Identity of Anglo unsecured bondholders

sunshinediver

I realise similar topics have been discussed here before, However I just watched Enda Kenny being questioned on the news regarding the identity of the unsecured Anglo bond holders that recieved payment today. He claimed he simply didn't know and didn't appear to have any intention of finding out. Now I understand that the bonds may have been sold on in due course but records of these transactions are recorded. Surely some good investigative work by the department of finance or a private financial investigative firm could find out?

If the answer to the above question is "Yes it's possible to find out" the situation in my view is as follows.

The government knows exactly who they are, which is various wealthy hedge funds and banks, and by denying knowledge and playing dumb further public outcry is averted.

or

The government suspects they are as above, but refuses to confirm it for fear of public outcry etc. (Most likely)

or

The government simply doesn't care or is too incompetent to ask, and as such in my view would be unfit for office, I find it hard to believe that during these times of austerity the taoiseach of Ireland could be part of a government that pays €1.2 billion worth of unsecured bonds yet doesn't even ask where the money is going.

Interested to hear any thoughts.

hmmm

or

It is irrelevant, the government has decided it is in our best long term interest to repay the bonds and we elected them to make decisions on our behalf.

It's also irrelevant because those who receive the money will, in many cases, simply be intermediaries acting for the real owners.

chieftan65

how is it possible in a democratic state for the government to do something that its obvious the majority of the population dont want them to do

marketty

chieftan65 wrote: »

how is it possible in a democratic state for the government to do something that its obvious the majority of the population dont want them to do

Because we elected them

hmmm

chieftan65 wrote: »

how is it possible in a democratic state for the government to do something that its obvious the majority of the population dont want them to do

As Marketty says, we elected them to act on our behalf. We ask them to act on our behalf for a couple of years, and we don't ask them to hold a referendum on every decision they make. We expect them to spend their days making decisions on our behalf, while the rest of us get on with our own lives.

The_Thing

Interesting article on this over @ theJournal.ie -> Here’s who the Anglo payment may have gone to – and it’s not pretty

chieftan65

hmmm wrote: »

As Marketty says, we elected them to act on our behalf. We ask them to act on our behalf for a couple of years, and we don't ask them to hold a referendum on every decision they make. We expect them to spend their days making decisions on our behalf, while the rest of us get on with our own lives.

I am aware of all that. what i have problems with is the fact that paying these bond holders is a massive decision. spending money we simply cant afford to, making things a lot more difficult for the majority of us than it already is. This i feel is definitely a referendum decision. As you say we elected them to represent us, paying the bond holders does not i feel represent the wishes of the majority of the nation. The people who are directly to blame for whats going on in this country i.e greedy bankers, crooked politicians, developers get away with everything because the law protects them and the government cant touch them so they dont try, but they carry on and hand over vast amounts of our money against our will without a second thought. Why do the irish people shrug their shoulders and let them get on with it? if we had always been like this we would still be under british rule. What happened the fighting irish???

hmmm

chieftan65 wrote: »

What happened the fighting irish???

When you've finished foaming at the mouth, can you think of any reason why the government might have decided it was better to repay this debt?

Why do you think the government decided it was in our best interests to repay this debt? Are they stupid? Perhaps they hate Ireland and the Irish people? You tell us what you think, because I know why they made the choice and I agree with it.

Good loser

chieftan65 wrote: »

I am aware of all that. what i have problems with is the fact that paying these bond holders is a massive decision. spending money we simply cant afford to, making things a lot more difficult for the majority of us than it already is. This i feel is definitely a referendum decision. As you say we elected them to represent us, paying the bond holders does not i feel represent the wishes of the majority of the nation. The people who are directly to blame for whats going on in this country i.e greedy bankers, crooked politicians, developers get away with everything because the law protects them and the government cant touch them so they dont try, but they carry on and hand over vast amounts of our money against our will without a second thought. Why do the irish people shrug their shoulders and let them get on with it? if we had always been like this we would still be under british rule. What happened the fighting irish???

If they didn't pay they could have been sued.

Would we have won the court case?

Probably not and then we would have to pay the court costs as well.

As we are borrowing the money (to repay) the immediate cost is only the interest on this borrowing - say €50 m per annum. This is the only implication for this year's (and next years etc) budget.

marketty

Vote for sinn fein so, they reckon burning bond holders is the way to go, they also like to claim that British rule thing so they'd be right up your street

hmmm

Good loser wrote: »

This is the only implication for this year's (and next years etc) budget.

That plus the intangible benefits of being seen to pay the debts our government has assumed, which is a reputation that should influence our cost of debt well into the future.

As a commenter on the FT site says, "Glad to hear Ireland has returned to the bond markets. Given that they would rather sell their own mothers or children than default I would like to see them back next year at 5% - 5.5% 2yr decent return."

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2012/01/25/851411/ireland-returns-to-the-bond-market/#comments

chieftan65

ah... there's the problem.. always has been.. too many in this country who just accept everything without question.. no wonder fianna fail had it so good for so long, this crowd will do the same. the rest of the world will always have us to laugh at. the greeks dont want to be like us, iceland told their speculators where to go and now they are happy that at least they are no worse off than ireland. all these new taxes aimed at squeezing the last penny out of us are looked on the same way as everything.."sure its the law we have to pay it so we will".. what happens when does who defend this idea actually cant afford to pay it?? As far as i can see there are lots like that already but they are not on here defending household taxes and septic tank charges. its all about an image we can ill afford to maintain

jased10s

if he does not know the list of holders then how can the holders be paid ?

no a red cent more......

hmmm

chieftan65 wrote: »

all these new taxes aimed at squeezing the last penny out of us are looked on the same way as everything.."sure its the law we have to pay it so we will".. what happens when does who defend this idea actually cant afford to pay it??

So no bond market loans and no new taxes. Where would you prefer to cut to get the 15 billion we need to finance our deficit?

Icepick

chieftan65 wrote: »

the greeks dont want to be like us, iceland told their speculators where to go and now they are happy that at least they are no worse off than ireland.

If you think that the Greeks or Icelanders are no worse than us, you need to stop accepting what you hear and read without questions.

jased10s

hmmm wrote: »

So no bond market loans and no new taxes. Where would you prefer to cut to get the 15 billion we need to finance our deficit?

If ireland was a company they would have sorted out the deficit long ago and would be running at a profit that they could invest in the country.

Its simple economics.
more in less out.

HellFireClub

marketty wrote: »

chieftan65 wrote: »

how is it possible in a democratic state for the government to do something that its obvious the majority of the population dont want them to do

Because we elected them

But a lot of people (and I thankfully wasn't one of them), voted for this government because this majority party, during the election campaign, specifically committed to not, using their very own words, allowing another cent of taxpayers money, to be spent in this manner.

Yet you think it's fine now for that central commitment, that let's be honest about it, got this party and this government elected, to be completely thrown back in the face of an electorate who took this commitment in good faith and voted in this government???

Something about this whole think STINKS to the high heavens. This from the party that promised reform, honesty and decency in politics??? There must be something being pumped into the water in this country for Irish people to be still tolerating this.

andrew

HellFireClub wrote: »

But a lot of people (and I thankfully wasn't one of them), voted for this government because this majority party, during the election campaign, specifically committed to not, using their very own words, allowing another cent of taxpayers money, to be spent in this manner.

Yet you think it's fine now for that central commitment, that let's be honest about it, got this party and this government elected, to be completely thrown back in the face of an electorate who took this commitment in good faith and voted in this government???

Something about this whole think STINKS to the high heavens. This from the party that promised reform, honesty and decency in politics??? There must be something being pumped into the water in this country for Irish people to be still tolerating this.

Why do people believe politicians who make promises they'll clearly never be able to keep? Especially when it's clear that it won't be in their interest to keep that promise when the time comes.

thebman

andrew wrote: »

Why do people believe politicians who make promises they'll clearly never be able to keep? Especially when it's clear that it won't be in their interest to keep that promise when the time comes.

I don't think most poeple believed they would, that is why they voted for FG.

Think about it, if burning bondholders was that high up peoples agenda, they wouldn't be picking a safe, middle of the road party like FG as that is an extremist policy.

quietriot

buzzerxx wrote: »

no i wont be squealling like them pigs ,i will be happy that the mass suffering of the starving children and their parents and the prostituted,the drug addled, the destitute,the debt riddled,the ripped off will be put out of their misery,and leave this world to the insects who live a a much more decent existence.

Yeah, living in your own **** and surviving to merely be food for an animal higher in the food chain is a great existence? I didn't know it came it invincibility though? Fair play to them I say, I mean I thought that when I squished an ant, it was dead, but according to you they can survive the fires of the apocalypse. News to me Buzzer

With regards to those people and their misery, a lot could have been prevented, couldn't it? I mean, drug addicts didn't have to do drugs, those in debt didn't have to borrow all that money, right? So they've only themselves to blame really. Can't point the finger at everyone else just because you messed up your own situation after all.

Need direct democracy for decisions like this

chieftan65

so hmmm and marketty.... just to clarify... you agree with paying these people??? you agree with all the new taxes being implemented at the minute to raise money just so we can pay these gamblers?? and the new taxes and charges still to come is that what your saying?????

KerranJast

chieftan65 wrote: »

so hmmm and marketty.... just to clarify... you agree with paying these people??? you agree with all the new taxes being implemented at the minute to raise money just so we can pay these gamblers?? and the new taxes and charges still to come is that what your saying?????

All the new taxes are being raised to compensate for our hideous overspending during the boom and our reliance on stamp duty as a main source of tax.

The banking debt is small fish compared to our fiscal deficit and is being funded by the ECB.

irishh_bob

rumour has it that this was one of the main beneficiaries of the irish tax payers generosity yesterday

swampgas

I don't understand why it matters who the bond holders are. All that should matter, surely, is what the legal contract is between Anglo and the bond holder - not who the bond holder might be.

If you sell a bond, and you and the buyer sign a contract, why should it matter whether the buyer is a pension fund / investment bank / hedge fund?

If the bond gets legally transferred to someone else, it still has no effect on the original contract ...

Either the bond holders are legally entitled to be repaid, or they're not. Who they are should be irrelevant, surely?

Voodoo_rasher

Ever wonder how many of these Bond-holders were elected to Parliament last March, if any? Ha ha.

Yes, it does matter Mr Swampgas. Familiar with the term 'conflict of interest'.

antoobrien

thebman wrote: »

Think about it, if burning bondholders was that high up peoples agenda, they wouldn't be picking a safe, middle of the road party like FG as that is an extremist policy.

It's an interesting point, the vast majority of of voters stuck with the 3 "safe" parties - taking up something like 75% of the dail.

I think some of the Lab voters will have gone that way because they believed the rhetoric but not mang FG (especially anyone that remembered they bailed out AIB in the 80s).

Personally I think a lot of people rolled in behind FG hoping Lab wouldn't get into government (I did & several people told me they did the same).

swampgas

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

Ever wonder how many of these Bond-holders were elected to Parliament last March?

Yes, it does matter Mr Swampgas. Familiar with the term 'conflict of interest'.

Interesting allegation.

Are you saying that there are TDs (I assume you mean the Dáil when you say Parliament) who are buying millions of Euro worth of bonds? Or that they are being bribed by bond-holders to ensure that they get paid in full?

HellFireClub

I think a matter as serious as this sholud have gone before the people, and if the people reject it, then if there are consequences to be endured, the people can then be expected endure them.

But people didn't vote for this, they were given firm commitments that this policy of bailing out basket banks would cease, and if they were somehow under any illusion whatsoever about what the new policy would be subsequent to an election, the words, "NOT ANOTHER CENT", were used to leave people under no doubt as to what the policy would be if FG were elected as the main party in government.

In hindsight, we should have copped that we were dealing with another shower of snakes and we should have been protesting for a referendum on this, before or in tandem with any general election that was held.

Geuze

Bank bonds are not typically held directly by individuals.

The bondholders are typically pension funds, investment funds, hedge funds, etc.

Geuze

Denmark allowed two small banks to fail, and they senior bonds suffered a loss.

There were negative repurcussions, overall bank funding costs did rise.

It is not costless to default on bank senior debt.

They could do this as they are not in the eurozone.

antoobrien

swampgas wrote: »

Or that they are being bribed by bond-holders to ensure that they get paid in full?

Yes, their being bribed by their own pension funds and wanting to ensure they keep their own deposits;)

chieftan65

KerranJast wrote: »

All the new taxes are being raised to compensate for our hideous overspending during the boom and our reliance on stamp duty as a main source of tax.

The banking debt is small fish compared to our fiscal deficit and is being funded by the ECB.

I dont know why you continue using the OUR word. I didn't overspend and if i did then it would have been my fault and i wouldn't have expected everyone else to pick up the tab

antoobrien

chieftan65 wrote: »

I dont know why you continue using the OUR word. I didn't overspend and if i did then it would have been my fault and i wouldn't have expected everyone else to pick up the tab

The our word is very relevant, after all we did elect, then twice reelect the government that spent all that money on our behalf.

What's really interesting is that if you go through the numbers, they ran a surplus for several years of the boom, so the overspending is in hindsight (always a wonderful thing that).

Meanwhile the junior members of our erstwhile new government cried out for even more spending - it's a good job the old government didn't or the banks wouldn't have had the chance to cause the mess to cave in.

Scofflaw

Geuze wrote: »

Denmark allowed two small banks to fail, and they senior bonds suffered a loss.

There were negative repurcussions, overall bank funding costs did rise.

It is not costless to default on bank senior debt.

They could do this as they are not in the eurozone.

We could do it despite being in the eurozone.

cordially,
Scofflaw

KerranJast

chieftan65 wrote: »

I dont know why you continue using the OUR word. I didn't overspend and if i did then it would have been my fault and i wouldn't have expected everyone else to pick up the tab

I meant the Royal Our Even if you didn't overspend personally and didn't vote for Fianna Fail, the Greens or the PDs (neither did I btw) you would still have benefited by :
- (worker) a reduction in tax as Fianna Fail took a load of people out of the higher tax bands.
or
-(unemployed) higher dole payments and other social benefits
or
- (pensioner) increased pensions and other state supports

swampgas

swampgas wrote: »

Interesting allegation.

Are you saying that there are TDs (I assume you mean the Dáil when you say Parliament) who are buying millions of Euro worth of bonds? Or that they are being bribed by bond-holders to ensure that they get paid in full?

Lenihan and Cowen wouldnt say at the time if any in cabinet held anglo irish bank accounts nevermind if anyone was a bondholder. They also refused to name the golden circle. Kenny hasnt changed any of this.

That kind of stonewalling arouses my suspicion.

antoobrien

Deleted User wrote: »

Lenihan and Cowen wouldnt say at the time if any in cabinet held anglo irish bank accounts nevermind if anyone was a bondholder.

Don't TDs have to register these kinds of details?

Besides the names of the bondholders change because they are traded on the bond markets, so until somebody presents a bond certificate to the NTMA (or whoever issued them), they only have a vague idea of who might own the bonds.

DoesNotCompute

Identity of Anglo unsecured bondholders

Minister Michael Noonan, for one.

Source

EDIT:

Also, this.

antoobrien

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Minister Michael Noonan, for one.

Source

Not Anglo bonds

Mr Noonan, who has opposed “burning” bondholders in the main Irish banks, owns German government bonds paying a modest 1.75 per cent rate of interest and maturing in 2020, according to his entry in the register.

Worztron

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/List-of-bondholders-in-Anglo-Irish-Bank-leaked-110903209.html

Another link: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HLD-3KNiebg/TLr-M1e2p-I/AAAAAAAAAAg/9gcaIADoGBw/s1600/ai-bondholders.gif

Every last one should be burned. No big surprise to see the evil blood sucking rothschild family in there.

:mad:

swampgas

Worztron wrote: »

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/List-of-bondholders-in-Anglo-Irish-Bank-leaked-110903209.html

Another link: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HLD-3KNiebg/TLr-M1e2p-I/AAAAAAAAAAg/9gcaIADoGBw/s1600/ai-bondholders.gif

Every last one should be burned. No big surprise to see the evil blood sucking rothschild family in there.

:mad:

So you propose that you should be able to renege on your debts when you don't like the person to whom you owe the money?

Worztron

swampgas wrote: »

So you propose that you should be able to renege on your debts when you don't like the person to whom you owe the money?

When did I say that? Non-guaranteed bond holders should swing.

swampgas

Worztron wrote: »

When did I say that? Non-guaranteed bond holders should swing.

Sorry - misinterpreted what you were saying. I thought the reference to the "evil blood sucking rothschild family" meant that you think they can be "burned" simply because of who they are.

Scofflaw

Worztron wrote: »

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/List-of-bondholders-in-Anglo-Irish-Bank-leaked-110903209.html

Another link: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HLD-3KNiebg/TLr-M1e2p-I/AAAAAAAAAAg/9gcaIADoGBw/s1600/ai-bondholders.gif

Every last one should be burned. No big surprise to see the evil blood sucking rothschild family in there.

:mad:

That list is a political concoction of senior and junior bondholders with many institutions (all the Irish ones, for example) carefully removed, as well as being, at this stage, very out of date.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Liam Byrne

antoobrien wrote: »

chieftan65 wrote: »

I dont know why you continue using the OUR word. I didn't overspend and if i did then it would have been my fault and i wouldn't have expected everyone else to pick up the tab

The our word is very relevant, after all we did elect, then twice reelect the government that spent all that money on our behalf.

Are you seriously defending incorrect use of the word "our" via incorrect use of the word "we" ?

Scofflaw

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Are you seriously defending incorrect use of the word "our" via incorrect use of the word "we" ?

Enough nitpicking.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Skopzz

These bondholders are evil people that deserve NOTHING for their ponzi scheme.

Unless Noonan inflicts further losses upon these bondholders, he is digging his political grave. Already, Sinn Fein are tipped to replace the current Gov't should early elections happen. Noonan has the opportunity to burn these bondholders - He MUST do it.

Deny them any money Ireland its not our debt.

Liam Byrne

Scofflaw wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Are you seriously defending incorrect use of the word "our" via incorrect use of the word "we" ?

Enough nitpicking.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Since when does requesting honesty and objecting to over-generalisation fall under the category of "nitpicking" ?

If a traveller came on here and objected to being included in a gross generalisation that "ye" are all drunken thugs, would that be frowned upon ?

The deliberate misuse of "us", "we" and "our" by those trying to justify current policies is the same principle, and boards should be encouraging honesty, not objecting when someone requests it.

Chuck Stone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The deliberate misuse of "us", "we" and "our" by those trying to justify current policies is the same principle, and boards should be encouraging honesty, not objecting when someone requests it.

Hear, hear.

Scofflaw

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Since when does requesting honesty and objecting to over-generalisation fall under the category of "nitpicking" ?

If a traveller came on here and objected to being included in a gross generalisation that "ye" are all drunken thugs, would that be frowned upon ?

The deliberate misuse of "us", "we" and "our" by those trying to justify current policies is the same principle, and boards should be encouraging honesty, not objecting when someone requests it.

We've had this argument before. I hear what you're saying, it's in your signature, and it's in your signature because I told you last time that I'd ban you if you turned every thread into your personal crusade about it.

That still stands - and a ban this time will be permanent, because if it's all you're going to contribute to the forum, it's not worth it. Also, infracted for grandstanding about it on thread rather than contacting me by PM, as you know full well is the proper way to do it.

moderately,
Scofflaw