install would be in the region of 4k5, perhaps a little cheaper. That would be after the grant which is about 800euro approx. At least that's what I'm being quoted from SEI . ( sustainable energy ireland )
Bet he never mentioned a grant. Don't be fooled, always get advise and dont be hood winked at the door either. You should get at least 2-3 quotes anyway if your series.
It is regulated and there are trained and proper qualified people to do the installs.

Rich

Hi rich
You are quite right to recommend getting 2-3 quotes, you should also get a guarantee that the system they install meets the 10 kwh/sqm requirement set out by the Seai
Some companies are installing systems that are not complying with the grant, for this reason they neglect to mention anything about the grant.
Check with the Seai that the company is still registered to carry out the work.
The cost of 4-5k is before the grant of €800 and there is also a grant of €50 for the BER Rating which you will require for the solar grant
Cc

quentingargan

CubicleDweller wrote: »

If you *did* need collectors on both surfaces, it seemed reasonable to have the flat panels to the front of the house, to provide a neater appearance.

Does the mix of different collector types actually require two pumps? That wasn't mentioned, and might account for some of the cost.
So, I'm wondering now if I'd be better off with just a bunch of tube collectors on the back (west-facing) slope of the roof - more than would usually be needed if they were facing south - and a large (300L?) cylinder?

If you put flatplates on both sides of a roof, you cannot pump hot water from one panel through the "cold" panel on the other side, so you need two separate channels back to the cylinder.

However, if you have heat-pipe type tubes, it isn't the worst thing in the world to pump hot water through the manifold of the "cold" panel, because the manifold is basically a well insulated length of insulated 22mm copper.

So if one or the other is a flatplate, you will need a two-channel pump system. That can either be one pump with motorised valves, or more commonly, two pumps. You also may need a slightly different solar controller.

I wouldn't necessarily see the need for a larger cylinder. You size the system for the expected output of the panels. If you put a larger array on a west facing roof, you will get the same heat daily (give or take) as a slightly smaller array on a south facing roof. There are software simulators that take in other factors such as roof pitch (an east facing roof at 30 degrees is better than an east facing roof at 45 degrees for example).

As regards the grant, provided the house isn't very large, it is usually feasible to get the grant. It can be a problem to economically achieve 10Kw Hrs per sqM for a very large house, so if you live in a McMansion with only two inhabitants, there's no point in putting in a 500L system just to claim the grant. But for modest houses, yes, the grant is feasible, and also provides some assurance that the system is overseen by SEAI.

recedite

ccsolar wrote: »

you should also get a guarantee that the system they install meets the 10 kwh/sqm requirement set out by the Seai

Are SEAI measuring/enforcing that requirement though?

quentingargan

recedite wrote: »

Are SEAI measuring/enforcing that requirement though?

Yes, inasmuch as you have to produce a BER certificate to get the grant. How well the BER process is being monitored is another day's work - at the prices being charged for BER, I can't see how you can get accuracy. Also, the system must be shown to produce 10KwHrs / day using the DEAP software, which itself is fundamentally flawed...

But at least it is required that the panels have EN certification etc.

ccsolar

Are SEAI measuring/enforcing that requirement though?

Yes they are, with some of the dodgy installers getting removed from the Seai list.
I know 1 company that is been watched very carefully by the Seai and has a few grant jobs refused because the solar panels did not meet the required 10 kwh/sqm.
(The solar panel that works night and day)
The BER rating should only cost about €180 , depending on your location, this is what we pay.
Cc

bamboozle

CubicleDweller wrote: »

Hi,

I got a quote this evening for 3 panels - one flat one on the front of the house, two of the tube type on the back, plus cylinder, pump, installation, etc. (We need panels on both front and back, we were told, because our house faces due east, so the flat panel will face east and the tubes west.)

That quote came out at 9k before the grant was deducted. There was a discount available, for being a "reference site" - letting them erect a sign in the garden for six weeks, take photos they might use on their website, etc. With the discount and taking the grant into account, it would end up costing us 6100 euro.

Is that, as I suspect, overpriced? We're in Dublin, if it matters, on the northside. It's a small, terraced, two-story house - about 100 square metres in floorspace. Two of us live here, but it would be good to allow for four. And we have pumped showers that use a fair bit of water.

What sort of system *should* we be looking at, and how much should it cost? Any information or opinions will be gratefully received.

Thanks in advance!

we've solar installed, first crowd out to give us a quote were so keen for the job they assured us our back garden was south facing and perfect for solar. I assured them it was west facing, Anyway based on that they recommended a 40 tube system. We went with this 40 tube system but with a different company. The plumbers were uncomfortable putting up the panels as the garden was west/north-west facing and they had 2 compassas and they didnt feel 40 tubes would be sufficient to do a proper job.

their suggestion add on an extra 20 tubes which we did (extra 2-300 quid) we've had the solar up now nearly 3 years, never an ounce of trouble and lots and lots of hot water.

i think our total cost was around 4k, less grant at the time of 1800. We're northside dublin also if you want recommendation.

solarstudent

I study renewable energy in college and have been on work placement with a solar company for a while now. What I will say is be very wary of door to door salesmen selling solar panels using fancy leaflets and flyers where you must buy or give deposit straight away in order to avail of certain discounts. We have had numerous phonecalls/letters from people with what really are horror stories about bad installation and cheap inefficient systems. 20% of our business comes from repairing this work so in a way we should be thankful but it is terrible to see people being done out of hard earned money so beware!

rosepaddy

Swanner wrote: »

Can't recommend them enough. We have the tubes, west facing, cost about €5000 all in but we have free scalding water 6 months of the year and it's luke warm the rest so cheaper then heating from cold. As Jon says though, they won't heat the rads. . Haven't worked it out but with energy prices rising all the time it can't take too long before your recoup your initial outlay and start to hit the black.

solar can be utalised for heating support you just have to find the right company to do it for you with the right product, west cork company intergrating solar for this purpose for over 6 years now and have much evidence to prove this pm if you want more information

rosepaddy

agree totally we have come accross the same sometimes using influential people who do not advocate these products buyers beware, more tube does not mean more heat, look at the kilowatt outputs checj out all the information be aware alot of companies market the product by an n0 factor claiming it to be colletor efficency it clearly is not, it is a factor used with other factors to give collector efiiicency n or eff

rosepaddy

Are SEAI measuring/enforcing that requirement though?

Yes they are, with some of the dodgy installers getting removed from the Seai list.
I know 1 company that is been watched very carefully by the Seai and has a few grant jobs refused because the solar panels did not meet the required 10 kwh/sqm.
(The solar panel that works night and day)
The BER rating should only cost about €180 , depending on your location, this is what we pay.
Cc

i wonder could you clarify something for me since when can we get solar irradiation from the MOON or does someone cast a magic spell and turn these SOLAR PANELS into a heat pump with ??? efficiency or even dare i say it an immersion awaiting your repsonce

Qualitymark

With all the sneering about women on this thread, I hesitate to admit that I'm a woman, and am gumming for solar hot water panels, but for the price of installing them.

I got halfway through the thread and then got rather lost when everyone started using acronyms - HP, SP, CP, etc, etc, wtf.

muffler

Qualitymark wrote: »

With all the sneering about women on this thread

I haven't noticed that but if you care to point it out to me I'll have a look

Qualitymark

muffler wrote: »

I haven't noticed that but if you care to point it out to me I'll have a look

Perhaps I'm too sensitive...

Women....Mentioned it to her again last night
If you can explain to me why women will not go ahead with this kind of thing I'd be grateful. Or even ask some women you know.
Most women are reluctant to lose hot press space
Most women regard a long hot bath as an all too infrequent luxury.
( god its hard when women are clueless technically )

muffler

Qualitymark wrote: »

Perhaps I'm too sensitive...

No, not in the least. I or any of my co-mods wouldn't allow any form of discrimination or derisory comments to be posted here.

Anyhow I had a bit of trawling back to do through the posts to find those comments and unless I missed something those comments would all be attributed to richiek67.

Like any comment it has to be taken in context and it appears that richiek67 and his good wife were not just seeing eye to eye on a particular issue. My reading is (and Ill use the "god its hard when women are clueless technically" comment as an example) that looking at the comment on it's own (as posted above) would give the impression of a certain lack of knowledge of the workings of the female brain.

However when read in context with his overall issues with his wife then the comment was personal and he I believe he was alluding to his wife only.

Fair play to the guy in one way. He's a braver man than me as I wouldn't take a chance and post the type of stuff he did for fear of the missus would seeing it. I hope for his sake she didnt.

Anyhow I'll ask the other mods here for their opinion as we dont always agree or express the same sentiments on various issues.

Just a bit of advice though for the future. If you aren't comfortable with anything you see in a post then just report it as that we we get to see and deal with it a lot faster.

Qualitymark

I don't think the comment about women not liking to take baths was Richie, to tell the truth.

This low-level buzz of sexism is designed to make women feel uncomfortable.

But really, I was just grumbling about that - it's nasty and unpleasant, but what I was asking about was the acronyms, which I didn't understand.

Poor Uncle Tom

Qualitymark wrote: »

But really, I was just grumbling about that - it's nasty and unpleasant, but what I was asking about was the acronyms, which I didn't understand.

This http://www.freesunpower.com/solar_terms.php#Top
may be of some help.

Qualitymark

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

This http://www.freesunpower.com/solar_terms.php#Top
may be of some help.

Thanks very much - very helpful.

saibhne

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

This http://www.freesunpower.com/solar_terms.php#Top
may be of some help.

Good resource but thought I'd mention for those using this thread as a reference in the future that the site above deals specifically with Solar PV (electricty generating panels..) when this thread deals with solar thermal panels which are heat generating - just in case there is any confusion.

SEAI has some good info on solar thermal here:

http://www.seai.ie/Renewables/Solar_Energy/Solar_Information_Resources/Solar_Thermal/

richiek67

Thought I'd reply to this...

Sorry for any miss construed comments I might have made...by the way, the bath quote indeed was NOT me... lol

As the moderator said, ( and thank you ), it was all in context at my frustration at trying to get my wife to understand the benefits of this type of energy. Indeed it was directed at her and not the global audience ...!
Since then I have given up trying to succeed here due partly to the fact that I twigged, just in time, that my shower in the bathroom is electric and not dual, unfortunately. Would mean having to dig out the existing shower for a new one and to chase the wall for a new pipe going up to and through into the tank of hot water. More work than getting the panel on the roof if you ask me.... , so I decided to know when I'm thwarted ...: Till the next battle....

recedite

richiek67 wrote: »

Till the next battle....

Getting agreement for Solar PV panels on your roof?