Why didn't the Free State make some (if not all) public schools Gaelscoils?

Cathaoirleach

Why didn't the Free State make some (if not all) public schools Gaelscoils?

The Gaeltacht was a lot stronger back in 1922 so there can't have been a shortage of fluent teachers or native speakers that could have been trained.

I often wondered why they didn't rewrite the curriculum and teach all subjects through the medium of Irish in as many schools as possible.

Instead they just added Irish as a subject and used English for all other subjects, which failed to immerse students in the language.

And why did it take another 50 years for the first Gaelscoil to be established? And it wasn't even established by the government!

It seems to me this was the biggest failing of the Free State to get the population speaking Irish again. A sorely missed opportunity.

The amount of money that has been wasted by this State on the Irish language and we still only have a tiny percentage of Gaelscoils. The mind boggles. It almost seems like a conspiracy!

Let's have a look at some stats for Welsh and Irish-medium schools

Welsh-medium schools
55,000 Primary students
42,000 Secondary students
97,000

Irish-medium schools (excluding An Ghaeltacht)
31,000 Primary students
6,000 Secondary students
37,000

My next question is: Why don't the Irish government focus all their funding for the Irish language into opening new Gaelscoils? The demand is clearly there. Is that not the simple answer to all their failings over the past 90 years?

The only reason I am against Irish being removed as a compulsory subject is because the government have been abysmal in supporting the Gaelscoileanna movement, which has been paid for mostly by parents and donors interested in the language. If it wasn't for these people, there would be no Gaelscoils.

So, why didn't they open any Gaelscoils in 1922 and why aren't they focusing their efforts on opening new ones in 2012?

Almost 100,000 Welsh students, and only 37,000 Irish students. Oh dear!

Fr Tod Umptious

The simple answer is that when the state was setup it was broke.
It was cheaper and easier to just take over the existing institutions rather than start from scratch.
The schools, run by the churches, the civil service, the law etc, were just continuations of the British system but now run from Dublin rather than London

Benny_Cake

Very little changed in the country initially, apart from the crown being taken down on public buildings and the harp going up. In addition to the cost of such radical change in the education system it would have been impossible to find sufficient teachers with fluency in Irish I'd imagine.

Cathaoirleach

I understand that it would have been impossible to convert all current schools to Gaelscoils. But what about the 30s, 40s, was there no attempt by the government to open Irish-medium schools or did they think that teaching it as a subject would suffice?

Nobody in the 30s thought of opening an all-Irish school for English speakers?

It must have become apparent in the 30s that teaching it as a subject was not working.

Students must have had the same resentment towards it as they do today.

Something went terribly wrong in the 30s at least, and then this same policy was carried forward to the 40s.

Low and behold, here we are in 2012 with the same bizarre policy and just a handful of Irish schools.

Can we not just redirect funding and open more Irish schools today? Why is there such a delay? There is no shortage of students and there are hundreds of jobless Irish teachers waiting.

Why can't the government see that Gaelscoils are the only way forward?

Irish as a subject has not worked, isn't working and will probably never work.

Are we going to be here in 2052 with the same stupid policy and even more resentful students?

Nothing has changed in 90 years!

El Horseboxo

Gaeilge bred nationalism which bred republicanism to an extent. I always thought the Irish language was suppressed among the average citizen.

Irish_Elect_Eng

I understand the desire to keep the Irish language alive as part of our culture and how it is linked closely to our music drama and other arts, I salute those that struggle to establish the Irish language schools and champion the cause that they believe in.

But in the world we live in I see this as a luxury and not an essential part of our education system. We are very lucky that we speak English, very lucky. If we did not then this country would be a very different place.

The whole purpose of language is communication and the key factor in this is how many people speak a particular language. In my opinion we would improve our children's futures significantly by changing the languages taught in our schools to Spanish, Mandarin and one of the more prevalent Indian tongues. These will be the languages of travel, business and education.

Can someone explain to me the other benefits of speaking Irish other than the cultural? Because I see much more benefit in being able to communicate with 2 Billion Chinese rather than investing in a second language to speak with few thousand Irish people that already understand English.

Perhaps I am missing the point...?

PeadarCo

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

I understand that it would have been impossible to convert all current schools to Gaelscoils. But what about the 30s, 40s, was there no attempt by the government to open Irish-medium schools or did they think that teaching it as a subject would suffice?

Nobody in the 30s thought of opening an all-Irish school for English speakers?

It must have become apparent in the 30s that teaching it as a subject was not working.

Students must have had the same resentment towards it as they do today.

Something went terribly wrong in the 30s at least, and then this same policy was carried forward to the 40s.

Low and behold, here we are in 2012 with the same bizarre policy and just a handful of Irish schools.

Can we not just redirect funding and open more Irish schools today? Why is there such a delay? There is no shortage of students and there are hundreds of jobless Irish teachers waiting.

Why can't the government see that Gaelscoils are the only way forward?

Irish as a subject has not worked, isn't working and will probably never work.

Are we going to be here in 2052 with the same stupid policy and even more resentful students?

Nothing has changed in 90 years!

To be fair I don't people are interested. In my experience being able to speak Irish is of no real benefit.(Don't mean to offend)

I think its a case most people don't want to lose the language but neither do they want to actively engage in saving it through their own actions.

Students feel resentful because they are learning a language they don't need are will rarely if ever use after leaving school. Compare that to foreign languages which would be of benefit abroad. It is badly thought but thats the same for all languages bar english.

JustinDee

Its an English-speaking country and Irish is a compulsory curricular subject.
Seems fine to me.

Irish_Elect_Eng

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

I understand the desire to keep the Irish language alive as part of our culture and how it is linked closely to our music drama and other arts, I salute those that struggle to establish the Irish language schools and champion the cause that they believe in.

But in the world we live in I see this as a luxury and not an essential part of our education system. We are very lucky that we speak English, very lucky. If we did not then this country would be a very different place.

The whole purpose of language is communication and the key factor in this is how many people speak a particular language. In my opinion we would improve our children's futures significantly by changing the languages taught in our schools to Spanish, Mandarin and one of the more prevalent Indian tongues. These will be the languages of travel, business and education.

Can someone explain to me the other benefits of speaking Irish other than the cultural? Because I see much more benefit in being able to communicate with 2 Billion Chinese rather than investing in a second language to speak with few thousand Irish people that already understand English.

Perhaps I am missing the point...?

One additional comment....I fell the same way about French and German, but to a lesser extent...they are of much less use than the used to be as the vast majority of those nationalities do business in English...

hurling_lad

JustinDee wrote: »

Its an English-speaking country and Irish is a compulsory curricular subject.
Seems fine to me.

Yes - possibly the reason that the government didn't start teaching everything through Irish was because almost everyone spoke english (i.e. the same reason that they didn't start teaching everything through Esperanto).

nuac

In the secondary sector there have been A schools where all subjects except English were taught thru Irish.

How many parents

1. send their children to Gaelscoilleanna for elitist reasons i.e. no traveller children, no immigrants' children?

2. speak Irish in the home?

I do hope Irish survives. I suggest the Fáinne scheme should be revived.

JustinDee

hurling_lad wrote: »

Yes - possibly the reason that the government didn't start teaching everything through Irish was because almost everyone spoke english (i.e. the same reason that they didn't start teaching everything through Esperanto).

None of the languages I speak were taught at school apart from French.

goose2005

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The simple answer is that when the state was setup it was broke.
It was cheaper and easier to just take over the existing institutions rather than start from scratch.
The schools, run by the churches, the civil service, the law etc, were just continuations of the British system but now run from Dublin rather than London

The Irish state has never had an appetite for large-scale reform of anything - many of our laws have barely been tinkered with since 1922, even in areas where the UK has changed a lot.

opti0nal

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Why didn't the Free State make some (if not all) public schools Gaelscoils.... ..My next question is: Why don't the Irish government focus all their funding for the Irish language into opening new Gaelscoils? The demand is clearly there. Is that not the simple answer to all their failings over the past 90 years?....So, why didn't they open any Gaelscoils in 1922 and why aren't they focusing their efforts on opening new ones in 2012?...Almost 100,000 Welsh students, and only 37,000 Irish students. Oh dear!

Because we're overwhelmingly and predominantly an English-speaking country.

Favouring Irish in the way you describe would cause uproar in the majority English-speaking community. It's simply not the what people want.

RandomName2

This state could barely cope as it was without attempting to promote Gaeilge at the expense of English. As it was, the attempts to assert 'Irishness' in culture as well as Irish was having a negative impact on the progress of the state (such as trade wars, segregation of sport, promotion of the Catholic Church, etc. etc.).

Perhaps full immersion would have been better for the language than draconian legislation (well, actually there's little doubt about that - such legislation has been gradually dismantled due to its lack of popularity and logic). Also you should consider how the lack of Irish speakers would have had a negative impact initially on the capacity to provide all-Irish schools (which was primarily an institution run by the Church anyway).

SugarHigh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Literacy_Campaign
Something like this would have been relatively low cost to implement.

It was discussed in the second half of this documentary.
http://video.pbs.org/video/1898347038/

CrankyCod

One of the reasons that schools were not converted to Gaelscoilleanna may have been due to a desire to avoid alienating Protestants even further from the new state, after the bitterness of the War of independence and Civil War. Also only a few generations from the famine a lot of people may still have associated Gaelic with poverty and backwardness. I doubt if the average citizen at the time would have been enthusiastic

Gregor Samsa

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

I understand that it would have been impossible to convert all current schools to Gaelscoils. But what about the 30s, 40s, was there no attempt by the government to open Irish-medium schools or did they think that teaching it as a subject would suffice(

My father (born in the late 1930s) had his entire education through Irish (up to leaving cert) in CBS schools on the northside of Dublin. He even learned Latin through Irish. When he went to work in a medical laboratory on leaving school, he didn't know what a "beaker" was, as he only knew it as an "eascra".

At some point, both of these schools switched to English, but it was after he finished in the 1950s.

I don't know if this was indicative of education in the 20s, 30s and 40s, but it at least shows that some amount of education fully as Gaeilge, was available at this time, and not just in Gaeltacht areas.

astrofool

I reckon Irish is only present to appease the small % of people who are very fervent about it. Most of the public like Irish, as long as they don't have to do anything about it. The current status quo just about sums this up.

From an economic point of view (despite our current travails) aren't we lucky they didn't try and implement all gaeilge schools?

djrichard

To be honest, romantic notions aside, learning Gaelic is pretty much a complete waste of time and money for student and Government alike. Unless you are certain you want to have a job in Gaelic media or something similar, its really of no use in modern Ireland. English is the language of Ireland now and always will be. It would be much better to use the time to learn a language that you might actually gain some benefit in learning.

Im not from Ireland, Ive not even lived here for 1 year, but its clear that very few people are interested in it. Thats why its dying, and it will always been a constant battle for the minority who try and keep it alive. I doubt very much that it will die, and in some rural parts of the country, there will always be those that speak some of it.

Is there anyone alive today in Ireland who doesnt speak English? (I dont mean immigrants, I mean Irish natives who speak Gaelic as their first and only language).

thebman

astrofool wrote: »

I reckon Irish is only present to appease the small % of people who are very fervent about it. Most of the public like Irish, as long as they don't have to do anything about it. The current status quo just about sums this up.

From an economic point of view (despite our current travails) aren't we lucky they didn't try and implement all gaeilge schools?

This pretty much sums up my views on it too.

The governments policies perfectly reflect the conflicting views of the general public on the matter. Ask them and they'll say they care about Irish, ask them can they speak it and you'll get a few couple of words rhymed off, try to converse with them and they won't know what your talking about in most cases.

Most people want lip service paid to the Irish language so that is what the government does. It is a very expensive waste of time IMO.

Wibbs

phutyle wrote: »

My father (born in the late 1930s) had his entire education through Irish (up to leaving cert) in CBS schools on the northside of Dublin. He even learned Latin through Irish. When he went to work in a medical laboratory on leaving school, he didn't know what a "beaker" was, as he only knew it as an "eascra".

At some point, both of these schools switched to English, but it was after he finished in the 1950s.

I don't know if this was indicative of education in the 20s, 30s and 40s, but it at least shows that some amount of education fully as Gaeilge, was available at this time, and not just in Gaeltacht areas.

Ditto for my mother born around the same time on Dublin's southside. Her brothers at a different school were also educated through Irish. Neither were CBS schools. Having asked her in the past about this many of her childhood friends from other schools were also educated through the medium of Irish. It seems there was some effort on this score at the time, even if not labelled official Gaelscoils? More of an effort than we remember today anyway? Her theory was that the civil service at the time did it's business through Irish so it opened up that avenue for future employment. Dunno how true that was, but makes sense.

My father on the other hand had a completely different experience in his schooling. A cursory nod as Gaelige was about it, so I suppose it depended on ones catchment area. He was older than her by 13 odd years mind you so it seems to me it hadn't caught on when he had gone through the system. Plus he and his mates attended more "British" type rugger bugger schools which would have made a diff too.

Interestingly(or not:)) of my mothers side of the family educated through Irish only one of her brothers still has any fluency. He went into the civil service though and that probably made it stick for life. My mother(and the others) had pretty much zero Irish in their adult life. That would be my concern about the modern Gaelscoil movement, even though it's well meaning. That the majority of the kids will leave primary with (naturally) primary level fluency and even this will be lost or fade considerably in the secondary and onward and larger environment that is overwhelmingly English speaking. That only a small minority will continue to grow up in the language and use it as adults. Then again at least that minority will keep the language alive.

Dannyboy83

OP is correct, immersion is the only way to achieve any kind of fluency.

Disagree about demand tho.
Demand skyrocketed during the Celtic Tiger, but has utterly collapsed now that we've half a million unemployed and hundreds of thousands emigrating.

You cannot underestimate how parent's ambitions/fears influence these decisions.
If the country is affluent, many parent's ambitions will overrule their fears and they will make their children learn Irish.
If the country is broke, parent's concerns will overrule any vicarious ambitions and they will see to it that their kids have every advantage in acquiring skills which will give them a job/future. Obviously Irish would be way down on that list.

djrichard

Wibbs wrote: »

Interestingly(or not:)) of my mothers side of the family educated through Irish only one of her brothers still has any fluency. He went into the civil service though and that probably made it stick for life. My mother(and the others) had pretty much zero Irish in their adult life. That would be my concern about the modern Gaelscoil movement, even though it's well meaning. That the majority of the kids will leave primary with (naturally) primary level fluency and even this will be lost or fade considerably in the secondary and onward and larger environment that is overwhelmingly English speaking. That only a small minority will continue to grow up in the language and use it as adults. Then again at least that minority will keep the language alive.

Similar to my own experience in Scotland. My parents are from one of the small islands off the west coast of Scotland where there is a considerable amount of Gaelic still spoken. We grew up in Glasgow and my dad was involved in setting up Scotlands first primary bilingual Gaelic unit on the mainland. It started in 1985 in Sir John Maxwell Primary school in Glasgow. I left my own normal primary school and attended there right at the start of primary 3 until high school. We were taught Gaelic as our first language. All of our subjects were taught to us in Gaelic. We had English as a subject, rather than Gaelic as a subject. Obviously there was still a lot of English spoken as a lot of us had little or no Gaelic to begin with. Every effort was made to speak as much Gaelic as possible though. The vast majority of the kids came from families whose parents were from the Scottish islands, or they had some close connection with them.

When there were changes in the Poll Tax years ago, my parents decided that we were going to live in our house on Tiree permanently, instead of just during holiday times. I was told how great it would be for my Gaelic to be on Tiree (thats the islands name) due to the amount of Gaelic spoken. When we got there, the reality was somewhat different. Mainly it was just the old folk that still spoke it, and at school, it was taught as a subject. All other lessons were taught in English. For some reason, even in the islands, it wasnt really seen as cool to learn Gaelic. I have been on Gaelic tv and news items several times as a kid when we lived in Glasgow, we had Gaelic only plays etc etc, there was for a while, quite a public demand for Gaelic and more and more parents considered sending their children to an all Gaelic school. Since moving to Tiree, I used Gaelic less and less and Ive lost virtually all of it, apart from the really basic stuff that I had drilled into me when I firt started out. When someone asks me how to say something in Gaelic, I get really annoyed with myself because I can rarely remember the right word, even though I feel its at the tip of my tongue the whole time.

The Gaelic unit was a success in Glasgow, and now, instead of just occupying the top floor of a normal primary school, they have an entire primary school that is Gaelic only. To be honest, Gaelic tv in Scotland has taken a bit of a nose dive, and rarely during peaktimes are any Gaelic shows being broadcast. Living in Glasgow as a young adult, people found it bizarre that I could understand "those stupid teuchter shows late at night" and couldnt understand why my parents would want me to learn that instead of something they considered useful such as Spanish or French.

I wish now that I stuck at it of my own free will, instead of ditching it at the first chance I got. As a child, you dont always understand the things you will value more as you age. Im only 34 by the way, before I start sounding like an OAP! I lived in Tenerife for 4 years before I came to Ireland last year, I made friends with loads of Norwegians and despite their population being less than Scotland, they have such pride in their language and heritage and hold onto it with passion. Many businesses in Scandinavia use English as their language, and there have been some calls in places like Sweden to anglicise
street names and town names to become more attractive to the international community. There was a strong refusal from the people to accept that.

I also remember at some point in Scotland, in the Highlands, all the place names and road signs were altered to include the Gaelic names. There was an outcry as the English names were printed above the Gaelic name, when the locals and campaigners wanted the Gaelic to take first position on the signs.

Here is a photo from 1985, the first year when the Gaelic unit opened. Im the first on the left in the back row.

deise go deo

In the early days of the state there were schools called 'A' schools that ran everything through Irish. I am not sure why they disapered like they did, to leave only a handfull in the country by the 70's, probably it is because Second language immersion education was not really understood properly at the time. It was tought for example that raising a child bilingualy would be damaging to their education and possibly even to their mental health. Hardly surprising that a parent would not be too keen to have their kids educated through a second language if this was the prevailing wisdom.

We now know of course that this is nonsence, raising a child with two languages from a young age improves their cognative development and bilingual kids have been shown to outperform monoglots in many areas of education.
As to the current situation, I think one of the key strenghts of the Gaelscoil movement is that it was built from the ground up by the parents, rther than being imposed by the government.

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

OP is correct, immersion is the only way to achieve any kind of fluency.

Disagree about demand tho.
Demand skyrocketed during the Celtic Tiger, but has utterly collapsed now that we've half a million unemployed and hundreds of thousands emigrating.

You cannot underestimate how parent's ambitions/fears influence these decisions.
If the country is affluent, many parent's ambitions will overrule their fears and they will make their children learn Irish.
If the country is broke, parent's concerns will overrule any vicarious ambitions and they will see to it that their kids have every advantage in acquiring skills which will give them a job/future. Obviously Irish would be way down on that list.

Some of your assertions seem way off, what are you baseing them on exactly?

For one, the demand for Gaelscoil education existed long before the celtic tiger, the movement started in the 70's and has been growing steadly since.
If demand has utterly collapsed since the end of the celtic tiger, why do gaelscoils still have long waiting lists? Why are more still opening?
If demand utterly collapsed as you claim, how could the number of kids attending Irish medium education have increased by 6800 since the end of the celtic tiger from 34,300 in 2006 to 41,100 in 2010?

http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie/about/statistics/


The drop off in school openings after 2008 was not due to lack of demand, it was due to the government's refusal to allow any new gaelscoils to set up, despite this, a new gaelscoil went ahead in Meath even without government recognition.
Fortunatly the government has dropped this discrimanatory nonsence and about a quater of the new schools that the government plans to open over the next few years will be Irish Medium schools.

As for giving kids an advantage to aquire skills to help them have a job/future, sending your kids to a gaelscoil is one of the best things you could do, the benefits of bilingualism has been well proven over the years.

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

Some of your assertions seem way off, what are you baseing them on exactly?

The fact that 450,000 people are unemployed and hundreds of thousands are emigrating.
If the benefits of Bilingualism with Irish are as vast as you portray, then why don't all these people get jobs using their Irish language skills?

There must be huge demand in Australia, Canada and China for fluent Irish speakers these days?

For one, the demand for Gaelscoil education existed long before the celtic tiger, the movement started in the 70's and has been growing steadly since.
If demand has utterly collapsed since the end of the celtic tiger, why do gaelscoils still have long waiting lists? Why are more still opening?
If demand utterly collapsed as you claim, how could the number of kids attending Irish medium education have increased by 6800 since the end of the celtic tiger from 34,300 in 2006 to 41,100 in 2010?

http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie/about/statistics/

Do you realise that mothers are being told to put their unborn children on school waiting lists?

Look at the overall trend first.

What you did is called cherry picking statistics.
If numbers elsewhere were collapsing yet Gaelscoils were surging, then you would have a valid point. As you know, this is not the case.

As for giving kids an advantage to aquire skills to help them have a job/future, sending your kids to a gaelscoil is one of the best things you could do, the benefits of bilingualism has been well proven over the years.

The corollary being that only Gaelscoils facilitate bilingualism? Correct?

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

In the early days of the state there were schools called 'A' schools that ran everything through Irish. I am not sure why they disapered like they did, to leave only a handfull in the country by the 70's,

More likely they disappeared like they did because of a simple lack of demand. If it was deemed useful, even subconsciously it would be more prevalent today. Look what happened when the civil service dropped it as a daily requirement. People stopped using it and remember these were people already pretty fluent. It was an organic change wrought by the needs of the people of this country. They even went so far as to actively resist it, while paying lip service to it's cultural status. Watching the Stephen Fry doc on languages was interesting when he asked the kids from the Gaelscoil what language they texted/tweeted/facebooked in. It wasn't Irish. When Terry Wogan visited the Irish summer camp a fair number of the students mooted that learning Irish was more for exam results rather than a communicative reason in of itself.

Makes sense, given the culture these kids and the rest of us live in. It's overwhelmingly English as the language. Actually, not so much perfidious Albion as the language of the US of A and of the web and modern communications. More kids/people speak Txt than speak Irish on a daily basis. You may not like that, I certainly don't but that's the reality. That's evolution.

The other reality is that it's been many centuries since Irish was an "educated" language and since it was the language of education and learning. How many university doctoral theses today are published as Gaelige? Other than of course those doing doctorates in Irish as a language. Then the current textbooks/literature. Where is the science, the technology, the engineering, the philosophy, the business studies, etc in Irish? You may have to go back to the 10th century for that. So even if you have Irish primary schools(less than 200) and post primary(40), the overwhelming body of education is not in Irish. And unlikely to be in the future.

probably it is because Second language immersion education was not really understood properly at the time. It was tought for example that raising a child bilingualy would be damaging to their education and possibly even to their mental health. Hardly surprising that a parent would not be too keen to have their kids educated through a second language if this was the prevailing wisdom.

Have you any evidence of this "prevailing wisdom"? I'd be surprised to find if you did, given that bilingualism has been considered advantageous for many a century all the way back to the Greeks and the Romans(most semi educated Romans had at least two, Latin and Greek, the latter more used on a daily basis). Where education existed in Europe going way back pupils were schooled in at at least two languages. For the wealthy often three (local, latin and greek).

Dannyboy83 wrote:

If the benefits of Bilingualism with Irish are as vast as you portray, then why don't all these people get jobs using their Irish language skills?

There must be huge demand in Australia, Canada and China for fluent Irish speakers these days?

Indeed.

The corollary being that only Gaelscoils facilitate bilingualism? Correct?

Indeed part deux(see what I did there). While the benefits of bilingualism are there in the case of cognitive function(though often exaggerated by some quarters), the main benefit of bilingualism is a practical one. A French person with French and English(or Mandarin, or Spanish) increases his or her chances of a career outside and inside of France than one without. Given our history of overseas movement we should indeed be pushing bilingualism, in practically useful languages. Even within Ireland one of the issues some multinationals have with the Irish workforce is the lack of a second language for an ever more global and shrinking world. They often have to import labour from abroad. Jobs that would otherwise have gone to Irish workers. As it is now with our education system the majority of Irish people emigrate to English speaking countries, with useful second languages this would open up a whole new world, both outside and inside of this country. A cupla focal wouldn't.

Sure we can argue that Irish is a cultural thing(I would), however you're on a hiding to nowhere pushing it's practical application.

byhookorbycrook

My mother (born in the 20s) did a lot of her schooling through Irish in an ordinary national school.
Demand certainly has not dropped for Gaelscoileanna, our school is hugely over-subscribed and we have lots of names for 2016 already.
Recent ERSI study affirmed that Gaelscoileanna "are more likely than Gaeltacht or English-medium schools to provide a broad curriculum"
http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie/news/school-stories/torthai-dearfacha-don-coras-gaelscolaiochta-leirithe-i-dtuairisc-nua-an-esri/?lang=en

GAA president-elect, Liam Ó Néill works in a primary school that has become a Gaelscoil,i.e was an English-medium school until recently.

Wibbs

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Recent ERSI study affirmed that Gaelscoileanna "are more likely than Gaeltacht or English-medium schools to provide a broad curriculum"
http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie/news/school-stories/torthai-dearfacha-don-coras-gaelscolaiochta-leirithe-i-dtuairisc-nua-an-esri/?lang=en

Oh they certainly do B, however that's far less to do with the language involved than the very real patronage and daily interest and involvement of the parents and indeed the teachers. Any school with a defined purpose, a vocation if you will, is naturally going to be far better than the average school with a higher variability of interest and involvement going on. The fact that the Gaeltacht schools don't provide as broad a curriculum shows the language has little to do with it, so with respect B it's kinda a moot point in favour of the language, merely the specific dynamics of such a school*. Indeed lessens the notion that bilingualism has as big an effect than is often put forward in this particular debate as the Gaeltacht kids are bilingual.






* this is not to say that a school with such a vocation is a bad thing. Not by a long shot. We could learn from it and try and apply it to the lesser performing schools out there, though god knows how in practical terms?

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The fact that 450,000 people are unemployed and hundreds of thousands are emigrating.
If the benefits of Bilingualism with Irish are as vast as you portray, then why don't all these people get jobs using their Irish language skills?

There must be huge demand in Australia, Canada and China for fluent Irish speakers these days?

So you are basing your claim that there has been a massive colapse in the demand for Gaelscoil education on unemployment?

Am I missing something here?


The benefits of being bilingual go beyond just having a second language.

Do you realise that mothers are being told to put their unborn children on school waiting lists?

Look at the overall trend first.

What you did is called cherry picking statistics.
If numbers elsewhere were collapsing yet Gaelscoils were surging, then you would have a valid point. As you know, this is not the case.

Actually no, I was not claiming that demand has collapsed anywhere, just disproving your claim that it has collapsed for Gaelscoils.

What you did is called a strawman

The corollary being that only Gaelscoils facilitate bilingualism? Correct?

Nope, just that Gaelscoils ensure bilingualism, unlike the rest of the education system.

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

More likely they disappeared like they did because of a simple lack of demand. If it was deemed useful, even subconsciously it would be more prevalent today. Look what happened when the civil service dropped it as a daily requirement. People stopped using it and remember these were people already pretty fluent. It was an organic change wrought by the needs of the people of this country. They even went so far as to actively resist it, while paying lip service to it's cultural status. Watching the Stephen Fry doc on languages was interesting when he asked the kids from the Gaelscoil what language they texted/tweeted/facebooked in. It wasn't Irish. When Terry Wogan visited the Irish summer camp a fair number of the students mooted that learning Irish was more for exam results rather than a communicative reason in of itself.

I wont argue with you about the disapeareance of 'A' schools, but the demand being absent 50 years ago is not the relevant point, the demand dose exist todayt.
As far as txting/tweeting/facebooking, there is a growing Irish language subculture, have a look around facebook if you dont believe me.

So even if you have Irish primary schools(less than 200) and post primary(40), the overwhelming body of education is not in Irish. And unlikely to be in the future.

Acually thats just Gaelscoils, you have to add Gaeltachts onto that number.

Have you any evidence of this "prevailing wisdom"? I'd be surprised to find if you did, given that bilingualism has been considered advantageous for many a century all the way back to the Greeks and the Romans(most semi educated Romans had at least two, Latin and Greek, the latter more used on a daily basis). Where education existed in Europe going way back pupils were schooled in at at least two languages. For the wealthy often three (local, latin and greek).

No argument in terms of learning a second language, I was talking about children being brought up as bilingual. Why do you think parents in Ireland and Wales would have allowed and even encouraged teachers to prevent their children growing up as bilinguals? Why did the education systems activly seek to prevent bilingualism? If it was believed to be advantageous?

Dubhlinner

If the free state had made all the schools (even just primary schools) gaelscoil and it continued throughout our history - we'd likely all be fluent in Irish today but still use English as our main spoken language. In the populous areas English was the spoken language for a long time already. That doesn't go away.

Wish they'd done it. Having been brought up bilingual we'd likely be better at other languages too.

We'd probably use it a bit though. Could see Irish people insisting on speaking it abroad - bit like wearing GAA tops like a uniform outside Ireland. So the English wouldn't get the blame when we act the drunken bollocks on holiday in Europe....

murphaph

We should prioritise English and maths skills tbh. Far too many people can't even spell properly.

murphaph

Dubhlinner wrote: »

If the free state had made all the schools (even just primary schools) gaelscoil and it continued throughout our history - we'd likely all be fluent in Irish today but still use English as our main spoken language. In the populous areas English was the spoken language for a long time already. That doesn't go away.

Wish they'd done it. Having been brought up bilingual we'd likely be better at other languages too.

We'd probably use it a bit though. Could see Irish people insisting on speaking it abroad - bit like wearing GAA tops like a uniform outside Ireland. So the English wouldn't get the blame when we act the drunken bollocks on holiday in Europe....

We'd probably speak English like the Dutch do, quite well, but not quite native speaker level and with a limited vocabulary. I'm glad I am a native English speaker (though I do speak German too) and have found it to be an asset that I wouldn't have if we had done as the OP wishes we had wrt Gaelscoilleanna.

LordSutch

deise go deo wrote: »

The benefits of being bilingual go beyond just having a second language.

Bilingual, most definately Yes! but not with Irish as the second language. I would like my children to be fluent in English & either French or German, that way, when they leave school and travel the world (or settle abroad) they will have a useful tool, for both work options & for social skills. As you know 'deise go deo' from our previous exchanges on this topic, I am not anti-Irish language, far from it, but as I have explained many threads ago I think the compulsory nature of the "pressure to learn Irish" should be taken off the language, therefore allowing the language to breath & flourish and to find its natural level (in a positive environment) without being force fed. 'Gaelscoils are great' but they are not for the majority of the Irish population. My Grandad on my Mum's side spoke Irish fluently and that's a cool thing in retrospect, but at the time (just after the State was created) he literally had it beaten into him, thus giving him a hatred for Irish, which he then passed on to his children, who then passed on the hatred to their grandchildren, a hatered for the language that still lingers (not as hatred) but a kind of indifference to the Irish language that lasts to this day . . . .

I think that "Gaelscoils for all" would have been a disaster for the flegling State in the 1920s/30s, but I think in today's more tolerent climate 'Gaelscoils are great' for those parents who want their children to be fluent in Irish, and to have it as their second language, ahead of German or French.

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

I wont argue with you about the disapeareance of 'A' schools, but the demand being absent 50 years ago is not the relevant point, the demand dose exist todayt.

Eh hang on so there was a significant drop off in demand 50 years ago when many areas of employment required Irish fluency and more people spoke the language? It was more practically useful back then yet people chose to let it die off? How do you explain that? And that's very relevant to this thread.

As far as txting/tweeting/facebooking, there is a growing Irish language subculture, have a look around facebook if you dont believe me.

It is absolutely miniscule compared to the overall txting/tweeting/facebooking traffic in this country.

Acually thats just Gaelscoils, you have to add Gaeltachts onto that number.

There are apparently 4065 schools in this country, 240 of them Gaelscoils, how many in Gaelthacht areas. Unless it's in the 1000's it's still a serious minority so again you're making moot points.

No argument in terms of learning a second language, I was talking about children being brought up as bilingual. Why do you think parents in Ireland and Wales would have allowed and even encouraged teachers to prevent their children growing up as bilinguals? Why did the education systems activly seek to prevent bilingualism? If it was believed to be advantageous?

So no then DgD. You don't have any evidence to back your previous opinion dressed up as fact claim that "It was tought(sic) for example that raising a child bilingualy(sic) would be damaging to their education and possibly even to their mental health".

As for why they went out of fashion? Practicality mostly, with side orders of apathy and seeing Irish as out of date. That's of course my opinion, but it would appear to have more logic behind it.

deise go deo

LordSutch wrote: »

As you know 'deise go deo' from our previous exchanges on this topic, I am not anti-Irish language, far from it, but as I have explained many threads ago I think the compulsory nature of the "pressure to learn Irish" should be taken off the language, therefore allowing the language to breath & flourish and to find its natural level (in a positive environment) without being force fed. 'Gaelscoils are great' but they are not for the majority of the Irish population.

I'll take your word for it. Irish being compulsory in English medium schools is not exactly relevant when you are talking about Irish medium schools, If there was anywhere even close to enough Gaelscoils in the country to meet demand then I might even agree with you.
As for Gaelscoils not being for the majority, your probably right, but there is still a massive lack of them. There are only spaces for about 6% of kids at primary level in the Irish Medium sector, and only space for about 2.5% as second level.
That should be at around 20-25% for both.

My Grandad on my Mum's side spoke Irish fluently and that's a cool thing in retrospect, but at the time (just after the State was created) he literally had it beaten into him, thus giving him a hatred for Irish, which he then passed on to his children, who then passed on the hatred to their grandchildren, a hatered for the language that still lingers (not as hatred) but a kind of indifference to the Irish language that lasts to this day . . . .

Thats fine, but nobody is getting anything beaten into them these days, and the language is more popular with young people than it ever has been.

I think that "Gaelscoils for all" would have been a disaster for the flegling State in the 1920s/30s, but I think in today's more tolerent climate 'Gaelscoils are great' for those parents who want their children to be fluent in Irish, and to have it as their second language, ahead of German or French.

Would have been? I think you mean was, the state did try to force all second level schools to teach through Irish only, but lack of competent teachers, and the non existence of teaching materials ment it dident work out side the Gaeltacht.
Schools that did manage to teach everything through Irish became 'A' schools, scools with some teaching in Irish and some in English were 'B' schools and so on, as the government came to realise that just talking about it and trying to force it through in schools would not actually be enough to reveiv the Irish language they lost interest and the pressure for schools to keep up using Irish stopped, and most 'A' schools switched to English.

Indeed Gaelscoils are great for Parents who want their kids to have more than the cupla focail, the only problem is the critical shortage of them.

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh hang on so there was a significant drop off in demand 50 years ago when many areas of employment required Irish fluency and more people spoke the language? It was more practically useful back then yet people chose to let it die off? How do you explain that? And that's very relevant to this thread.
It is absolutely miniscule compared to the overall txting/tweeting/facebooking traffic in this country.

Why is what happened 50 years ago is relevant to the thread. The Language may well have been a requirement to get a job in the civil service at the time, that dose not mean that it was ever used again after you got the job.
Language trends are not played out over years, they are played out over generations. The trend twords decline in the use of the Welsh Language only halted around 30 years ago it has only started to grow again over the last 15 years or so, and that is with much more active support from the Welsh assembly and much wider spread Welsh Medium Education than is the case for Irish.
In the 50's in Ireland, the Irish Language was still very much in decline, this only started to slow in the 70's and has just about been halted over the last ten years.

The size of the Irish language youth sub culture is not the relevant fact, that it exists and is growing is the main point.

There are apparently 4065 schools in this country, 240 of them Gaelscoils, how many in Gaelthacht areas. Unless it's in the 1000's it's still a serious minority so again you're making moot points.

Again, the point is not that it is or is not a minority, but that the minority is growing.

So no then DgD. You don't have any evidence to back your previous opinion dressed up as fact claim that "It was tought(sic) for example that raising a child bilingualy(sic) would be damaging to their education and possibly even to their mental health".

If I find the source I will be sure to post it up, I can't remember where I read it, and dont really feel like spending the day reading through several books just to find something for a debate on Boards.

As for why they went out of fashion? Practicality mostly, with side orders of apathy and seeing Irish as out of date. That's of course my opinion, but it would appear to have more logic behind it.

Are you honestly saying that it is pratical for a polulation to abandon its native language? You think it is pratical for two people for whom Irish is their native language to learn and speak English to each other?
Its neither logical nor pratical, its downright unbelivable if not seen in the context of the effect of British policies at the time, and the truma of the Famine.

There are many reasons why the English Crown, and later the British State wanted to change Ireland's language to English, have a look at my sig to see some of the reasoning at the time, but practicality had nothing to do with it. It would have been far easier and far less expencive to simply have had British administrators speaking Irish than trying to convert the whole population to speaking English.

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

Thats fine, but nobody is getting anything beaten into them these days, and the language is more popular with young people than it ever has been.

:rolleyes:

Make Irish optional and cut junior cycle, say students

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0712/1224300558894.html

THE JUNIOR cycle at secondary school should be cut from three years to two, and the only compulsory subjects should be English and maths, according to young people asked about the future of the cycle.

A report on the consultation process and its conclusions was published by Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn and Minister for Children Frances Fitzgerald yesterday.
Ms Fitzgerald described as “interesting” the finding that the majority of young people did not want Irish to be a compulsory subject.

“What’s really important is to ask young people, to hear their views and to involve them.”

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/probe-as-more-pupils-shun-irish-2136421.html

Probe as more pupils shun Irish
Half of students exempted due to learning disability study other languages

According to provisional figures released to RTE, 2,297 Leaving Certificate candidates -- out of an estimated total of 55,455 -- will not sit Irish due to learning disabilities, but 1,326 of those same students have registered to sit an exam in French, Spanish or German.

Last year, 2,119 Leaving Certificate candidates had an exemption in Irish, 1,210 of whom did another European language. In 2008, 1,772 candidates had an exemption, and 1,044 of those sat an exam in another European language.

Across the entire second-level system, the total number of students with exemptions in Irish rose from around 20,000 in 2005/06 to the present figure of around 30,000.

There are 39 schools where 10 or more students have an exemption.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0415/1224268372279.html
Forcing students to learn Irish has failed, says Hayes

FORCING STUDENTS to learn Irish is not working and is driving young people away from the language, according to the Fine Gael spokesman on education and science Brian Hayes.

The 1,326 Leaving Cert students who are exempt from sitting Irish at the Leaving Cert but who were studying other languages, highlighted the major problems with the teaching of the Irish language, he said yesterday.

adam, – It has become painfully clear that many students will go to great lengths to avoid learning the Irish language (“Irish-Exempt students study other languages”, April 13th).

As somebody who achieved a higher level A1 in Irish in the 2003 Leaving Certificate, and would consider myself fluent in the language, I am torn. While I enjoyed studying Irish, I acknowledge fully that the benefits of learning it for so many years, and in such depth, end as soon as one completes secondary schooling at the age of 18. As difficult as it may be for many to digest at home, Irish is, to all intents and purposes, a dead language.

Perhaps it is time that the Department of Education reclassified Irish as an “optional” language. Forcing students into learning Irish as a mandatory subject from a young age serves no purpose. It does not keep the language alive, nor does it foster a love of it among our young people.

I work in the international arena in the United States, and in my line of work I would be a more valuable asset were I capable of speaking Mandarin Chinese, Russian or one of the Middle Eastern tongues (Persian, Arabic, etc) to the same level as I can speak Irish. While I have recently turned my hand to the intensive study of two new languages, the task of mastering a new language with consummate fluency becomes much more difficult as one gets older.

The Department of Education should move with the times, stop forcing Irish on our school students, and begin offering more internationally progressive languages from a younger age in schools around the country. – Yours, etc,

DAVID McDONNELL,

Mintwood Place NW,

Washington, DC, US.

National debate on Irish language now necessary

We have never had a national debate on compulsory learning and teaching of Irish up to Leaving Certificate level and also the necessity for students to pass Irish in the Leaving Certificate before they can register in the majority of third-level institutions.


"The compulsory Irish question" has become one of our romantic sacred cows and politicians, educationalists and the general public shy away from it while I believe that many students' education and lives are damaged because of their blinkered approach.


I speak the language, enjoy it and would dearly love to see it revived but I recognise from my work as a teacher and administrator for 41 years that the teaching of Irish has been an abject failure. Further, it certainly won't happen through forcing nearly all pupils to learn the subject (in most cases for 13 years) in an environment where adults are at best passive and in many cases hostile to it, due in the main to their own dreadful experiences in being "taught" Irish.

Our national aspiration in regard to the revival of the language is still, after 90 years, only an aspiration and students and teachers are the much damaged "guinea pigs" in the failed and failing carry-on around this aspiration. Certainly, those pupils and parents who want to have Irish as a subject should be facilitated in every way possible but hands off those who would choose not to take Irish as a subject.

Are students and parents not entitled to receive this type of respectful treatment from our legislators? Would someone please shout "stop" and be realistic about the language and admit to the huge gap between the aspirations and what is happening in our schools? Have we not had enough of this wishful thinking and pie in the sky about revival? The lives, education and welfare of our children has to come first. Would the politicians please take their courage in their hands and at least open up a meaningful and honest debate?


I know from my own experience that:

(a) Forcing students to learn Irish has not worked and I believe it impinges negatively on their attitudes and lives in school. The majority do not enjoy success in learning Irish in school and this hardly supports their other work.

(b) While many adults may like the language they rarely use it and are not prepared to put time and effort into learning and supporting it. It's a bit like parents who smoke and drink preaching about the evils of both to their children. This doesn't work either.


(c) For the majority of pupils the time spent on Irish would be more to their advantage if it was given to teaching them subjects which they want to learn. I know that the majority of students who leave school after Leaving Certificate cannot speak the language. In fact they cannot even engage in a basic conversation. After 13 years.


(d) All teachers at primary level have to teach the language, which is daft. I don't believe that all teachers can be effective in language teaching and if given the choice many would opt out of teaching it.
Why not have a national survey of primary teachers on this and also their views on how successful the teaching of Irish in our schools is?


(e) Many people (young and not so young) who want to train as primary teacers cannot do so because they haven't the necessary grades in Irish and they can't speak the language. This is unjust, unfair and discriminatory and has resulted in many potentially good teachers being driven away from the system. This, I believe, is a serious loss to the people themselves and to students in school communities. I have met many people who were barred from teaching because of this narrow and unfortunate regulation and I consider that the system is wrong.

(f) You can only enter one university in Ireland if you do not have Irish to Leaving Certificate level. This is unadulerated madness and beggars belief. It is really a type of apartheid which has official legislative support.

(g) I believe we should have a survey of the views and attitudes of 5th and 6th class students at primary level. Why not find out from them how they feel about being forced to learn Irish and how successful they think the "teaching" is? This type of survey would provide a golden opportunity to engage respectfully and meaningfully with our students.Lots more could be done with parents and adults with this type of work.

We need, our students need and the hoped-for revival of Irish needs new thinking, courage, honesty and change.The situation has to be looked at now. Please, politicians: get to work. There are many of us out there who will help.

David Fitzgerald Snr,
Co Dublin
June 27, 2010

Dubhlinner

murphaph wrote: »

We'd probably speak English like the Dutch do, quite well, but not quite native speaker level and with a limited vocabulary. I'm glad I am a native English speaker (though I do speak German too) and have found it to be an asset that I wouldn't have if we had done as the OP wishes we had wrt Gaelscoilleanna.

I was thinking of the Dutch actually but I think it would be the reverse of your scenario. Ie would have perfect English and near perfect Irish. Would also mean we'd be more likely to be good at other languages. The Dutch don't have limited English at all. They're pretty much fluent for the most part.

Its speculation of course but as pointed out kids from Gaeltachts tend to use facebook/twitter etc in English.

English was the spoken language at the time of the establishment of the free state. Its too useful a world language to disappear or even come second place.

Dubhlinner

murphaph wrote: »

We should prioritise English and maths skills tbh. Far too many people can't even spell properly.

Those in gaelscoils do better in English and Maths than other schools. There are of course other sociological factors for this - but even against similar demographics in English based schools this still holds up

LordSutch wrote: »

Bilingual, most definately Yes! but not with Irish as the second language. I would like my children to be fluent in English & either French or German, that way, when they leave school and travel the world (or settle abroad) they will have a useful tool, for both work options & for social skills. As you know 'deise go deo' from our previous exchanges on this topic, I am not anti-Irish language, far from it, but as I have explained many threads ago I think the compulsory nature of the "pressure to learn Irish" should be taken off the language, therefore allowing the language to breath & flourish and to find its natural level (in a positive environment) without being force fed. 'Gaelscoils are great' but they are not for the majority of the Irish population. My Grandad on my Mum's side spoke Irish fluently and that's a cool thing in retrospect, but at the time (just after the State was created) he literally had it beaten into him, thus giving him a hatred for Irish, which he then passed on to his children, who then passed on the hatred to their grandchildren, a hatered for the language that still lingers (not as hatred) but a kind of indifference to the Irish language that lasts to this day . . . .

I think that "Gaelscoils for all" would have been a disaster for the flegling State in the 1920s/30s, but I think in today's more tolerent climate 'Gaelscoils are great' for those parents who want their children to be fluent in Irish, and to have it as their second language, ahead of German or French.

I agree with you in theory. However I think making all the primary schools gaelscoil would actually help with what you want - ie speaking another (modern)language. Those who speak a second language find it so much easier to learn a third than the average person does a second. The current system of learning Irish in an English school just leads to wasting valuable time achieving nothing but poor to mediocre Irish.

When kids are immersed in Irish in primary school they don't learn a resentment to it. (ask anyone who went to gaelscoils) From being fluent in a second language they find it much easier to learn a third.

The current situation leads to a very poor level of learning modern languages. I think primary gaelscoils and turning secondary Irish into an optional literature subject would be the most logical solution to our problems.

I'd even be happy to have Deutschschule or Mandarin etc immersed schools too (like the way arab asian and european countries have english schools) Though not sure if demand would be there.

I basically think sending a kid to a school where they learn through another language is essentially giving them a free language and should be done where possible

hurling_lad

As well as the reason that I mentioned in my previous post (i.e. that Ireland was an english-speaking country) there weren't any immigrant children in the country at the time of the state's foundation and traveller children and children with learning disabilities weren't generally sent to school at the time either so there was no need for Gaeilscoileanna.

murphaph

Dubhlinner wrote: »

I was thinking of the Dutch actually but I think it would be the reverse of your scenario. Ie would have perfect English and near perfect Irish. Would also mean we'd be more likely to be good at other languages. The Dutch don't have limited English at all. They're pretty much fluent for the most part.

The Germans distinguish more clearly between fluent (fließend) and native speaker level (Muttersprachler) when refering to language ability. I speak pretty fluent German but not to native speaker levels (nor will I ever) . The Dutch speak English fluently, insofar as they know almost automatically how to form (almost) grammatically perfect sentences...but their vocabulary lets them down because they don't read as much English language newspapers etc. as they do Dutch ones. They aould also have almost no knowledge of English phrases and idioms IME.

It's like the story of the guy who didn't know what a "beaker" was in English. We'd all be like that. Able to communicate but at times stuck for words.

Dubhlinner wrote: »

English was the spoken language at the time of the establishment of the free state. Its too useful a world language to disappear or even come second place.

It has remained second place in the home in India and speak to most Indians and you'll soon realise that while they are proficient in English, also lack vocabulary and sometimes grammar, despite the education system in India favouring English.

90 years ago the world was a very different place. Multinational companies had barely been invented. If we had all had to enter an Irish only education system, there's a strong chance that we'd speak English like the Indians, or at best like the Dutch, but not as native speakers as with each passing generation, Irish would have come to dominate.

RichardAnd

murphaph wrote: »

We should prioritise English and maths skills tbh. Far too many people can't even spell properly.

And many have a penchant for tlas (three letter acronyms )

Dannyboy83

Dubhlinner wrote: »

The current situation leads to a very poor level of learning modern languages. I think primary gaelscoils and turning secondary Irish into an optional literature subject would be the most logical solution to our problems.

You are exactly right imo.
Either you fully immerse the kids in the language - turn all primary schools into gaelscoils, or you make it optional.
The current situation is just useless and satisfies nobody.

Dubhlinner

murphaph wrote: »

The Germans distinguish more clearly between fluent (fließend) and native speaker level (Muttersprachler) when refering to language ability. I speak pretty fluent German but not to native speaker levels (nor will I ever) . The Dutch speak English fluently, insofar as they know almost automatically how to form (almost) grammatically perfect sentences...but their vocabulary lets them down because they don't read as much English language newspapers etc. as they do Dutch ones. They aould also have almost no knowledge of English phrases and idioms IME.

It's like the story of the guy who didn't know what a "beaker" was in English. We'd all be like that. Able to communicate but at times stuck for words.

We don't know for sure how it would have panned out but I just think with English being the dominant language for so long prior to the free state it would have remained as the dominant language.

And certainly today there would be no going back whatsoever. The internet has ensured that.

It has remained second place in the home in India and speak to most Indians and you'll soon realise that while they are proficient in English, also lack vocabulary and sometimes grammar, despite the education system in India favouring English.

I don't know much about the history of India. Was English as widely spoken as a first language there by the majority of the population prior to independence to the extent of English being spoken in Ireland?

Also its difficult to compare because India is so massive and having multiple languages. Ireland only had English and Irish

90 years ago the world was a very different place. Multinational companies had barely been invented. If we had all had to enter an Irish only education system, there's a strong chance that we'd speak English like the Indians, or at best like the Dutch, but not as native speakers as with each passing generation, Irish would have come to dominate.

Of course is impossible for either of us to know we are right. I think we'd have muttersprachler English and fließend Irish but I see where you are coming from

murphaph

RichardAnd wrote: »

And many have a penchant for tlas (three letter acronyms )

Difference between acronyms and abbreviations

murphaph

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Of course is impossible for either of us to know we are right

Agreed 100%, all we can do is speculate. Whatever is done about Irish, the "do nothing" course of non-action is a non-runner. All the current system does is keep Irish teachers in jobs.

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

Why is what happened 50 years ago is relevant to the thread. The Language may well have been a requirement to get a job in the civil service at the time, that dose not mean that it was ever used again after you got the job.

Yes it does or did. That was one of my earlier points. It was required internally so it was in daily use. However when that requirement was dropped, already fluent speakers dropped using it.

Language trends are not played out over years, they are played out over generations.

Yes and the generations of free born Irish people since independence have spoken and the vast majority do so as Bearla.

The size of the Irish language youth sub culture is not the relevant fact, that it exists and is growing is the main point.

Nope it remains to be seen. That's the main point.

If I find the source I will be sure to post it up, I can't remember where I read it, and dont really feel like spending the day reading through several books just to find something for a debate on Boards.

Since you seem to believe this was a factual given one would think a quick google would suffice. Though against the evidence and common sense of history you may well be searching in print or on screen for a long time.

Are you honestly saying that it is pratical for a polulation to abandon its native language? You think it is pratical for two people for whom Irish is their native language to learn and speak English to each other?

Eh you're kinda missing the point yet again. It hasn't been the native language of the majority of the Irish population for a long time. It's not been the language of higher learning for many centuries before that. And what Irish are you suggesting is the native one? Donegal Irish(a particularly nice one to my ear personally), midlands Irish, school Irish, western Irish, south western Irish. Which is the "native" one. Should we seek to revive Yola, Norman French while we're at it?

But here we go, oul perfidious Albion as a reason wasn't long in the coming...

Its neither logical nor pratical, its downright unbelivable if not seen in the context of the effect of British policies at the time, and the truma of the Famine.

So you want to revive a minority language as some sort of cultural revenge? Clearly the majority don't agree with you beyond lip service and haven't done so once they were given the choice. Compare and contrast that with the languages of the ex Soviet bloc countries, who were even producing and smuggling books during the Russian occupations(and some were shot for their troubles). Look at the Basques who's language was beaten down by one invader or other for thousands of years right until the mid 1970's in Spain. Franco effectively banned all languages but Spanish, even banned non Spanish names for children for a time(though it was more and more ignored towards the end of his reign). I've heard more day to day ordinary spoken Basque en masse in a weekend on the razz in Bilbao than I've heard Irish in a lifetime in Ireland and I've been all over Ireland. Go back to 1950's Bilbao and I wouldn't have. Clearly the people and the people of the soviet umbrella wanted their languages more. We can continue to blame the English for all this, but they've not ruled here for nearly a century, yet Irish as a language has declined, with only a relatively recent so far small scale resurgence and that resurgence

There are many reasons why the English Crown, and later the British State wanted to change Ireland's language to English, have a look at my sig to see some of the reasoning at the time, but practicality had nothing to do with it. It would have been far easier and far less expencive to simply have had British administrators speaking Irish than trying to convert the whole population to speaking English.

Sheesh, if you want to go right back... OK ask yourself why Scots Gaelic is about the only early native language still around in Scotland and so close to Irish. It became that way on the back of trade and religious influx of Irish cultural and actual invaders. It was practical for the local Scots to lose their own local languages and dialects in the face of this. English in the form of Anglo Saxon did similar down south. The invading languages usually pick up some local flavour along the way that enriches it. English a particularly good example chock full of loan words and structure. If you live in a bungalow and end up shampooing your hair this evening, you've just used two Indian words picked up by the invaders/traders. Hell there's good reason why so many giants of english literature are Irish. This is how languages tend to die out/evolve and you see examples of it throughout the world and throughout history.

swimming in a sea

some people say Irish is a compulsory subject and that's not really true any more time was if you wanted to go to university you had to have Irish, but now at least two universities DCU and UL do not require Irish.

I went to UL 15 years ago with no Irish, I refused to do it in secondary school and was able to devote my study to real subjects and get a place in university, best move I ever made.
So any children out there make sure you know your options before accepting that you have to do Irish.