Pepper Spray

Hobbitfeet

Is pepper spray legal? I see the law has changed and you can now use force to protect yourself and home from intruders.
So could you use pepper spray to protect yourself if someone tried to break in?

Think_then_talk

Pepper Spray's, CS gas spray & Stun guns, are totally prohibited in Ireland and firearm certificates are not granted for these weapons.
http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Individuals

Zambia

Only if you took it off the attacker I suppose. I saw a bloke use it to try and steal a bag of cash by connolly station once. Offenders do have it.

Corruptable

This question is frequently asked, so there's tons of comment and opinion on it which can be found using the search function.

However, to answer your question, the Criminal Law (Defence and the Dwelling) Act 2012 has no impact on this issue. Tasers, batons, contact stun guns, rubber bullet guns (as recently featured in part one of RTE's Hostile Environment documentary), pepper or OC spray, knives, swords and any other article intended to cause harm to another is illegal and most cases are prosecuted under Section 9(4) of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990.

However, it is likely that you could plead self-defence (or legitimate defence) if you used one of these items and it resulted in harm or death to an assailant but this would not exempt you from prosecution for possession of the item.

Punishment for possession (other than a fine of at least €1,000) is a max of 12 months at summary (District Court) level and five years at indictable (Circuit Court) level.

As pointed out, criminals do have it and much worse. All the prohibited items are ridiculously easy to obtain, and proper regulation for much of them, akin to other EU countries such as France, would probably be a better outcome.

Hobbitfeet

Thanks for the info. There has been a lot of robberies lately in this area and I'm currently 9 months pregnant and was getting a bit worried about being here on my own. Someone had told me the law had changed recently and you were now allowed shot someone in self defence? I don't own a gun and don't want to thought pepper spray would be a good idea

MagicSean

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

Thanks for the info. There has been a lot of robberies lately in this area and I'm currently 9 months pregnant and was getting a bit worried about being here on my own. Someone had told me the law had changed recently and you were now allowed shot someone in self defence? I don't own a gun and don't want to thought pepper spray would be a good idea

It doesn't work on everyone and would only buy you a few minutes.

Hobbitfeet

Maybe that's all I'd need to protect myself and baby, to get to neighbours house or something. What would you suggest?

Zambia

Take it from me pepper spray is not the fix all solution you think it is. Sometimes it does not work and sometimes you both get a dose of it.

Best you invest it door locks and secure windows.

Procrastastudy

In all honesty most robbers will bolt at the first sign there's someone in the place as they're plenty of empty place to rob. You'd be much better off turning your back and saying "on ya go lads". You're life / babies life is worth more than the few items they are going to lift. I realise insurance may not be an option and the loss of stuff you work hard for is the crap end of the stick for anyone but 'things' can be replaced.

Some practical advice would be some sort of alarm - not an installed one - the canister types make as much noise as possible. If the worst comes to the worst shout fire as if you're shouting anything else it doesn't affect people so it tends to get ignored. Wonderful the world in which we live.

Hobbitfeet

Thanks Zambia, there is locks on all the doors and windows. Seem safe enough we are in rented house so it would be up to landlord to upgrade them if he wanted.
Its my 1st baby and I'm just starting to worry about crazy things like this happening. There has been some robberies where people are pretending to be from council etc to get you to open the door.

Procrastastudy

I live in an okay area but never open the door to anyone unless they've rung me on the mobile first. Could be the TV licence people for Gods sake!!!

House? Great ID though letter box or bugger off - if you want the meter reading I'll go get it for you!

benway

I'd take every reasonable precaution - locks, alarm, making sure callers show ID, etc. - and then not worry too much about it. The overwhelming likelihood is that your house won't be broken into while anyone's home, especially if you've taken reasonable care to secure the place.

Congratulations on the new arrival!

Victor

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

I'm currently 9 months pregnant

Congratulations!

I suspect using pepper spray indoors / in a confined space isn't good.

Corruptable wrote: »

However, it is likely that you could plead self-defence (or legitimate defence) if you used one of these items and it resulted in harm or death to an assailant but this would not exempt you from prosecution for possession of the item.

Questions may be asked as to why you had a dangerous weapon and if you pre-planned using it on someone. Suddenly a simple possession charge becomes much more serious.

As pointed out, criminals do have it and much worse.

Some criminals have them, not all.

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

There has been a lot of robberies lately in this area and I'm currently 9 months pregnant and was getting a bit worried about being here on my own. Someone had told me the law had changed recently and you were now allowed shot someone in self defence? I don't own a gun and don't want to thought pepper spray would be a good idea

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

There has been a lot of robberies lately in this area and I'm currently 9 months pregnant and was getting a bit worried about being here on my own.

Being protective is perfectly understandable, however weapons usually aren't the best idea. Not least that the weapon could be turned against you.

Someone had told me the law had changed recently and you were now allowed shot someone in self defence?

The law hasn't really changed. All that was changed was that accepted practice (common law) was codified into statute law.

MagicSean

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

Maybe that's all I'd need to protect myself and baby, to get to neighbours house or something. What would you suggest?

Sturdy locks on windows and doors
Alarm
Big dog
Outdoor lights
CCTV
Electric gates

In that order of priority

Hobbitfeet

Thanks everyone for the replies and advice will be taking it all on board. Don't think I would usually worry so much but with 1st baby due any day crazy things like this are hard to shake off

Zambia

Get use to the worry its all part of having kids, I wish I could say it passes.

Enjoy the ride

Procrastastudy

How much flaming will typing the word "hormones" get me?

Seriously though congrats on the baby!

Big dog that's gonna scare off a knacker + new baby probably not the best idea but the rest of the list is good :P

Ayla

Sounds nuts, but I would second the 'big dog' suggestion...

We have a Great Dane who is sheer useless as a guard dog (she literally will hide if we try to suggest she goes to the door to investigate an odd sound) but no one else knows that. She does have a deep bark which she brings out the odd time and since any potential thugs would see her out in the yard I feel 200% safe in our unsecured (unlocked when home) house.

However, as taking on a dog of any size isn't always desired, there are alternatives...I've seen motion detectors that let out a deep bark when they go off. It'd be enough to be a deterant if anyone's skulking around. There are also (I think) handheld "barkers" that you can set off if you find someone's broken in.

johnnyskeleton

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

There has been a lot of robberies lately in this area and I'm currently 9 months pregnant and was getting a bit worried about being here on my own.

Congratulations. I'm not a medical doctor or anything, but I suspect you won't be there on your own for much longer!

Del2005

There are plenty of legal items in every home that can be used to protect yourself if necessary.

But your better off keeping the people out than a heavily pregnant woman, or with a new born baby, trying to deal with the scum. Contact you LL and ask for a upgraded locks. It'll be of benefit for you, reduce your stress, and they can claim tax relief on them.

Corruptable

Victor wrote: »

Questions may be asked as to why you had a dangerous weapon and if you pre-planned using it on someone. Suddenly a simple possession charge becomes much more serious.

I had figured that, as a matter of interest, what would you be looking at in that case? There a many people I know from all ages and classes who possess such articles with that premeditated intent. It would be useful to forewarn them of the possible consequences although I'm sure some would continue to chance it and prefer to be "judged by 12 rather than be carried by six".

/ begin rant

Personally I think our laws (and the UK laws) in the area are too broad, and are framed from a nanny-state perspective. While I know countries elsewhere in the EU have the odd crime involving these items which can be lawfully sold over the counter in these countries the problem in our context is that mature, law abiding people can't get them but dodgy individuals easily have their hands on them, and in many cases, worse items.

For instance, I recently heard of a person from overseas who has a stockpile of firearms available locally, and I'm sure dodgy individuals have heard of this person too, so I can only imagine that money is changing hands. This is a rural area as well, so it was quite worrying when I heard it first time.

The fact is that violent crime is on the uptake from what I hear with US-style home invasions involving knives occurring with worrying frequency while the resources given to the gardai and the morale of the force are dwindling, this means a longer response times and an increased likelihood of homeowners confronting assailants. So I say level the playing field somewhat, do like the French and require medical certification, copies of ID, and a register of sales, and legislate for the use of such items in limited circumstances (i.e.: within the dwelling).

/ end of rant.

Pkiernan

Victor wrote: »

Being protective is perfectly understandable, however weapons usually aren't the best idea. Not least that the weapon could be turned against you.

.

Totally bogus argument, and usually used by people who think there should be nor right to self defense (not saying you believe that).

While here temporarily in Arizona, I carry a self defense weapon, and I have no qualms that it will be taken away from me.

And so what if it was? If an armed intruder is set on doing you harm, then so what if he takes your pepper spray away from you. He was probably going to knife/shoot you in the first place.

As to the legalities of self defense in Ireland, we still have none. If you injure an intruder, and he escapes to tell the tale, you will be in more trouble than him.

Procrastastudy

I'd take the situation in Ireland over the situation in the US any day of the week!

Corruptable

Pkiernan wrote: »

As to the legalities of self defense in Ireland, we still have none. If you injure an intruder, and he escapes to tell the tale, you will be in more trouble than him.

In my view that's a valid point. Even with the right to defend one's dwelling codified by the new Act, the fact is that the scales are still tilted in favour of the criminals in some respects. It is still the home owner who will be subjected to the more serious scrutiny (than the invader) of the criminal justice system for their actions.

Both Ireland and the UK have had the controversial cases (Tony Martin in the UK and the Nally case here) in which common sense only narrowly prevailed, with both ending in initial convictions. In the Nally case, there was thankfully a jury nullification. I think it is shocking that to do right required the jury to actually go against and disregard the established law to achieve a just outcome.

Del2005

Pkiernan wrote: »

As to the legalities of self defense in Ireland, we still have none. If you injure an intruder, and he escapes to tell the tale, you will be in more trouble than him.

That's why you always put the 1st bullet in the person, shout stop or I'll shoot again and then shoot the wall

benway

Corruptable wrote: »

In my view that's a valid point. Even with the right to defend one's dwelling codified by the new Act, the fact is that the scales are still tilted in favour of the criminals in some respects. It is still the home owner who will be subjected to the more serious scrutiny (than the invader) of the criminal justice system for their actions.

Both Ireland and the UK have had the controversial cases (Tony Martin in the UK and the Nally case here) in which common sense only narrowly prevailed, with both ending in initial convictions. In the Nally case, there was thankfully a jury nullification. I think it is shocking that to do right required the jury to actually go against and disregard the established law to achieve a just outcome.

There always was a common law right to use reasonable force in defence of property, the new Act is only populist grandstanding, doesn't change the position one iota.

Tony Martin shot the guy in the back as he was running away and Nally killed Frog Ward by shooting him at close range, having already disabled him with his first shot - hardly reasonable force by anyone's definition, even under the new legislation.

Both deserved jail, if you ask me - would even go so far as to say that Nally would be getting off lightly with a manslaughter conviction.

Corruptable wrote: »

The fact is that violent crime is on the uptake from what I hear with US-style home invasions involving knives occurring with worrying frequency

Not necessarily the case. Burglary levels have been steady over the past five years, while there has been a slight upswing in aggravated burglary, it's still moving around a mean of 300 or so per year. 300 or so too many, granted, but hardly an epidemic.

http://www.cso.ie/Quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=cja01c12.asp&TableName=Burglary+and+related+offences&StatisticalProduct=DB_CJ

Actually, even the Gardaí are of the view that the fear of crime in this country is out of proportion to the threat, and negatively impacts on people's quality of life.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Fear%20of%20Crime%20in%20Ireland.pdf/Files/Fear%20of%20Crime%20in%20Ireland.pdf

Pkiernan wrote:

As to the legalities of self defense in Ireland, we still have none. If you injure an intruder, and he escapes to tell the tale, you will be in more trouble than him.

Care to explain?

fitz265

the law changed and your aloud to protect yourself and home so i would asume peper spray would be perfectly leagal to use me personaly i would use any means neccesay to protect my family and home

Del2005

fitz265 wrote: »

the law changed and your aloud to protect yourself and home so i would asume peper spray would be perfectly leagal to use me personaly i would use any means neccesay to protect my family and home

Pepper spray is totally illegal in this country for Joe Public. If you use it on someone in your house you're going to have to answer a lot of questions.

I can't understand why people are so into pepper spray or CS when everyone's house is full to the gills with completely legal serious chemicals that can do more or less harm

But it still doesn't stop the scumbag from getting into your house and holding a boiling kettle over your head, or worst your kids, looking for the car keys and valuables.

Keeping the f**kers out is the only way to guarantee your families safety. IIRC a dog of any kind is the best deterrent, otherwise you need to secure all doors and any accessible windows.

Victor

Del2005 wrote: »

But it still doesn't stop the scumbag from getting into your house and holding a boiling kettle over your head, or worst your kids, looking for the car keys and valuables.

This is an urban myth.

MagicSean

Victor wrote: »

This is an urban myth.

Actually it isn't. It's just not a common thing but it has been done.

Zambia

MagicSean wrote: »

Actually it isn't. It's just not a common thing but it has been done.

"The belief in a supernatural source of evil is not necessary; men alone are quite capable of every wickedness."
-- Joseph Conrad