Should we apologise for abandoning northern Nationalists?

Merelyme

I saw a similar thread to this subject on another website and I thought it would be interesting to see what people here think.

Our governments and media have long abandoned northern Irish Nationalists. We did this shortly after our Civil War and the War of Independence and it would appear that many of us in the south hold little but scorn for our northern compatriots. I'm referring to ordinary Joe and Jane Soaps up north who consider themselves Irish Nationalists.

This thread is not for whataboutery, it's not for knocking Unionists and it hopes to avoid mention of any of the military factions who were driven by either a desire for equality or a desire to maintain the status quo.

Bottom line is this: should our government apologise for abandoning northern Irish nationalists?

Geekness1234

No.
Openly supporting them would have been detrimental to the well being of the republic.

irishh_bob

Geekness1234 wrote: »

No.
Openly supporting them would have been detrimental to the well being of the republic.

what an unashamedly cowardly and self serving attitude in equal measure

nationalists in the north were abbandoned by the south but it would probabley be regressive to make such an appology when thier is a well supported process in place

KeithAFC

Nothing the Republic could have done. Unless you mean getting Nationalists out of Northern Ireland and settling them in the Republic.

MyKeyG

KeithAFC wrote: »

Nothing the Republic could have done. Unless you mean getting Nationalists out of Northern Ireland and settling them in the Republic.

Yes I'm not quite sure what exactly we were expected to do.

Geekness1234

irishh_bob wrote: »

what an unashamedly cowardly and self serving attitude in equal measure

nationalists in the north were abbandoned by the south but it would probabley be regressive to make such an appology when thier is a well supported process in place

Yes because openly supporting them would have meant happy days for the Republic.

Manach

I'd agree with irishh_bob in that we are one people, and should have done more to express solidarity with those of us living in the North especially and stand up for their right during the past era of poor unionist rule.
However that time is now over with the power-sharing executive and my own personal perferences for the island as a whole is a closer union with our closest neighbour and ally the UK, perhaps to see Irish MPs again in Parliament.

woodoo

Geekness1234 wrote: »

No.
Openly supporting them would have been detrimental to the well being of the republic.

tut tut tut.

The republic is incomplete in my eyes.

I don't feel i have abandoned them at all. I still see them as fellow Irishmen and women. I'm a little bit ashamed by the sort that have basically washed their hands of the Northern Nationalists though. Just like that awful woman that was giving out to Martin McGuinness on one of the presidential debates. Saying he wasn't Irish and the like.

woodoo

KeithAFC wrote: »

Nothing the Republic could have done. Unless you mean getting Nationalists out of Northern Ireland and settling them in the Republic.

Not at all it would have been far better to move irish people en-masse up north at the time.

KeithAFC

woodoo wrote: »

Not at all it would have been far better to move irish people en-masse up north at the time.

Stuff of fantasy. Perhaps Irish nationalists should look at Eamon De Valera to blame. He wanted a Catholic country. He didn't want a 32 county Irish Republic because of the large Orange element in Ulster.

jimmycrackcorm

Having grown up in Donegal and working with people from the north, I am at a complete loss to understand how the op could feel that northern nationalists have been abandoned.

The reality is much different than perception.

Stripey Cat

They abandoned us. While they get free health care, free school books, better education, better infrastructure etc etc (even better tv) we had to put up with corruption, white collar crime, poor housing, gombeen politicians, and drug dealing on an epic scale.

We needed the people of the north (of all denominations) to help us with all this, and provide a bit of "Ulster Organisation", but they were too busy enjoying their better roads.

woodoo

KeithAFC wrote: »

Stuff of fantasy. Perhaps Irish nationalists should look at Eamon De Valera to blame. He wanted a Catholic country. He didn't want a 32 county Irish Republic because of the large Orange element in Ulster.

The island should never have been divided imo. We should have stayed in or left as 32 counties.

jimmycrackcorm

Stripey Cat wrote: »

they were too busy enjoying their better roads.

you obviously haven't driven on the A5 then?

KeithAFC

woodoo wrote: »

The island should never have been divided imo. We should have stayed in or left as 32 counties.

Too late now. Although there is a political way to get a Untied Ireland. I think the longer partition remains and equality exists for all in Northern Ireland, the less chance of it happening grows.

Perhaps Unionism can attempt to make people from a Nationalist background feel Northern Ireland is their own country too. That is certainly the current objective of the DUP. DUP should try and get more jobs in Nationalist areas, improve the surrounding areas, new houses and so on. Keep them happy.

Stripey Cat

Why? Wouldn't they better off out of the Union, and strutting their stuff on a large stage?

They'd have a lot more power in a United Ireland (they would be in government in comfortable coalition with FG within a few years), and the United Kingdom is breaking up anyway.

KeithAFC

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Why? Wouldn't they better off out of the Union, and strutting their stuff on a large stage?

They'd have a lot more power in a United Ireland (they would be in government in comfortable coalition with FG within a few years), and the United Kingdom is breaking up anyway.

Not necessarily. Political opinion can change over time. A lot of people from the Irish nationalist background don't seem to want a United Ireland in regards to the polls.

Daniel S

KeithAFC wrote: »

Nothing the Republic could have done. Unless you mean getting Nationalists out of Northern Ireland and settling them in the Republic.

I really fooking hate when your right...
:pac:

randd1

We probably should. Don't think it would do any harm, and it might stop the us/them divide widening.

Happyman42

As Scotland proves, the desire to self determine will always always exist. You cannot, by oppression, gerrymandering and discrimination quench that desire as Northern Ireland proves. Plantations and resetlement are nearly always temporary arrangements.
We have apologised to Northern Nationalists anyway; by accepting their right to be seen as Irish and underlining their right to be part of our nation, once again.

irishh_bob

KeithAFC wrote: »

Nothing the Republic could have done. Unless you mean getting Nationalists out of Northern Ireland and settling them in the Republic.

a sammy wilson fan eh

irishh_bob

Geekness1234 wrote: »

Yes because openly supporting them would have meant happy days for the Republic.

if churchill had thought along the same lines re_ poland in 1939 , where would we be

irishh_bob

KeithAFC wrote: »

Stuff of fantasy. Perhaps Irish nationalists should look at Eamon De Valera to blame. He wanted a Catholic country. He didn't want a 32 county Irish Republic because of the large Orange element in Ulster.

ulster unionism was much more prone to fusing religon with politics than dev or any politican down here and thats not to say our leaders were a secular bunch

djpbarry

Manach wrote: »

I'd agree with irishh_bob in that we are one people...

Based on what criteria? A common political goal?

Happyman42 wrote: »

As Scotland proves, the desire to self determine will always always exist. You cannot, by oppression, gerrymandering and discrimination quench that desire as Northern Ireland proves.

I’m not sure what proof you’re referring to?

Merelyme

Some very interesting replies. It seems most posters agree we abandoned northern Nationalists but there have been good points made both for and against an apology.

hurling_lad

The notion put forward by the the OP is far too vague to form a basis for discussion.

What acts exactly should we apologise for?
What were the alternative courses that we should have taken?
Who are the 'we' in question?
Would it be equally valid to argue that Northern Ireland should apologise for abandanoning southern unionists?

Without some kind of fleshing out of the question it's impossible to have a decent discussion as everyone can just talk about whatever they want.

djpbarry

Merelyme wrote: »

It seems most posters agree we abandoned northern Nationalists...

I would say most posters are not sure what you mean by "abandoned"?

irishh_bob

djpbarry wrote: »

I would say most posters are not sure what you mean by "abandoned"?

around the time when catholics in the north were being intimidated out of thier homes in mass numbers , the dublin goverment did little apart from utter empty platitudes

KeithAFC

Just seems like another anti 26 county Republic thread to be honest. People need to look at the historical context of the time and why it wasn't so much abandon but why the Republic could do nothing about it.

OS119

Merelyme wrote: »

...abandoned northern Nationalists...

it depends on what you mean by 'abandoned', what you think the Republic could have done to meaningfully improve the lot of nationalists in the north - rather than grab votes for FF - and whether you give consideration to the possibility that in some cases, saying and doing nothing produces a less bad option than protesting and stoking a backlash.

i'll start by saying that i personally believe that the BG holds responsibility for what happened in NI - quite simply it had the power to call the Stormont governments to account for the discrimination they created and the BG failed to do so. now, there are quite good reasons why the BG decided, repeatedly, not to get involved, but the stark truth is that the BG was the legal authority in NI and it failed to exercise that authority. it subcontracted an arm of the state to a load of nutters with an agenda, turned a blind eye to the results because the mess was expensive, and then pretended to be surprised when it all blew up in its face. does that sound familiar to anyone?

my own view is that the inability of the Republic to do anything concrete for those living north of the border was caused by two issues: firstly being poor as piss, and therefore not having anything like the military capability to either take NI, or to even plausably threaten to take NI, and secondly the deliberately difficult political nature of the relationship between Dublin and London that suited internal Irish (or perhaps more accurately, FF) politics, but which meant that the expressed concerns of the IG about NI were able to be dismissed by the BG as the shrill politics of a political enemy, whereas had the relationship been much closer, more cordial, it is possible that the BG might well have taken the IG's protests and warnings much more seriously.

that said, there were internal BG warnings that NI was going to blow in the early to mid-60's, and the BG didn't do much in response.

when people say 'abandoned to their fate' they need to consider that for the vast majority of the Republics history it has been a small, poor, economically and diplomatically isolated state sat next to a large, very powerful state with lots of friends. it had very limited means - and when PIRA started blowing up shopping centres its ability to ask the world for justice for the nationaists in NI turned to ash.

Cork boy 55

We could have joined the warsaw pact and invited soviet missle bases into Ireland
that might have been a game changer

J Cheever Loophole

As a Northern Nationalist, and Irish Man, what depresses me most is the absolute anti Northern Nationalist attitude that I see amongst so many Southern posters on this site. There appears to be an 'us and them' attitude amongst many which I find difficult to accept.

irishh_bob

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

As a Northern Nationalist, and Irish Man, what depresses me most is the absolute anti Northern Nationalist attitude that I see amongst so many Southern posters on this site. There appears to be an 'us and them' attitude amongst many which I find difficult to accept.

it sure is strange , i put it down to our anti nationalist - pro unionist media elements which are very prominent , that and the fact that blaming the victim is a phenomenon the world over , on an individual and group level

Happyman42

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m not sure what proof you’re referring to?

There is obviously a very high level of debate and a desire to have a vote on their independence from England. It's not going to go away any time soon.

Cork boy 55

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

As a Northern Nationalist, and Irish Man, what depresses me most is the absolute anti Northern Nationalist attitude that I see amongst so many Southern posters on this site. There appears to be an 'us and them' attitude amongst many which I find difficult to accept.

Never base your view on anything on an internet forum
A lot of these "west brits" if I dare use the term are

(1) trolling
(2) unionists posting here
(3) brits posting here who live here or UK
(4) scared of sinn fein cause they think they are commies
imagine if martin mcgunniess had been made prez and he took min wage for example.

most of them being trolls, People use internet forum to talk ****e and blow off steam a lot
If you where going to troll a Irish politic website what persona would you adopt? A west brit is the natural default option.

woodoo

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

As a Northern Nationalist, and Irish Man, what depresses me most is the absolute anti Northern Nationalist attitude that I see amongst so many Southern posters on this site. There appears to be an 'us and them' attitude amongst many which I find difficult to accept.

I agree i do wonder what that is all about. Most are probably young snotty nosed student types who really don't know much about the North.

I don't believe boards is representative of the general population though. What i hear here doesn't tally with what i hear out in the real world.

Cork boy 55

woodoo wrote: »

I agree i do wonder what that is all about. Most are probably young snotty nosed student types who really don't know much about the North.

I don't believe boards is representative of the general population though. What i hear here doesn't tally with what i hear out in the real world.

A lot of young people have only seen of the north
is perhaps the omagh bomb and the pointless dissident campagin.
and also elements of the dissidents getting involved in orgainised crime.
The omagh bomb was a defining moment in genertaion Y view of the north
they(the upper middle class ones) also see sinn fein as a socialist threat. This explains some of that.

djpbarry

irishh_bob wrote: »

around the time when catholics in the north were being intimidated out of thier homes in mass numbers , the dublin goverment did little apart from utter empty platitudes

What should they have done?

djpbarry

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

As a Northern Nationalist, and Irish Man, what depresses me most is the absolute anti Northern Nationalist attitude that I see amongst so many Southern posters on this site. There appears to be an 'us and them' attitude amongst many which I find difficult to accept.

That would be because many people in the Republic view Northern Ireland as a strange and slightly intimidating place. It's not difficult to understand why.

djpbarry

Happyman42 wrote: »

There is obviously a very high level of debate and a desire to have a vote on their independence...

Ok? I'm not really sure what your point is?

djpbarry

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

A lot of these "west brits" if I dare use the term are

(1) trolling
(2) unionists posting here
(3) brits posting here who live here or UK
(4) scared of sinn fein cause they think they are commies

(5) People who just happen to have an opinion that differs from yours?

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

...People use internet forum to talk ****e and blow off steam a lot

Pot, meet kettle.

Cork boy 55

djpbarry wrote: »

Pot, meet kettle.

whats that supposed to mean?
abuse from a "mod" i love it great website

J Cheever Loophole

djpbarry wrote: »

That would be because many people in the Republic view Northern Ireland as a strange and slightly intimidating place. It's not difficult to understand why.

Northern Ireland is made up of a Unionist population and a Nationalist population. If the implication of what you are saying is that those Southern posters on here, that have an anti Nationalist attitude, do so on the basis that the North is strange and slightly intimidating, why is that not reflected in an anti Unionist attitude also?

I have difficulty understanding that.

Happyman42

djpbarry wrote: »

Ok? I'm not really sure what your point is?

My bad, I should have quoted the post from KeithAFC that I was responding to. I was just countering his theory that Unionists could somehow make things better, they can't because there will always be a residual desire to be a united island again. Much like Scotland's desire to be independent.

Happyman42

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Northern Ireland is made up of a Unionist population and a Nationalist population. If the implication of what you are saying is that those Southern posters on here, that have an anti Nationalist attitude, do so on the basis that the North is strange and slightly intimidating, why is that not reflected in an anti Unionist attitude also?

I have difficulty understanding that.

You are spot on, imo it is part of the southern inferioity complex. The same one that seems to fall on it's knees or bend over backwards when there is any mention of English royalty. To criticise them or to attempt to make the British establishment accountable, is to be a rabid provo :rolleyes:
They are still afraid to be identified as coming from the same stock as Northern Nationalists ('that crowd up there')

Witness the reticence to protest blatant abuse of nationalists during the troubles while singing the praises of the men of 1916. It's a peculiar schizoprenia that I wish somebody more qualified than me might investigate. It will take a Hollywood blockbuster written by somebody cool and starring Mel Gibson as Martin McGuinness for them to finally claim that they where republicans all along! Then we'll see the uber cool kids on college campuses sporting Che like Gerry Adams t-shirts. Sharpen your pencils Jim Fitzpatrick!

irishh_bob

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Never base your view on anything on an internet forum
A lot of these "west brits" if I dare use the term are

(1) trolling
(2) unionists posting here
(3) brits posting here who live here or UK
(4) scared of sinn fein cause they think they are commies
imagine if martin mcgunniess had been made prez and he took min wage for example.

most of them being trolls, People use internet forum to talk ****e and blow off steam a lot
If you where going to troll a Irish politic website what persona would you adopt? A west brit is the natural default option.

im not sure its any of those things in the main , a lot of people are just apathetic about the whole thing and see northern ireland as a place full of trouble makers

woodoo

Happyman42 wrote: »

It will take a Hollywood blockbuster written by somebody cool and starring Mel Gibson as Martin McGuinness for them to finally claim that they where republicans all along! Then we'll see the uber cool kids on college campuses sporting Che like Gerry Adams t-shirts. Sharpen your pencils Jim Fitzpatrick!

Lol, So true.

The provo element is important in that attitude, to care about NI or to want a united ireland is to be a provo. Alot of people are railing against that now. Its almost become cool to say you don't care about NI and to say its just Britain.

irishh_bob

Happyman42 wrote: »

My bad, I should have quoted the post from KeithAFC that I was responding to. I was just countering his theory that Unionists could somehow make things better, they can't because there will always be a residual desire to be a united island again. Much like Scotland's desire to be independent.

i think you should dispense with the comparison and analogy with scotland , not only do scots have nothing in common with nationalists in northern ireland , they have a large amount in common with unionists in northern ireland , the nationalist story in ireland has nothing in common with the scots history

irishh_bob

Happyman42 wrote: »

You are spot on, imo it is part of the southern inferioity complex. The same one that seems to fall on it's knees or bend over backwards when there is any mention of English royalty. To criticise them or to attempt to make the British establishment accountable, is to be a rabid provo :rolleyes:
They are still afraid to be identified as coming from the same stock as Northern Nationalists ('that crowd up there')

Witness the reticence to protest blatant abuse of nationalists during the troubles while singing the praises of the men of 1916. It's a peculiar schizoprenia that I wish somebody more qualified than me might investigate. It will take a Hollywood blockbuster written by somebody cool and starring Mel Gibson as Martin McGuinness for them to finally claim that they where republicans all along! Then we'll see the uber cool kids on college campuses sporting Che like Gerry Adams t-shirts. Sharpen your pencils Jim Fitzpatrick!

your judging irish attitudes to the british state and monarchy by elements within our media , while most irish people are not anti british , they are also not permanently subjugating themselves before queen lizzy like elements within the media here

Happyman42

irishh_bob wrote: »

i think you should dispense with the comparison and analogy with scotland , not only do scots have nothing in common with nationalists in northern ireland , they have a large amount in common with unionists in northern ireland , the nationalist story in ireland has nothing in common with the scots history

irishh_bob wrote: »

your judging irish attitudes to the british state and monarchy by elements within our media , while most irish people are not anti british , they are also not permanently subjugating themselves before queen lizzy like elements within the media here

Both of your points I can answer in one.
The Scotish comparison is valid imo because Whitehall would have you believe that all is well there, however there has always been a large body of opinion that wants independence. They will attempt to portray Northern Ireland in the same way.

In much the same way, Southern people I refer to do the same thing, when the Queen made her visit, dare anybody have the opinion that the Crown had still to answer for some things that happened. All had to be rosy and friendly in the garden! That wasn't the media, that was the sheep who stood by while a draconian state quelled any protest, lest we 'embarass' ourselves in front of our 'betters'. (i.e. a classic inferiorty complex made manifest)

KeithAFC

Happyman42 wrote: »

You are spot on, imo it is part of the southern inferioity complex. The same one that seems to fall on it's knees or bend over backwards when there is any mention of English royalty. To criticise them or to attempt to make the British establishment accountable, is to be a rabid provo :rolleyes:
They are still afraid to be identified as coming from the same stock as Northern Nationalists ('that crowd up there')

Witness the reticence to protest blatant abuse of nationalists during the troubles while singing the praises of the men of 1916. It's a peculiar schizoprenia that I wish somebody more qualified than me might investigate. It will take a Hollywood blockbuster written by somebody cool and starring Mel Gibson as Martin McGuinness for them to finally claim that they where republicans all along! Then we'll see the uber cool kids on college campuses sporting Che like Gerry Adams t-shirts. Sharpen your pencils Jim Fitzpatrick!

I don't think the people in the Irish Republic would fool for that. I think most are aware of Martin Mcguinness and his past and why he would not be celebrated by people in the Irish Republic.