This is fracking unbelievable, restart the gravy train, Leitrim to the rescue

NakedNNettles

ardle1 wrote: »

I dont beat around the bush, and I'm an educated man,, as you speak,, you are obviously a tree hugger "no offence" ... GET MINING AND GET DRILLING A.S.A.P,,, .... Oh by the way we have an environment have we,, I've seen the Great Barrier Reef on TV!!!

Ya! You're a real straight talkin' no BS kind of lad, fair play! :rolleyes:

An educated man you say, you seem more like a bull in a china shop, to hell with everyone, money money money....lets worry about the consequences later. Basically the very things that drove this country up onto the rocks.

Yeah we have an environment, it's all around ya.

Gas lobby are pushing hard on this fracking recently, there in trying to take advantage of our dire situation. Anyway if it it all goes tits up you can be sure the gas boys gone as quick as their legs can carry them, they won't be paying out for any clean up.

Country's in a mess, let's not make it worse.

mikeym

Dont trust the whole fracking thing and if I was living up in Leitrim id be very worried.

Michael 09

Sky King wrote: »

Tipp Man wrote: »

Ever hear of costs???

Yes, costs are what companies use as a means to avoid paying tax. Pat Rabbitte told us all about jacking up the tax rate on profits made from Corrib, but it's pretty easy to pay 'consultancy fees' of 25% turnover to a company based in Bermuda (also owned by the same expoloration company).

Profit made in Ireland : €0
Tax paid on profit made in ireland is nice high percentage... of €0

Ah I see that you are not familiar with the new transfer pricing legislation. Can't do that anymore

thebostoncrab

I have t made up my mind on fracking, in fact before today I knew nothing on the subject. But after reading the whole thread, I just want to say that alot of the posters that are against it are doing themselves no favours at all with how they are debating. You are resorting to questioning anyone who opposes your idea as stupid, lacking intelligence and working "for the man" as it were. While I am not seeing the same coming from those you are debating with, just people asking you to not resort to personal digs and insults. That attitude makes me it alot more difficult for me to want to side with and support your cause.

NakedNNettles

thebostoncrab wrote: »

I have t made up my mind on fracking, in fact before today I knew nothing on the subject. But after reading the whole thread, I just want to say that alot of the posters that are against it are doing themselves no favours at all with how they are debating. You are resorting to questioning anyone who opposes your idea as stupid, lacking intelligence and working "for the man" as it were. While I am not seeing the same coming from those you are debating with, just people asking you to not resort to personal digs and insults. That attitude makes me it alot more difficult for me to want to side with and support your cause.

Well if you are looking for educated debate then you're in the wrong forum, this is after hours FFS.

Whether you're for or against it won't make a blind bit of difference unless it's on your doorstep they're planning to drill. It's the people who are directly affected who will cast their vote and at the moment that looks like 'Against it' and sure could you blame them. Every man, woman and child in Leitrim is as entitled to clean water and chemical free environment as the next part of the country.

Only skimmed through the thread so sorry it this was mentioned before:

(can't take credit for spotting this either, it was my boss)

2.2 trillion cubic feet = 2,200,000,000,000
$2.50 per 1000 cubic feet
2.2trillion/1000 = 2,200,000,000
2,200,000,000 * $2.5 = 5,500,000,000

$5.5 billion, not $55 billion

nedzer2011

NakedNNettles wrote: »

Well if you are looking for educated debate then you're in the wrong forum, this is after hours FFS.

True enough, but I think it's pretty reflective of some of the uneducated 'shouting down' being done by some members the anti-frac side.

Whether you're for or against it won't make a blind bit of difference unless it's on your doorstep they're planning to drill. It's the people who are directly affected who will cast their vote and at the moment that looks like 'Against it' and sure could you blame them. Every man, woman and child in Leitrim is as entitled to clean water and chemical free environment as the next part of the country.

Just a slightly off-topic thought (which I'm completely open to correction on) but I wonder how many of the anti-frac side who want to ensure clean drinking water for themselves and their children also oppose the new septic tank charges and regulations?

These charges and accompanying regulations have been brought about to ensure that risk of pollution caused to groundwater by faulty tanks is minimised, yet people are up in arms against their introduction.
I accept that the polluting agents and potential risk to human health aren't directly comparable but is there a slight hint of double standards?

pcworldisajoke

double post

pcworldisajoke

yet another attept to muddy the waters and distract from the questions at hand-

you ask are those opposed to fracking also opposed to septic tank charges and then you tell us that we are, and that we have double standards. Why ask the question at all nedzer?????

go start a thread on those charges somewhere else. This is a completely unrelated topic.

nedzer2011

Perhaps my phrasing was a bit off.. apologies.

The aggressive tone however is unwarranted and is typical of some of the shouting, bordering on intimidation that we've seen in this thread. Terrible debate.

pcworldisajoke

nedzer2011 wrote: »

Perhaps my phrasing was a bit off.. apologies.

The aggressive tone however is unwarranted and is typical of some of the shouting, bordering on intimidation that we've seen in this thread. Terrible debate.

nedzer there was no aggressiveness there...ask irrelevent questions and you'll get plain old fashioned direct resposes. Dont be trying to undefmine the issue by calling foul when theres no foul.

there hasnt been one example given as to how this process could benefit anyone but the companies and politicians. If youre so in favour of fracking, maybe youve got some answers.

Paddy De Plasterer

Leitrim has already been destroyed by tree planting, wind turbines, and overflowing septic tanks - it has the largest pollution rate in the country, its drinking water is nearly as bad as Galway, where Captain O Cuiv rules the roost.

pcworldisajoke

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

Leitrim has already been destroyed by tree planting, wind turbines, and overflowing septic tanks - it has the largest pollution rate in the country, its drinking water is nearly as bad as Galway, where Captain O Cuiv rules the roost.

paddy the issue isnt leitrim. Its anywhere in the country. Tourism wise it wont matter a toss either. We're a tiny nation...joe american, pierre frenchy, pedro spaniard, and sakimoto japanese will see one thing - fracking...ireland...i thought that place was green....im going somewhere else. Agriculture exports have all of the above applying also. We are one country not a series of counties.

nedzer2011

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

there hasnt been one example given as to how this process could benefit anyone but the companies and politicians. If youre so in favour of fracking, maybe youve got some answers.

Firstly, I never said than I'm in favour so don't know where you got that from - I'm on the fence and trying to remain objective but the manner in which the anti-frac side are debating isn't helping matters.
Benefits? Without going into detail they simply are jobs, revenue and energy security. If you would like me to explain in more detail I will.

There are drawbacks, but nowhere near the level stated by some. I've debated at length on other similar threads - not sure if I've the energy to rehash everything!!

pcworldisajoke

nedzer2011 wrote: »

Firstly, I never said than I'm in favour so don't know where you got that from - I'm on the fence and trying to remain objective but the manner in which the anti-frac side are debating isn't helping matters.
Benefits? Without going into detail they simply are jobs, revenue and energy security. If you would like me to explain in more detail I will.

There are drawbacks, but nowhere near the level stated by some. I've debated at length on other similar threads - not sure if I've the energy to rehash everything!!

energywise- i feel where youre coming from Nedzer. Ive seen your other stuff on other threads and i dont think youre lying- just misinformed.

The impact on tourism, our image abroad, the possible effects of spills (that have happened with alarming frequency around the world), and the negligible impact on jobs makes this just a bad option for Ireland. Couple that with the fact that we wont control the gas, nor how much we pay for it, and it's a no brainer- we should wait for better tech in years to come.

And the notion that one well will produce 600 jobs, as has been put forward by some , is an example of the disinformation im talking about.

The way forward for this country, the way to get a much needed tourism boost- is to say Hello world, there will never be fracking here- Ireland will stay as it is. The current public profile of fracking aborad would mean this message would have an instant impact. This way, we keep our current jobs, and get a who.le hell of alot more. With fracking, it's lose lose no matter which way things go.

And the whole world is forgetting about green energy, including our government- which is what we should really be concentrating on. Our government are lackeys though, and theyre thinking of themselves, and after politics.

If someone can give me a good argument against us differentiating ourselves and saying to the world- NO FRACKING HERE, JUST ONE MORE REASON TO COME VISIT IRELAND, i'd like to hear it.

nedzer2011

I wouldn’t say I’m misinformed, just trying to stay objective at all times. The figure of 600 jobs for one well isn’t as far off as you might imagine. The first installation would directly and indirectly require somewhere near to this figure – the mistake here would be to assume that this would directly upscale for each well added.
I’m starting to agree that there may be an impact on tourism if fraccing were to go ahead but this is where things get interesting…

There is a massive perception issue out there – the majority of people are convinced that fraccing=pollution and would therefore think less of Ireland as a clean/pure travel destination if it were to go ahead.
What convinces them? It’s the loud scaremongering of sometimes ill-informed campaigners. Even if it were categorically proven that fraccing didn’t pollute (which may happen!!) we would have this perception and it’s not likely to go away in a hurry.

Maybe its best wait a while to proceed with fraccing in this country until we know for certain about potential harm – but there’s no point in forming a concrete opinion until we do.

Mycroft H

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

energywise- i feel where youre coming from Nedzer. Ive seen your other stuff on other threads and i dont think youre lying- just misinformed.

The impact on tourism, our image abroad, the possible effects of spills (that have happened with alarming frequency around the world), and the negligible impact on jobs makes this just a bad option for Ireland. Couple that with the fact that we wont control the gas, nor how much we pay for it, and it's a no brainer- we should wait for better tech in years to come.

And the notion that one well will produce 600 jobs, as has been put forward by some , is an example of the disinformation im talking about.

The way forward for this country, the way to get a much needed tourism boost- is to say Hello world, there will never be fracking here- Ireland will stay as it is. The current public profile of fracking aborad would mean this message would have an instant impact. This way, we keep our current jobs, and get a who.le hell of alot more. With fracking, it's lose lose no matter which way things go.

And the whole world is forgetting about green energy, including our government- which is what we should really be concentrating on. Our government are lackeys though, and theyre thinking of themselves, and after politics.

If someone can give me a good argument against us differentiating ourselves and saying to the world- NO FRACKING HERE, JUST ONE MORE REASON TO COME VISIT IRELAND, i'd like to hear it.

Honestly man, you should send your CV to Tamboran as I'm sure they would love to hear where you save so much money by not hiring 600. You've mentioned 60 as a probable figure and to be honest, even the smallest drilling operation would require more then 60 people. Your mad.

If you can point to me to where a gas field of this size was drilled, constructed and maintained by 60 people, I will buy a hat and eat it.

Your forgetting that this will be no small operation, there is at least 2.2tcf of gas down there. Thats more then the Kinsale and Corrib Gas field put together.

And its very hypocrytical of you to claim that other people are fogging the arguement by going off topic. Your the one who brought Bertie and Coillte into the arguement. Thats just as off topic.

pcworldisajoke wrote:

Hi Mossad. Can you tellme...how many unknown chemicals are pumped with millions of gallons of water into a zinc mine? How many chemical runoffs are possible into the water tables of the biggest underground aquifer in the country? How many zinc mines were proposed? Was it one, or was it a few hundred 200 metre long eyesores?

Your comparison is completely irrelevant. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury please disregard the comments of the gentleman from the Mossad. He's trying to muddy the waters of what is already a difficult subject to decide upon.

Major Fail Mossad.

And lets mention Tara Mines while we're at it. Tara mines is the fifth largest zinc mine in the world and has one of the best records as regarding to environmental impact and pollution. If you don't believe me (And I suspect you dont, as you disagree with anything that goes againsint your veiwsto the point of being redicious) have a look at an EPA report regarding the mines.


Your spouting complete rubbish at this point. And any credibility you had is now gone and your reduced to looking like a tree hugging pseudo environmentalist

Any additional groundwater flow from the extension into Nevinstown and Liscartan is
not expected to alter the overall chemistry of the discharge. The new orebody is
geologically and geochemically identical to the orebody in the main Tara Mine and,
therefore, there will be no significant difference in the water chemistry. (Ref AMC,
Nevinstown Geotechnical Study, 2003).


http://www.epa.ie/licences/lic_eDMS/090151b2803b745e.pdf

recylingbin

So, all the septic tanks have to be inspected to make sure they're not polluting the environment (to pay Anglo's debts in other words) but pumping chemicals into the ground is fine.

WTF?

pcworldisajoke

bx19- i never said anything about 60 people. What you on about??

i did put a link up of a well and asked someone to explain where 600 jobs clme from. Can you answwr that one ? thanks

pcworldisajoke

BX 19 wrote: »

Honestly man, you should send your CV to Tamboran as I'm sure they would love to hear where you save so much money by not hiring 600. You've mentioned 60 as a probable figure and to be honest, even the smallest drilling operation would require more then 60 people. Your mad.

If you can point to me to where a gas field of this size was drilled, constructed and maintained by 60 people, I will buy a hat and eat it.

Your forgetting that this will be no small operation, there is at least 2.2tcf of gas down there. Thats more then the Kinsale and Corrib Gas field put together.

And its very hypocrytical of you to claim that other people are fogging the arguement by going off topic. Your the one who brought Bertie and Coillte into the arguement. Thats just as off topic.




And lets mention Tara Mines while we're at it. Tara mines is the fifth largest zinc mine in the world and has one of the best records as regarding to environmental impact and pollution. If you don't believe me (And I suspect you dont, as you disagree with anything that goes againsint your veiwsto the point of being redicious) have a look at an EPA report regarding the mines.


Your spouting complete rubbish at this point. And any credibility you had is now gone and your reduced to looking like a tree hugging pseudo environmentalist

jesus, back up the hysterical truck there BX19. I never said 60 jobs for the whole field- and saying i did say that is either lies or plain silliness. I'm talking about per well, which has been quoted. Now maybe they meant 600 in total...sure that sweet f*ck all really with all the tourism we'll lose, and the loss of international buyers for what were perceived to be quality agricultural products.

i never said tara mines was bad, so stop putting words in my mouth. I said it was irrelevant to fracking. Whole different ball game- as different as Football to Rugby. Never once did i say tara was bad. You're openly telling lies there by saying i had a problem with tara mines.

And Bertie sealing Coilltes assets by law is very relevant. It's an example of a politician in office doing something that he tried to benefit from AFTER political office. That's relevant here, because decisions could be taken that wont benefit anyone but the companies and the politicians after office with sweet consulting positions etc. It happens openly in the US, it hass happened here, and it will happen again .We'll pay the market rate for gas- end of story. And we'll see sweet f*ck all revenue.


Youre really losing the run of yourself BX19, i suggest you take a breath there and calm down. You're saying i said things which i didnt. Then youre saying i've lost all credibility because i said things which i actually havent'.

I think you're the one losing credibility, you sound pretty desperate at this point. Anything ive said is all backed up on the last few pages and unedited since yesterday or the day before for spelling mistakes.

MOSSAD

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

Hi Mossad. Can you tellme...how many unknown chemicals are pumped with millions of gallons of water into a zinc mine? How many chemical runoffs are possible into the water tables of the biggest underground aquifer in the country? How many zinc mines were proposed? Was it one, or was it a few hundred 200 metre long eyesores?

Your comparison is completely irrelevant. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury please disregard the comments of the gentleman from the Mossad.:) He's trying to muddy the waters of what is already a difficult subject to decide upon.

Major Fail Mossad.

What's the first thing that comes to mind with the word lead or heavy metals? I've put this to several people and the answers are lead poisoning ,toxicity, contaminated groundwater, to name but a few. "Mining" evokes a similar response.
Tara Mines/Boliden is located in the best agricultural ground. There has been no loss of production/quality of agri produce in the area since this enormous deposit was tapped. My point is that today with so many uninformed twits out there, it wouldn't stand a chance in hell.
An independent geologist on Frontline spoke of the disinformation out there about fracking. Those geologists I know are educated and by necessity have a good scientific grounding.
Show me the poisoned water from Tara and the resultant human casualties and the environmental degradation implicit in your response to my post.
If it were so, I'd expect the entire population of Meath to react like you-notably a severe decline in mental functioning-were they suffering from lead poisoning.
Ten years ago in Co Clare, the first windfarm was proposed. The anti-windfarm group put out the following information: Cattle would be driven mad by the noise, groundwater would be contaminated, pregnant women, were they to look upon a spinning turbine wiould spontaneously abort....need I say anymore?
It appears that those who shout loudest may win the day- personally I want a scientific weighing of the pros and cons of fracking, and if it can be done in an environmentally safe way, with the significant royalties benefitting the landowner and the exchequer, then frack away.
You appear to be oblivious to the increasing raft of restrictions on landowners who attempt to make a living from the land, but who are prevented by a lazy one size-fits all approach to environmental protection.
A road construction project in Clare has just been postponed because a frog colony is spawning....how about removing the spawn to a safer place? Problem solved.
PS your antisemitic undertone is also noted

Eric Cartman

if the government got a euro for every time pcworldisajoke said 'muddy the waters' then maybe the fracking wouldnt be needed

yermanoffthetv

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

[1]The impact on tourism, our image abroad, the possible effects of spills (that have happened with alarming frequency around the world), and the negligible impact on jobs makes this just a bad option for Ireland. Couple that with the fact that we wont control the gas, nor how much we pay for it, and it's a no brainer- we should wait for better tech in years to come.

[2]And the notion that one well will produce 600 jobs, as has been put forward by some , is an example of the disinformation im talking about.

[3]The way forward for this country, the way to get a much needed tourism boost- is to say Hello world, there will never be fracking here- Ireland will stay as it is. The current public profile of fracking aborad would mean this message would have an instant impact. This way, we keep our current jobs, and get a who.le hell of alot more. With fracking, it's lose lose no matter which way things go.

[4]And the whole world is forgetting about green energy, including our government- which is what we should really be concentrating on. Our government are lackeys though, and theyre thinking of themselves, and after politics.

If someone can give me a good argument against us differentiating ourselves and saying to the world- NO FRACKING HERE, JUST ONE MORE REASON TO COME VISIT IRELAND, i'd like to hear it.

[1] You know whats worse for our tourism, our crap roads,binge drinking and ripoff prices (caused in part by high energy prices!) Yes the enviroment is exremely important and pressure should be applied to make sure the highest standards of safeguards are in place and projects are regulary monitered by the EPA.Energy diversity is needed to insure more competition, security and lower prices.If your so bothered about ownership of the gas why arent you out lobbing for they government to develop a energy semistate company?

[2] Hmm ill admit id be sceptical about that figure too but if you look and indirect jobs eg catering, security, haulage, admin etc id say you would get a few hundred if you looked at a complete supply chain.

[3] The current public profile of Ireland is were broke and economy is in a bad way, the empty shops are an eyesore and hurting or image. A few turbines and some eco-rambelers isnt going to save us. The way forward is getting investment in and showing everone were open for business. With more cuts on the way maybe the tax revenue could save some services or could be given as business startup grants.
[4] Nobody is forgetting about green energy. It makes alot of sense, but its not enough on its own.

Your last statement is a bit daft. Id dont think anyone would say "Im not going to Ireland, they frack there!" hows about that for an arguement?

Mycroft H

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

bx19- i never said anything about 60 people. What you on about??

i did put a link up of a well and asked someone to explain where 600 jobs clme from. Can you answwr that one ? thanks

Well you sorta did. Now unless my maths is wrong a tenth of 600 is 60.

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

And the notion that one well is going to employ 600 people is the most bizarre stat ive heard in a long long time. The number wont be a tenth of that. This stuff would never be profitable if that were the case.

Honestly 600 is a reasonable figure for whole entire operation. There is going to have to be a lot of qualified skilled personnel for a drilling operation, people like geochemists, engineers, seismology experts, hydrologists and thats only for the pre drilling phase. Your forgetting that the truck drivers that move equipment about, the maintenance specialists to maintain the turbines used for fracking and the administrative personnel behind that. Plus indirect jobs to electricians, pubs, shops ect ect. Its really not that easy to imagine those filling a number of 600.

tuppence

Have a goo at this to give a bit of context, the industry getting challenged by Mark Cagney.

http://www.tv3.ie/ireland_am.php?video=44956&locID=1.65.74

Have a look at these peer reviewed reports. There are compiled by concerned people in Leitrim, no agenda just protecting ourselves and our families, and hoping that you will be too. The American EPA report isnt due out til 2013 but the initial Wyoming report down the page is scary reading as its preliminary findings links fracking industry with pollution, with polutants like benzene and arsenic. These local people have had gas companies denying, denying denying culpability and forcing people to bring lawsuits, which is how these companies sadly seem to operate.

Now in Ireland our agrifood industry was worth 8.9 billion in 2011 alone according to recent press release by Simon Coveney, its our good news story, its overachieving. If we were to find benzene in our livestock our food industry would implode. Its potentialy one of our sustainable industries that could be displaced by fracking. The new Chinese market that we are trying to court wont differentiate between Leitrim and Laois if things go wrong, and maybe pull out before then if we were to go ahead and leave ourselves open to risk ...would you blame them? We have a green brand in farming and tourism that makes us marketable lets keep it, It makes economic sense. And thats before we get into public health cos sadly no one seems to care. (that to me says something in itself )

http://frackingfreeireland.org/reports/

emo72

jesus christ. cant believe this is even been considered. our agri, our tourism, our greenness is far more valuable.

tuppence

And then for those who would like to join us in Leitrim, in what is a national issue. This is up to date. Thankyou.

http://frackingfreeireland.org/info-to-download/flyers/

Eric Cartman

emo72 wrote: »

jesus christ. cant believe this is even been considered. our agri, our tourism, our greenness is far more valuable.

Its not like fracking automatically makes letrim ugly and slaughters all your cows and burns farms , greenness - hah , ireland producing its own energy for once would be nice

NakedNNettles

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

And the whole world is forgetting about green energy, including our government- which is what we should really be concentrating on. Our government are lackeys though, and theyre thinking of themselves, and after politics.

If someone can give me a good argument against us differentiating ourselves and saying to the world- NO FRACKING HERE, JUST ONE MORE REASON TO COME VISIT IRELAND, i'd like to hear it.

Green energy isn't cool enough for this country, too clean and too efficient, it's a form of energy for the middle classes. Can't be havin' that in Ireland! :rolleyes:

Now gas on the other hand has us all getting our hands dirty, sH*t water and a sh*t environment, plenty of machinary pumping and pushing with the added bonus of some chemicals that would put a good curry to shame ...a hard days work and all that, look how hard we are, HAVE IT!

F**k treehuggers, hug a gas pipe.

Check out Ardle1's post, he da (educated) man.

ardle1 wrote: »

I dont beat around the bush, and I'm an educated man,, as you speak,, you are obviously a tree hugger "no offence" ... GET MINING AND GET DRILLING A.S.A.P,,, .... Oh by the way we have an environment have we,, I've seen the Great Barrier Reef on TV!!!

For the record i'm against fracking .....but just looking at it from a fracking frackers point of view.

MOSSAD