Doberman Puppy Knuckling

amber2

Hi,

Would appreciate any advice on how to treat and also if anyone has any experience of what feed works best for a 12 week puppy who has just started knuckling over on the front legs. Hoping it is something dietary and that he will grow out of it.

Was today told by the breeder that another pup has been returned with the same problem so may be something in the litter. Any advice greatly appreciated.

Cherry Blossom

Do the same and return the puppy to the breeder, there is definitely something seriously wrong there.

I assume you have taken the dog to your vet?

amber2

No only noticed it today when we took him for a walk but will take him to the vet Monday. I just googled the condition and from what i can gather it seems to be dietary - protein related so wondered if anyone had any solutions or info they found worked for them.

Cherry Blossom

It could be an orthopaedic issue or worse a neurological issue either would be extremely costly to put right, if it is possible to put it right. I can't imagine how it could be dietary unless the pup has been fed complete muck from birth which is unlikely if you got it from a proper breeder.

andreac

Any chance you are feeding royal canin food? Ive heard of several pups doing something similar recently and they were on royal canin. Most of the time its diet related so maybe look at the protein percentage and lower it.

juniord

it could be a condition called dropped pasterns the vet will tell you exactly what it is, the treatment for dropped pasterns is to walk the dog on stony gravely ground , this makes the dog tip toe and strenghten the lower leg

tk123

andreac wrote: »

Any chance you are feeding royal canin food? Ive heard of several pups doing something similar recently and they were on royal canin. Most of the time its diet related so maybe look at the protein percentage and lower it.

I read the same online when I was trying to find info on my guys condition.

OP have you been to the vets yet - will diet alone sort it or will the pup need splits?

Oops - just saw you're go to the vets tomorrow - good luck!!

amber2

andreac wrote: »

Any chance you are feeding royal canin food? Ive heard of several pups doing something similar recently and they were on royal canin. Most of the time its diet related so maybe look at the protein percentage and lower it.

Thanks a mill for all the replies -

Was feeding him with an adult food 18% protein 10% fat but have now changed to a puppy food with 30% protein 18% fat. Rang my vet who by coincidence had seen the other pup which was returned to the breeder and he had diagnosed a condition which he thought was unlikely to affect 2 pups out of a litter. As my vet is away at the moment we have to wait until Wednesday to take him in. Just wondering Andreac is it definitely lower the protein as we have gone the other way and increased it. Pup was very bad yesterday (hardly able to stand) but seems to be much improved today.

Juniord we took him for a walk in the forestry on Sunday on gravel tracks and this is where we spotted the problem - we had to lift him back as he kept falling over.

And tk123 and just wondering did you have a pup with this condition and if so what was the outcome.

andreac

God, def lower the protein. It was prob the increase in protein that has caused this.
Did you change the food and then see the knuckling?

Thats a very big increase to go to from 18% to 30%. I would def reduce it to near 21/22% or so if you can.

Also i noticed you said you had the pup out in a forest, at 12 weeks old thats too young to be going for big walks. They should only be getting about 5 mins per month of age per day so that 15 mins walking, so please be very careful when it comes to exercise as over exercising at a young age can have very bad lasting affects on joints etc.

amber2

Thanks Andreac for your reply only increased the protein yesterday that is after he started knuckling on Sunday. TBH it probably started Friday or Saturday but it was not nearly as noticeable as when we took him for a walk on Sunday and we didn't take him for a long walk maybe a 10 - 15 minute walk and ended lifting him back to the car so he didnt walk that much at all. As i said there is another pup from the litter suffering for the same condition so not looking like its something we are doing on our own. Will upload a pic of him yesterday at his worst and this is just after being left out of his pen, but as i said he is much better today and does not seem to be showing any signs today - well for now anyway.

Sorry about the puppy porn !!

andreac

Just pm'd you. That looks way more serious than diet so vets asap!!

marley123

~Some interesting reading below - http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/knuckling_over.htm

tk123

amber2 wrote: »

And tk123 and just wondering did you have a pup with this condition and if so what was the outcome.

No my guy has a rare hock deformity and needed to have both his (back) legs straightened as the growth plates had closed - but your guy is still small and growing so you might have luck with braces/splints? The first thing I did when he started showing signs of a problem was change him to a much lower protein food.

What is your vet like OP - are they worth waiting for or is there another vet who can take a look in the meantime? I tend to stick to the same vet with my guy because she's been brilliant so I can understand you waiting if this is the case. I would crate the pup immediately though and restrict him until you see the vet. Where are you based? Shane Guerin in Gilabbey Vets in Cork is the ortho specialist who sorted my guy out and in Dublin there's another specialist who was trained by him- Billy McCartney. We're based in Dublin but went to Cork as it was a rare case - UCD wouldn't touch it!

Millem

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Do the same and return the puppy to the breeder, there is definitely something seriously wrong there.

I assume you have taken the dog to your vet?

I have to agree with adrenalinjunkie, I would return pup (easier said than done), I am not a vet but from your picture it looks serious. I know you are probably attached to the dog at this stage so If you do end up keeping pup I hope you took out pet insurance before it was diagnosed as I presume it is very costly to treat, even with pet insurance your premium may double for the following year. I really hope the breeder does not breed from mum and dam again.

boomerang

Any idea what the breeder was feeding the pup? Have you been feeding him the adult brand since you got him?

Is there a possibility it could be rickets?

tk123

OP btw if the pup does need bandages get some kids slipper socks(the have rubber/non-slip bits on them) to go over them to stop him slipping - otherwise his legs will go out from under him especially if you have wooden floors/tiles.

Aru

His limbs look very deformed in the picture you posted.
He appears to have an angular limb deformity in the picture that you posted.Is the way that he is sitting in that picture normal for him?Placement of the upper limbs more so then the way hes knuckling...was he walking straightly when you first got him...

Whats causing it I cannot say from the information I've being given and without having seen the dog I would not even hazard a guess on an internet forum.
Bandaging diet etc.....in mild cases of knuckling caused by diet and a puppy from the predisposed breed growing to quickly these can be a hugh help. these can help esp if starting very young.
But his issue is does not look mild in your photo.

He may need xrays to confirm the extent of his issues-his shoulder and elbows are concerning me as much if not more than the knuckling in your pic and more tests to check the cause-2 pups in one litter is ringing alarm bells going so you might want to find out more from your breeder about that other pups diagnosis.

You may looking at surgery to correct his limb balance.....Leaving them the way they are is going to put a lot of abnormal force on the front of his skeleton so the sooner he gets this seen and dealt with the better.

Honestly I would seriously advise that you go to a vet as a start.
I hope that I am very wrong and that this isn't a serious condition and Im overreacting at seeing a very bad case of overgrowth of the plates that can be fixed by a good splint and a change in diet,soem vit c supplements but thats an impressive picture.

Gilabbey are my recommendations for vets as well...though Arc in Galway have a good Orthopedic reputation as well.Ucd is another option

meoklmrk91

That looks like Rickets to me, my bet would be that the breeder was feeding supplements either to the bitch while pups were in utero or after, too much calcium means that the body thinks that there is a surplus and excretes it meaning no calcium gets to the bones.

Get your dog to a vet asap, this can be reversed for the most part with proper dietary intervention but you have to be quick! I am training to be a Vet Nurse and my tutor was speaking about this to us just last week so it stuck in my mind. I will speak to my tutor about it tomorrow and show her the pic.

Puppy with rickets

Wisco

Vet ASAP. And I'd be getting on to the breeder as well- either to cover cost of vet bills or new pup (although I imagine you're already attached to the guy!).
It's easy to for people without vet degrees to 'diagnose' things online or via Dr Google but the only way you're going to solve the problem is to see a vet and get the necessary tests.
Good luck and let us know how you get on.

amber2

Thank you all for your replies which are very much appreciated we have an appointment with our vet this evening so will up date when i know more. Am going to our usual vet as I find him excellent with our other dobermans.


He was not at all like this when we got him, he was in every way perfect. This just seemed to come on all of a sudden it first started with his stance becoming wider but we just assumed that he was just broadening across the chest and all of a sudden it just deteriorated into what you see in the pic. He was especially bad on Monday which is when we took the photo but over the last few days he seems to have returned to normal, not too sure if it is the change of food or not. We are not exercising him at all now where as over the weekend we did walk him on Saturday and Sunday for about 10 -15 minutes which seems to make the matter alot worse.

Today he looks fine and seems to be standing perfect but still has a broad stance but is straight legged. The breeder rang us initially when the other pup was returned to ask how was this pup, we inquired as to what he was feeding them which was greyhound complete i think 26% protein which is why we upped the protein. Rang the breeder since with some questions but haven't heard from him yet but as i said will update once we return with a diagnose from the vets.

We are getting quite attached to the little guy and the longer we have him the harder it will be to hand him back should we need to but want to give him every chance should it be something he grows out of. My small fella was bawling on Monday when he saw the state of his pup. Have had 2 Dobies before and have never seen anything like this. Thanks again to everyone for the info.

Wisco

Greyhound complete?! :eek: No wonder. Not at all a suitable diet for a puppy. Protein content is NOT the only important factor in selecting a diet- things like calcium and phosphorus levels among others are key too.
Good luck anyway, hope pup ends up ok.

marley123

totally, my rescue Goldie came to us @ 4mths old & had been fed on greyhound food, he was thin & coat was an awful mess but thank god no long last effects.. OP hope you can get your little chap sorted outx

Wisco wrote: »

Greyhound complete?! :eek: No wonder. Not at all a suitable diet for a puppy. Protein content is NOT the only important factor in selecting a diet- things like calcium and phosphorus levels among others are key too.
Good luck anyway, hope pup ends up ok.

amber2

So just back from the Vets he said it is nothing diet related as he is in great conditions its a muscular problem. Its looking like he will be returned but may, with the breeders consent give him 2 weeks to see if he will grow out of it.

andreac

amber2 wrote: »

So just back from the Vets he said it is nothing diet related as he is in great conditions its a muscular problem. Its looking like he will be returned but may, with the breeders consent give him 2 weeks to see if he will grow out of it.

To be honest, if it was me i would be returning this pup as it could be a sign of problems to come. You could spend the whole life of this dogs treating and managing a condition and costing you a fortune. Unless the pup has already been insured then it wont be covered if you do decide to insure it.

I would def be looking for my money back.

Is this a reputable Dobermann breeder?

amber2

andreac wrote: »

To be honest, if it was me i would be returning this pup as it could be a sign of problems to come. You could spend the whole life of this dogs treating and managing a condition and costing you a fortune. Unless the pup has already been insured then it wont be covered if you do decide to insure it.

I would def be looking for my money back.

Is this a reputable Dobermann breeder?

I'm of the same opinion he is too young to have these type of problems which may become very unmanageable but with 3 men in the house who don't agree i'm outnumbered. Rang the breeder he said he will give him a week with us and then we have to decide weather or not we want to keep him.

planetX

amber2 wrote: »

I'm of the same opinion he is too young to have these type of problems which may become very unmanageable but with 3 men in the house who don't agree i'm outnumbered. Rang the breeder he said he will give him a week with us and then we have to decide weather or not we want to keep him.

refund if you keep him?

amber2

Thanks to everyone who replied to my thread so just to update we hung on to the pup his condition seems to have greatly improved attaching photo of him now. We changed his diet and put him on 30% protein 10% fat also add a little cod liver oil every morning.

We have walked him once since and he was perfect afterwards but are keeping the total rest up beside his jaunts around he garden. Took him back to the vet Tuesday who said there is a vast improvement so heres hoping he will grow out of it.

LucyBliss

Thanks so much for the update. I'd been wondering how he was getting on these days.

Such a beautiful dog. I hope these are the only health problems he and you ever have to face over the years!

cjf

Great news and fair play for quick action and sticking by him! So cute love dobies! Had my guy on royal maxi from puppy then onto junior till he was about 18 months or so now he on maxi adult light (was gettin a bit tubby!) and he has thrived on it all they way up (he 3 and a bit now). Good luck with puppy :-)

are you serious

Excellent improvement, he is looking great! Fingers crossed for further improvements!!

Bullseye1

Hopefully the improvement continues. He looks great.

juniord

glad to hear he is on the mend

tk123

Ah that's great news!