Flashing amber pedestrian lights

Tombo2000

There is a street near me where two school kids have been killed recently in two seperate accidents, both of which took place at a traffic lights.

I dont know the details of the incidents so I cant say exactly what took place.

But I did notice that at both lights, there is a system whereby light goes Red for traffic, and then goes green for pedestrian. Then it goes amber for traffic and flashing green for pedestrian.

It is the latter part I have difficulty with.

As a driver, pedestrian and cyclist, it is pretty clear to me that drivers do not stop for Orange lights. Full stop. They dont.

That is not say that people dont understand the rules of the road. its simply to say that they dont obey them.

Why then would a pedestrian take a chance on walking out on a flashing green man, if the traffic light is orange.....which is not a signal that makes Irish drivers stop.

But nevertheless the Green pedestrian light is telling them it is safe to walk, when it is patently not.

Does anyone else see a major hazard in this. It creates a potentially dangerous situation in my view.

dellWlan

Tombo2000 wrote: »

There is a street near me where two school kids have been killed recently in two seperate accidents, both of which took place at a traffic lights.

I dont know the details of the incidents so I cant say exactly what took place.

But I did notice that at both lights, there is a system whereby light goes Red for traffic, and then goes green for pedestrian. Then it goes amber for traffic and flashing green for pedestrian.

It is the latter part I have difficulty with.

As a driver, pedestrian and cyclist, it is pretty clear to me that drivers do not stop for Orange lights. Full stop. They dont.

That is not say that people dont understand the rules of the road. its simply to say that they dont obey them.

Why then would a pedestrian take a chance on walking out on a flashing green man, if the traffic light is orange.....which is not a signal that makes Irish drivers stop.

But nevertheless the Green pedestrian light is telling them it is safe to walk, when it is patently not.

Does anyone else see a major hazard in this. It creates a potentially dangerous situation in my view.

After red for traffic it should go flashing amber. Flashing amber means go if it's safe to go. Just as solid amber means stop if it's safe to stop. At a pedestrian lights if there were pedestrians it's safe to assume it's not safe to go on a flashing amber.
What I've noticed is pedestrian lights where there's no junction usually get completely ignored by motorists. Not even stopping on red.

spank_inferno

Yep your correct, at flashing amber, the pedestrian will still have right of way so the motorist holds fast till its a green.... and then consider moving.

unless its all definetely clear.... then move on.

Shame about the incidents at the OPs location though.

Cool Mo D

Tombo2000 wrote: »

Why then would a pedestrian take a chance on walking out on a flashing green man, if the traffic light is orange.....which is not a signal that makes Irish drivers stop.

But nevertheless the Green pedestrian light is telling them it is safe to walk, when it is patently not.

A flashing green man means that you are not allowed to start crossing the road, but you have time to finish crossing if you are on the road. Surely this is common knowledge?

Kensington

Cool Mo D wrote: »

A flashing green man means that you are not allowed to start crossing the road, but you have time to finish crossing if you are on the road. Surely this is common knowledge?

I always thought so too, at least that's what they always taught me in school all those years back!

Green = Walk (if safe to do so)
Green flashing = Do not start to cross

And for the drivers point of view, flashing amber means proceed only if there is no-one crossing at the time and it is safe to do so ("proceed with caution").

ArmaniJeanss

Cool Mo D wrote: »

A flashing green man means that you are not allowed to start crossing the road, but you have time to finish crossing if you are on the road. Surely this is common knowledge?

I think the issue is more with the idea of there being 'pedestrian green' at the same time as 'driver amber'. Regardless of the intricacies of what flashing means. unfortunately drivers see any orange as Go, and pedestrians see any green as Go.

Tombo2000

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I think the issue is more with the idea of there being 'pedestrian green' at the same time as 'driver amber'. Regardless of the intricacies of what flashing means. unfortunately drivers see any orange as Go, and pedestrians see any green as Go.

That is my point also.

Its not what the actual rule is.

Its how people interpret the rule.

An amber light is very often ignored by drivers. If anything its a signal to drive faster so you get through ahead of the red.

A green man flashing or otherwise, is a signal for many pedestrians to walk across.

dellWlan

Tombo2000 wrote: »

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I think the issue is more with the idea of there being 'pedestrian green' at the same time as 'driver amber'. Regardless of the intricacies of what flashing means. unfortunately drivers see any orange as Go, and pedestrians see any green as Go.

That is my point also.

Its not what the actual rule is.

Its how people interpret the rule.

An amber light is very often ignored by drivers. If anything its a signal to drive faster so you get through ahead of the red.

A green man flashing or otherwise, is a signal for many pedestrians to walk across.

I think there are rules relating to lit and unlit pedestrian crossings. Not sure exactly what the rules are about who goes way to whom but I reckon at all pedestrian crossings drivers should give way to pedestrians. it's just common decency for one and the lit or unlit thing wouldn't come into then.

I live in Clare and they'd regularly attempt to drive over you at pedestrian crossings regardless. They've no idea how to drive down here.

Tombo2000

putting it another way.....

there is no need to have a flashing amber.

if it is showing green for pedestrian (flashing or otherwise) then it should show red for a car.

As red is the only thing that cars (sometimes) stop for.

Del2005

TBH it doesn't mater if the pedestrian light is showing Amber, Flashing Amber or Green.

Green means proceed if the way is clear, not GOOOOO like some people think, so the motorists shouldn't move till the pedestrian has cleared the road ahead of them. But then you have kids running across the road on Red pedestrian lights into traffic as the motorist is ALWAYS wrong, not carrying that a car will do them more harm then they can possibly do to a car.

It's all down to ZERO enforcement of any of our traffic/road laws bar exceeding the posted speed limit and DUI. Just look at the parking around any school.

If people don't know someone who's been done and never see a copper why would they bother obeying the law? There's so little risk of being caught it's a joke, if it wasn't so serious.

Tombo2000

I'll put it another way....

there is no need for flashing amber.

if it showing green for a pedestrian then it should show red for motorists, as red is the only thing that motorists stop for (and not even always at that).

its not good enough to assume that 9 year olds are au fait with the Rules of the Road, and that they will understand the distinction between Green Pedestrian and Flashing Green Pedestrian.

Tombo2000

Del2005 wrote: »

Green means proceed if the way is clear, not GOOOOO like some people think, so the motorists shouldn't move till the pedestrian has cleared the road ahead of them.

There's so little risk of being caught it's a joke, if it wasn't so serious.

Do you mean for the Pedestrian?

So a green Pedestrian light means only go if the way is clear?

Thats a new one on me.

I'm not blaming the motorist or the pedestrian per se here, I'm saying the amber flashing light creates a confusing and unclear situation....

Cool Mo D

Tombo2000 wrote: »

Do you mean for the Pedestrian?

So a green Pedestrian light means only go if the way is clear?

Thats a new one on me.

I'm not blaming the motorist or the pedestrian per se here, I'm saying the amber flashing light creates a confusing and unclear situation....

Having a green light doesn't absolve you from being aware of the situation around you. You shouldn't cross the road without looking if you have a green light. And that goes double for cars - don't go through a traffic light unawares, no matter what the colour.

seamus

The problem is that pedestrians are unaware (or ignore the fact) that a flashing green or an amber pedestrian light mean "do not cross" and instead try to race across the road without looking.

As far as I can tell, drivers are well capable of telling the difference between an amber at a pedestrian crossing and an amber at a normal junction.

The flashing amber/flashing green combination provides for better traffic flow as it allows drivers to go provided that the pedestrian crossing is clear rather than having to wait twice that time for the ped light to go red.

Eiretrains

seamus wrote: »

As far as I can tell, drivers are well capable of telling the difference between an amber at a pedestrian crossing and an amber at a normal junction.

The flashing amber/flashing green combination provides for better traffic flow as it allows drivers to go provided that the pedestrian crossing is clear rather than having to wait twice that time for the ped light to go red.

These were my thoughts also. I assume most drivers know when seeing a flashing amber that they cannot proceed unless the crossing is totally clear. These type of crossings have been around since the 1960s, but they are much more common in the UK.

Maybe off topic, but regarding the traffic flows; I noticed during the boom years several of the old crossings were replaced with standard type crossings at junctions, as if it was too inconvenient to install the original sequence, and on main roads it often results in unnecessary prolonged wait, so much so that I have seen impatient motorists simply break the red lights when no pedestrians are around. If the original sequence was in place perhaps things might be safer for both parties.

hmmm

seamus wrote: »

The problem is that pedestrians are unaware (or ignore the fact) that a flashing green or an amber pedestrian light mean "do not cross" and instead try to race across the road without looking.

Since when? I can't find any reference to this in the rules of the road. On a Pelican crossing a flashing ember gives priority to pedestrians.

Tombo2000

hmmm wrote: »

Since when? I can't find any reference to this in the rules of the road. On a Pelican crossing a flashing ember gives priority to pedestrians.

http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/pedestrians.html

nothing in this refers to it.

if anything, it contradicts the interpretation that most posters have assumed.

Eiretrains

Tombo2000 wrote: »

http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/pedestrians.html

I think priority means to those pedestrians on the crossing at the time the flashing sequence begins, but pedestrians should not start to cross if it has already begun, as what was displayed on the old style push buttons (but these are mostly gone). For some reason the Irish webpage omits this. I always think of the Dad's Army demonstration.

Tombo2000

Eiretrains wrote: »

I think priority means to those pedestrians on the crossing at the time the flashing sequence begins, but pedestrians should not start to cross if it has already begun, as what was displayed on the old style push buttons (but these are mostly gone). For some reason the Irish webpage omits this. I always think of the Dad's Army demonstration.

with respect to your bold comment, is it you think or you know? Where is the rule?
I've already shown you a link that seems to indicate that this is not true (or at least, that it is not specified).



Under 'Rules for Pedestrians', the Driving school handbook says: "A flashing amber light at a pelican crossing gives priority to pedestrians. "

Thats all it says, it mentions nothing about the comment you made in BOLD.


I'm not saying your wrong, rather I'd like to see it written down somewhere.

Anyway, assuming you are right, you can presumably see how there might be some confusion over this.

Bottom line for me....

If a ten year old walks out on a flashing green man and gets hit by a truck,is it enough to say
"tough luck, you should have known the rules"
or should one ackowledge that this is a confusing and ambigous situation that adults can't properly understand so you can hardly expect kids to.

With regard to the comment re the UK.....and added issue is that there are not that many Pelican crossings in Ireland, ie not that many crossings where you hit the flashing amber. This means people are more likely to be unaware of how they work.

hmmm

This is what the rules of the road says:

"Pelican crossing
At this crossing, an amber light will flash for a short period after the red light for
drivers goes out. Similarly, the ‘green man’ light for pedestrians will flash for a
short time before changing to the ‘red man’ light. A flashing amber light at a
pelican crossing gives priority to pedestrians."

I've always assumed a flashing green gives me the right to cross if I'm at or approaching the junction (as a pedestrian).

Either way I think it's not a system that works well in Ireland because:
a) Many drivers don't care and will just drive through the flashing ambers at speed - so as a pedestrian you can't trust the lights anyway.
b) There is no enforcement by the guards for people who break the lights
c) Most cyclists almost completely ignore them and it can be highly dangerous for a pedestrian to cross.

hmmm

Interestingly, this is on the city of London website

"The Corporation no longer installs Pelican crossings as a standard light controlled crossing provides a better facility for pedestrians."

They also say that in the UK, pedestrians shouldn't start to cross when the green light is flashing.

Eiretrains

Tombo2000 wrote: »

with respect to your bold comment, is it you think or you know? Where is the rule?
I've already shown you a link that seems to indicate that this is not true (or at least, that it is not specified).

I think it's just not specified really. According to the Traffic Signs Manual:

"9.8.7
The pedestrian signal sequence is red figure, steady green figure, flashing green figure, red figure.
The green figure flashes to indicate that pedestrians should not start to cross.
The duration of the green figure signal, which indicates that pedestrians may start to cross the road, shall be based on the time to cross the full road width at a walking speed of 1.2m/s, and shall be a minimum of 6 seconds."

This is what used to be displayed on our crossing push buttons, with the instructions to pedestrians. The 'WAIT' light for pedestrians appears when the flashing sequence begins. There are still some of these about, but the majority were all replaced about 10 years ago for the more modern arrow type, so they no longer say anything. I remember in school days you used to see leaflets issue by the the garda (or RSA if it existed back then?) with those old instructions.

I totally agree with the ambiguity of these crossings though, and how there's so few examples of it compared to other crossings in Ireland. Also pedestrians have the right away on the roads in general, so in one way the crossing instructions are simply advisable. Motorists should always slow on the approach to a flashing amber anyway, like they do for a zebra crossing which is effectively the same thing.

monument

Many motorists don't obey any light.

Amber lights are treated as a joke, a huge percentage of motorists speed up rather than stop when there's loads of time to stop.

Loads of motorists seem completely blind to filter lights and somehow see the green arrow lights turn green and then they turn left or right.

Then there's the massive amount of motorists ones who -- usually in heavy traffic -- can't see the lights because they have already broken the rules about entering a junction without a clear way out. But it's often not just one car that breaks the light, those motorists have the side effect on the ones behind them who could see the lights if they looked but they only see the traffic on front of them move so they also move, like sheep or Lemmings.

Victor

Eiretrains wrote: »

Maybe off topic, but regarding the traffic flows; I noticed during the boom years several of the old crossings were replaced with standard type crossings at junctions, as if it was too inconvenient to install the original sequence, and on main roads it often results in unnecessary prolonged wait, so much so that I have seen impatient motorists simply break the red lights when no pedestrians are around. If the original sequence was in place perhaps things might be safer for both parties.

What do you mean by "old crossings" and "standard type crossings"?

Cookie_Monster

Victor wrote: »

What do you mean by "old crossings" and "standard type crossings"?

old = zebra
new = traffic light controlled

maybe...?

Tombo2000 wrote:

Under 'Rules for Pedestrians', the Driving school handbook says: "A flashing amber light at a pelican crossing gives priority to pedestrians. "

whatever that says is meaningless, the Raod Traffic Acts are they only thing that matter when it come to the laws of the roads

Del2005

Eiretrains wrote: »

Also pedestrians have the right away on the roads in general, so in one way the crossing instructions are simply advisable. Motorists should always slow on the approach to a flashing amber anyway, like they do for a zebra crossing which is effectively the same thing.

Pedestrians only have right of way if they enter a non light controlled junction before a vehicle. If a vehicle has entered the junction then the pedestrian has to let the vehicle exit the junction before crossing. Also if there are lights than the pedestrian is supposed to obey them and it was illegal for pedestrians to cross a road with IIRC 20m of a signal controlled junction.

monument wrote: »

Many motorists don't obey any light.

Amber lights are treated as a joke, a huge percentage of motorists speed up rather than stop when there's loads of time to stop.

Loads of motorists seem completely blind to filter lights and somehow see the green arrow lights turn green and then they turn left or right.

Then there's the massive amount of motorists ones who -- usually in heavy traffic -- can't see the lights because they have already broken the rules about entering a junction without a clear way out. But it's often not just one car that breaks the light, those motorists have the side effect on the ones behind them who could see the lights if they looked but they only see the traffic on front of them move so they also move, like sheep or Lemmings.

To be fair saying that motorists ignore lights is a bit silly since very few road users obey any of the laws. Pedestrians ignore red lights, cross at illegal place. Cyclists ignore red lights, don't light up at night. Motorists ignore red lights, exceed the posted speed limit etc etc

I could go on but I think you get the drift. The only solution if for our law enforcers to enforce road traffic laws for ALL road users and not just the easiest ones.

Don't forget that while a motorist may have more responsibility due to the potential for injury, every road user has to look after their own safety 1st. As even being in the right doesn't mean you won't get hurt or worst.

steve-o

Tombo2000 wrote: »

But I did notice that at both lights, there is a system whereby light goes Red for traffic, and then goes green for pedestrian. Then it goes amber for traffic and flashing green for pedestrian

That is not how it works. First the green man starts flashing. The traffic light stays red. After 3 or 4 seconds the amber light starts flashing for traffic. If the flashing starts simultaneously then the light is faulty.

Tombo2000

steve-o wrote: »

That is not how it works. First the green man starts flashing. The traffic light stays red. After 3 or 4 seconds the amber light starts flashing for traffic. If the flashing starts simultaneously then the light is faulty.

I hadnt noticed but maybe this the case.

Either way I'd say its pedantics.

My general point is that if there is flashing amber for drivers and flashing green for pedestrians, this creates confusion.

We are are still debating here what the actual rule for pedestrians is on the green flashing man, no one has been able to define it.

To be honest, I've seen enough on this thread to say there is no agreement on how these traffic lights work, and the rules are not reasily available on the internet and are not shown clearly on the Rules of the Road.

So coming back to my initial point....

this is a road where two school kids have been killed at Pelican pedestrian crossings in the past 5 years.

As I mentioned earlier, I dont know the details of either case.

But it does strike me that Pelican crossings present a major hazard to the pedestrian, particularly to kids who may make an assumption that they are safe to cross on a Green Man.

Which leads to the next point....

you would think the Dublin County Council might come out and review a street where two fatalities have ocurred.......but this does not appear to have happened.....

Tombo2000

Del2005 wrote: »

To be fair saying that motorists ignore lights is a bit silly since very few road users obey any of the laws. Pedestrians ignore red lights, cross at illegal place. Cyclists ignore red lights, don't light up at night. Motorists ignore red lights, exceed the posted speed limit etc etc

I could go on but I think you get the drift. The only solution if for our law enforcers to enforce road traffic laws for ALL road users and not just the easiest ones.

Don't forget that while a motorist may have more responsibility due to the potential for injury, every road user has to look after their own safety 1st. As even being in the right doesn't mean you won't get hurt or worst.

The problem I have with your post is that (in my view) you are saying "if only everyone obeyed the traffic laws, then we'd all be ok".

Fair enough.

I am not blaming the pedestrian or the motorist here.

I am saying that Pelican crossings present an ambiguous unclear situation, especially for kids.

A ten year old sees a green man and thinks it is safe to walk across. Its not good enough to say, tough luck ten year old, you are responsible for your own safety, you should have checked with the Road Traffic Act.
A driver sees an amber light, and usually drives through it.

Pelican crossings present an amber light and green man at the same time.

Tombo2000

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

old = zebra
new = traffic light controlled

maybe...?


whatever that says is meaningless, the Raod Traffic Acts are they only thing that matter when it come to the laws of the roads

http://www.rotr.ie/pdf-downloads/english/rules-of-the-road%20eng.pdf

Page 167 of the Rules of the Road from the Road Safety Authority says exactly the same thing.

galwaycyclist

OK I am offering this without endorsement of Irish traffic law or typical practice in pedestrian crossing provision.

Traffic and Parking Regulations SI182/1997
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a46

"(3) A pedestrian about to cross a roadway at a place where traffic sign number RPC 003 or RPC 004 [pedestrian lights] has been provided shall do so only when a lamp of the facing pedestrian lights is lit and emits a constant green light."

I recall coming across a paper years ago that found that 70% of the female casualties at pedestrian crossings were knocked down during the green man phase at the lights.