Sheep Ireland Lambplus

Arrow in the Knee

Just wondering what people think of Sheep Ireland Lambplus, Malp and CPT programmes?

In my opinion it's better than the old LMI recording a couple of years ago.

Does anybody think there could be more improvements to the Eurostars and will it ever be as good as EBI in dairy and SBV in beef cattle?

All comments welcome

Cran

It's better than the old system, but needs more time and more commercial information. It needs more breeders and someway of gathering more real commercial information. I must join:)

Arrow in the Knee

Yeep agree with that.

It will be interesting when they actual compare breeds against each other where as now its within breed evaluation.

Some of the results they got comparing 5 star to 1 star rams favour the progeny of the 5 star sires!

razor8

id love to see them compare pedigree breeding with say your best ram lamb from a commercial flock that got no feeding

ive kept a few down through the years for using on ewe lambs and found them every bit as good but maybe not as nice to look at

Arrow in the Knee

Depends if your cross bred ram is from a good breeding line in your flock.

Most crossbred flocks don't keep/record ancestry within the flock so he could have been a single, his dam could be wrong in the mouth and then there's the progeny from a cross bred ram that could be hit and miss with consistancy.

rancher

razor8 wrote: »

id love to see them compare pedigree breeding with say your best ram lamb from a commercial flock that got no feeding

ive kept a few down through the years for using on ewe lambs and found them every bit as good but maybe not as nice to look at

Your 'best ram lamb' is likely out of a pedigree ram crossed with ewe also bred by a pedigree ram, where would you go for this genetics if no one supported breeders and they went out of business!!!!!

Arrow in the Knee

Agree with Rancher but I am biased!

In my opinion pedigree breeders don't get enough for the rams they produce!

rancher

Arrow in the Knee wrote: »

Agree with Rancher but I am biased!

In my opinion pedigree breeders don't get enough for the rams they produce!

I also breed pedigree sheep and definitely not for the money, also in lambplus, seems to be working well, but not enough breeders getting involved.

Arrow in the Knee

Yes not enough pedigree breeders in Lambplus but with ICBF behind it now it should be good for commercial farmers and the Eurostars are relatively easy to understand.

If more of the main pedigree breeders in every breed in the country were in Lambplus there would be more genetic improvement and also the breed societies handing over the flock books to Sheep Ireland would greatly improve accuracies also.

razor8

rancher wrote: »

Your 'best ram lamb' is likely out of a pedigree ram crossed with ewe also bred by a pedigree ram, where would you go for this genetics if no one supported breeders and they went out of business!!!!!

but why not compare them, this ram was bred from my own grass, had excellent worm resistance and he was a twin, i keep records of each ewe when they lamb, he had excellant vigour (he was an absolute bugger ro keep with the ewe lambs, he prefered the ewes in the next field) and great conception rates with the ewe lambs

i would love to know if they was a big differnence if these went through the same recording practices

razor8

Arrow in the Knee wrote: »

Depends if your cross bred ram is from a good breeding line in your flock.

Most crossbred flocks don't keep/record ancestry within the flock so he could have been a single, his dam could be wrong in the mouth and then there's the progeny from a cross bred ram that could be hit and miss with consistancy.

yes but again why not keep good records and compare such a ram in tandem with pedigree breeding. ive always purchased from premier sales and always the first one of the year, but im increasingly finding these sheep are pushed far too much

ive been told by a vet because of their diets pre sale there stomachs dont develop/expand correctly and then when left on grass diet only they cant eat enough to fill themselves. im not saying all breeders are doing it to this extreme but its seems for breeders to get the red rossette they have to really push their lambs

Arrow in the Knee

Razor8
They would have to do formula for cross bred sheep and put it on the system which God knows how they'll do it with different genetics in him. eg: Suffolk, Charollais, Belclare and other breeds in him.

They don't even have across breed evaluations so it wouldn't work for you.

Most rams are pushed.

If you get any luck money get some meal for the ram to ease him onto grass which I think buyers should do instead of putting him in a field with poor quality grass and expect him to hold condition or drop a condition score when they know that he has been pushed hard to 'beef him up'.

I have read messages on this forum and the British Farming Forum about over fed rams, unfit, unhealthy yet I rarely see anybody going for the slightly smaller ram, narrow in the head and narrow shoulders but looks bright and active.

If all ram buyers were like contributors to these named forums there would be very few over fed rams at Pedigree Ram Sales in Ireland or the UK but until then the status quo remains.

Also you could pay more for the over fed ram to help the sellers bottom line expenses because creep feed is expensive at the moment!

razor8

Its my belief overfed lambs just hide their conformation failings.

I still think cross bred rams can be recorded, if they were fed in the same conditions as some pedigree sheep im sure they wouldn’t look out of place. you don’t need his ancestry to compare growth rates/fat scores etc

I always feed bought ram lambs over the winter with meal or rolled barley as I know they would just melt in a matter of weeks if I didn’t and also dose them frequently for liver & rumen fluke as well as worms

I just believe the overfeeding is getting worse every year, a bit a meal is one thing but the whole cabbage and cake is one that disappoints/annoys me

rancher

razor8 wrote: »

Its my belief overfed lambs just hide their conformation failings.

I still think cross bred rams can be recorded, if they were fed in the same conditions as some pedigree sheep im sure they wouldn’t look out of place. you don’t need his ancestry to compare growth rates/fat scores etc

I always feed bought ram lambs over the winter with meal or rolled barley as I know they would just melt in a matter of weeks if I didn’t and also dose them frequently for liver & rumen fluke as well as worms

I just believe the overfeeding is getting worse every year, a bit a meal is one thing but the whole cabbage and cake is one that disappoints/annoys me

We supply what the market demands, feeding meal makes rams look their best by maximising their potential, and returns many many times the investment in the meal, also if you have an exceptional one he could get a great price which he wouldn't get if he was not fed meals. Don't agree with feeding cabbage though
On crossbred rams you don't need ancestry to compare growth rates etc in the ram himself, but he has to be bred out of good sheep on both parents sides for many generations to guarantee he passes it on to his progeny and thats what genetics is all about.

Arrow in the Knee

Does anybody thrust Eurostars/EBV's of a ram if accuracy was decent?

Highland

You do need ancestory to be able to compare the rams ability to pass on his abilty to grow fast etc. The difference between just comparing growth rates which are phenotypic (environmental effects such as feeding management etc crossed with genetic effects) effects and trying to get the genetic portion (i.e. that which will be passed on to the offspring) hinges on being able to track ancestories. So if a ram lamb grows very fast but all his relations (particularly if they are also in other flocks) are very poor on growth rate - then the breed evaluation programme will give the ram lamb in question a poor index for growth cause chances are its a freak of nature or it has been recieving better feeding / management / preferntial treatment. The more data you have (i.e. the more ancestory records etc) the more accurate the index will be and the higher the accuracy will be.

Arrow in the Knee

Highland wrote: »

You do need ancestory to be able to compare the rams ability to pass on his abilty to grow fast etc. The difference between just comparing growth rates which are phenotypic (environmental effects such as feeding management etc crossed with genetic effects) effects and trying to get the genetic portion (i.e. that which will be passed on to the offspring) hinges on being able to track ancestories. So if a ram lamb grows very fast but all his relations (particularly if they are also in other flocks) are very poor on growth rate - then the breed evaluation programme will give the ram lamb in question a poor index for growth cause chances are its a freak of nature or it has been recieving better feeding / management / preferntial treatment. The more data you have (i.e. the more ancestory records etc) the more accurate the index will be and the higher the accuracy will be.

Agree with Highland

razor8

Highland wrote: »

You do need ancestory to be able to compare the rams ability to pass on his abilty to grow fast etc. The difference between just comparing growth rates which are phenotypic (environmental effects such as feeding management etc crossed with genetic effects) effects and trying to get the genetic portion (i.e. that which will be passed on to the offspring) hinges on being able to track ancestories. So if a ram lamb grows very fast but all his relations (particularly if they are also in other flocks) are very poor on growth rate - then the breed evaluation programme will give the ram lamb in question a poor index for growth cause chances are its a freak of nature or it has been recieving better feeding / management / preferntial treatment. The more data you have (i.e. the more ancestory records etc) the more accurate the index will be and the higher the accuracy will be.

Ok all sounds good, but do you really believe underperforming rams will be recorded honestly if his results had a detrimental effect on the valve of the ram, I don’t think so

razor8

rancher wrote: »

We supply what the market demands, feeding meal makes rams look their best by maximising their potential, and returns many many times the investment in the meal, also if you have an exceptional one he could get a great price which he wouldn't get if he was not fed meals. Don't agree with feeding cabbage though
On crossbred rams you don't need ancestry to compare growth rates etc in the ram himself, but he has to be bred out of good sheep on both parents sides for many generations to guarantee he passes it on to his progeny and thats what genetics is all about.

Rancher, im not knocking meal feeding at all

as ive said ive tried out one of my own ram breeding as an experiment that worked really well and i think he would be really interesting to feed such a ram in the same conditions as pedigree sheep and compare features like conformation and growth rates even if the cross bred ram was never used to tub ewes.
when i say cross bred i dont mean any old thing, i mean a lamb crossed by a suffolk ewe and ram or texel on texel

Highland

razor8 wrote: »

Ok all sounds good, but do you really believe underperforming rams will be recorded honestly if his results had a detrimental effect on the valve of the ram, I don’t think so

The fact that the animal is not ranked on its own performance, (but on its performance plus that of all its ancestors) means that where there are good linkages with animals in other flocks etc it would be virtually impossible for an underperforming ram to come out with good figures on the basis of dishonest recording by the breeder. So in effect the breeder can't really materially affect the figures unless he can find all ancestors and adjust figures for them upwards.

This is one of the reasons why breeders often give out about performance recording - i.e. they have a great ram or bull that is winning shows left right and centre and has bad figures, yet the will have a whore at home with good figures. - the figures show you the genetic potential, You then need to used you eye, pedigree knowledge etc to fill in the rest of the picture.

Arrow in the Knee

I see that Sheep Ireland are doing Eurostars for Footrot and Worm resistance from 2013 on.

I wonder will there be an breeds that promote worm resistance like the 'Texels' being turned on their head with other breeds being more resistant to worms than previously thought?

In my experience I have kept Suffolks and Texels together and there is no difference between probably the Suffolks are less dirty IMO.

sheeper

How will imported rams get figure or will it be similar to the cattle way of getting them ?

flatout11

Arrow in the Knee wrote: »

I see that Sheep Ireland are doing Eurostars for Footrot and Worm resistance from 2013 on.

I wonder will there be an breeds that promote worm resistance like the 'Texels' being turned on their head with other breeds being more resistant to worms than previously thought?

In my experience I have kept Suffolks and Texels together and there is no difference between probably the Suffolks are less dirty IMO.

how are they planning to do that i would of thought there would of been major differances between and even in farms

Highland

flatout11 wrote: »

how are they planning to do that i would of thought there would of been major differances between and even in farms

It's exactly the same as with meal feeding. It's not the performance of the animal being evaluated that gives it the index but the performance of all its ancestors (some of which are liekly to be in other flocks with different feeding, management, soil types etc). Therefore if a flock has no incidence of footrot or if the flock owner declares that there is no incidence then the evaluation is void and the accuracy will be low or zero. However if offspring of a certain type of ram have a higher incidence than the offspring of other rams in the flock then they have something to work on, build into this the fact that they will also be measuring incidences in half sisters/brothers,uncles/aunts, grandparents plus all their offspring and it just demonstrates that you can really tell lies for very long and get away with it.

Initially the accuracies will be low, but as the information builds so too will the accuracies. The bottom line is when genetic evaluations are BLUP'd and if there is a good linkage within the breed and across farms it is not possible to fudge the figures by feeding incorrect information into the programme. The index is not a reflection of the individual animal but the genetic merit that it will pass to its progeny - therefore it has little to do with how the animal looks or was fed/managed

Arrow in the Knee

Highland wrote: »

it just demonstrates that you can really tell lies for very long and get away with it.

Do you mean the other way round?

Over a period of time BLUP should get the right figure providing data is correct of animals performane put on the system.

Highland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highland
it just demonstrates that you can really tell lies for very long and get away with it.

Do you mean the other way round?

Over a period of time BLUP should get the right figure providing data is correct of animals performane put on the system

Ya - should have proof read before posting - should read can't not can

Arrow in the Knee

yeah i thought so

sheeper

Hmm I wonder how accurate it will be

Wooly Admirer

razor8 wrote: »

id love to see them compare pedigree breeding with say your best ram lamb from a commercial flock that got no feeding

ive kept a few down through the years for using on ewe lambs and found them every bit as good but maybe not as nice to look at

The crossbred rams that you are comparing with purebred rams have one very significant advantage on their side. When two very different animal gene pools are crossed with each other you make use of a genetic effect known as hybrid vigor. This is what is giving your crosbred lamb the extra kick.

Problem is, that this fades more and more every cross away from the purebred animal. Also your crossbred ram will not pass on his hybrid vigor to his lambs, so in a sense he is deceiving you. Better advice would be to find an easy lambing, high maternal rated recorded purebred ram (with as high an accuracy as you can find).

Our ewe lambs should be the best breeding (best genetics) sheep on the farm if you are operating a progressive breeding programme. We need to move away from this idea of putting any ram with ewe lambs just to get a few of them in lamb. Look at the dairy industry. The latest crop of heifers are always better than the last. Dairy men breed them at 15 mths to the highest EBI bulls they can find, to breed even better genetic merit animals. Sheep farmers need to use similar thinking.

Every serious sheep farmer should be identifying their replacement ewe lambs as early as possible in the year and giving them preferential treatment as soon as is practically possible to get them to suitable breeding weight. Some farmers notch ears of twin/trip females. I tag lambs at birth with a management tag and in doing so i can choose twin/trp lambs from my best ewes, and from ewes that lambed in the first 4/6 weeks of my lambing period (my most fertile ewes & this is a trait that i like to retain where possible).

Whether you are breeding ewe lambs or waiting until they are 18 mths to breed, put the best ram you can source with these animals.

Arrow in the Knee

There is no point in buying a tup that isn't up to standard on your ewes.

Every other sector beef,dairy,pigs and poultry use proven genetic sires but the sheep sector is lagging way behind.

At the moment there is no genetic gain.

I have Texels and same applies!

Wooly Admirer

sheeper wrote: »

How will imported rams get figure or will it be similar to the cattle way of getting them ?

At the minute as far as i know the evaluations of imported rams are not being included in the eurostar evaluations. Any imported ram going onto the system comes in at the breed average. As records on the performance of this ram begin to flow into the system then the rams evaluation will alter, moving above or below the breed average, whatever direction his performance records send him.

Most imported rams however have some relations with records in the Irish system ,so most imported rams have some existing records to base some kind of an evaluation on. The quickest way a breeder can build records and accuracies on any ram (imported or not) is to share it with other recording breeders or to get the ram used in a MALP or CPT flock. This is how they will build alot of records on a ram in a short period of time.

From what i've been told, the intention is to link up with signet in the UK to incorporate their figures here and vice versa - not happening yet though!

sheeper

Ok so you could import a ram who has proven himself or has won a major title

And he will start at the bered average ?

Arrow in the Knee

Yes they would be breed average.

With me Texels there is no ancestry so you can't follow a line like Dam, G.Dam, GG.Dam and so on...... On the Lambplus web screen.

I would like it if it was like the basco seach engine for the British texels.

Would Signet be happy giving Sheep Ireland records for rams?

sheeper

Well seeing that majority of breeders are using British blood limes I would Imagen it would be a worth while peice of information

Arrow in the Knee

Does anybody use the eurostar figures for selection purposes?

Wooly Admirer

Arrow in the Knee wrote: »

Yes they would be breed average.

With me Texels there is no ancestry so you can't follow a line like Dam, G.Dam, GG.Dam and so on...... On the Lambplus web screen.

I would like it if it was like the basco seach engine for the British texels.

Would Signet be happy giving Sheep Ireland records for rams?

Sheep Ireland are now the ones maintaining the Texel database and are expected to have an on-line flockbook same as Basco for the society for the coming year. Now that they have all the back ancestry information for the breed the evaluations for Texels will be of far greater quality.

I buy rams using the Euro-stars, but i use the euro-stars as ONE of my selection criteria. It would be madness to buy solely on evaluations at the moment until accuracies grow and more breeders and commercial farmers start recording. Pick your rams as you always would, then use the evaluations to select within that group, this is the msg coming from ICBF also.

Arrow in the Knee

Does anybody know what breed had an animal that had an Overall Eurostar Value of 2 or more?

I read about it last September in the Indo.

Just curious

sheeper

How far down you check list would you put eurostars ? Afte what the ram look like, how he feels, correctness, twin or single, price ?

Arrow in the Knee

Anybody get their lambs musle depth and back fat scanned yet?

Jeess it takes em ages to come out as usual!

sheeper

Nah not yet , dunno if I will be bothering this year

Arrow in the Knee

I would use Eurostars to decide on buying a ram/ewe if there were just say two rams beside each other looking fairly identical to each other and I would then choose the ram that has the better eurostars rating.

sheeper

Dont think I have ever see two identical rams beside each other

Arrow in the Knee

Sheeper

[QUOTE=Arrow in the Knee;79100124fairly identical[/QUOTE]

I'm sure at a Premier Show and Sale out of 150/200 tups there are bound to be a few pretty similar to each other.

sheeper

Funny enough I would agree that there are some similar but when you take feet legs mouth length width head and of course price you are very very rarely left with two similar

Arrow in the Knee

Well price can be variable even if two rams were similar to each other depending on when they enter the sale ring and bidders preferences.

And I don't mean two tups that are 17 inches wide by 50 inches long weighing 95kgs at the same age, they have the same bloom colour trimmed the same mirror images of each other but then maybe your looking at the wrong breed.

Anybody going to Sheep 2012 in Athenry later this month!

sheeper

Totally lost me

rancher

Arrow in the Knee wrote: »

Does anybody know what breed had an animal that had an Overall Eurostar Value of 2 or more?

I read about it last September in the Indo.

Just curious

Odd question...just after reading this, haven't much interest in lambplus discussions but most of the ram lambs we sell are 5 star, yes we're showing in athenry, lambs aren't great this year due to wet weather

Arrow in the Knee

Anybody going to the Eurostar sale in Tullamore this Saturday?

Catalogue on www.sheep.ie website

sheeper

Nah heading to the texels in Roscommon on Sat

rancher

Arrow in the Knee wrote: »

Anybody going to the Eurostar sale in Tullamore this Saturday?

Catalogue on www.sheep.ie website

Yea, bringing three... wasn't a great sale last year, some farmers got great value in rams

Cran

sheeper wrote: »

Nah heading to the texels in Roscommon on Sat

Not this year but have decided to join lambplus so over the next couple of years will be there...