French spoken in Ireland??

MarchDub

The 'non success' of these laws is not in dispute. Which is why the Tudors in later times had to get serious and spend some money with arms to try and finally conquer Ireland, both in the material sense of land and in the cultural sense of laws and custom.

Bannasidhe

CDfm wrote: »

Don't blame me.

If Bannasidhe said it , it must be right.

It must? Oh, bless you:D - could you tell my family that?

Ummm---what did I say that must be right? I may take a screen shot and carry it around with me a proof of my correctness .

CDfm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ummm---what did I say that must be right? I may take a screen shot and carry it around with me a proof of my correctness .

Oh how about the McMurroughs became Norman.

CDfm

Anyway, I have found out a little about Pembrokeshire which may explain in part about the Yola people

Late in the fourth century an Irish tribe, the Deisi, from Co. Meath in Ireland, migrated to Pembrokeshire under their leader, Eochaid Allmuir, and established a royal dynasty that was to rule in south-west Wales for some five centuries. They provided the first written records in the form of inscribed stones bearing the names of those who were considered worthy of commemoration. The writing was in Latin or in ogham, an Irish alphabet designed for ease of cutting on the edge of a stone pillar. Many of these stones have been rescued and placed in churches or churchyards for safe keeping, as at Brawdy, Mathry, Maenclochog and Cilgerran. A stone in St Dogmael's church, used in decoding the ogham alphabet, has in Latin Sagarani fili Cunotami with the ogham Sagrani maqi Cunatami, commemorating one Sagranus son of Cunotamus. The Goidelic maqi, from which `mac' derives, would have been map or ap if Sagranus had been a Welshman.
The inscriptions date from fifth century onward, by which time Christianity had been long
established here. Pembrokeshire lay on the route of the Celtic saints, as the early missionaries were known, who travelled between Ireland and Rome or Jerusalem. It also had its own saint, David, born at St. David's to St Non, who is remembered by a chapel and a well above St Non's Bay. David was so revered that his shrine became a place of pilgrimage to the extent that two visits to St. David's cathedral equalled one to Rome. Bands of Norsemen marauded the Pembrokeshire coasts from the middle of the ninth century onward and plundered the cathedral at St David's on eight or more occasions. They left only their names on the offshore islands and on a few coastal settlements, like Angle and Goultrop and Dale in the south, and Fishguard in the north. The Normans lost no time in invading south Wales once its powerful prince, Rhys ap Tewdwr, was killed in 1093. Roger de Montgomery, Earl of Shrewsbury, and his son, Arnulf, swept across Wales to Pembroke. Arnulf later joined his brother, Robert, in revolt against the king, Henry I, and was banished, and Pembroke became a royal lordship with Gerald de Windsor as its custodian.
In north Pembrokeshire Robert FitzMartin occupied the Welsh stronghold at Nevern and established a Norman lordship in the hundred of Cemais. The hundred of Pebidiog, in which St. David's lay, remained in the hands of the bishop, but the Welsh bishop was replaced by a Norman. Nowhere in Wales was the Anglo-Norman grip stronger than in south Pembrokeshire. A line of powerful castles reaching from Roch to Tenby was Supported by a string of lesser fortresses along the foothills of the Presely Hills. In addition, there were the great castles of Carew, Manorbier and Pembroke. The Normans did not come alone; they brought large numbers of English followers whose anglicising influence was such that the southern part of Pembrokeshire became known a `Little England beyond Wales'. There was also an infusion of Flemings, sent hy Henry I.
The Welsh harassed the Anglo-Normans from the outset, and regained their territories except for Pembroke Castle. In 1096 they laid siege to the castle but they were hoodwinked by Gerald de Windsor who, although he had hardly any provisions left, threw his last few flitches of bacon over the palisade at the besiegers to make them believe that he was well supplied. The Welsh withdrew but only to fight and fight again, against overwhelming odds. Rhys ap Gruffydd recovered south Pembrokeshire in 1189, and Llywelyn the Great came in 1215, and Llywelyn the Last in 1277 overran the Norman lordships, but Pembroke was never taken.


http://www.pembrokeshire-online.co.uk/history2.htm

So there were two "enclaves" at either side of the Irish Sea with Normans, English & Flemish.

dubhthach

Indeed the area in Wales was known "Little England beyond Wales". The linguist boundary in South-West Wales somehwhat reflects the boundary that has been there since middle ages.

This boundary is known as the Landsker Line:


Gives a whole new meaning to the term "Little-Englander"

CDfm

Now there was 2 waves of the initial Norman Invasion ; you had Strongbow in 1169 & then the King in 1171 but that really was Leinster focused.

Subsequent "invasions" of Munster, Connaught and Ulster occurred with different personnel any of whom could have spoken the frog.

dubhthach

CDfm wrote: »

Now there was 2 waves of the initial Norman Invasion ; you had Strongbow in 1169 & then the King in 1171 but that really was Leinster focused.

Subsequent "invasions" of Munster, Connaught and Ulster occurred with different personnel any of whom could have spoken the frog.

A lot of the fighting though in Munster was by men who had originally entered with either Strongbow or Henry. For example the Fitzgearld's arrived with Strongbow. His second in command been a Fitzgearld though not ancestor of Irish Geraldines -- who descend from his Uncle. So for example you see James Fitzstephen at the siege of Limerick etc. There's a gap until excursions into Connacht which don't really happen until the arrival of the De Burghs in 1230's under Richard Mór de Burgh, of course his maternal grandfather was Domnall Mór Ó Briain (King of Thomond).

Of course De Courcey invasion of Ulster (Kingdom of Ulaid -- restricted to Antrim/Down) was regarded as a "private enterprise" at the time. No doubt one of reasons King John set Hugh De Lacy on him.

CDfm

dubhthach wrote: »

A lot of the fighting though in Munster was by men who had originally entered with either Strongbow or Henry. For example the Fitzgearld's arrived with Strongbow. His second in command been a Fitzgearld though not ancestor of Irish Geraldines -- who descend from his Uncle. So for example you see James Fitzstephen at the siege of Limerick etc. There's a gap until excursions into Connacht which don't really happen until the arrival of the De Burghs in 1230's under Richard Mór de Burgh, of course his maternal grandfather was Domnall Mór Ó Briain (King of Thomond).

The guys that came with Strongbow were renegades and it was their own enterprise. It was a "Leinster Venture".

Wexford, Waterford & Limerick were all Viking settlements. Were they "Tuath" in their own right.

Bannasidhe has written about the de Burgh -if I would find the post.

So who did they take over from and what did they take over and what type of military ,infrastructure did they need to enforce it.

As the OP asks what language did they speak?

This shows us how they might have viewed their allegiences.

Of course De Courcey invasion of Ulster (Kingdom of Ulaid -- restricted to Antrim/Down) was regarded as a "private enterprise" at the time. No doubt one of reasons King John set Hugh De Lacy on him.

Ulster would be different and wasn't there a kingdom of the Isles and various links with Scotland.

Ireland was not United.

dubhthach

CDfm wrote: »

Ulster would be different and wasn't there a kingdom of the Isles and various links with Scotland.

Ireland was not United.

Well the "Lordship of the Isles" and it's interaction with Ulster is somewhat later. The "Earldom of Ulster" collasped during the 14th century. Between the Scottish invasion during the Bruce Wars and then the murder of the "Brown Earl" (William Donn de Burgh -- which resulted in a "Burke civil war") you saw most of the territory "reconquered" by the "Clann Aodh Buidhe" O'Neill's (Buidhe = Buí in early modern Irish) in the south. Whereas the north of Antrim reverted to the McQuillans who were "Cambro-Norman" in origin. The Mac Domhnaill (MacDonnell/MacDonald) only started making their presence felt during the end of 14th century/early 15th century.

From an earlier point of view of course before DeCoury arrived the Ulaid were made up of three groups, Dál Riata, Dál nAraide (Cruithin) and Dál Fiachrach (actual Ulaid).

One could argue that position of Ireland in 1160's before arrival of Normans was basically quite similiar to lot of other European states at the time. Some have argued it was almost "proto-feudal" in that we see Centripetal force resulting in powerfull provincial leaders who fought each other during the whole "High King's with Opposition" stage. The O'Connors for example had in some ways accelerated this, "castle" building etc.. There were normans already in Ireland acting as mercenaries etc during the 12th century. Interesting enough an old name for them in Irish is "Na Gall Glas" (the grey foreigners -- mail)

CDfm

But Ireland was a collection of tuatha

a tuatha was loyal to the tuatha first

so back to the other loyalties and competing interests

the language is one

HavingCrack

dubhthach wrote: »

There were normans already in Ireland acting as mercenaries etc during the 12th century. Interesting enough an old name for them in Irish is "Na Gall Glas" (the grey foreigners -- mail)

Did "Na Gall Glas" not refer to mercenaries of Scottish origin rather than Normans?

CDfm

HavingCrack wrote: »

Did "Na Gall Glas" not refer to mercenaries of Scottish origin rather than Normans?

Was this the same as "galloglas" ?

dubhthach

Well Gall is root word in Gallowglass, but it's different term in Irish.

Gallóglach / Gallóglaigh (Plural).

Which is combination of Gall (Foreigner) and Óglach (Volunteer). Óglaigh na hÉireann been an official title of the Irish Army -- and misappropriated by certain illegal organisations.

You don't see them in Ireland until the 13th century onwards.

franc 91

Concerning the French spoken in Ireland by the Normans, I've found this -
http://www.uni-due.de/LI/Anglo-Norman.htm
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/hibfrbib.html

yoyo55

Hi I can speak and translate into yola if you need me to translate anything just ask - native of forth and bargy and a yole

garancafan

Hi yoyo,

Thanks for offering to share your skills. While I don't have any translation requirements just now, you may be able to throw some light on the pronunciation of "Bargy". Is it a soft g as in "barge" or a hard g as in "bargain"?