gearing for hills

lennymc

Im doing the raid pyrenee this year with a couple of other boardsies (hills is probably an understatement) and Im thinking about gearing, The bike I will probably bring has a compact chainset (50 34) and a cassette 12 25 (i think). I have an 11 28 at home which I will try, but, if that doesnt work, I was looking at mtb cassettes. What would be required for changing to an mtb cassette? im thinking chain, cassette and rear derailleur. Its to work with sram apex shifters. Anything else required? Would the deraileur have to be a sram? sram and shimano cassettes are interchangeable afaik,.

any thoughts welcome.

Thanks
Lenny

Chips Lovell

Is it an Apex rear mech you have as well?

budgie001

A similar question. Im riding the Tour of Flanders this year. What gearing would you recommend with a 39 chainring?

Many thanks

lennymc

yes

Jawgap

SRAM do a 12-32 in th Apex groupset

Raam

budgie001 wrote: »

A similar question. Im riding the Tour of Flanders this year. What gearing would you recommend with a 39 chainring?

Many thanks

I would change the 39 to a 42 and get an 11-21 cassette.

AstraMonti

The only issue I can see with a 12-32 for example is that it would be too jumpy.
12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, 24, 32
21 to 24.. and especially the 24 to 32 is a huge jump, make sure you test it thoroughly before the trip otherwise it might make you more harm than good.

Chips Lovell

lennymc wrote: »

yes

Jawgap wrote: »

SRAM do a 12-32 in th Apex groupset

Yep, as Jawgap said, Sram do a 12-32 cassette, so no need to go mickeying around with mountain bike stuff.

Having said that, if you have a compact, I think that Apex cassette is quite extreme. 34-28 sounds like more than enough for your smallest gear.

lennymc

looking at srams website - they do an 11-32 with 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 19, 22, 25, 28, 32 so not so much of a jump as the 12-32. I think ill go for one of those next payday then find some hills. I just dont want to be caught short in the pyrenees.

edit - or as vladimir says, try the 11 28 first

budgie001

Thanks Raam, you think a 21 will be enough?. I was afraid I'd need a 26 or 28?

AstraMonti

I am on Vlad on that, probably the 32 is a bit extreme, try the 28 first and see how it feels. Go on hills with consistent high incline, slaughter hill is one that comes to mind. Also with the 32 you will probably need few more links in the chain as well.

Jawgap

Some of the reviews I've ready suggest the Apex 12-32 is "gappy" - but there is no need to change the derailleur or hanger to get it to fit. Saying that, people who get it, do so for reasons of climbing more than anything else and for that it's supposed to work very well.

I anticipate making a similar purchase in the spring for an event in the summer:)


I think if you put an MTB cassette on you'll need to make modifications to the rear set up.

Raam

budgie001 wrote: »

Thanks Raam, you think a 21 will be enough?. I was afraid I'd need a 26 or 28?

It was enough for this guy when I saw him go past...

Chips Lovell

Have you checked out the gradients on the routes you'll be riding? Because often with the big mountains on the continent, the challenge is the more in the length of the climbs rather than how steep they are.

fat bloke

budgie001 wrote: »

Thanks Raam, you think a 21 will be enough?. I was afraid I'd need a 26 or 28?

Lest Raam misplaced a smilie, and for fear you take him seriously....

don't do that!.

I'm tour-of-Flandersing myself and I'm sticking with the compact chainring, and whatever cassette I have on the back, think it's a 25, which is loads, the hills are sharp and short. And I've still plenty of big ring ratios for flat-cobbled rouleuring at 65kph (in my dreams...).

To be honest, I'd say with the crowds on each hill and people stopping in front of you and forcing you off, the best modification you could make would be a comfortable pair of cleat-less walking shoes

Raam

Yeah they are steep feckers. I did it on a compact. Not sure what was on the back. Probably a 25. I got a lend of a bike for it from someone who lives near there. Well, closer to Flanders than me anyway. On the cobbles you really have to grind it out if they are slippy cos if you standup to pedal, the rear wheel slips out. Unless you are pro or awesome, of which I am neither.

Lumen

3W/kg @ 60rpm (sustainable for an hour or more for most fit cyclists) gives about 9kph up a 10% slope on a 34-28.

You need a unusually evil climb or a fair bit of weight for a 32 sprocket to be necessary on a compact chainset.

07Lapierre

What gearing would you guys suggest for La Marmotte?

lennymc

Lumen wrote: »

3W/kg @ 60rpm (sustainable for an hour or more for most fit cyclists) gives about 9kph up a 10% slope on a 34-28.

You need a unusually evil climb or a fair bit of weight for a 32 sprocket to be necessary on a compact chainset.

most of that made no sense to me. I think.

Lumen

lennymc wrote: »

most of that made no sense to me. I think.

cdaly_

lennymc wrote: »

looking at srams website - they do an 11-32 with 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 19, 22, 25, 28, 32 so not so much of a jump as the 12-32. I think ill go for one of those next payday then find some hills. I just dont want to be caught short in the pyrenees.

Lumen wrote: »

3W/kg @ 60rpm (sustainable for an hour or more for most fit cyclists) gives about 9kph up a 10% slope on a 34-28.

You need a unusually evil climb or a fair bit of weight for a 32 sprocket to be necessary on a compact chainset.

I'm running a 13-28t with 24,28 as the last two. I don't find that jump too much when climbing. I find I'm grateful indeed for 30-28 at times in Wicklow which wouldn't be far off 34-32.

Lenny, have you become much floatier than last I saw you?...

ROK ON

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Have you checked out the gradients on the routes you'll be riding? Because often with the big mountains on the continent, the challenge is the more in the length of the climbs rather than how steep they are.

+1

Lenny. I have cycled a few of the Pyrenean climbs previously.
At the time I weighed about 14 stone (12lbs lighter than I am now).

I used a triple with IIRC a 12-25 on the reas casette. This gave me 31.5 gear inches.

My plan this time is to use a lighter bike and be lighter than the last time.

My choice of gearing will more than likley be a compact with an 11/28. This will give me an easy gear of 31.9 gear inches.
http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/

I agree with Vlad. The gradient on the Tourmalet doesnt really get steep until the end. But it is long, very very long. You are also climbing way before the official start of the climb - so it is longer than advertised so to speak. To my mind the Tourmalet is like the Conor Pass in Kerry but four times longer.

I am used to climbing 5-6k climbs in that there are lots of them in Ireland. It is useful to break the longer French climbs into 5-6km chunks and to then take them on individually. Given that It will be the end of July, this could be useful as one can get off to get water refills every 6km or so. There is no obligation on anyone (other than a perverse since of fun) to tear up the climbs.

By comparison the Aspin and the Peyresourde are relatively easy. The Aspin in fact has a very similar gradient and length to the Sally Gap, but is more constant, whereas the clibs up to the Sally Gap are more stop start.


The last time I found that the climbs were interminably lon. As no one really fancies taking, it is a long time to be left suffer slowly. Its not the gradient that is the killer, but the length. The French seem to be reasonably decent roadbuilders in the mountains, in that the gradient is stable for much of the way. This time I will be brining an ipod with come music to help me pass the time whilst climbing.

There is one climb that has a fearsome reputation (the Marie Blanque) - but that is optional as it is not on the official Raid route. At the end of day one you can go over the Marie Blanque or around it. Given that we will be doing 200km on day one, I will be going around it and saving my powder for days 2 and three which have significantly more climbing. The junction comes at the 170km point.

While I was in the Pyrenees I never felt that I needed more gears (apart from one climb which we are not going over). I needed shorter climbs.

In terms of training I am purposefully training on an 34/25, on my heavy aluminium bike. I will put the 11/28 on the lighter carbon bike and only use that nearer the date.

When I am out training I am concentrating on three things while climbing
(1) climb more efficiently in terms of HR,
(2) work on increasing my cadence,
(3) focus on my VAM on each of my local climbs. Currently around 600m per hour. I would love to get this up toward 800 by June. I know this may not be a perfect measurement, but as I am only comparing it on the same climbs it is an apples for apples comparison.
I want to climb faster so that I can recover more. For me 8 hours is a long day, I would rather not spend too many days of 10 hours plus in the saddle.

feck sake lads

lenny if you can't get up those climbs in 34x28 sell the bike :D
seriously buddy you have loads of gears .

NeedMoreGears

I changed from a 12-26 to 11-30 on a 50/34 compact. It was an shimano 8-speed HG40 11 -13 -15 -17 - 20 - 23 - 26 - 30T. I found the 34/30 great on climbs like Mount Leinster (it saved me from zig-zagging up the road - must be in the sub 3w/kg category). Unfortunately that bike was nicked and now I'm back at 11-28 10 speed which I find is plenty for getting up most hills.

lennymc

cdaly_ wrote: »

Lenny, have you become much floatier than last I saw you?...

define floatier

@rok on - thanks very much for that - sounds like good solid advice. I think I just want to be prepared - dont want to get there and wish i had another gear

@fsl - cheers. when we doing the mast again?

velopeloton

On Col de Marie Blanque and Col de Portet d'Aspet there are sections of 18%. Marie Blanque is the hardest of the two. Col du Tourmalet is the longest and the hardest on the route, officially 19km long it is actually 29km from the lowest point in Gorge de Luz and climbs almost 1700 metres. I would say if you need more than a 34-28 for any climbs in Ireland then you need to do a lot of training before thinking about the Raid.

To finish the raid each day in a reasonable time you need to climb at an average of 10kph. That is also a good speed as it allows you to stay ahead of the flies, any slower and they will be all over you. Also bear in mind that late July could have temperatures in the mid 30's which makes climbing a lot harder. To "enjoy" the Raid you would need to be able to do Sally Gap, Connor Pass or similar, very comfortably in a 39-25.

When the pro are racing here the best climbers are climbing in a 39-19, maybe less and the sprinters in 39-23. For Marie Blanque the climbers use 39-23 and the sprinters 39-27.

lennymc

velopeleton_ wrote: »

To "enjoy" the Raid you would need to be able to do Sally Gap, Connor Pass or similar, very comfortably in a 39-25.

Thanks velo. Ive done the sally gap with a 39 28 last year when i was about 17 kgs heavier. It wasnt too bad - i didnt break any records obviously. Not sure what the average speed was. Ill be back there training (weather dependant) as soon as possible.

cdaly_

lennymc wrote: »

define floatier

Floatier: adj: That quality attributed to ones companion cyclists who, faced with a sharp incline, float gracefully up while one struggles manfully to even stay upright...

lennymc

cdaly_ wrote: »

Floatier: adj: That quality attributed to ones companion cyclists who, faced with a sharp incline, float gracefully up while one struggles manfully to even stay upright...

im still in the struggle manfully camp.

Ill post another thread closer to the time, but the charity cycle this year is called 'into the west' and is along the same format as last year, but rather than the 26 counties, we are going into the west and back. Any interest? My mammy is coming along as support again and bringing more full irish breakfasts!!

cdaly_

Who knows. I'd probably have to find another source of funds having bled my colleagues dry last year!

lennymc

no pbother cdaly - will talk to you closer to the time.

Heres another question - I have a turbo at home, is there anyway to accurately simulate a 7% incline on this using the resistance, or is it just a gut feeling thing. i dont have a power meter to use.

feck sake lads

nothing like the real thing lenny go out and train on hills if you want to be good on hills simples.;) turbo trainers are good for keeping your legs warm before a good hard spin;)
see i can't for the life of me figure this one out i see all the lads in our group killing them selfs to get to the top of the steepest hill WHY,
unless you actually race or have a dream of becoming a pro then why do this to your mind and body . ffs go out and enjoy your spins and if you can get to the top of a climb without been bollocks and then come home frest as when you went out . then you know your enjoying this cycling lark.
so i'm going out now to freeze my ass off for an hour or so just me and bob dylan out for the craic.:D

Lumen

IMO a turbo or flat road is better for improving climbing than hilly Irish roads which tend to be blighted by descents.

You just need to be able to ride at a hard steady pace for an hour or two, which you can do with a HRM. If you expect to be limited by gearing then try doing this at a low cadence (e.g. 60-70rpm), but FWIW I've read that low cadence "strength training" like this is arguably pointless as it doesn't trigger any useful adaptations.

ROK ON

@Lumen, @Lenny

Yes you should train hard in order to simulate the effort required going up hills, but that assumes that all challenges are physical, which they are not. It would be far easier to climb hills if one was trim, fit and strong.

However, for many people, climbing is as much mental effort as a physical one. One way i have found to cure this is to climb hills. Nothing is as good for climbing hills, as climbing hills is. Once you have done it, then you know that you can recreate that and do it again. That is the mental side. If you know how your legs felt with the lactic acid building up and how the back of your throat burned as you struggled for air and tried to keep your HR under control, and you have pushed beyond that point - then you can do it again and again.

When I look at a route that has long climbs that I dont know, I break the climbs down into shorter segments. I then try to recall climbs that i have done with similar characteristics in terms of grade and length. I then know that I have climbed a similar climb. For example, if I am doing a sportif that has a climb with a tough gradient, there is a climb near where I live that is only 2km lon, but the gradient for the last 1km is severe.I always do this, just to remind my head and legs that it is doabale. Might be hocus pocus but it works for me.

I found that climbing very very long climbs it got to a stage that was purely mental. That is on a road that is say 7% but steady, once you are in a gear you can push that gear indefinitely without your effort spiking and going in debt. But mentally it is torture to know that having climbed for say an hour, that you have the bones of an hour left to do.

Lenny in the pyrenees, it is the engine and the mind of the driver that will be more important than the gearing choices, for most of the climbs.

However in saying that I disagree with Velopeleton in that regard on gearing. I dont believe that one needs to be able to go up the likes of Conor Pass/Sally Gap in 39/25 in order to enjoy the Raid. For sure it would be a lot more enjoyable if one could, but having only attempted both of those climbs on a 34/25 or 34/27, I never felt that I couldnt get up the Tourmalet or Hautacam. (it was simply that I was so slow it took an extraordinarily long time). However I do believe that he is 100% correct in targeting a lower speed limit that you can climb above.

My attitude is that if I can improve from say 12km on 5km long climbs now to say 14/15km by June, then come the Raid I should be able to manage greater than 10km avg over a 15km 7% climb. That is my aim.

Lumen

ROK ON wrote: »

However, for many people, climbing is as much mental effort as a physical one

Surely one just has to start pedalling at the bottom and stop at the top?

maloner

Last year I did my first big climb and did Mont Ventoux in France. 21km at 8%.

http://ridewithgps.com/trips/408067

I rented bikes at the bottom of the climb and got a triple with probably a 27 (can't be certain to be honest) and it was great. I enjoy climbing and was in decent shape but the extra gearing (I've a compact at home) made it pretty straightforward even though I'd never done anything like that before. I didn't set any records (2 hours 10 - 9.8km/h) but it was my first long climb so didn't know how hard to push it.

I would have made it up on my own bike with the compact, but the triple made things very manageable.

The 10km section through the woods is 10% average and never drops below 9% and with the triple I was able to get into an easy rhythm without really killing myself at any stage.

I'd be happy enough to take a compact next time, but if the gears are there I'll use em.

PS: 5 foot 10, 83kgs

ROK ON

Lumen wrote: »

Surely one just has to start pedalling at the bottom and stop at the top?

Maybe for you. But you would fall into the trim, fit and strong category more than i would. Most fat blokes that I know who climb well (for their size) do so on the basis that they push beyond what their body or Garmin etc etc telss them is possible and have confidence that they can do it.
Face it Lumen, unless you have ccycled in the body of a fat man, you will not really appreciate where I am coming from.

thebouldwhacker

Stopping at the top could be seen as unEuro, careful there....

maloner

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Stopping at the top could be seen as unEuro, careful there....

What if there's a pub? Would be un-Irish not to stop

thebouldwhacker

That would be an ecumenical matter......

thebouldwhacker

ROK ON wrote:

Face it Lumen, unless you have ccycled in the body of a fat man, you will not really appreciate where I am coming from.

Class post, coming in at 1oo kg base atm I hear ya.....

Lumen

ROK ON wrote: »

Most fat blokes that I know who climb well (for their size) do so on the basis that they push beyond what their body or Garmin etc etc telss them is possible and have confidence that they can do it.
Face it Lumen, unless you have ccycled in the body of a fat man, you will not really appreciate where I am coming from.

If I attempted the WW200 on a 53-42/12-23 cassette I would feel the same as you do.

Your slow twitch muscles can only generate so much torque. If your gearing forces you beyond that range you're going to suffer like a dog, regardless of what speed you try to adopt.

There's no such thing as a hard climb, only inappropriate gearing.

Billycake

Lumen wrote: »

If I attempted the WW200 on a 53-42/12-23 cassette I would feel the same as you do.

Your slow twitch muscles can only generate so much torque. If your gearing forces you beyond that range you're going to suffer like a dog, regardless of what speed you try to adopt.

There's no such thing as a hard climb, only inappropriate gearing.

I like that last line - very true indeed!!

There is one other issue that has affected me on alpine climbs recently and thats a back problem. I have over the years always used a compact with 12-25 cassette in the alps however last year my lower back (SI joint in particular) finally put an end to it. I never had a back injury that I was aware of but my back and glutes are still recovering from three weeks riding in the alps in September 2011. It looks like the torque I was putting out even with my cadence in the low to mid 80's combined with a undetected muscular imbalance (and age) caught up with me. I'm doing acte 2 of the etape this year and I'll be changing my usual cassette to something with a 27 or 28 on it before hand.

fat bloke

ROK ON wrote: »

Nothing is as good for climbing hills, as climbing hills is.

I think if Lenny can say that, really quickly, ten times in succession. He'll be well on his way.

lennymc

fat bloke wrote: »

I think if Lenny can say that, really quickly, ten times in succession. He'll be well on his way.

no problem saying it ten times, but doing it ten times would be another story!

seve65

ROK ON wrote: »

@Lumen, @Lenny

...
When I look at a route that has long climbs that I dont know, I break the climbs down into shorter segments. I then try to recall climbs that i have done with similar characteristics in terms of grade and length. I then know that I have climbed a similar climb. For example, if I am doing a sportif that has a climb with a tough gradient, there is a climb near where I live that is only 2km lon, but the gradient for the last 1km is severe.I always do this, just to remind my head and legs that it is doabale. Might be hocus pocus but it works for me....

works for me too. Shanrahan hill in cork, 5.6K @ 7.1%.
http://app.strava.com/segments/657058

Three of those and you have done Galibier etc. No kicker at the end though....! I think you are right about developing your own mental measure of toughness.

Personally for the letape I ended up measuring everything by keeping the heart rate lowish (142), which is a figure i came up with on the day as all my hr stats in the irish weather seemed to go out the window, and it seemed to keep my breathing at a nice level, perhaps too easy, will never know !

Another thing I did was just as a personal mental marker was to make sure I had done at least the same amount of climbing in a day that I was going to do in France. Could be interesting to simulate that this year, as I think we are talking 5k+ climbing.:cool:

fat bloke

I think the psychological thing is good point. There's simply nothing to compare over here on the Emerald Isle. Doesn't matter where you are in Ireland, the summit is going to be max 20 minutes away.
Sitting here I simply can't get my head around the prospect of let's say a 24km climb, at again just say say 10kph. That's the guts of 3 hours constant climbing. Which is extraordinary. So when you heave a sigh, purse your lips, and click into your 34 28 at the bottom of that hill. -You have a langer of a long way to go baby. Add in the potential for 35 degree heat and you could well have your mind cracking before your legs do.

lennymc

fat bloke wrote: »

Doesn't matter where you are in Ireland, the summit is going to be max 20 minutes away.

20 minutes - i wish

The pshycological point is a very good one, I fully expect to be on my own on most of the climbs (and even if I am with anyone, I doubt ill be talking too much) so, like ROK ON, im bringing an ipod, with a selection of music that I hope will inspire me to keep going.

feck sake lads

lenny you will enjoy every pedal stroke ,super smooth tarmac great scenery cycling history sunny warm weather good company man you will have a ball lucky sod, and remember be feckin careful going down the other side ya mad thing;)

lennymc

feck sake lads wrote: »

lenny you will enjoy every pedal stroke ,super smooth tarmac great scenery cycling history sunny warm weather good company man you will have a ball lucky sod, and remember be feckin careful going down the other side ya mad thing;)

looking forward to it allright. im upgrading my brakes tho!!

feck sake lads

lennymc wrote: »

looking forward to it allright. im upgrading my brakes tho!!

yeah might be an idea;) coolstop salmon pads are excellent easy on the rims good stopping power at 70mph.:eek: