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Decolonisation of Africa: Wind of Change
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Which is akin to taking up the story of a rape victim at the point in which they enter hospital and then blaming them for their wounds/traumaCavehill Red wrote: »Africa's problems are not all evil whitey's fault. Africa's problems today are the result of the most recent five or six decades - a period marked by independence, rule of gangsters, famine, civil and international wars, and a marked collapse in living standards across the continent
Africa's post-independence plight cannot be divorced from decades of colonial rule. Had the continent been governed fairly and been left with robust state/democratic structures then this might be different. But it wasn't. The European empires conquered and grossly misruled Africa for decades, before leaving it in either indecent haste or a flurry of bullets. They are directly responsible for putting in place the conditions that have produced so much misery since
All societies are products of the conditions that birth them. African states today are merely applying the principles and methods of governance that they were taught by their former masters. There is very little that Africans have done to themselves in the past half century (from autocracy, corruption, war and ethnic strife, etc) that was not part of the standard European template for colonial rule
If you were African you'd know who'd already been to town and the mess that they'd left. You'd also know of the previous half century of neo-colonialism: unequal trading arrangements, coups and influence peddling, arms trading, client states, etc, etc. It is quite bizarre to suggest that Europe has cleaner hands than China when the former has been exploiting Africa for over a century nowNevertheless, in a globalised world, no continent can be cut off. Africa will be influenced for good or ill. Unlike the Chinese, Europe at least has offered Africa goodwill, hundreds of billions if not trillions in aid, and accommodated millions of its refugees. If I were African, I know who I'd rather see coming into town.
You try telling people in Algeria or Kenya or the Congo or Nigeria or Namibia or Egypt or Sudan or wherever about the benevolence of Europeans0 -
Quick question before we proceed further, RW.
How many times have you visited Africa, and where in Africa have you been?0 -
Never been. I'm not going to ask you the same question because I believe it to be entirely irrelevant to a discussion on history0
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Never been. I'm not going to ask you the same question because I believe it to be entirely irrelevant to a discussion on history
On the contrary, if you're going to attribute opinions to Africans it is relevant to know what your exposure to Africa actually is.
I've visited 14 different African countries on over 20 visits extended over a 2 decade period. Some countries, like Zimbabwe, South Africa or Egypt I've visited multiple times. In countries like Ethiopia I've personally witnessed the encroachment of Chinese interests and the reaction of the local populace. I can assure you that the African sentiment is almost universally negative towards this development (except among government circles), and in many postcolonial states, such as Zimbabwe, Zambia, Senegal, etc, there is huge nostalgia for colonial periods, and among younger Africans both an aspiration to live in Europe and a desire to see greater European involvement in their countries.0 -
The aspiration of most African youth would seem to me to be more about money than a wish for colonial rule. i.e. the fondness for western influences is due to the wish for money and things that are not reachable. It could be also extrapulated that this desire amongst ordinary people is reflected in some of the manic spending patterns of some of the leaders.Cavehill Red wrote: »On the contrary, if you're going to attribute opinions to Africans it is relevant to know what your exposure to Africa actually is.
I've visited 14 different African countries on over 20 visits extended over a 2 decade period. Some countries, like Zimbabwe, South Africa or Egypt I've visited multiple times. In countries like Ethiopia I've personally witnessed the encroachment of Chinese interests and the reaction of the local populace. I can assure you that the African sentiment is almost universally negative towards this development (except among government circles), and in many postcolonial states, such as Zimbabwe, Zambia, Senegal, etc, there is huge nostalgia for colonial periods, and among younger Africans both an aspiration to live in Europe and a desire to see greater European involvement in their countries.
In terms of us talking about the history of how colonial rule ended and the subsequent period I don't think it is necessary to have first hand experience of the countries although any relevant accounts would be fascinating. The reaction to Chinese interest is something that you should expand on.0 -
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And who said that I've not been speaking to Africans?Cavehill Red wrote: »On the contrary, if you're going to attribute opinions to Africans it is relevant to know what your exposure to Africa actually is
Out of curiosity, what capacity did you visit Africa in?I've visited 14 different African countries on over 20 visits extended over a 2 decade period. Some countries, like Zimbabwe, South Africa or Egypt I've visited multiple times. In countries like Ethiopia I've personally witnessed the encroachment of Chinese interests and the reaction of the local populace. I can assure you that the African sentiment is almost universally negative towards this development (except among government circles), and in many postcolonial states, such as Zimbabwe, Zambia, Senegal, etc, there is huge nostalgia for colonial periods, and among younger Africans both an aspiration to live in Europe and a desire to see greater European involvement in their countries.
I'd also be curious to know just what the continent was like a century ago. How did you find those colonial administrations when you jumped in your time machine? It must have been fascinating to witness the dismantlement of empire. Reading about a topic clearly being no longer sufficient to pass comment of course
As for the Chinese, I'll start to get excited when they start bombing villages into submission, interning civilian populations in concentration camps or driving populations to die in the desert0 -
jonniebgood1 wrote: »The aspiration of most African youth would seem to me to be more about money than a wish for colonial rule. i.e. the fondness for western influences is due to the wish for money and things that are not reachable. It could be also extrapulated that this desire amongst ordinary people is reflected in some of the manic spending patterns of some of the leaders.
Kleptomania among oligarchs is nothing new and hardly restricted to either Africa nor those influenced by the West. Consider Russia, Ferdinand Marcos, even the Roman Emperors.
Given the tremendous poverty and difficulty of life for so many Africans, of course a desire to transcend those grinding realities proliferates. The ubiquitous spread of Western culture also is influential, but less so than in many other parts of the world. In Ethiopia, one might go weeks without ever hearing non-indigenous music or seeing non-indigenous entertainment. It's somewhat similar in parts of West Africa, where often the influence is more Caribbean (reggae, etc) than it is Western in the European/North American sense.
I've noticed in many parts of Southern Africa (Swazi, Zim, Zam, Moz, parts of SA) a genuine nostalgia for either the colonial period or white rule periods, based primarily on a regret that infrastructure, employment opportunities and living standards have fallen so drastically. This is not to be confused with a desire to be re-colonised; people the world over desire to be free. However, I've encountered, and not just among the older generations, a widespread sentiment that independence/black rule was often rushed, and has had negative consequences. "We just wanted to be equal with the whites. We did not want them to leave and have the gangsters and Marxists take over," one Mozambican memorably told me once.jonniebgood1 wrote: »In terms of us talking about the history of how colonial rule ended and the subsequent period I don't think it is necessary to have first hand experience of the countries although any relevant accounts would be fascinating. The reaction to Chinese interest is something that you should expand on.
I would largely concur that one need not have had direct exposure to Africa to discuss it. However, I am reading some posts here (not yours, I hasten to add) which attribute opinions to Africans that frankly don't tally with my fairly extensive experience of visiting the continent.
As for China, Ethiopia is a good case study. There has been some excellent reportage on the issue by the BBC in recent years but it generally goes uncovered. Thousands of farmers have been driven off their lands by the state so that Chinese enterprises (and Saudi ones too, even Egyptian ones now) can take over the land in massive farms. Often, even the infrastructural work is carried out by imported Chinese workers, to the chagrin of those stripped of their land and rendered unemployed. Produce and profits are all exported, and the entities enjoy tax breaks (allegedly obtained in return for kickbacks to the political class railroading these developments through.)
The resentment is profound, and not limited to the rural areas affected. In Lalibela, a restauranteur was delighted to hear I was Irish, because apparently Irish tourism people have been going there for the past few years offering advice on building up their tourism infrastructure, which he compared favourably to the Chinese intervention. On the one hand, the Irish were seen as interested in helping and being genuinely invested in the locals, while the Chinese were seen by contrast as "locusts stealing food from our people."0 -
That is possibly more than 'allegedly' particularly when one looks at the real estate - particularly in Paris - acquired by African leaders.Cavehill Red wrote: ».......... and the entities enjoy tax breaks (allegedly obtained in return for kickbacks to the political class railroading these developments through.)
Any Irish person is invariably welcomed in African countries – with the exception of a few coastal regions in W. Africa, due to the activity of Irish-registered supertrawlers. A senior government (African) official once said to me, ‘The Irish came with schoolbooks and rosaries, the British with revolvers on their hips.’ Apart from the private sector, even at a semi-State level Aer Lingus, the ESB, Bord na Mona, etc, have done development work in many African countries. Mugabe was educated by the Jesuits and the Irish connection helped O’Reilly /Heinz set up in Zimbabwe. Nigeria is Guinness’ second biggest market.Cavehill Red wrote: »The resentment is profound, and not limited to the rural areas affected. In Lalibela, a restauranteur was delighted to hear I was Irish, because apparently Irish tourism people have been going there for the past few years offering advice on building up their tourism infrastructure, which he compared favourably to the Chinese intervention. On the one hand, the Irish were seen as interested in helping and being genuinely invested in the locals, while the Chinese were seen by contrast as "locusts stealing food from our people."
Maybe Jimmy Rabbitte in the Commitments was on to something when he said ‘Do you not get it, lads? The Irish are the blacks of Europe. And Dubliners are the blacks of Ireland. And the Northside Dubliners are the blacks of Dublin.’
I know it is a generalization, but having worked in several African and E European countries, I have come to a belief that the social and work ethics are very different in Africa. An African feels duty bound to his family/tribe and will employ a nephew/niece for life, regardless of performance. In E Europe, a businessman will give a relative a break, but will quickly fire if performance is not forthcoming.
As for corruption, well, TAB.0 -
And Stalin is today the second most popular Russian leader in history (despite not actually being Russian). Does that mean that Russians crave crushing autocracy, crashing living standards and mass famine? Of course not. Nostalgia tells us far more about people today than it does conditions several decades ago. It's also pretty irrelevant... unless you've been interviewing people who lived through the colonial period, of courseCavehill Red wrote: »I've noticed in many parts of Southern Africa (Swazi, Zim, Zam, Moz, parts of SA) a genuine nostalgia for either the colonial period or white rule periods, based primarily on a regret that infrastructure, employment opportunities and living standards have fallen so drastically. This is not to be confused with a desire to be re-colonised; people the world over desire to be free
Completely unlike US and European companies, no? I mean you'd never find the likes of Firestone making use of child labour while using kickbacks to avoid taxes in Liberia. Or see Washington heavily sponsoring Mobutu Sese Seko in Zaire in order to obtain favourable mineral concessions. And this isn't even touching on the likes of the Nestle scandal or colonial-era land seizures. But then I read about these in books, so what do I know?As for China, Ethiopia is a good case study. There has been some excellent reportage on the issue by the BBC in recent years but it generally goes uncovered. Thousands of farmers have been driven off their lands by the state so that Chinese enterprises (and Saudi ones too, even Egyptian ones now) can take over the land in massive farms. Often, even the infrastructural work is carried out by imported Chinese workers, to the chagrin of those stripped of their land and rendered unemployed. Produce and profits are all exported, and the entities enjoy tax breaks (allegedly obtained in return for kickbacks to the political class railroading these developments through
And again, in what capacity did you travel across Africa? Sounds like a fantastic experience but I'd be interested in knowing whether it was work related0 -
And Stalin is today the second most popular Russian leader in history (despite not actually being Russian). Does that mean that Russians crave crushing autocracy, crashing living standards and mass famine? Of course not. Nostalgia tells us far more about people today than it does conditions several decades ago. It's also pretty irrelevant... unless you've been interviewing people who lived through the colonial period, of course
In Moz, the colonial period ended in the mid-Seventies. In Zim and obviously SA, the white rule period ended even later. No so difficult to find people who recall those times.Completely unlike US and European companies, no? I mean you'd never find the likes of Firestone making use of child labour while using kickbacks to avoid taxes in Liberia. Or see Washington heavily sponsoring Mobutu Sese Seko in Zaire in order to obtain favourable mineral concessions. And this isn't even touching on the likes of the Nestle scandal or colonial-era land seizures. But then I read about these in books, so what do I know?
Your average African is much more likely to have encountered US Aid parcels than Washington political sponsorship. This likely skews their view of the West also.And again, in what capacity did you travel across Africa? Sounds like a fantastic experience but I'd be interested in knowing whether it was work related
I've been for work, for holidays and in a personal capacity.0 -
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And both the GDR and USSR collapsed in the late 1980s. Yet in Germany and Russia you will find people who are strongly nostalgic for the Communist states. Nobody seriously wants to return to those days though: this rose-tinted view of the past is just an expression of dissatisfaction with today's climate rather than a serious desire to enslave themselves againCavehill Red wrote: »In Moz, the colonial period ended in the mid-Seventies. In Zim and obviously SA, the white rule period ended even later. No so difficult to find people who recall those times
BTW how many blacks in SA and Zim are eager to return to apartheid states?
So your problem with the Chinese isn't so much the exploitation but the lack of charity gestures to accompany it?Your average African is much more likely to have encountered US Aid parcels than Washington political sponsorship. This likely skews their view of the West also
To be honest, I'm not going to get into a debate as to how Western charity aid is at best a sticking plaster and at worst hindering development; but I will point out the nonsensical scenario of countless Westerners giving €5 a month while Western governments and companies consistently screw over continent through political interference, economic exploitation and deeply unfair trading arrangements. One can't help but have a sneaking, and somewhat perverse, admiration for the Chinese in not bothering with the hypocrisy
It is, as you may have guessed, the work that interests me. You mind if I ask what sector/industry you were employed in in Africa?I've been for work, for holidays and in a personal capacity.0 -
And both the GDR and USSR collapsed in the late 1980s. Yet in Germany and Russia you will find people who are strongly nostalgic for the Communist states. Nobody seriously wants to return to those days though: this rose-tinted view of the past is just an expression of dissatisfaction with today's climate rather than a serious desire to enslave themselves again
Again, how do you know this? How can you assert with any credibility what the Russian people want? It's perfectly arguable that, in the case of Russia, the desire to support Putin, the cult of personality that surrounds him and the increasing autocracy of the Russian state IS a return to Soviet values.BTW how many blacks in SA and Zim are eager to return to apartheid states?
Who knows? No one's asked them.So your problem with the Chinese isn't so much the exploitation but the lack of charity gestures to accompany it?
MY problem with China is their incursion into sovereign Tibet and their human rights violations. AFRICAN problems with China revolve again around human rights abuses and their taking of land from indigenous farmers.To be honest, I'm not going to get into a debate as to how Western charity aid is at best a sticking plaster and at worst hindering development; but I will point out the nonsensical scenario of countless Westerners giving €5 a month while Western governments and companies consistently screw over continent through political interference, economic exploitation and deeply unfair trading arrangements. One can't help but have a sneaking, and somewhat perverse, admiration for the Chinese in not bothering with the hypocrisy
OK, we're closing in on something here. It's becoming evident that you simply have a doctrinaire hatred of the West in the context of Africa. That doesn't tally with either reality nor with African sentiments as I've experienced them.It is, as you may have guessed, the work that interests me. You mind if I ask what sector/industry you were employed in in Africa?
Yes, I do mind. None of your business.0 -
Because there was a vote on it. (Although correction: he came third in that one). It's not the only such poll in which Stalin or the USSR rate highly, I'll link to more if you're really interested. With regards Germany, it's a pretty well documented attitude. They even have a word for that sort of nostalgia: OstalgieCavehill Red wrote: »Again, how do you know this? How can you assert with any credibility what the Russian people want?
(Gosh, isn't it amazing what you can learn from reading things and talking to ex-pats? It's almost possible to talk about a subject without having criss-crossed a continent first)
The point of all this being that nostalgia says nothing about what actually happened in the past
Yeah, I'm not going into that sort of discussion. The idea that Russians somehow desire repression and a strong autocratic ruler is borderline racistIt's perfectly arguable that, in the case of Russia, the desire to support Putin, the cult of personality that surrounds him and the increasing autocracy of the Russian state IS a return to Soviet values
So are people in Zimbabwe or South Africa not nostalgic for colonialism? If so, why did you bring them up?Who knows? No one's asked them.
As it is of course these are two cases where a huge chunk of the population do remember what white rule was actually like and must have clear (untainted) memories of just what that entailed. Now I've not asked the question and you've not asked the question but it's pretty easy to predict how black South Africans would react to a proposed return to colonial norms
I just want to note the irony of slating Chinese actions in Tibet in a thread about European colonialism while arguing that the West should re-colonise AfricaMY problem with China is their incursion into sovereign Tibet and their human rights violations. AFRICAN problems with China revolve again around human rights abuses and their taking of land from indigenous farmers.
But again you have avoided my point. You contrast Western and Chinese approaches while ignoring all that is unsavoury, exploitative and unacceptable about the former. This is disingenuous at best. The way you tell it you'd think that the Chinese were the only ones staging mass evictions in East Africa
I'm not sure that makes sense but we'll roll with it. My "hatred of the West in the context of Africa" has nothing to do with doctrine and isn't even hatred. I've got no idea where you pulled either of those fromOK, we're closing in on something here. It's becoming evident that you simply have a doctrinaire hatred of the West in the context of Africa. That doesn't tally with either reality nor with African sentiments as I've experienced them.
What should be blindly evident from all of this is that I believe that:
1) European conquest of Africa was disastrous for the latter. Colonial rule across the continent was typified by mis-rule, racism and repression
2) Decades of poor governance was compounded by the swift exit of the empires. This left immense challenges to the post-independence African governments
3) In the half century since decolonisation Western governments have acted in such a way that is contrary to Africa's interests. We could go through the roll call of sponsored coups, tot up the vast numbers of armaments sold, delve into the unequal trade arrangements, explore some case studies of pretty shady corporate practices, etc, etc
4) Western NGO aid to Africa has spectacularly failed to drive any real improvements in the continents economic development. It's not an original observation; here James Shikwati argues the case
5) I don't particularly like the idea of the Chinese joining in on these fun and games but I do find the idea that they are any worse than all of the above to be pretty untenable. The idea that we should re-colonise Africa to save it from Beijing is laughable
Is that a doctrine? Nope. Each step has been informed by my reading over the years. None of this, with the exception of point 4, should be in any way controversial. Nor does it really amount to hatred; cynicism of Western motives, yes, but hardly hate. Call it an informed pessimism. I'll take that over a hopelessly biased or one-eyed approach any day
*Shrugs* Fair enough. I'm going to continue with my assumption then that you were/are working for either a NGO charity or a Western multinational. Probably the latter. It would explain your hostility to the Chinese (read: the competition) as well as your unwillingness to face the West's track record of exploitation in AfricaYes, I do mind. None of your business.0 -
I went to Zambia in 1968 as part of the Zambianisation programme. I would be the first to admit that as a young woman (21) with very limited political interest or information I can only comment on what I saw, rather than the political implications.
Thousands of people were sent from the UK and also Ireland by the British Government to take up jobs for which there were no trained local people. They were paid a local wage, but the British Government also paid an amount which brought the wage up to a UK equivalent, this money stayed in the UK until the contract was finished. They were two year contracts which were only renewed if the Zambian government felt the need was still there. I was a stenographer with four years work experience. Most of the people who were there would have been teachers and health workers.
Subsequently I lived in Kenya under similar circumstances.
I was only there for around 4 -5 years, people I know who stayed the longest were phased out in the late 70s. One woman, a friend of mine, who stayed till the end is still in contact with ex-pupils and was invited to go to Kenya last year when several ex-pupils took turns to accommodate her and give her a wonderful holiday all over Kenya.
I was living there only a few years after independence and in Kenya, in an area where the Mau Mau had been active. I never felt any threat or even serious resentment. I am not saying there was no resentment, just that it was never obvious to me. I worked with and for black Africans for whom I had the greatest respect, but also some who were only interested in what they could do for themselves. Sounds familiar!
The general attitude of Europeans on these contracts was to treat local people as they would have dealt with people at home. There was no particular racism in either direction. Of course you would get the occasional loudmouthed white who would hold forth (privately) about the unreliability (mostly) of the Africans, but there was little patience with that kind of attitude and they did not get support. In the same way you would occasionally get an aggressive - intellectually, not physically - African, but they were rare. Usually a school Principal would be black, with teachers of all nationalities, the local black teachers gradually taking over as they qualified.
At the time I was there it seemed as though the countries would make their way in the world, evidently this sense of progress was false. I do know that at that time they were both amazing places to live.
None of what I have said gives any definitive information about Africa at that time. You would have to take into account my naivety and lack of political education. Nonetheless it offers a sense of what it was like to be there at a time of great change.0 -
Because there was a vote on it. (Although correction: he came third in that one). It's not the only such poll in which Stalin or the USSR rate highly, I'll link to more if you're really interested. With regards Germany, it's a pretty well documented attitude. They even have a word for that sort of nostalgia: Ostalgie
You've misunderstood my point. I didn't dispute Stalin has been subject to a surge in popularity. I asked how you can state with any authority that such a surge is not indicative of a yearning for Soviet times.Gosh, isn't it amazing what you can learn from reading things and talking to ex-pats? It's almost possible to talk about a subject without having criss-crossed a continent first)
The point of all this being that nostalgia says nothing about what actually happened in the past
Breathtakingly nonsensical. Nostalgia is defined as a yearning for the past. Furthermore, it's disputable whether nostalgia is the only element of Russian desire for autocracy.Yeah, I'm not going into that sort of discussion. The idea that Russians somehow desire repression and a strong autocratic ruler is borderline racist
Catch a grip, will you.So are people in Zimbabwe or South Africa not nostalgic for colonialism? If so, why did you bring them up?
Many in my experience are. You asked how many, and I pointed out there has been no formal assessment of that, ever.As it is of course these are two cases where a huge chunk of the population do remember what white rule was actually like and must have clear (untainted) memories of just what that entailed. Now I've not asked the question and you've not asked the question but it's pretty easy to predict how black South Africans would react to a proposed return to colonial norms
It depends what you mean by 'colonial norms'. SA was not a colony in the way most other African countries were. It was ruled by an indigenous minority. Would South Africans wish to be ruled by foreign nationals? Clearly not, neither under black nor white rule, since they strongly resisted foreign influence and developed strong self-sufficiency during the apartheid era. This is not the same as saying that many South Africans have not suffered as a result of majority rule, and that some regret how that proceeded.I just want to note the irony of slating Chinese actions in Tibet in a thread about European colonialism while arguing that the West should re-colonise Africa
No irony at all. China has no business being in sovereign Tibet. However, having not only created the seeds of many current African problems but in many cases having created the very nations themselves, Europe very definitely has a moral and historical reason for engagement with Africa. The form that engagement should take is debatable. I'm entirely aware that my proposal of recolonisation is controversial. It is intended to spark debate. It is unlikely to be put into practice, despite the fact that in many ways it is already happening (Chinese, UN involvement) and the fact that in many cases it is desirable (Liberia, Sierra Leone, Chad, etc.)But again you have avoided my point. You contrast Western and Chinese approaches while ignoring all that is unsavoury, exploitative and unacceptable about the former. This is disingenuous at best. The way you tell it you'd think that the Chinese were the only ones staging mass evictions in East Africa
Certainly not. I highlighted the Chinese to make the point that recolonisation is already happening. If we want to talk about selective reasoning and land clearances, I note you make no mention of white farmers being hounded off their land in Zim, SA and Moz.I'm not sure that makes sense but we'll roll with it. My "hatred of the West in the context of Africa" has nothing to do with doctrine and isn't even hatred. I've got no idea where you pulled either of those from
It's the entire thrust of your argument, such as it is.What should be blindly evident from all of this is that I believe that:
1) European conquest of Africa was disastrous for the latter. Colonial rule across the continent was typified by mis-rule, racism and repression
2) Decades of poor governance was compounded by the swift exit of the empires. This left immense challenges to the post-independence African governments
3) In the half century since decolonisation Western governments have acted in such a way that is contrary to Africa's interests. We could go through the roll call of sponsored coups, tot up the vast numbers of armaments sold, delve into the unequal trade arrangements, explore some case studies of pretty shady corporate practices, etc, etc
4) Western NGO aid to Africa has spectacularly failed to drive any real improvements in the continents economic development. It's not an original observation; here James Shikwati argues the case
5) I don't particularly like the idea of the Chinese joining in on these fun and games but I do find the idea that they are any worse than all of the above to be pretty untenable. The idea that we should re-colonise Africa to save it from Beijing is laughable
I largely disagree with all of your points, with the exception of no. 4.Is that a doctrine? Nope. Each step has been informed by my reading over the years. None of this, with the exception of point 4, should be in any way controversial. Nor does it really amount to hatred; cynicism of Western motives, yes, but hardly hate. Call it an informed pessimism. I'll take that over a hopelessly biased or one-eyed approach any day
Hilarious. Your opinions expressed are both hopelessly biased (against historical and current Western involvement in Africa) and one-eyed (in how you contrast that involvement with current Chinese involvement.)*Shrugs* Fair enough. I'm going to continue with my assumption then that you were/are working for either a NGO charity or a Western multinational. Probably the latter. It would explain your hostility to the Chinese (read: the competition) as well as your unwillingness to face the West's track record of exploitation in Africa
And you're wrong in that assumption, just as you're wrong about most of your assumptions about Africa. You really should visit the continent. It might open your eyes somewhat.0 -
Interesting article and even more interesting discussion about Portuguese 'recolonisation' in Moz on the Beeb.0
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You mean why do Russians not want to recreate a system that they were so eager to dismantle two decades ago? Leaving aside the obvious (ie, it's rare in the extreme for a population to renounce democratic freedoms that it has fought for) one obvious indicator would be the continual failure of the CPRF to capture office via the ballot box. But really, in this case common sense should prevailCavehill Red wrote: »You've misunderstood my point. I didn't dispute Stalin has been subject to a surge in popularity. I asked how you can state with any authority that such a surge is not indicative of a yearning for Soviet times
As I say, I'm not even going to entertain your notion that Russians inherently crave the whip. It's an argument built solely on stereotypes and ignoranceBreathtakingly nonsensical. Nostalgia is defined as a yearning for the past. Furthermore, it's disputable whether nostalgia is the only element of Russian desire for autocracy
But as for nostalgia, I'm afraid that you don't get to write the definitions. A key component of nostalgia is the idealisation of the past. It evokes only happy memories; you can't, by definition, be nostalgic for an unhappy period. In our context, anyone who is nostalgic for a former society/state is focused on the positives while, often unconsciously, ignoring or downplaying the negatives. This is particularly true when people have never directly experienced the previous 'golden age'
Now you're being obtuse and ignoring context. If it makes you happier then I'll rephrase: 'Roughly how many black South Africans or Zimbabweans that you have spoken to are eager for a return to apartheid states?'Many in my experience are. You asked how many, and I pointed out there has been no formal assessment of that, ever.
And explicitly racist practices and laws were common to both 'white ruled' colonies and those governed directly from London. Racism was inherent in the colonial project. So I repeat: do you think that many black South Africans would support a state that systematically discriminates against them?It depends what you mean by 'colonial norms'. SA was not a colony in the way most other African countries were. It was ruled by an indigenous minority
And here we return to the central absurdity: "Europe's historical reason for engagement with Africa" is predominately one of conquest, mismanagement and exploitation... therefore Europe has reason for continued meddling in African affairs (up to open recolonisation). Really? What possible moral right does Europe have to interfere in Africa?However, having not only created the seeds of many current African problems but in many cases having created the very nations themselves, Europe very definitely has a moral and historical reason for engagement with Africa
Some call it neo-colonialism. And it's been happening for some several decades now. The Chinese are actually quite late in the game. Again, I fail to see the difference between what China is doing and what the West's track record over the past half a century. Can you distinguish between the two?Certainly not. I highlighted the Chinese to make the point that recolonisation is already happening.
Relevance, please? Is this an example of re-colonisation? Is this being driven by foreign firms?If we want to talk about selective reasoning and land clearances, I note you make no mention of white farmers being hounded off their land in Zim, SA and Moz.
It's tough to take accusations of bias from someone who refuses to accept the scale of the damage wrought by the European empires on Africa, while maintaining some ingrained notions of Western European superiority over a whole list of peoples - Africans, the Russians and the Chinese. I can see that touring Africa has really opened your mindHilarious. Your opinions expressed are both hopelessly biased (against historical and current Western involvement in Africa) and one-eyed (in how you contrast that involvement with current Chinese involvement.)
Unfortunately it's not done much to address many of the points I've raised over the past several posts. We haven't really progressed since post #32 and, given the resort to personal insults, are unlikely to do so in future0 -
You mean why do Russians not want to recreate a system that they were so eager to dismantle two decades ago? Leaving aside the obvious (ie, it's rare in the extreme for a population to renounce democratic freedoms that it has fought for) one obvious indicator would be the continual failure of the CPRF to capture office via the ballot box. But really, in this case common sense should prevail
No, again that's not what I said or meant. It's entirely arguable, as I've already stated, to posit that Putin's regime represents a return to Soviet values (hurtling towards a one-party state under an autocratic leader.) That it isn't the CPRF is irrelevant.As I say, I'm not even going to entertain your notion that Russians inherently crave the whip. It's an argument built solely on stereotypes and ignorance
Anything but. I lived in Belarus during its first year of independence, and have visited Russia many times. Again, may I ask, how often have you been?But as for nostalgia, I'm afraid that you don't get to write the definitions. A key component of nostalgia is the idealisation of the past. It evokes only happy memories; you can't, by definition, be nostalgic for an unhappy period. In our context, anyone who is nostalgic for a former society/state is focused on the positives while, often unconsciously, ignoring or downplaying the negatives. This is particularly true when people have never directly experienced the previous 'golden age'
Here's a dictionary definition, then:
nos·tal·gia
[no-stal-juh, -jee-uh, nuh-] Show IPA
noun
1.
a wistful desire to return in thought or in fact to a former time in one's life, to one's home or homeland, or to one's family and friends; a sentimental yearning for the happiness of a former place or time: a nostalgia for his college days.
2.
something that elicits or displays nostalgia.
I don't see how that's notably different from what I wrote.Now you're being obtuse and ignoring context. If it makes you happier then I'll rephrase: 'Roughly how many black South Africans or Zimbabweans that you have spoken to are eager for a return to apartheid states?'
Many from both countries have overtly told me that things were much better for them personally under the former regimes, especially in Zim. In SA, in the Eastern Cape and Limpopo especially, I've heard this baldly stated by black South Africans. There is widespread disillusionment with how ANC rule has panned out in those regions. As for Zim, I've not heard anyone who wasn't a signed up Zanu member say anything else, but then again people there are quite circumspect unless they know and trust who they're talking to.And explicitly racist practices and laws were common to both 'white ruled' colonies and those governed directly from London. Racism was inherent in the colonial project. So I repeat: do you think that many black South Africans would support a state that systematically discriminates against them?
That's not the issue - the issue is that they felt they had better lives under those regimes, not that they wish them to return. What they want is for majority rule to work, but it hasn't.And here we return to the central absurdity: "Europe's historical reason for engagement with Africa" is predominately one of conquest, mismanagement and exploitation... therefore Europe has reason for continued meddling in African affairs (up to open recolonisation). Really? What possible moral right does Europe have to interfere in Africa?
The moral imperative to fix wrongs it created.Some call it neo-colonialism. And it's been happening for some several decades now. The Chinese are actually quite late in the game. Again, I fail to see the difference between what China is doing and what the West's track record over the past half a century. Can you distinguish between the two?
What do you believe the West's 'track record over the past half a century' is, exactly? Trillions in aid? The assistance provided by Europeans, including the poster on this thread who went to work in Zambia? Or do you just have more one-eyed evil whitey nonsense to propagate? How many Chinese aid agencies operate in Africa? How much aid has China provided to Africa?Relevance, please? Is this an example of re-colonisation? Is this being driven by foreign firms?
It's a sign of indigenous mismanagement, racism by Africans to other Africans, and the failure of African rulers. But those facts don't tally with your evil whitey theorem. It wasn't Europeans who took white farms in Zim and turned them into derelict scrub. The collapse of countries like Zim (or DRC, or, etc, etc) was not the fault of Europeans but of local leadership.It's tough to take accusations of bias from someone who refuses to accept the scale of the damage wrought by the European empires on Africa, while maintaining some ingrained notions of Western European superiority over a whole list of peoples - Africans, the Russians and the Chinese. I can see that touring Africa has really opened your mind
I don't accept your scale of damage (nor your accusation of racism, which I've now reported.) You have repeatedly failed to address the FACT that Europeans left significant infrastructure and economic stability in Africa which has been destroyed by the kleptomania of indigenous leaders. Life expectancies and quality of life has fallen drastically under AFRICAN rulers, having risen under imperial rule. It's worth comparing African postcolonial experience with those of other colonised nations in other parts of the world in this regard. Despite suffering an appalling genocide only a few decades ago, living standards and life expectancy in places like Cambodia are much higher than in most of Africa. Infrastructure in places like Vietnam are much better preserved and intact and significantly superior to what has happened to railways, roads and ports in most of Africa. You can't blame evil whitey for this. The comparative experiences of postcolonial rule in other parts of the world have built on what Europe left behind in a much more successful fashion than Africa has.Unfortunately it's not done much to address many of the points I've raised over the past several posts. We haven't really progressed since post #32 and, given the resort to personal insults, are unlikely to do so in future
I don't know what you expect by progression? I don't accept your basic premise, and I find the opinions you attribute to Africans don't tally with my own fairly extensive experience of going to Africa and speaking with the locals. Nevertheless, this is a discussion and I'm explaining my perspective and analysis based on that experience. In return, you seem stuck with a single unproven thesis that all wrong in Africa results from an Imperial experience which largely ended in the continent from 35 to 70 years ago. You cannot (and have not been able to) argue successfully that somehow the mismanagement of Africa is the fault of those who were no longer in charge and not the fault of those who were, especially when correlative experiences of postcolonial nations on other continents is so demonstrably better.0 -
It's tough to take accusations of bias from someone who refuses to accept the scale of the damage wrought by the European empires on Africa, while maintaining some ingrained notions of Western European superiority over a whole list of peoples - Africans, the Russians and the Chinese. I can see that touring Africa has really opened your mindCavehill Red wrote: »I don't accept your scale of damage (nor your accusation of racism, which I've now reported.)
I have followed your discussion folks and you have both robustly argued your points. Any accusation above (whether perceived or real) is slight and open to interpretation given the context of the views expressed. You both argue well when sticking to the subject rather than commenting on each others bias so stick to topic and we will be all happy. Africa is a subject that I find interesting and I have enjoyed your debate.
Any problems with this should be sent by PM either to each other or to me rather than posted in thread.
Thanks
Moderator.0 -
Personally I prefer to listen to people who have lived and/or worked in Africa as their experience is real, not academic. I cannot see the point of laying the blame of present day problems in Africa on past colonial powers, which is rather like the Irish blaming the Brits for our present IMF predicament.
Much of Africa’s problem has been created post independence by its own people – Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Cote d’Ivoire, Senegal are typical examples of countries that were left with viable economies and now are basket cases.
Nobody has yet meaningfully mentioned the role of economics in post-colonial ‘Africa’ (which I take to be Sub-Sahara, rather than the whole continent). Many African economies are totally dependent on one or two commodities – e.g. minerals, oil, agriculture, - the prices of which are very volatile; many national infrastructure systems are also based on bringing those commodities to market, not moving people around. Example – copper / Zambia.
Nobody has spoken of the effect of civil disobedience / school boycotts on the education of young (black) South Africans – to my mind a serious defect by the ANC. Nobody has commented on the positives/negatives of ‘affirmative action’ in the labour force.
“We spoke and acted as if, given the opportunity for self-government, we would quickly create utopias. Instead injustice, even tyranny, is rampant."
Julius Kambarage Nyerere, as quoted in David Lamb's The Africans, New York 1985.0 -
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