Are diesels really worth it?

SachaJ

The missus is looking at a car and it seems anyone who is buying has to have a diesel so she thinks that the way to go.

She wants an X-Trail.

So for instance here's two cars:

2009. 52,000 miles, 2.0 Diesel, 12 month warranty from Nissan dealer. Tax €677. Asking €15,950

2008, 27,000 miles, 2.0 Petrol, 12 month warranty from Nissan dealer. Tax €660. Asking €10,999

I realise the 2009 is a year newer so lets discount €2000 for that. So it's €3000 difference in the two cars which will buy a fair bit of petrol.

So is diesel really worth it? Considering she drives 3 miles each way to work, dropping the kids off in creche along the way. Maybe once or twice a month we'd go out of Dublin in it (usually one of Cork, Carlow, or Dundalk)

Only bad thing I can think is that a petrol will be harder to sell as again, everyone wants a diesel.

Anan1

SachaJ wrote: »

So is diesel really worth it? Considering she drives 3 miles each way to work, dropping the kids off in creche along the way. Maybe once or twice a month we'd go out of Dublin in it (usually one of Cork, Carlow, or Dundalk)

Hardly.

WestWing

If she drives so few miles in the XTrail the DPF regeneration warning light will be on every other week.

The engine needs regular 30min + journeys to prevent the DPF getting clogged.

Great car, well spec'd and comfortable, lovely engine, but not suited for short journeys.

spank_inferno

If your satisfied with the make/model the Petrol one is the way to go based on the examples provided.

SachaJ

WestWing wrote: »

If she drives so few miles in the XTrail the DPF regeneration warning light will be on every other week.

The engine needs regular 30min + journeys to prevent the DPF getting clogged.

Great car, well spec'd and comfortable, lovely engine, but not suited for short journeys.

Surely that would be on the diesel only though? So the petrol would be more suited to her needs.

From what I can see, the petrol gets around 30mpg whereas the diesel gets upwards of 40 (my numbers could be wrong - very quick Google search). So if she does 10000 miles a year it will cost around €2500 for the petrol and €1875 for the diesel in yearly fuel costs. Those numbers are very rough I know and her 3 mile commute will drink fuel.

I guess at that rate the diesel pays for itself if kept over 4 years

cjt156

SachaJ wrote: »

Surely that would be on the diesel only though? So the petrol would be more suited to her needs.

Yep, Diesel Particulate Filter; not an issue on a Petrol engine.

Oh, and one turbo, DPF, or DMF failure and all your savings are wiped out.
Not sure if these are an issue on your particular model.

pred racer

SachaJ wrote: »

Surely that would be on the diesel only though? So the petrol would be more suited to her needs.

From what I can see, the petrol gets around 30mpg whereas the diesel gets upwards of 40 (my numbers could be wrong - very quick Google search). So if she does 10000 miles a year it will cost around €2500 for the petrol and €1875 for the diesel in yearly fuel costs. Those numbers are very rough I know and her 3 mile commute will drink fuel.

I guess at that rate the diesel pays for itself if kept over 4 years

A couple of my friends have diesel x-trails (2.0 and 2.2) they would both be over the moon with 40mpg;) dunno about the petrols.

WestWing

40mpg is realistic and achievable for the 150bhp 2.0 diesel (T31 model 2007 >).

The 2.0 petrol is closer to 25mpg

Leonard Hofstadter

Diesel engines take much longer to warm up than petrol engines, so if the car is going to be used on mostly short runs there will be no fuel savings at all.

Most diesel engines will not have warmed up after only a three mile drive, a petrol won't be fully warmed up either (the coolant will be at the right temperature, but the oil won't have fully warmed up by that stage) but it will be a hell of a lot more warmed up than a diesel will be.

ligertigon

I drive a 70bhp diesel that does 45mpg motorway
My 180bhp petrol does 40mpg
Thats 40 miles per tank more from the diesel.(360 v 400)
The petrol is refined and quiet, cheaper, and road tax is less.

The great diesel con continues.....

3 mile to work? cycle it in 20mins even if your unfit.

166man

SachaJ wrote: »

The missus is looking at a car and it seems anyone who is buying has to have a diesel so she thinks that the way to go.

She wants an X-Trail.

So for instance here's two cars:

2009. 52,000 miles, 2.0 Diesel, 12 month warranty from Nissan dealer. Tax €677. Asking €15,950

2008, 27,000 miles, 2.0 Petrol, 12 month warranty from Nissan dealer. Tax €660. Asking €10,999

I realise the 2009 is a year newer so lets discount €2000 for that. So it's €3000 difference in the two cars which will buy a fair bit of petrol.

So is diesel really worth it? Considering she drives 3 miles each way to work, dropping the kids off in creche along the way. Maybe once or twice a month we'd go out of Dublin in it (usually one of Cork, Carlow, or Dundalk)

Only bad thing I can think is that a petrol will be harder to sell as again, everyone wants a diesel.

You'd want to be off the wall to consider the diesel engine. Firstly the tax is the same so no saving there. Also OP the difference is much greater than just 3000euro because of course you will get a discount on the petrol car too. Say it was a 1000 discount. You would want to be doing serious miles to claim back nearly 4000 in fuel costs. Seeing as the annual mileage is low I'd be going petrol.

Yes it will be harder to sell on late but as said earlier any problems on the diesel i.e DPF will negate any savings made on fuel. I'm sorry but 4 grand is too much of a difference. I'd be going petrol and run it into the ground.

SachaJ

SachaJ wrote: »

................

So is diesel really worth it? Considering she drives 3 miles each way to work, dropping the kids off in creche along the way................

ligertigon wrote: »

............

3 mile to work? cycle it in 20mins even if your unfit.

Cycling is hardly an option

SachaJ

So did some more sums tonight. I've worked out that our average mileage is around the 7000 mark per year.


So going by these figures: http://www.car-emissions.com/cars/model/nissan/x-trail
2008 Petrol combined 31mpg
2009 Diesel combined 38mpg

Petrol: 7000 miles @ 31mpg = 1129 litres by €1.56 = €1761 per year.
Diesel: 7000 miles @ 38mpg = 921 litres by €1.55 = €1427 per year.

(current prices from pumps.ie)

So by those numbers, a difference of €334 per year on fuel costs. Need to be driving the petrol car 9 years to come close to the price of the diesel car.

Leonard Hofstadter

166man wrote: »

I'm sorry but 4 grand is too much of a difference. I'd be going petrol and run it into the ground.

+1, also the OP should try and get more off, take advantage of the fact that the sheep will want the diesel even though for many of them the petrol engine would be the better option so make sure you get a bit off the list price of the car, try the whole "it's a petrol so I'll never get anything for it when I want to sell it on" thing etc etc.

EPM

Isn't the petrol the old model? How long are you keeping it? Seems a lot of money for a very hard to sell car IMO.

SachaJ

EPM wrote: »

Isn't the petrol the old model? How long are you keeping it? Seems a lot of money for a very hard to sell car IMO.

New model came out in 2007 and the 2008 cars still had petrol engines. I think they stopped with the petrol engines after that as the tax went up to €1129 under the emissions system. So early 2008 petrol cars are on the engine size tax rate which is €660.

Facelift then in 2010 and new diesel engines I think as their emissions tax is €481 compared to a 2009 diesel that's around €677.

Leonard Hofstadter

SachaJ wrote: »

Petrol: 7000 miles @ 31mpg = 1129 litres by €1.56 = €1761 per year.
Diesel: 7000 miles @ 38mpg = 921 litres by €1.55 = €1427 per year.

If the car is going to be driven around town you'll be doing well to get 25 mpg from the petrol. Something like a 1.6 Focus or Avensis etc will struggle to top 30 mpg in urban driving, so an X-Trail won't have a hope in hell of getting close to never mind exceeding 30 mpg. However, you'll hardly get any more from the diesel model because you won't be driving it long enough for it to warm up, plus diesels only really come into their own at higher speeds where they run at much lower revs than an equivalent petrol engine.

Fiskar

SachaJ,

Petrol, no brainer.

Although why on earth one would want an Xtrail for a 3 mile commute is beyond me. Are you towing a trailer or on a farm?

SachaJ

Fiskar wrote: »

SachaJ,

Petrol, no brainer.

Although why on earth one would want an Xtrail for a 3 mile commute is beyond me. Are you towing a trailer or on a farm?

Maximum points were awarded in the child safety tests for the protection of the three year old. The X-TRAIL recorded 43 points for child protection, the maximum yet achieved in Euro NCAP tests, and is one of only two vehicles to achieve the score.

Reason above is a huge one. Protect the kids.

Neither myself nor my wife are from Dublin so in order to visit family (hers or mine) it is at least a full day trip and more usually overnight. Going overnight usually means bringing loads of crap for the kids - buggies, travel cot, nappy bags, suitcase etc etc. X-Trail has loads of boot space.

ligertigon

RoverJames wrote: »

Cycling is hardly an option

No?
http://www.halfords.ie/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_11101_catalogId_15551_productId_724051_langId_-1_categoryId_212384

db330

The petrol will depreciate alot more than the diesel.

so if you only keep it for a couple of years the diesel may work out cheaper in the long run.

Bigcheeze

SachaJ wrote: »

[
Reason above is a huge one. Protect the kids.

And with that front end, F*** up everyone elses kids! :pac:

teednab-el

SachaJ wrote: »

Fiskar wrote: »

SachaJ,

Petrol, no brainer.

Although why on earth one would want an Xtrail for a 3 mile commute is beyond me. Are you towing a trailer or on a farm?

Maximum points were awarded in the child safety tests for the protection of the three year old. The X-TRAIL recorded 43 points for child protection, the maximum yet achieved in Euro NCAP tests, and is one of only two vehicles to achieve the score.

Reason above is a huge one. Protect the kids.

Neither myself nor my wife are from Dublin so in order to visit family (hers or mine) it is at least a full day trip and more usually overnight. Going overnight usually means bringing loads of crap for the kids - buggies, travel cot, nappy bags, suitcase etc etc. X-Trail has loads of boot space.

First off

I can't understand people that buy 4x4s other than for work purposes (i.e towing trailers) I honestly think people don't need them for everyday driving.

Eventhough it may seem like a tank to you, at the end of the day the XTrail is not bulletproof and if it's involved in an accident it's still going to fold up just like a car depending where it's hit and the nature of the impact etc. This protecting the kids stuff is nonsense. 4x4s have a greater chance of overturning than that of a car so that's another danger that's there. High centre of gravity, lethal if you loose control.

yourpics

teednab-el wrote: »

First off

I can't understand people that buy 4x4s other than for work purposes (i.e towing trailers) I honestly think people don't need them for everyday driving.

Eventhough it may seem like a tank to you, at the end of the day the XTrail is not bulletproof and if it's involved in an accident it's still going to fold up just like a car depending where it's hit and the nature of the impact etc. This protecting the kids stuff is nonsense. 4x4s have a greater chance of overturning than that of a car so that's another danger that's there. High centre of gravity, lethal if you loose control.

Did you not hear that people with kids own the road?

Ardennes1944

My astra cost 4,200 and has 8 airbags and 5star ncap....i doubt the xtrail would hold up much better

Jimdagym

teednab-el wrote: »

First off

I can't understand people that buy 4x4s other than for work purposes (i.e towing trailers) I honestly think people don't need them for everyday driving.
.

How about because they want to?

cson

Yup, every other person in the States has an SUV of some description; how many trailers are towed by them? Fuck all.

A lot of people giving the OP a rough ride here considering he asked a fairly simple question; was the diesel version worth the 4k odd extra - and by and large everyone has said no.

SachaJ

Ardennes1944 wrote: »

My astra cost 4,200 and has 8 airbags and 5star ncap....i doubt the xtrail would hold up much better

In this instance, I'd expect an X-Trail to hold up much better (ie. where a tall vehicle hits another tall vehicle side on). Doubt your 8 airbags would be much good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXeKSDpFjlg

SachaJ

yourpics wrote: »

Did you not hear that people with kids own the road?

Very well informed response. Thank you for taking the time.....

SachaJ

teednab-el wrote: »

I can't understand people that buy 4x4s other than for work purposes (i.e towing trailers) I honestly think people don't need them for everyday driving.

I don't think people need them either. Its a choice. I don't think people need to drive sports cars or motorbikes either.

teednab-el wrote: »

Eventhough it may seem like a tank to you, at the end of the day the XTrail is not bulletproof and if it's involved in an accident it's still going to fold up just like a car depending where it's hit and the nature of the impact etc.

Of course it will. No such thing as a car that will protect you in every type of accident.

teednab-el wrote: »

This protecting the kids stuff is nonsense.

I presume you're better informed than the results of the Euro NCAP tests. Please do tell.....

teednab-el wrote: »

4x4s have a greater chance of overturning than that of a car so that's another danger that's there. High centre of gravity, lethal if you loose control.

So by your rational I should be out looking at Lambo's since they are low and wide (lower COG) and therefore safer? Be fairly tough getting to two baby seats in the back of one of those (if it even had back seats)

WestWing

Ardennes1944 wrote: »

My astra cost 4,200 and has 8 airbags and 5star ncap....i doubt the xtrail would hold up much better

I dare you to go head to head in your Astra against an XTrail. Let's see who walks away.

SachaJ

WestWing wrote: »

I dare you to go head to head in your Astra against an XTrail. Let's see who walks away.

How about a Disco and an A4 head on. Family walked away in the Discovery, they found the A4's drivers organs on the roof of the Land Rover.



Not sure can you really compare a Discovery to an X-Trail though as the Land Rover is much stronger.

R.O.R

First time I drove an X-Trail I thought I was going to die coming off the M50 (northbound) on to the Naas Road. Felt like it was going to fall over on the bend - not helped by the horrible seating position that feels like you are leaning over the steering wheel.

Had a Petrol X-Trail during the Snow in 2010/2011 for about 8 weeks. Lovely specification, but still a hideous driving position and it was costing me around €20 a day to do my 124km round trip to work and back (fuel was around €1.35 a litre at the time I think). It was an auto and had a hard life before I drove it, but can't imagine the manual is going to be that much better on fuel.

My old Pajero Sport felt less likely to fall over on the road (and I've seen pics of at least 4 of those which have turned turtle).

Might be OK for a 3 mile trip to work and back, but they really aren't a nice place to be for a long journey.

Something like a C-Max would be a better option for the long journeys, will have similar space inside and handle a lot better.

166man

This always seems to happen on this forum. If the OP wants an X-Trail let him buy an X-Trail. He has asked for advice on whether to go for petrol or diesel, why can't some people understand that some people might wasnt a different car to what they prefer.

pred racer

Is diesel worth it?

In your case......no imho.

yourpics

SachaJ wrote: »

Very well informed response. Thank you for taking the time.....

Firstly, I have good reason to make the comment that I did. One day I was travelling a narrow road and I saw another car approaching. I pulled in at a wide spot and waited. The other car pulled up and the driver gave out that I was going too fast (despite being stationery and going out of my way to be a good motorist). He said to me that he had a child in the back. I pointed out that his child was unrestrained.

4x4 are not as safe as you might think. Some of them can be very light at the rear and if you try to drive them like a car, you can get easily caught out and end up spinning around.

If your wife is only travelling 3 miles a day, buy a Ford Focus or Opel Astra (petrol). Save you a fortune on motor tax and probably a small amount on insurance. These cars will be easier to sell on than a petrol (or diesel) X-Trail.

SachaJ

yourpics wrote: »

Firstly, I have good reason to make the comment that I did. One day I was travelling a narrow road and I saw another car approaching. I pulled in at a wide spot and waited. The other car pulled up and the driver gave out that I was going too fast (despite being stationery and going out of my way to be a good motorist). He said to me that he had a child in the back. I pointed out that his child was unrestrained.

Fair enough, but don't paint us all with the same brush

yourpics wrote: »

If your wife is only travelling 3 miles a day, buy a Ford Focus or Opel Astra (petrol). Save you a fortune on motor tax and probably a small amount on insurance. These cars will be easier to sell on than a petrol (or diesel) X-Trail.

We're a 1 car family. Where do you propose that we put all our gear in a Focus or Astra as mentioned above in my requirements? We currently have a Seat Leon which is good for the commute (around 1/4 of the mileage we do) but next to useless for going anywhere outside Dublin, hence we're changing.

But besides all that. It's not a thread about what car is best. I drive a motorbike for my commute to work and she drives the car. She wants something big and safe for the kids, loads of room for gear and the X-Trail fits the bill.

So thanks to everyone for the advice. I'll try and talk her around to the petrol but shes currently one of these diesel is best people.....

Anan1

166man wrote: »

This always seems to happen on this forum. If the OP wants an X-Trail let him buy an X-Trail. He has asked for advice on whether to go for petrol or diesel, why can't some people understand that some people might wasnt a different car to what they prefer.

The OP has made it clear that child safety is a major consideration. The OP's wife is more likely to kill a child in an X-Trail than in a car. Just sayin'.;)

WestWing

Anan1 wrote: »

The OP has made it clear that child safety is a major consideration. The OP's wife is more likely to kill a child in an X-Trail than in a car. Just sayin'.;)

PaulKK

Why not get a petrol estate, like a legacy?

166man

Anan1 wrote: »

The OP has made it clear that child safety is a major consideration. The OP's wife is more likely to kill a child in an X-Trail than in a car. Just sayin'.;)

Ok well know you're bringing the OP's wifes driving ability into the debate. Completely irrelavent. The OP wants a safe car to protect their own children in, the X-Trail fits the bill. Also the X-Trail isn't exactly a 3 Tonne SUV, its not too much bigger than an estate but is more handy for them.

If people had read the original post, they'd have seen that he wanted to know if petrol or diesel was better. He didn't ask for peoples opinion on what car to buy, just which one would make more sense.

Rose35

Im also in same dilemma. drive currently a 1.4 focus petrol and am changing to an audi a3, my dilemma is petrol or diesel, a guy in a garage i am dealing with has informed me that the audi has a better reliability in the diesel version than the petrol, i have a 3 mile commute to work and back everyday so im not sure that buying diesel is wise, but the advise that i will have less problems with the diesel version is outwaying the reasons for petrol engine..........dilemmas dilemmas

Anan1

166man wrote: »

Ok well know you're bringing the OP's wifes driving ability into the debate. Completely irrelavent.

?? No, i'm not. This is about the car, not the driver.

166man wrote: »

The OP wants a safe car to protect their own children in, the X-Trail fits the bill. Also the X-Trail isn't exactly a 3 Tonne SUV, its not too much bigger than an estate but is more handy for them.

I disagree. I think a good estate would offer better active safety, and equal passive safety too.

166man wrote: »

If people had read the original post, they'd have seen that he wanted to know if petrol or diesel was better. He didn't ask for peoples opinion on what car to buy, just which one would make more sense.

Given that he values safety, I thought he might find the discussion interesting.

@ SachaJ - I have a Subaru Forester, which is similar in overall dimensions to an X Trail. It handles very well for what it is, but it's still not as safe as a good estate. There's just no getting around the laws of physics - taller cars are less stable than lower ones. I need the offroad ability, so I accept the compromise. I'm not saying you shouldn't buy an X Trail, I just wouldn't buy it primarily on the grounds of safety.:)

bladespin

Anan1 wrote: »

The OP has made it clear that child safety is a major consideration. The OP's wife is more likely to kill a child in an X-Trail than in a car. Just sayin'.;)

I'd say the odds were pretty even for either car once you're over a given speed.

Anan1

bladespin wrote: »

I'd say the odds were pretty even for either car once you're over a given speed.

Unfortunately not. The front of the X Trail is almost vertical, so it's more likely to smack the pedestrian down onto the road rather than lifting them up onto the bonnet & windscreen as a car might. Because their sides are taller, SUVs also have larger blind spots directly in front of, behind, and to the side of the vehicle. Finally, your chances of performing an effective evasive maneouvre are a lot slimmer in an X Trail than they would be in a car.

166man

Anan1 wrote: »

?? No, i'm not. This is about the car, not the driver.

I disagree. I think a good estate would offer better active safety, and equal passive safety too.

Given that he values safety, I thought he might find the discussion interesting.

@ SachaJ - I have a Subaru Forester, which is similar in overall dimensions to an X Trail. It handles very well for what it is, but it's still not as safe as a good estate. There's just no getting around the laws of physics - taller cars are less stable than lower ones. I need the offroad ability, so I accept the compromise. I'm not saying you shouldn't buy an X Trail, I just wouldn't buy it primarily on the grounds of safety.:)

You said the wife is more likely to kill a child in an X-Trail than in a car, implying she is a bad driver. How would somebody be more likely to kill a child in an X-Trail than a hatchback??

I don't know why you are suggesting different cars for the OP. Did he not make it clear it was an X-Trail they wanted and it was a matter of which engine to go for? Why not just advise the OP on which engine is better rather than suggesting other cars.

Anan1

166man wrote: »

You said the wife is more likely to kill a child in an X-Trail than in a car, implying she is a bad driver.

No, it has nothing to do with the driver

166man wrote: »

How would somebody be more likely to kill a child in an X-Trail than a hatchback??

See my last post.

166man wrote: »

I don't know why you are suggesting different cars for the OP. Did he not make it clear it was an X-Trail they wanted and it was a matter of which engine to go for? Why not just advise the OP on which engine is better rather than suggesting other cars.

Yes you do, because i've already told you.;)

I went from an 03 TDI A4 auto, to an 07 Prius. also an auto (obviously)

Average per tank in the A4 was 40 mpg, in the prius it's 62mpg, yes you do have to learn how to drive a Prius properly and that doesn't mean at 40 mph either. The Prius is also much bigger inside!

What diesels achieve on the motorway are lost in towns and cities, and I've been driving diesels for 350,000 miles and the rest!

The prius does 50 easy on the motorway at 120 kph, but it goes up in slower traffic but it doesn't go down!

The best I got in the Prius was 3.6L/100km (78 mpg) last June on a 40 km round trip.
In winter if you like a lot of heat it will use more fuel to keep you warm, if you turn off the ac altogether you can save a lot.

So I'd never go back to the rattle of a Diesel, btw the Prius has great 0-60kph acceleration, and it climbs steep hills like the clappers. It does lack above 100 kph, but at the cost of fuel these days I don't care!

So all this hype about diesel is over rated, and I don't like diesels being promoted as (clean) when they are the biggest cause of air pollutants next to coal fires power stations! C02 won't kill me or give me cancer but E.U only cares about Co2!

Best thing is we only paid 8K for the prius with 49K on the clock, the Polish lad we bought it off was desperate to sell it because he couldn't take it over there because of the steering on the right!

You can also convert the Prius to plug in to make a very nice cheap (ish) E.V!

daseire

I think go for the diesel. You do say that it will take some time to recoup the extra money spent but chances are that if your only driving 3 miles a day in 4 years time when you come to sell it the mileage will still be quite low. It wont depreciate as much as the petrol so you should make your money back when you come to sell it. If it was me and i had the finances and the choice i would choose the diesel.

166man

166man wrote: »

You said the wife is more likely to kill a child in an X-Trail than in a car, implying she is a bad driver. ............

He implied nothing of the sort, no doubt that's how you interpreted it though.

yourpics

SachaJ wrote: »

We're a 1 car family. Where do you propose that we put all our gear in a Focus or Astra as mentioned above in my requirements? We currently have a Seat Leon which is good for the commute (around 1/4 of the mileage we do) but next to useless for going anywhere outside Dublin, hence we're changing.

Ah sorry, I assumed you had two cars.
I think an estate would be a good option.

But if you are set on going for an X-Trail I think the diesel will be easier to re-sell.