Actuarial Science

paulo6891

Hi,

I'm not sure where else to post this, but I'm thinking about enrolling for the Higher Diploma in Actuarial Science, where you get exemptions from 8 exams.

My question is this, does anyone here have any experience with the actuary exams? Would it be possible to just study for them yourself and avoid a return to college?

Thanks

alan4cult

Ya I'm doing the full 4 year BAFS degree at UCD. With this degree and the diploma you get exemptions from the Core Technical Exams (up to 8 of them) and CA1 (not available for Diploma).

To do the exams yourself is also possible if you are motivated. You would need to order the course notes from Acted and pay for them and also pay for the exam fees and other costs.

I'm not sure how they compare with the diploma fee, I imagine doing them on your own would be a little cheaper but the cost of being diligent and hard working in order to work alone needs to be taken into account.

paulo6891

Thanks for the reply.

On one hand, getting the diploma would enable me to put 100% of my effort into the exams,.On the other hand, if I was to study them myself with a part time job on the side, I could avoid the 10k fees while also getting money from the work.

When you do one of these courses, are you actually doing the same exams, or is it a case of, if you pass all your separate college exams, we'll let you away with 8 of the actuarial exams?

Which would be more difficult?

Thanks again

alan4cult

paulo6891 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

On one hand, getting the diploma would enable me to put 100% of my effort into the exams,.On the other hand, if I was to study them myself with a part time job on the side, I could avoid the 10k fees while also getting money from the work.

When you do one of these courses, are you actually doing the same exams, or is it a case of, if you pass all your separate college exams, we'll let you away with 8 of the actuarial exams?

Which would be more difficult?

Thanks again

Ya it's exactly what you said. You get exemptions through the college exams you sit.

I imagine doing the actual exams would be more difficult.

rahor

The course is great but there are a few things to be aware of
1. You actually take 5 subjects not 8 and it would be very very difficult to take 8 subjects-some take six subjects but most take five. If you have a good stats background, it's easier to take 6 subjects.
2. You are not guaranteed exemptions at all and people have graduated with none or only 1 or 2 exemptions and they don't just let you pass either. The exemption mark is not the pass mark but rather something like a high 2.1 and this is subject to change annually.
3. If you have not done stats before, you will have a harder time as you are put into 2nd, third and fourth year stats courses immediately. You will pick it up if you put the hard work in though.

You do cover the courses from the institute and the work load is very intensive. If you have a good stats background, it will definately be easier.

Studying for the institute takes a very long time if you have no exemptions and it's harder studying on your own. It is significantly cheaper though but I think it takes a lot longer to go study a subject this way. Most people I know that have gone down this route have said that if they could start again, they would definately do a course like this.
You could try taking CT1 from the institute on your own as you don't have to be a member to take this subject and it's a good way of knowing if you like actuarial science.

Another thing to think of is, getting a trainee position with no exemptions has gotten harder as you are competing with people who have a max of nine.

Have you looked at www.actuaries.org.uk and www.acted.co.uk ?

Also, if you are working part time I would guess that you could possibly take three subjects max at a time. The institute suggests around 150-200 hours per CT but I reckon to be sure of a pass it takes a bit more work than that.

Sorry this reply is very long! In short, I've done both and would recommend the diploma and think it's worth the money. I would recommend that you look at the above websites though to help you make a choice. The discussion forum on the acted website is very help.

Hope that helps

Young_gunner

if u want to qualify as an actuary, definitely do the postgrad - in the long-run (even over the next 4 to 5 years) you'll save yourself a lot of time AND money

(i'm a qualified actuary - feel free to pm me)

paulo6891

Hey guys,

Thanks a lot for your help! Really appreciate it.

I am a qualified engineer but have been working as an odds compiler for a few years. While I wouldn't have the same stats background as some of those who would be studying for these exams, I am not a complete novice either.

It is interesting what you said about doing CT1 and seeing how I feel about it. Would that exam give you a good overall feeling for the profession and the type of work that one would be carrying out?

Thanks again

rahor

Hey,
I suggested CT1 as it is the most cost effective way to get a feel for the exams and the level of study involved for each subject. I think it would give help you decide whether to continue the study on your own approach or go for the hdip. I'm not sure whether it would give you an insight into actuarial work though but someone more qualified would be better placed to answer that.
If you study on your own, you go at your own pace and the cmp notes from acted are very good.
I mentioned stats because I know people from non stats backgrounds were a little overwhelmed at the start of the hdip. It would be helpful to know basic stats like expectations, variance, t-tests, hypothesis tests etc as the classes are with undergrads who would have studied these previously and some courses build on from these.
I think you would be too late to enter for the April sitting at this stage but you could order the notes to read through.
My opinion would be to do this first as you can see what you are letting yourself into doing it by yourself. It's a huge financial committment to do the hdip and it might give you an idea on whether it's worth it or not.

tinkerbell

paulo6891 wrote: »

It is interesting what you said about doing CT1 and seeing how I feel about it. Would that exam give you a good overall feeling for the profession and the type of work that one would be carrying out?

No it won't. CT1 is actually one of the easier subjects. It also doesn't really give you any inclination to what you'd be actually doing while working...

As others have said, doing the course does not guarantee you any exemptions. You definitely won't be doing 8 subjects, it's impossible really to do 8 in the 9 months of that course. You can't just get the 40% pass mark and get an exemption - usually you need to get around 70% for an exemption.

Regarding if it's easier to do them yourself or through the course, I think you'd have difficulty doing them yourself, especially to get 5 or 6 CTs over 2 exam sittings when you have no experience of doing the exams already. If you decided to do them yourself, then I really don't think you'd have the time to have a part-time job either. I think doing the course would be the best bet.

Pythia

Would you not consider looking for a job in the area and getting the employer to pay for it all? I moved into actuarial in 2010 after 3 years in another industry and they are paying for all my study now. Employers saw the relevance of my previous experience to their field, although it was not directly related.

I now have 2 CTs left and am sitting CA1 this time around. I found it fine getting back into study and have passed everything first time so far.

I find the exams aren't much related to what I do as an actuary but they need to be passed to rise up the ranks and each pass increases your salary which is nice.

jakeb33

I've just finished the CTs and I did them all through the profession. I wish I had known about the Diploma as it is quicker route to qualifications. This is mainly because the UCD exams are less difficult than the profession exams. I would recommend doing CT3,4,5,6 and 8 and doing the the rest once you start working or even before you start the Diploma. CT1,2 and 7 (expecially 7) are much less difficult than the rest.

I would also recommend General insurance over Life as a choice of career. I moved from Life to General recently and I have no regrets.

Best of luck in your studies.

Pythia

jakeb33 wrote: »

I would also recommend General insurance over Life as a choice of career. I moved from Life to General recently and I have no regrets.

Definitely, I work in GI and to me it seems much more interesting and varied than Life.

tinkerbell

^^ Completely disagree with you both! I guess it depends though which area of Life that you both worked in previously.

pcaca

I'm considering doing exactly what pythia has described and applying for an actuary training scheme. I've been working as an engineer for the past 4 years and I'm trying to get into the financial services sector. What advise would you give me in trying to make this change possible? What company's do these actuary training schemes?

Young_gunner

pcaca wrote: »

I'm considering doing exactly what pythia has described and applying for an actuary training scheme. I've been working as an engineer for the past 4 years and I'm trying to get into the financial services sector. What advise would you give me in trying to make this change possible? What company's do these actuary training schemes?

have you a primary degree? if so look into the postgrad actuarial course in UCD

pcaca

Young_gunner wrote: »

have you a primary degree? if so look into the postgrad actuarial course in UCD

I have a primary degree and masters in civil engineering. I've looked into the postgrad in actuary in UCD but cost of it is putting me off so I'd hope to get a trainee position. Is it difficult to get these trainee jobs given that I haven't studied actuarial science?

Young_gunner

you're still better to do the course, its easier to get a role and you'd earn a higher salary

Mardy Bum

pcaca wrote: »

I have a primary degree and masters in civil engineering. I've looked into the postgrad in actuary in UCD but cost of it is putting me off so I'd hope to get a trainee position. Is it difficult to get these trainee jobs given that I haven't studied actuarial science?

The fact you won't have any of the exams at all done I would imagine it would be.

Pythia

I would look into doing CT1 as a non-member. Also, see if you are eligible for any exemptions, this could help. You should think about talking to a recruiter, for example from Acumen who are a big actuarial recruiter. They may be able to give you some help.

Most life and general insurers have a study scheme. Some only have a very small handful of people studying (like my firm which only has 3 people) and some have a very big one (like my old company).

There are also a lot more jobs in the UK from what I can see, maybe you would consider there too...

sjc05

I am trying to decide whether to go back and do the Hdip in UCD or try and get in as a trainee somewhere. To make it worthwhile to do the Hdip you would need to get all 8 exemptions which seems a big ask (does anyone know what kind of percent you would need to average to get all 8). I have no exemptions at the minute but have a good maths backround (B.Sc in Maths). From talking to a few people in the profession it is getting rarer and rarer for firms to take on trainees with no exemptions (regardless of backround). I have a few interviews coming up (including a few in UK) and can't decide which is the best option. All comments welcome.

Young_gunner

sjc05 wrote: »

I am trying to decide whether to go back and do the Hdip in UCD or try and get in as a trainee somewhere. To make it worthwhile to do the Hdip you would need to get all 8 exemptions which seems a big ask (does anyone know what kind of percent you would need to average to get all 8). I have no exemptions at the minute but have a good maths backround (B.Sc in Maths). From talking to a few people in the profession it is getting rarer and rarer for firms to take on trainees with no exemptions (regardless of backround). I have a few interviews coming up (including a few in UK) and can't decide which is the best option. All comments welcome.

if it were me, i'd still do the ucd hdip

DANCE111

Hope this helps, see Page 2 Point #10:

http://www.ucd.ie/statdept/aactstat/bafs_one/Infbaf09_1.pdf

yesman2000

Sorry to bump an old thread but i've just a few questions and would be grateful for any advice/thoughts. I'm currently doing an accounting degree along with economics and finance subjects. The maths obviously wouldn't come close to that of any actuarial degree.
Would I stand any chance of getting into the higher diploma in UCD, or does anyone have any experience of someone who did an accounting/commerce degree doing it.
Would I get any professional exemptions as I know there's one module on Financial Reporting and an other on Intermediate Economics, both of which I've covered.
Also, I didn't concentrate on Maths at LC for very naive reasons. Would it be worth repeating, I'd be confident of a high B or an A at least with a bit of work.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

misslt

yesman2000 wrote: »

Sorry to bump an old thread but i've just a few questions and would be grateful for any advice/thoughts. I'm currently doing an accounting degree along with economics and finance subjects. The maths obviously wouldn't come close to that of any actuarial degree.
Would I stand any chance of getting into the higher diploma in UCD, or does anyone have any experience of someone who did an accounting/commerce degree doing it.
Would I get any professional exemptions as I know there's one module on Financial Reporting and an other on Intermediate Economics, both of which I've covered.
Also, I didn't concentrate on Maths at LC for very naive reasons. Would it be worth repeating, I'd be confident of a high B or an A at least with a bit of work.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Where are you doing your degree? You may be exempt from the accounting exam (CT2 I believe) and CT7, the economics exam. Some universities are accredited with the institute for certain subjects/modules, the list is on the professions website.

I have no experience with the Hdip, but I'm currently doing the BAFS degree programme in UCD - so I wouldn't know if you'd be able to get in.

To be honest when it comes to exemption subjects in UCD it's more statistics than Maths, so far anyway - I'm going into my final year in September. Having said that, you will need to be familiar with a fair amount of mathematical stuff such as integration, differentiation, things like that.

Take a look at the professions website, www.actuaries.org.uk at the syllabus(es?) for each subject.

CT1 is financial mathematics and it's available to sit as a non-member, as someone said above. In my experience so far that's the most 'Maths-y' subject, the rest is statistics.

hope this helps somewhat, sorry I don't know any more

yesman2000

misslt wrote: »

Where are you doing your degree? You may be exempt from the accounting exam (CT2 I believe) and CT7, the economics exam. Some universities are accredited with the institute for certain subjects/modules, the list is on the professions website.

I have no experience with the Hdip, but I'm currently doing the BAFS degree programme in UCD - so I wouldn't know if you'd be able to get in.

To be honest when it comes to exemption subjects in UCD it's more statistics than Maths, so far anyway - I'm going into my final year in September. Having said that, you will need to be familiar with a fair amount of mathematical stuff such as integration, differentiation, things like that.

Take a look at the professions website, www.actuaries.org.uk at the syllabus(es?) for each subject.

CT1 is financial mathematics and it's available to sit as a non-member, as someone said above. In my experience so far that's the most 'Maths-y' subject, the rest is statistics.

hope this helps somewhat, sorry I don't know any more

Cheers for that misslt. Loads of info there. Does the course contain many 'business-y' modules as I've seen something on communications- not sure what would be in that. I think I'd be better off emailing directly to see where I stand. Thanks again

misslt

yesman2000 wrote: »

misslt wrote: »

Where are you doing your degree? You may be exempt from the accounting exam (CT2 I believe) and CT7, the economics exam. Some universities are accredited with the institute for certain subjects/modules, the list is on the professions website.

I have no experience with the Hdip, but I'm currently doing the BAFS degree programme in UCD - so I wouldn't know if you'd be able to get in.

To be honest when it comes to exemption subjects in UCD it's more statistics than Maths, so far anyway - I'm going into my final year in September. Having said that, you will need to be familiar with a fair amount of mathematical stuff such as integration, differentiation, things like that.

Take a look at the professions website, www.actuaries.org.uk at the syllabus(es?) for each subject.

CT1 is financial mathematics and it's available to sit as a non-member, as someone said above. In my experience so far that's the most 'Maths-y' subject, the rest is statistics.

hope this helps somewhat, sorry I don't know any more

Cheers for that misslt. Loads of info there. Does the course contain many 'business-y' modules as I've seen something on communications- not sure what would be in that. I think I'd be better off emailing directly to see where I stand. Thanks again

There is a communications module, CA2, but I know very little about that at the moment, trying to get my CTs

No problem, hope it works out for you!

If you've any more questions I can try my best to answer them!

paulo6891

Hi,

Just to revisit this thread, it looks like I am going to go through with these exams. Unfortunately CT1 is the only exam that I can do next spring (was hoping to do 1 or 2 more, but cant as I'm a non member).

Does anyone know what exactly is the difference between the graduate diploma in actuarial sciences and the MSc in Actuarial sciences, both from UCD?

Both seem to have the same entry requirements, it's 1k more for the MSc although there would possibly be more gravitas in having that on the cv.

Mardy Bum

paulo6891 wrote: »

Hi,

Just to revisit this thread, it looks like I am going to go through with these exams. Unfortunately CT1 is the only exam that I can do next spring (was hoping to do 1 or 2 more, but cant as I'm a non member).

Does anyone know what exactly is the difference between the graduate diploma in actuarial sciences and the MSc in Actuarial sciences, both from UCD?

Both seem to have the same entry requirements, it's 1k more for the MSc although there would possibly be more gravitas in having that on the cv.

There is probably a thesis component in the MSc which the diploma would not require.

Pythia

paulo6891 wrote: »

Hi,

Just to revisit this thread, it looks like I am going to go through with these exams. Unfortunately CT1 is the only exam that I can do next spring (was hoping to do 1 or 2 more, but cant as I'm a non member).

Does anyone know what exactly is the difference between the graduate diploma in actuarial sciences and the MSc in Actuarial sciences, both from UCD?

Both seem to have the same entry requirements, it's 1k more for the MSc although there would possibly be more gravitas in having that on the cv.

Did you actually read the descriptions? You can see that this part is clearly different in the Masters:

In semester 3 you will undertake independent research in an area of actuarial science under the supervision of a member of the School of Mathematical Sciences with the aim of submitting a thesis on your research findings at the end of the semester. Depending on your subject choices in semesters 1 and 2 you may also undertake advanced modules in finance at the UCD Smurfit School of Business – the modules offered will vary from year to year but possible topics may include regulation, corporate governance, ethics in finance, asset valuation, and financial management.

Personally I would do the diploma. I don't see how a masters is more valuable if you are sure you want to become an actuary. I don't think my own company would pay you more, for example, because you have a masters not a dip.

If you think you might want do something else afterwards, then the masters might be better. If it's literally just to get exemptions then do the dip.

paulo6891

Calm down there Pythia, I did read the description and the part that you quoted but did not understand it. That is why I asked. I did not know if the thesis etc meant that you have to do less exams etc. Or if you have to do the same exams in both, what is the extra benefit of the masters. Also, I know that people who do the diploma usually don't get all of their exemptions, I imagine that's because they either don't pass all the exams or that they decide to take less modules. If you get the masters degree, do you automatically get all of the exemptions or does it depend on how you do in different aspects of the program? Things like that. I was on the site and saw all of that info that you quoted, so I think it's a little unfair to imply laziness on my part. I just thought that someone here may know, I have sent an email and am awaiting a reply but since people have previously been very helpful on this thread, I thought I'd give it a shot.

I personally think that a masters would look better on a cv than the diploma, but that's just me.

Browney7

paulo6891 wrote: »

Calm down there Pythia, I did read the description and the part that you quoted but did not understand it. That is why I asked. I did not know if the thesis etc meant that you have to do less exams etc. Or if you have to do the same exams in both, what is the extra benefit of the masters. Also, I know that people who do the diploma usually don't get all of their exemptions, I imagine that's because they either don't pass all the exams or that they decide to take less modules. If you get the masters degree, do you automatically get all of the exemptions or does it depend on how you do in different aspects of the program? Things like that. I was on the site and saw all of that info that you quoted, so I think it's a little unfair to imply laziness on my part. I just thought that someone here may know, I have sent an email and am awaiting a reply but since people have previously been very helpful on this thread, I thought I'd give it a shot.

I personally think that a masters would look better on a cv than the diploma, but that's just me.

Maybe worth looking into whether or not the thesis/dissertation would exempt you from an ST. There is an ST0

paulo6891

Thanks for the heads up.

The more I think about it, the more I am leaning towards studying for the exams on my own as opposed to doing the courses.

Yes it would probably be 'easier' to do the courses and get the exemptions, but in this day and age, paying around 12k do do a college course + other student expenses, giving up a decent job and salary for a year and probably facing unemployment at the end of the course makes it a bit too risky methinks.

misslt

paulo6891 wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up.

The more I think about it, the more I am leaning towards studying for the exams on my own as opposed to doing the courses.

Yes it would probably be 'easier' to do the courses and get the exemptions, but in this day and age, paying around 12k do do a college course + other student expenses, giving up a decent job and salary for a year and probably facing unemployment at the end of the course makes it a bit too risky methinks.

I'd probably disagree.

Employment prospects will be decent if you're a trainee actuary with some exemptions. Studying for the institute exams from scratch can be difficult while working - I'm not saying impossible, but difficult. By doing the diploma/masters you have the added benefit of lecturers, continuous assessment etc. I'm not sure if you're currently working in an actuarial environment but if not I'd say it will be easier to be taken on as a trainee and to take part in a company's study programme if you have some exemptions/exams already - that's just my opinion!

I would also recommend the dip over the masters if you want to be an actuary, once you've qualified with the profession your degree/whatever tends to matter less!

Studying for the exams on your own without financial assistance from a study programme can be very expensive as you have institute membership fees, exam fees and fees for the materials etc!

Just my 2c!

Pythia

paulo6891 wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up.

The more I think about it, the more I am leaning towards studying for the exams on my own as opposed to doing the courses.

Yes it would probably be 'easier' to do the courses and get the exemptions, but in this day and age, paying around 12k do do a college course + other student expenses, giving up a decent job and salary for a year and probably facing unemployment at the end of the course makes it a bit too risky methinks.

I would try to get a job in actuarial and get the employer to pay for all the exams. I'm not sure what your background is but I managed to move from a different area into actuarial a few years after I had left college. If you are finding it hard to get the foot in the door for interviews, perhaps talk to a recruiter and see what their take on you is.

I would say that if I was reviewing your CV for a job, I would not care that you had done a Masters over a Dip. I would be more interested in exemptions and skills like IT, communication, what you know about actuarial etc over a thesis.

Some companies like people with a lot of exemptions and some don't. It's often down to the manager and how he did it. The argument against exemptions is that you qualify too quickly with too many and you are in a funny position as you aren't very experienced so they don't want to pay you a qualified salary.

Maybe if you let us know your background we can give more specific answers.

DrAdrianOHagan

To the posters on this thread, I would just like to take the opportunity to encourage you all to contact us directly at UCD if you are interested in any of our programmes. In particular, I am the Director of UCD Postgraduate Actuarial Science (adrian.ohagan@ucd.ie) and will be able to give comprehensive answers to any questions about qualifying, the differences between the MSc and the Graduate Diploma in Actuarial Science at UCD, and other items you may require clarification on.

In brief, a common question that has appeared on this thread is the difference between the MSc and the Graduate Diploma.

There are a few clear differentials.

1) The MSc requires 10 extra teaching credits, meaning students have the opportunity to study for an addditional CT exam directly as part of the qualification.

2) There are opportunities for MSc students to complete their research thesis in the form of a paid actuarial work placement, and we have already been successful in arranging this for some of the students this year.

3) A number of scholarships of 4000euro each are available as financial support for the MSc.

We will be happy to discuss these in further detail should you have further interest in applying for the programme.

Best regards,

Dr Adrian O'Hagan