When does it stop being the original car?

richieg

Just wondering is there any opinion or legal standpoint as to when a car stops being the original car.

What happens if you buy a wreck as a restoration project and you end up reshelling and replacing the engine, is it still considered the original car?

Where do you stand legally against the original log book?

carchaeologist

If it has it's original engine, gearbox, interior and paint id call it original. Other than that it can't really be can it?

MrFoxman360

richieg wrote: »

Just wondering is there any legal standpoint as to when a car stops being the original car.

I suppose legally its the chassis that is the "car" here in ireland anyway, the reg number will be (should be :rolleyes:) always tied to the chassis, which is a the shell for a monocoque car I suppose.

I wonder then, for instance, how much rust can you cut out of a shell and repalce with new or secondhand panels and parts before it is no longer considered the original chassis or shell.

General opinion on what an original car is depends on an individuals opinion really

richieg

This is what I am wondering. I suppose it is more the legal/official viewpoint rather than the purist opinion I am interested in.

If you had an old car e.g. mini or something and had to reshell it into a newer shell can you still keep the old reg number and log book?

corktina

not legally with a newer shell.

The only way is with a brand new shell and they can, i understand, be got for minis. BL Heritage I think do shells fro them and MGs

RoundyMooney

Of course there's always the donedeal method

Unless a car is a one off-I don't think we need to be too purist about it. I like an old clunker with a bit of patina about is, just as much as a nuts and bolts resto.

macplaxton

corktina wrote: »

The only way is with a brand new shell and they can, i understand, be got for minis. BL Heritage I think do shells fro them and MGs

The only way the other side of the water.

What's the story over here though?

corktina

The same I imagine. You can't re-shell a vehicle with a used shell and transfer your ID to it. The ID of the used shell used apllies. If you use a brand new shell, its a replacement part.

swarlb

Depends largly on the car in question. If you restore a Model T for example from a rusty pile of metal, using Model T parts sourced from some of the millions they built, it'll still be a Model T. Original to the extent all part were sourced from Model T's.
If you restore a Bugatti from a pile of rust, using newly manufactured parts such as a body for example. and try to pass it off as original to make money...that's a different matter.
If you re-shell a standard Mini or MGB, does it really matter in the long run, not really a car with huge value. You've actually improved the car, rather than fill a rusty shell with plop and repaint.
Depends on the car...legalities should only arise if someone is attempting fraud.

johnf2020

Bit of a Triggers Broom then

---

its had several new heads and handles over the years but still original:D

mickdw

richieg wrote: »

Just wondering is there any opinion or legal standpoint as to when a car stops being the original car.

What happens if you buy a wreck as a restoration project and you end up reshelling and replacing the engine, is it still considered the original car?

Where do you stand legally against the original log book?

We say you have a beyond repair 1980 version and a good condition 1990 version of a particular car. It is certainly not ok to just put the engine of the old car into the newer one, stick the 1980 plates on it and get €48 tax.

hi5

Heres what the Revenue VRT handbook says.


http://www.google.ie/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4DSGL_en___IE412&q=REVENUE+VRT+HANDBOOK

1.2.3.1 Re-built Passenger Vehicles
Re-built passenger vehicles which are determined to be unregistered vehicles under the terms of s130A of Finance Act 1992 as amended, will require an Individual Type-Approval from the National Standards Authority of Ireland (NSAI).
Where Revenue determines that the chassis has been obtained from a registered vehicle and the rebuild does not amount to a conversion, as defined, registration is not required. The owner should be directed to notify the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport in Shannon, of the changes in the registered particulars. Where Revenue determines that a conversion has been effected, the owner should be directed to make a declaration of conversion, supported by a certificate from a Suitably Qualified Individual.
It is the owner’s responsibility to notify the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport in Shannon, of the scrapping of a vehicle, i.e. of the irrevocable destruction of the chassis, monocoque, or assembly serving an equivalent purpose. There is no need to notify Revenue because Revenue does not maintain records for more than five years and because Revenue confines itself, for the most part, to making VRT-sensitive amendments.

1.2.3.2 Kit Cars
Kit Car vehicles which are determined to be unregistered vehicles under the terms of s130A of Finance Act 1992 as amended, will require an Individual Type-Approval from the National Standards Authority of Ireland (NSAI).


Revenue Operational Manual VRT Section 1
A Kit Car usually EU Category M1 is constructed from an amalgam of parts some of which are supplied unassembled in kit form. In general, the kit will include a variety of body panels and may include a new chassis that must be assembled. The mechanics (e.g. engine, motors, etc.) and trim are usually obtained from another vehicle to enable the process to be completed. In most cases the donor vehicle will be a vehicle already registered in the State, but no allowance is made/granted in this respect when VRT payable on the completed kit car is being calculated.
In the case of Kit Trikes, usually EU category “L” (motorcycles), the practice has been to consider the age of the major components for the purpose of deciding the age reduction for the purpose of VRT. However it should be noted that trikes, as with kit cars built using a new chassis, will be assigned a registration mark reflecting the year of entry into use of the completed project.
The following point should also be noted:
Where a private individual acquires a newly-assembled kit car abroad, the normal VAT rules should be applied, i.e. VAT is payable if the vehicle is less than 6 months old or has traveled less than 6,000 km. Kit cars assembled in the State are not liable to
VAT where the sale/purchase invoice indicates that it has been paid at the time of purchase of the kit.

1.2.3.3 "Q" Registered Vehicles
These vehicles are so-called because of the fact that the first letter of the assigned registration number is the letter "Q". The registration numbers are issued by the UK registration authorities where the age/origin of a vehicle, for whatever reason, cannot be determined and, as such, requires special treatment when it is presented for registration in the State. This includes:
assignment of an appropriate statistical code;
assessment of OMSP, where applicable (see para 1.3);
assignment of a unique index mark which indicates the year in which the vehicle was first brought into use.

The NCTS Centre will forward all the details relating to the vehicle to Revenue and the CVO will determine a statistical code and value for the vehicle.

Once a statistical code has been assigned by the CVO, an OMSP determined and a VIN assigned (where necessary), registration should proceed in the normal way. The registration record should be noted to the effect that a manual certificate is required and the papers forwarded to the CVO for necessary attention. The endorsement on the VRC issued by the CVO should clearly reflect the origin and manufacture of the vehicle.

macplaxton

corktina wrote: »

The same I imagine. You can't re-shell a vehicle with a used shell and transfer your ID to it. The ID of the used shell used apllies. If you use a brand new shell, its a replacement part.

The reason I ask Corky, is that everything to do with ID here seems to tie the ID with chassis or monocoque shell only, rather than the DVLA points based system on proportion of original components retained.

Now, somewhere, there is a MG B roadster as a case in point...found it.

okistag wrote: »

This MGB was reshelled and re registered...... Cant work out why who ever did it didnt rebuild a rotten one etc as this MG is normal tax and has a current NCT.

kev1.3s

carchaeologist wrote: »

If it has it's original engine, gearbox, interior and paint id call it original. Other than that it can't really be can it?

A little harsh I'd say! I heard before that of the three main components ( chassis engine gearbox ) that at least 2/3 should be original parts for the car to be considered original but that aside you could hardley peanalise someone for having a paint job!

corktina

If you look at the DVLA system of points you'll find its only possible to avoid a Q reg by using the original shell AND a proportion of original components.


That MGB could well have had a Q reg applied in 1989 and that would then be the date of first reg shown in the V5C. (Q reg is for when the original date of first reg can't be determined.

macplaxton

corktina wrote: »

If you look at the DVLA system of points you'll find its only possible to avoid a Q reg by using the original shell AND a proportion of original components.

The case you state above is to retain the original registration mark and you don't have to use an original shell. It could be a new unmodified direct replacement such as a Heritage MG B or Mini shell.

But if you look even closer there is a definition of "reconstructed classic". If all the component parts are over 25 years old, then the car is not allocated a Q, but is dated by the youngest component and a aged related plate issued.

The devil is in the detail.

It doesn't really matter in this case anyway, because we're in Ireland, not the UK.

corktina

it would probably depend on the humour of the VOSA official inspecting it in that case as there would just have to be a new bolt in there somewhere! Most of the parts would be undatable I would assume so they would be looking at the parts being of original design I imagine. So a new brake servo for instance of the correct original type would not affect the reg issued (I guess here)

tinyjiney

As soon as you but that log book on DD.............;)

Tea drinker

richieg wrote: »

Just wondering is there any opinion or legal standpoint as to when a car stops being the original car.

What happens if you buy a wreck as a restoration project and you end up reshelling and replacing the engine, is it still considered the original car?

Where do you stand legally against the original log book?

Depends on where you think the cars soul is ;-)