Barry McGuigan vs Azumah Nelson at Featherweight

tryingmybestt

McGuigan v Nelson at 126lbs....

both great champions

the greatest ever african boxer against the greatest irish boxer IMO

Great fight, both can bang...who wins?

walshb

peak tp peak I cannot look past Nelson. Has it all, and is more versatile. Better going backwards too. Strong as hell, heavy handed, solid beard and all around a deadlier puncher. Barry fights his heart out, and may make 12, but could get stopped rd 11 or 12. UD loss for Barry. I see Nelson pushing Barry back, forcing him on the back foot and taking control. Strength will be the deciding factor.

tryingmybestt

for me i favour McGuigan to win on points or late stoppage

they were both very hard hitters, i'd give an edge to mcguigan in power

Mcguigan was much the better boxer with much shorter crisper shots.....mcguigan had an excellent defence with his superior head movement...

nelson had brute strength but his punches were wild and i feel mcguigan would pick him apart with his excellent jab and short hooks, uppercut and right hands...

mcguigan had it all IMO, speed, power, fitness, defence, chin.......nelson was great but mcguigan was greater IMO

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

peak tp peak I cannot look past Nelson. Has it all, and is more versatile. Better going backwards too. Strong as hell, heavy handed, solid beard and all around a deadlier puncher. Barry fights his heart out, and may make 12, but could get stopped rd 11 or 12. UD loss for Barry. I see Nelson pushing Barry back, forcing him on the back foot and taking control. Strength will be the deciding factor.

i definitely feel mcguigan was more versatile....that's what made him so great...he could box and punch...go forward, circle and box on the back foot.....nelson was more aggressive with a good defence by keeping his guard up.....he wasnt as good a boxer and his punches were much wilder than barry's

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

for me i favour McGuigan to win on points or late stoppage

they were both very hard hitters, i'd give an edge to mcguigan in power

Mcguigan was much the better boxer with much shorter crisper shots.....mcguigan had an excellent defence with his superior head movement...

nelson had brute strength but his punches were wild and i feel mcguigan would pick him apart with his excellent jab and short hooks, uppercut and right hands...

mcguigan had it all IMO, speed, power, fitness, defence, chin.......nelson was great but mcguigan was greater IMO

Wow, we disagree. I never saw Barry as all that effective when pushed back. You did?

I would be screaming for Barry. But, I cannot see how he is a better boxer, and his defense was far from great. He took an awful lot. Pedroza, who was 32 I think at the time, and on the slide big time, hit Barry with a helluva lot.

As did LaPorte before him. Nelson was so solid, strong and heavy handed too. He was made of rock. Too much firepower and variation, not to mention he was very rugged and vicious.

Nelson will be the boss inside, and outside, will make Barry go backwards, will realise that Barry really dislikes not going forward, and will push the pace and force Barry back.

Nelson's chin too was solid, his fitness top notch. The intangibles are identical here, that is why I will go with the man with more versatility and the stronger specimen at the weight.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

I would be screaming for Barry. But, I cannot se how he is a better boxer, and his defense was far from great. He took an awful lot. Pedroza, who was 32 I think at the time, and on the slide big time, hit Barry with a helluva lot.

As did LaPorte before him. Nelson was so solid, strong and heavy handed too. He was made of rock. Too much firepower and variation, not to mention he was very rugged and vicious.

Nelson will be the boss inside, and outsided, will make Barry go backwards, will realise that Barry really dislikes not going forward, and will push the pace and force Barry back.

Nelson's chin too was solid, his fitness top notch. The intangibles are identical here, that is why I will go with the man with more versatility and the stronger specimen at the weight.

mcguigan had an excellent defence with hisexcellent slips and head movement

pedroza is one of the greatest featherweights of all time....of course he's going to get hit in that fight...

nelson's defence was much worse than barry's....look at his first fight with jeff fenech that he clearly lost and was battered for the whole fight....

nelson was strong and could bang but IMO barry hits harder, is faster, much better boxer and better technique

nelson relied more on strength and power and toughness....mcguigan had these qualities but also other attributes that nelson didnt have IMO

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Nelson's chin too was solid, his fitness top notch. The intangibles are identical here, that is why I will go with the man with more versatility and the stronger specimen at the weight.

on the basis of their records you'd have to say barry had the slightly better chin...nelson was ko'd by sanchez.....barry's only ever stoppage loss was when he was stopped on cuts

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

nelson's defence was much worse than barry's....look at his first fight with jeff fenech that he clearly lost and was battered for the whole fight....

Is this match at 126 lbs, when both were at peak, in and around 1985-1986? Or is it when Nelson was at SFW, suffering from malaria, and getting beaten by Fenech in 1991? If it's at 126 lbs, when both were at peak, what has Fenech at SFW in 1991 got to do with anything? Just beating you to the punch, as I am sure if I brought up something similar I'd be met with, "that's not relevant."

As for your chin comparison: Nelson was still pretty "green" when in '82 he was finally dropped and stopped by a great Sal Sanchez, in Sanchez' 46th bout. His chin was grade A at peak.

terrymccarthy05

Nelson would have stopped him inside three rounds

section4

tryingmybestt wrote: »

on the basis of their records you'd have to say barry had the slightly better chin...nelson was ko'd by sanchez.....barry's only ever stoppage loss was when he was stopped on cuts

on the basis of their records nelson is much the superior fighter

and he was, mcguigan wanted no part of him and would not have lasted too long

mcguigan liked to fight guys who did not hit too hard and he would have been hit hard and often by nelson, if they fought in the mid eighties .

mcguigan didnt really beat anyone of note who was in their prime and a danger pedroza was well past it.

walshb

terrymccarthy05 wrote: »

Nelson would have stopped him inside three rounds

Although I believe Nelson wins, and 9/10 times too, I think three rds is a bit early here. Barry in 1985 was a beast. Had great stamina, very good beard and was as resilient as they come. I think Nelson breaks him quite late, or maybe decision via UD, like 8-4, 7-4-1 in rds. Wilfredo Gomez lasted 11 rds when he met Nelson in 1984, and I am confident that Barry is every bit as tough and strong as Gomez, with a better beard too. 3 rds is a big stretch.

walshb

section4 wrote: »

mcguigan liked to fight guys who did not hit too hard and he would have been hit hard and often by nelson, .

Do you know of any fighters who liked to?;)

section4

walshb wrote: »

Do you know of any fighters who liked to?;)

The point being he was well managed and steered away from people who had a bit of power, note the knock out percentages of the guys he fought and their records

walshb

section4 wrote: »

The point being he was well managed and steered away from people who had a bit of power, note the knock out percentages of the guys he fought and their records

Juan LaPorte could bang, and did bang. Barry took some whoppers from him. Well managed my arse. He was a top rated FW, and did beat the legit champ too. Can't fight everyone.

barney4001

section4 wrote: »

The point being he was well managed and steered away from people who had a bit of power, note the knock out percentages of the guys he fought and their records

exactly your on the button there ,any of these 2 would have beaten barry easily i think
sanchez was killed in a car crash at just 23 years


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BllfooQQcZM

walshb

Sanchez would have beaten Barry, but easily? Sanchez had close and competitive scraps with men not as good as Barry. Danny Lopez and Pat Cowdell gave him very decent scraps. Cowdell lost via SD. Juan LaPorte too gave him a good scrap.

Barry at peak causes Sal a great deal of issues. Power, chin, brilliant stamina, toughness and work rate. Sal will be made work very hard to win. This "easily" talk is nonsense when one looks at both men, their styles, what they had, and how they used it.

Barry pushes Sal a hell of a lot, and I wouldn't be surprised if he got a win or two in a 5 fight series. Yes, I would make Sal a favourite, but it's no way an easy task. I think Nelson poses more problems for Barry than Sal.

Sal wasn't a killer in the strictest of senses. He was an all around patient and composed boxer/puncher/slugger. Did enough, kept ahead and always in control. Barry can make it the distance here, and can land a hell of a lot, and is capable of taking a great shot.

tryingmybestt

mcguigan fought everyone and fought a top 10 all time FW in Pedroza who was only 32, hardly old......

mcguigan was going to the US to build his profile for the bigger fights thats why he fought cruz.....

nelson was ko'd by sanchez in 1982......accordin wo walshb his chin wasnt as good then but in 84 or 86 it was better?

nelson lost to the best men he fought....he lost to samchez, whitaker, leija couple of times, hernandez.....he beat gomez who was at the end of his career.......if one followed the logic of section 4 they could also say his opponents were cherrypicked

barry's opponents around the time he was champion had excellent record....he fought everyone in europe and he was going to the US to take on the p4p best but unfortunately we all kno what happened against cruz

tryingmybestt

section4 wrote: »

on the basis of their records nelson is much the superior fighter

and he was, mcguigan wanted no part of him and would not have lasted too long

mcguigan liked to fight guys who did not hit too hard and he would have been hit hard and often by nelson, if they fought in the mid eighties .

mcguigan didnt really beat anyone of note who was in their prime and a danger pedroza was well past it.

is there any substance for any of the comments above??

on the basis of their record nelson is much superior??? mcguigan had the better record !

mcguigan wanted no part of nelson??? how can u say this??

mcguigan liked to fight guys who didnt hit too hard?? again how can u say this....do u know barry personally or something and he told you all of this??

mcguigan didnt really beat anyone in their prime?? what about Taylor 33-0-1 or Cabrere 23-2 or Cruz 25-1 or tomas da cruz 35-2 or Miranda 29-1-3 or McDonnell 25-1????

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

nelson was ko'd by sanchez in 1982......accordin wo walshb his chin wasnt as good then but in 84 or 86 it was better?

The match is at peak, I assume? Now, in 1982 Nelson was green, in his 13th pro bout against a great Sanchez, 45 bouts in. He FINALLY got stopped in rd 15. You using this bout, as some barmoeter as to why Barry had a better chin, to me is off. It needs looking at. Both at peak, then I believe Nelson's chin was every bit as good as Barry's. Not better, as good I think.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

The match is at peak, I assume? Now, in 1982 Nelson was green, in his 13th pro bout against a great Sanchez, 45 bouts in. He FINALLY got stopped in rd 15. You using this bout, as some barmoeter as to why Barry had a better chin, to me is off. It needs looking at. Both at peak, then I believe Nelson's chin was every bit as good as Barry's. Not better, as good I think.

so your agreeing with my analysis of your statement

you feel nelsons chin changed drastically n a couple of years!!

yes he was green and not as skillfull but IMO his ability to take a punch wouldnt have changed too much....barry was never stopped even when green

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

so your agreeing with my analysis of your statement

you feel nelsons chin changed drastically n a couple of years!!

yes he was green and not as skillfull but IMO his ability to take a punch wouldnt have changed too much....barry was never stopped even when green

We debated extensively on another thread about chin, and many many agreed with my analyis. Age, maturity and experience all can HELP a man take a better shot. To this, Nelson aged, was more experienced and was stronger in 1985/1986 than in 1982.

Also, why dismiss that it was AFTER 14 rds that he finally crumbled. That's 14.5 rds before Nelosn was stopped.

Your using Nelson aged 23 or so, in his 13th bout, in 1982, against Sanchez, who took 14.5 rds to halt him, as some barometer as to why Barry's chin is better, to me, is flawed!

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

We debated extensively on another thread about chin, and many many agreed with my analyis. Age, maturity and experience all can HELP a man take a better shot. To this, Nelson aged, was more experienced and was stronger in 1985/1986 than in 1982.

Also, why dismiss that it was AFTER 14 rds that he finally crumbled. That's 14.5 rds before Nelosn was stopped.

i dont think 'many' agreed....ans some said it may be due to the added weight of ali etc.....not age, usually a fighters chin gets worse as he ages

when nelson fought sanchez he was immensely strong...this is why sanchez had problems with him....snachez didnt have the power of mcguigan IMO

how can u say nelson was stronger in 85/86??....for me he was struggling badly to make FW in 85/86 and was probably a lot weaker as a result

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

i dont think 'many' agreed....ans some said it may be due to the added weight of ali etc.....not age, usually a fighters chin gets worse as he ages

when nelson fought sanchez he was immensely strong...this is why sanchez had problems with him....snachez didnt have the power of mcguigan IMO

how can u say nelson was stronger in 85/86??....for me he was struggling badly to make FW in 85/86 and was probably a lot weaker as a result

I got more thanks on that thread than on any other;)

Anyway, is it peak vs. peak, you still have not answered?

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

I got more thanks on that thread than on any other;)

Anyway, is it peak vs. peak, you still have not answered?

wow your amazing

i dont look for confirmation from other posters to back up my points like you do

also that thread was about many other issues besides chin

tryingmybestt

nobody else edits every post like you!!

you keep going back over your older posts and editing them and changing and adding to them depending on how the debate is going

hardly fair IMO !

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

wow your amazing

i dont look for confirmation from other posters to back up my points like you do

also that thread was about many other issues besides chin

Grow a sense of humor for chrissake; I am havin' a laugh.

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

nobody else edits every post like you!!

you keep going back over your older posts and editing them and changing and adding to them depending on how the debate is going

hardly fair IMO !

I am a stickler for spelling/grammar, and that is why many many edits occur. Shoot me!

Very very very very few edits relate to a change of fact or opinion.

Just edited there now. Ha!

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

I am a stickler for spelling, and that is why many man edits occur. Shoot me!

Very very very very few edits relate to a change of fact or opinion.

IMO many edits occur when you realise your argument is flawed so you backtrack and change your points

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

IMO many edits occur when you realise your argument is flawed so you backtrack and change your points

If that makes you feel better, so be it!

Anyway, this thread ain't going your way much, is it.:D

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

If that makes you feel better, so be it!

Anyway, this thread ain't going your way much, is it.:D

i'm not like you in the sense of needing validation from other posters about the points i make


also i wont then backtrack when i see ppl disagreeing with me, il stand by my original point

i'm not looking to get lots of 'thanks' like you seem to be :rolleyes:

i prefer to have a debate

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

i'm not like you in the sense of needing validation from other posters about the points i make


also i wont then backtrack when i see ppl disagreeing with me, il stand by my original point

i'm not looking to get lots of 'thanks' like you seem to be :rolleyes:

i prefer to have a debate

Oh the faces, one's a smile, one's a sarcy. I don't know how to take you now:o

Anyway, maybe we should be backing Barry, as some here seem to think he gets beaten very easily against Nelson and Sanchez.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Oh the faces, ones a smile, ones a sarcy. I don't know how to take you now:o

Anyway, maybe we should be backing Barry, as some here seem to think he gets beaten very easily against Nelson and Sanchez.

barry gives any FW in history a tough fight ...no doubt IMO

McGuigan v Nelson

Strength - advantage nelson
power - advantage barry
speed - advantage barry
jab - advantage barry
size and reach - advantage barry
defence - advantage barry
boxing ability - advantage barry
footwork - big advantage barry....nelson was clumsy leaping forward
chin - very slight advantage to barry
technique - big advantage barry
upper body movement - advantage barry

other than nelson being probably a little stronger how is he better than barry?

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

barry gives any FW in history a tough fight ...no doubt IMO

McGuigan v Nelson

Strength - advantage nelson
power - advantage barry
speed - advantage barry
jab - advantage barry
size and reach - advantage barry
defence - advantage barry
boxing ability - advantage barry
footwork - big advantage barry....nelson was clumsy leaping forward,
chin - very slight advantage to barry
technique - big advantage barry
upper body movement - advantage barry

other than nelson being probably a little stronger how is he better than barry?

Barry at peak is a hell of a tough fight for anyone, and he give Nelson a lot think about, Nelson is simply better. Too good, and prevails by UD or late stoppage. That is how I see it.

Thread over. For me, I mean.

tryingmybestt

for me mcguigan's style is very similar to sanchez

both were excellent slick boxers who could bang

this is a very close one to call IMO...probably be a cagey fight until someone is rocked

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Nelson is simply better..

great explanation of how hes better lol

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

great explanation of how hes better lol

Well, when you explain it two to three times it gets a bit tiring! "Simply better" will now suffice.

section4

walshb wrote: »

Juan LaPorte could bang, and did bang. Barry took some whoppers from him. Well managed my arse. He was a top rated FW, and did beat the legit champ too. Can't fight everyone.

Laporte had a knock out percentage of 38%, thats not a banger, thats a boxer, and he hardly tried against mcguigan.

MGuigan was very well managed, i liked him but I like the truth better and could see clearly he was avoiding guys who could hit a bit, he had awful trouble with charm chituele he was well beat by cruz, Pedroza was well past it.

He never fought any one with more than a 50% knockouit ratio

he was stopped by mcdonnell, a light puncher

he asked his corner to pray for him agaisnt cruz

he was alright when he was well matched but when he was in a real battle he was not very stong willed

tryingmybestt

section4 wrote: »

he was stopped by mcdonnell, a light puncher

he asked his corner to pray for him agaisnt cruz

he was alright when he was well matched but when he was in a real battle he was not very stong willed

he was stopped on cuts against mcdonnell

against cruz mcguigan showed the heart of a lion

he was totally dehydrated and exhausted but he fought on round after round

anyone will say the cruz fight was a battle, it was ring fight of the year, and mcguigan showed his metal there

the pedroza fight was a war....he didnt show his will there??

walshb

section4 wrote: »

he asked his corner to pray for him agaisnt cruz

What?

And what has this plea from a man close to death got to do with anything?

Did you watch the performance, the effort, the intensity, the pain, the hurt and the hellacious struggle Barry put up in 120 degree heat in Las Vegas, for 15 rds?

Like I said, the most courageous effort I have ever seen in any sporting encounter, and you use it as some sort of crutch to hit him with, to question his will, or desire?

tryingmybestt

the fact that he asked his corner to pray for him showed his mentality and warrior spirit.....he wasn't going to quit like many would and he knew he was going to struggle on and battle even though he was in bits from the heat

mcguigan had a great engine as shown over and over but from the early rounds against cruz he was suffering badly from the heat

section4

walshb wrote: »

What?

And what has this plea from a man close to death got to do with anything?

Did you watch the performance, the effort, the intensity, the pain, the hurt and the hellacious struggle Barry put up in 120 degree heat in Las Vegas, for 15 rds?

Like I said, the most courageous effort I have ever seen in any sporting encounter, and you use it as some sort of crutch to hit him with.

yes i watched it and as i expected once he fought a guy who was ambitious and would hit him back regularly he didnt like it, nothing to do with the heat, his problem was he was in with a guy who was going to hit him back and hurt him.

tryingmybestt

section4 wrote: »

yes i watched it and as i expected once he fought a guy who was ambitious and would hit him back regularly he didnt like it, nothing to do with the heat, his problem was he was in with a guy who was going to hit him back and hurt him.

nobody minds somebody disagreeing with their point of view but when someone continuously makes these sort of comments all your doing is ruining your credibility and undermining your understanding of boxing

to say the heat had nothing to do with it is laughable......anyone who watched the fight will admit that

cruz wasn't a huge banger

you don't think pedroza hit him back? you don't think pedroza, 32 or not, was ambitious, one of the greatest FW's of all time...

that night the heat beat barry

section4

tryingmybestt wrote: »

he was stopped on cuts against mcdonnell

against cruz mcguigan showed the heart of a lion

he was totally dehydrated and exhausted but he fought on round after round

anyone will say the cruz fight was a battle, it was ring fight of the year, and mcguigan showed his metal there

the pedroza fight was a war....he didnt show his will there??

Pedroza was not a hard hitter and was past it , it was an old man with not a lot of energy fighting a young fresh man full of energy, it was a perfect match up for mcguigan and his team had the money to make it happen .that was not a war, a war is when two equal sides fight.

walshb

section4 wrote: »

yes i watched it and as i expected once he fought a guy who was ambitious and would hit him back regularly he didnt like it, nothing to do with the heat, his problem was he was in with a guy who was going to hit him back and hurt him.

And had nothing to do with Barry being Irish, pasty white, from a cold climate facing a Latino/Mexican, who was born and raised in desert kind of heat, and both fighting in 100 plus degrees of heat. You don't think that at all could be a bigger affect on the pasty white Irishman?

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

And had nothing to do with Barry being Irish, pasty white, from a cold climate facing a Latino/Mexican, who was born and raised in desert kind of heat, and both fighting in 100 plus degrees of heat. You don't think that at all could be a bigger affect on the pasty white Irishman?

exactly

terrymccarthy05

tryingmybestt wrote: »

he was stopped on cuts against mcdonnell

against cruz mcguigan showed the heart of a lion

he was totally dehydrated and exhausted but he fought on round after round

anyone will say the cruz fight was a battle, it was ring fight of the year, and mcguigan showed his metal there

the pedroza fight was a war....he didnt show his will there??

Mcdonnell and Cruz were useless

walshb

Jim was useless, that is why Nelson took 12 rds to finally beat that useless fighter.

tryingmybestt

lol

section4

walshb wrote: »

And had nothing to do with Barry being Irish, pasty white, from a cold climate facing a Latino/Mexican, who was born and raised in desert kind of heat, and both fighting in 100 plus degrees of heat. You don't think that at all could be a bigger affect on the pasty white Irishman?

it had an effect yes, but if mcguigan was as good as you are making out he should not have had any trouble with stevie cruz, cruz had not beaten anyone of note, was a light puncher, McGuigan picked him cos it
was suppposed to be an easy fight to promote mcguigan in the states.

I never heard mcguigan looking to fight guys like Espargozza or villasana, never mind nelson

tryingmybestt

section4 wrote: »

it had an effect yes, but if mcguigan was as good as you are making out he should not have had any trouble with stevie cruz, cruz had not beaten anyone of note, was a light puncher, McGuigan picked him cos it
was suppposed to be an easy fight to promote mcguigan in the states.

I never heard mcguigan looking to fight guys like Espargozza or villasana, never mind nelson

cruz wasn't bad...he beat tracy patterson and had him on the floow....patterson gave gatti trouble at SFW....not a bad scalp

if you put any british or irish fighter into a sauna and ask them to box a mexican i think you will see a different fighter.....its common sense

section4

tryingmybestt wrote: »

cruz wasn't bad...he beat tracy patterson and had him on the floow....patterson gave gatti trouble at SFW....not a bad scalp

if you put any british or irish fighter into a sauna and ask them to box a mexican i think you will see a different fighter.....its common sense

ken buchanan seemd to do alright agaisnt ismael laguna in the heat, but then again Buchanan is a different class to McGuigan and emphasises my point, McGuigan was good but not great