Whats the point of music snobbery?

karaokeman

I am quite interested in the topic of music snobbery.

It seems very popular on the Music forum here on boards and also in real life, you always get it when talking to a person that doesn't like the music you like.

U2 and Coldplay fans are particular looked down on in my experience.

In your opinion why do people with different tastes in music give out and insult the band you like and the fans of that band?

Why in your opinion can they not just say for example "I'm not that keen on Radiohead's music" and leave it at that?

I've heard many people say for example that Bob Dylan is terrible and that most of his fans are sad oldies. Personally I don't like Bob Dylan that much but I try to avoid insulting his fan base and indeed anyone I meet who is a fan.

No trolls please, I would like honest opinions on this.

ntlbell

personally and I've said it before I think it's an age thing.

Once you reach a certain age for most people they stop being f*ck tards and music snobbery is just one of the traits of such people.

Looking down on someone is always a good boost for your self esteem also.

Rigsby

ntlbell wrote: »

personally and I've said it before I think it's an age thing.

Once you reach a certain age for most people they stop being f*ck tards and music snobbery is just one of the traits of such people.

Looking down on someone is always a good boost for your self esteem also.

I agree that it is an age thing, but not in the way you describe it. A lot of people IMO dont stop being f*ck tards once they reach adulthood.

Here is my theory FWIW. People's musical tastes are formed fairly young. These tastes are then kind of "cemented" or strongly ingrained during the teenage "rebellious" teenage years. Generation after generation have been told by their parents to "turn down that noise". The parents and the music they listen to are generally regarded as old fashioned. So an "us and them" musical attitude is aquired at an early age, and is often continued into adulthood. When most people reach adulthood, the need or inclination to conform to fashion dwindles and they start to seek out and discover other types of music. Ironically, this can sometimes be the "old fashioned" music their parents listened to. Granted, a lot of people are influenced by the music they hear in the home at an early age. My theory is just a general one. IMO there should be no reason, except maybe personality, as to why mature adults would look down on any type of music.

Music is music. Whether any particular type is good or bad is up to ( or should be ) each individual to decide for him/her self.

rcaz

I think some people get so into music that less good music annoys them. I know I was like that for a while. I'd just discovered Autechre, Xenakis, Stravinsky, John Coltrane, and a few other 'big deal' (for me, anyway) musicians, and it irritated me that so many other artists could get away with musical careers when they weren't coming up with such new ideas like those guys were.

I got over that soon enough though, and 'cemented' what I think is the most important opinion I've ever figured out about music - it's all ****ing brilliant. Even the worst song you've ever heard is fantastic - it's an excellent example of how to make an awful song.

Rebecca Black's Friday gets a lot of hate, look how good that song was at getting all around the world, into everyone's head, while still being so empty and meaningless, and unashamedly so. I don't really get Merzbow's harsh noise stuff, and it makes a lot of people really uncomfortable and even angry to hear those kinds of sounds - how interesting is it that one guy playing music can get those reactions?

I think ntlbell has it right, giving out about other people's stuff makes you look better. There's some interesting stuff in Sociology and Musicology about the notion of Cultural Capital. If you go to the right clubs and know all the coolest music, you've got more 'capital' than a less-involved follower of the same subculture, so you're 'better', or whatever.

I don't think there's a point to music snobbery, other than flexing your "I'm so cool" muscles. I was definitely a big time offender a few years ago but I like to think I've copped on :pac:

Now if you'll excuse, I'm going to go listen to something you've probably never heard of :cool:

Android 666

karaokeman wrote: »

Why in your opinion can they not just say for example "I'm not that keen on Radiohead's music" and leave it at that?.

Because there's no fun in that, is there? Why not go the whole hog and say 'Radiohead sound like someone getting a ballsectomy without anasthetic while sitting on a broken talking calculator'. It's an awful lot more satisfying…

Saying you don't like something doesn't necessarily mean you're being snobbish it might mean your taste is a bit more selective. Of course you might be the only one selecting it but c'est la vie. It's a short life, enjoy the music you like and enjoy giving out about the music you don't! That's why the invented the interwebs.

And remember…

<Snip>

Let's be a bit more respectful, please.

bohsmug

I don't think that picture is funny lad. But then that's probably the reaction you were looking for.

I am pie

Some people obsess over Music, the same way some people obsess over cheese, wine, cars or cinema. The invest a little extra effort in trying to recognise unique talent, they spend more money than the rest and they invest more emotionally.

All of this is great, commendable and necessary to support musicians we've never heard of but might well like if the fledgling artist breaks through. However, once this obsession turns to elitism (telling people what they should and should not listen too, making assumptions around personality based on musical tastes) then it becomes as boring as any other form of elitism in society.

Snobs and bores aren't for me !

Rigsby

Android 666 wrote: »

I was trying to get across the pointlessness of the 'Music is Subjective' debate through the subtle promotion of domestic violence.

I cant say that the cartoon has enlightened me any, on the "Music is Subjective" debate.

Jimmy Iovine

I see it in some ways when I tell people that I like rap. In college the lads I lived with would recoil and complain every time I put on a rap song. One lad in particular was beyond repulsed at the idea of "black music" being played in the house when we were drinking before we went out.

I always laughed at him because his idea of good music was the Wolfetones, Cheryl Cole, Katy Perry. He sang that "I kissed a girl" song for months in first year, and the same when Cheryl Cole had that song in the charts a year or so ago.

I didn't really let it bother me. They could never come up with a valid reason as to why they didn't like rap other than "it's ****e", "only black people listen to it" and so on. The best I heard was a guy I went to the Gaeltacht with who called it Retards Attempting Poetry.

I get enjoyment from discovering new rappers. Recently I was recommended an album by a guy called P.O.S. and it's fantastic. Then you have the likes of Rakim, Common, Raekwon, Big L, Big Punisher, Nas and my favourite artist at the moment without a doubt Ghostface Killah.

I can't listen to the stuff on X-Factor. That's not music to me. I ignored it every weekend it was on. I can't stand the likes of Ed Sheeran. He's an alright singer but I don't particularly like the way people follow him at times just for the sake of following him. Maybe I need to get new friends on Facebook and Twitter but that's my feeling. I listened to one of his songs a year ago "A-Team". I thought it was new version of the A-Team theme tune. Of course I was bitterly disappointed when I found out it wasn't.

Technically I don't look on people with different tastes than me but I certainly feel sorry for them. I feel sorry for the fact that they are happy to expose themselves to, in many cases, mindless drivel because it's in the charts, it's easily accessible and everyone is talking about it. It's easier than going out and searching fora and asking people for new music or recommending it yourself.

I feel the same way about books, films and tv shows. I can't understand why some people get so worked up about that Geordie Shore. These are people who are in college doing respectable courses that teach the idea of critical thinking yet they cannot critically think for themselves and are sucked into watching the new 'it' programme.

I have almost no idea where I have gone with this, I've rambled an awful, awful lot. To try and sum it all up I suppose the music snobbery that I've experienced is as a result of a stereotype that some people have towards a certain genre. This stereotype often seems to be as a result of lack of knowledge about the genre. I was hesitant myself and dismissed rap when I was younger until I took the time to listen to it and delve deeper beyond the "bitches and hoes" surface in the charts.

I feel that if the snobbyists (made that up there :pac:) took the time to listen to all of U2's catalogue, all of Radiohead's or Bob Dylan's or whoever then their opinions would change. That's on the basis that their views are not so ingrained in their mind that it is impossible to change. For many people they may not have the time to listen to all the music necessary for this to happen, but we can live in hope. I make it my mission everyday to try and make one person listen to a proper rap song, I'm hardly ever successful but I try.

Apologies if none of the above makes any sense.

Technocentral

Stupid question. If your passionate about something like music you tend to have (rightly) strong opinions about what is good and what is shiite and are liable to express your views forthrightly, especially when it comes to crap like Coldplay.

lordgoat

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

I see it in some ways when I tell people that I like rap. In college the lads I lived with would recoil and complain every time I put on a rap song. One lad in particular was beyond repulsed at the idea of "black music" being played in the house when we were drinking before we went out.

I always laughed at him because his idea of good music was the Wolfetones, Cheryl Cole, Katy Perry. He sang that "I kissed a girl" song for months in first year, and the same when Cheryl Cole had that song in the charts a year or so ago.

I didn't really let it bother me. They could never come up with a valid reason as to why they didn't like rap other than "it's ****e", "only black people listen to it" and so on. The best I heard was a guy I went to the Gaeltacht with who called it Retards Attempting Poetry.

I get enjoyment from discovering new rappers. Recently I was recommended an album by a guy called P.O.S. and it's fantastic. Then you have the likes of Rakim, Common, Raekwon, Big L, Big Punisher, Nas and my favourite artist at the moment without a doubt Ghostface Killah.

I can't listen to the stuff on X-Factor. That's not music to me. I ignored it every weekend it was on. I can't stand the likes of Ed Sheeran. He's an alright singer but I don't particularly like the way people follow him at times just for the sake of following him. Maybe I need to get new friends on Facebook and Twitter but that's my feeling. I listened to one of his songs a year ago "A-Team". I thought it was new version of the A-Team theme tune. Of course I was bitterly disappointed when I found out it wasn't.

Technically I don't look on people with different tastes than me but I certainly feel sorry for them. I feel sorry for the fact that they are happy to expose themselves to, in many cases, mindless drivel because it's in the charts, it's easily accessible and everyone is talking about it. It's easier than going out and searching fora and asking people for new music or recommending it yourself.

I feel the same way about books, films and tv shows. I can't understand why some people get so worked up about that Geordie Shore. These are people who are in college doing respectable courses that teach the idea of critical thinking yet they cannot critically think for themselves and are sucked into watching the new 'it' programme.

I have almost no idea where I have gone with this, I've rambled an awful, awful lot. To try and sum it all up I suppose the music snobbery that I've experienced is as a result of a stereotype that some people have towards a certain genre. This stereotype often seems to be as a result of lack of knowledge about the genre. I was hesitant myself and dismissed rap when I was younger until I took the time to listen to it and delve deeper beyond the "bitches and hoes" surface in the charts.

I feel that if the snobbyists (made that up there :pac:) took the time to listen to all of U2's catalogue, all of Radiohead's or Bob Dylan's or whoever then their opinions would change. That's on the basis that their views are not so ingrained in their mind that it is impossible to change. For many people they may not have the time to listen to all the music necessary for this to happen, but we can live in hope. I make it my mission everyday to try and make one person listen to a proper rap song, I'm hardly ever successful but I try.

Apologies if none of the above makes any sense.

Absolutely superb post. Makes perfect sense.

What annoys me more the music snobs are people who play the 'you're just being a snob cos you don't like what i do card'

For me, some music is sh-it. I'm not going to dress it up for you. You won't convince me otherwise. I can appreciate pop music no end. It's when people try and attach more meaning to it, oh they play their own instruments, oh they write there own songs - as if this somehow makes it better? It's a weak argument and it pisses me off.

For me, music has to mean something, it has to make you feel something. Be that a catchy pop tune with a great drum beat or lyrics that genuinely say something to not just me, but the world in general. And everything that falls in between.

Sure music matters more to some people than others. The fact i listen to more music than others doesn't make me better, it doesn't make my opinion any more valid (to them). It doesn't make me snobbish, it just means i have an opinion. And if you listen to sh-it music, you'll probably disagree with me.

Sl!mCharles

Well said Jimmy!

rcaz

lordgoat wrote: »

The fact i listen to more music than others doesn't make me better, it doesn't make my opinion any more valid (to them). It doesn't make me snobbish, it just means i have an opinion. And if you listen to sh-it music, you'll probably disagree with me.

I've got a kind of maybe controversial idea here, wondering if anyone agrees with me. If you listen to lots more music than someone, if your musical net is broader or more developed or more experience, then you should have a more valid opinion right?

Like people might tell Jimmy Iovine that all hip hop is crap, he might say "No it's not, you should listen to X Y Z...", then the "Oh all music is subjective, your opinion isn't any better than mine!" counter-argument... Well his opinion is more important, 'cause he's devoted time to see what's good and what's bad, right?

I do think everything's subjective - it's art, after all - but if someone's spent years listening to all kinds of music, their opinion should be given a bit more consideration than someone who's listened to one or two kinds of music for a few months, right? I'm not saying a more-developed opinion can't be argued and proved wrong, but it would probably take more arguing.

lordgoat

El Pr0n wrote: »

I've got a kind of maybe controversial idea here, wondering if anyone agrees with me. If you listen to lots more music than someone, if your musical net is broader or more developed or more experience, then you should have a more valid opinion right?

Like people might tell Jimmy Iovine that all hip hop is crap, he might say "No it's not, you should listen to X Y Z...", then the "Oh all music is subjective, your opinion isn't any better than mine!" counter-argument... Well his opinion is more important, 'cause he's devoted time to see what's good and what's bad, right?

I do think everything's subjective - it's art, after all - but if someone's spent years listening to all kinds of music, their opinion should be given a bit more consideration than someone who's listened to one or two kinds of music for a few months, right? I'm not saying a more-developed opinion can't be argued and proved wrong, but it would probably take more arguing.

I really want to post saying: Snob.

But you make a valid point! I wouldn't agree with the 'more valid' opinion but definitely a more rounded opinion. The only thing worse than a music snob is someone who thinks they listen to good music but in reality they don't. (not you, you actually listen to a huge selection of music)

rcaz

lordgoat wrote: »

(not you, you actually listen to a huge selection of music)

Aw thanks! I wasn't sure, nice one :pac:

Mindkiller

El Pr0n wrote: »

I've got a kind of maybe controversial idea here, wondering if anyone agrees with me. If you listen to lots more music than someone, if your musical net is broader or more developed or more experience, then you should have a more valid opinion right?

Like people might tell Jimmy Iovine that all hip hop is crap, he might say "No it's not, you should listen to X Y Z...", then the "Oh all music is subjective, your opinion isn't any better than mine!" counter-argument... Well his opinion is more important, 'cause he's devoted time to see what's good and what's bad, right?

I do think everything's subjective - it's art, after all - but if someone's spent years listening to all kinds of music, their opinion should be given a bit more consideration than someone who's listened to one or two kinds of music for a few months, right? I'm not saying a more-developed opinion can't be argued and proved wrong, but it would probably take more arguing.

Well, someone who has a genuine curiosity for music and actively seeks out new sounds should definitely have a more informed opinion than someone who just absorbs it passively. I don't think it's snobbery to say that they're probably in a better position to argue 'X is better than Y' and so on. Just like in academia, some guys are more credible than others. Doesn't mean they're infallible either.

I hate the whole 'Oh shut up, music tastes are subjective' argument. It's boring.

karaokeman

Some interesting posts made here and I totally agree with the idea that music snobbery probably originates from people who are really into a band. These are the people who get so into that band and what they have done that its difficult to appreciate other bands who have not done so much either influentially or for that person in their own lives. I suppose these are the two sides to it.

Personally Coldplay are my all-time favourite band but I respect the fact that they are not the most influential band of my time either.

For others and for music influence in general not including myself I would probably have Nirvana and Radiohead as huge influences on music.

With Nirvana you can see how much they have inspired bands like Smile Empty Soul, Puddle of Mudd, Creed, Weezer, Silver Chair, Seeder, The Exies, Flyleaf and of course the Foos.

Radiohead's album OK Computer was really successful and came with the end of Britpop that was before many other bands like Bloc Party and TV on the Radio cited it as an influence.

One thing I would say on this comment;

Android 666 wrote: »

Because there's no fun in that, is there? Why not go the whole hog and say 'Radiohead sound like someone getting a ballsectomy without anasthetic while sitting on a broken talking calculator'. It's an awful lot more satisfying…

Saying you don't like something doesn't necessarily mean you're being snobbish it might mean your taste is a bit more selective. Of course you might be the only one selecting it but c'est la vie. It's a short life, enjoy the music you like and enjoy giving out about the music you don't! That's why the invented the interwebs.

And remember…

<Snip>

Let's be a bit more respectful, please.

There is a difference, I'm getting more at how disliking someone's music can sometimes turn into a vendetta that is held against another person.

I can't stand Justin Bieber and think he's a choir singer at best but in the case of his fans I just accept they have different taste in music. I love bashing him and his music all I like but I don't think its fair to judge his fans for that reason.

I think it is fair to say that a person who has listed to lots of music has a more educated opinion, I would generally ask if a person likes "X, Y and Z" before assuming they would not listen to those acts.

I can appreciate pop music that means something to me, Justin Bieber, The Wanted and any rap stars don't. Their music does nothing for me, it does for their fans but I just acknowledge its just not for me. My favourite pop song is Angels by Robbie Williams. That song was originally written in part for him by Ray Heffernan who wrote the first few verses and the verse melody of the song for his dead son. It is an Irish saying that if a child is born he is born an Angel, and that is a hope for many people in life to one day be touched by their loved ones again. This is my idea of meaning in pop songs, others may not agree with it but at the end of the day songs have different meanings to different people.

ItsAWindUp

Ah yes, the music snobs. Reminds me of all the idiotic comments regarding Beyonce headlining at Glastonbury last year, every moron under the sun deriding the fact that pop had no place at Glastonbury and other such rubbish. And what did she do? She absolutely blew the place apart! You should never not listen to a song or artist purely due to their genre, you are doing yourself a massive disservice.

Android 666

I think the main point should be, if you're going to post on a forum about your musical tastes, don't be too precious. Accept that not everyone thinks the sun shines out of the behind of your favourite band like you do and that there are probably a lot of people willing to write a couple of lines detailing why they are a bunch of poo. It'll be easy enough to tell who is giving an informed and educated opinion and who's not. Undoubtedly there are plenty of music snobs out there but are you really that concerned by what they think of your musical tastes? Are their opinions going to change yours?

If someone says to me 'I think xyz are ker-rappp!' and I enjoy their music that's not going to make any impact on me listening to that band. If on the other someone says 'Oh you like xyz? You'll probably like abc and def as well...', I'm going to be more inclined to listen to their opinion.

That said, it's good to let loose every once and a while and have a bit of an argument about the merits of a band. If no one takes it too seriously you can have a bit of a laugh about it. It all goes back to not being too precious...

Jimmy Iovine

lordgoat wrote: »

For me, music has to mean something, it has to make you feel something. Be that a catchy pop tune with a great drum beat or lyrics that genuinely say something to not just me, but the world in general. And everything that falls in between.

That's exactly it I think. I'm a bit of a mystery in that I can't get involved in much of the 'popular' music of today that is aimed at my generation, but I can get totally engrossed in the lives and antics of black men in America.

Often time I don't think about the message or even the lyrics. I can fixate myself on one song on the basis of the delivery of the song, the beat of the instrumental or the flow of the rapper.

Then other times I can see the message behind the song and I become hooked on it and generally I can't let go.

El Pr0n wrote: »

I've got a kind of maybe controversial idea here, wondering if anyone agrees with me. If you listen to lots more music than someone, if your musical net is broader or more developed or more experience, then you should have a more valid opinion right?

As I see it there are some people that listen to the same album over and over. They take nothing in and are content with that.

There are others that listen to 20-30 new songs a day. They may also take none of it in, as a result of the sheer volume of songs on offer.

If you look somewhere in the middle of the two extremes you should find the perfect listener. The one who listens to all genres with an open mind, takes all of the lyrical content in, understands why one song sounds sadder/happier than another, can recognise one song as being better than another and so on.

I don't think you will find that listener at all but even they shouldn't really be said to have a more valid opinion. I think that they have a more honest and informed opinion, that is neither right nor wrong.

karaokeman wrote: »

I can't stand Justin Bieber and think he's a choir singer at best

That is an insult to choir singers all over the world. Bieber would not hold a candle to the the majority of them talent-wise. They don't have the sales or publicity he does and never will, but they are better singers than him, no doubt.

viadah

Musical snobbery makes you feel like you're vicariously part of something, gives you an identity and makes you feel special. It's a thorough waste of time but some people need that in their lives. It takes a particular kind of mind to exclude and hate certain things or views that don't conform to their own aesthetic or personal ideals. It's the same kind of thinking that allows for racism, misogyny or homophobia.

karaokeman

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

That's exactly it I think. I'm a bit of a mystery in that I can't get involved in much of the 'popular' music of today that is aimed at my generation, but I can get totally engrossed in the lives and antics of black men in America.

Often time I don't think about the message or even the lyrics. I can fixate myself on one song on the basis of the delivery of the song, the beat of the instrumental or the flow of the rapper.

Then other times I can see the message behind the song and I become hooked on it and generally I can't let go.

I generally go for meaning of a song but I can enjoy the production etc of a song from time to time too.

For a guitar solo I can enjoy Jimi Hendrix's cover of Bob Dylan's All Along The Watchtower. Hendrix as some here should know was always well ahead of his time. That song has four distinct solo sections, each recorded separately and they were all planned well in advance before Hendrix went to the studio to record that track. Though I do find Dylan quite overrated lyrically at times I do like what Hendrix did with his version musically as opposed to Dylan's.

For drum's I would recommend Michael Jackson's Beat It for anyone who is still a fan of No Doubt's Hella Good or S Club 7's Don't Stop Movin. This is something that a lot of pop songs like the latter two have tried to replicate over the year's but in the case of Michael Jackson you cannot beat the original.

There are also many great piano songs like Jerry Lee Lewis' Great Balls of Fire, Take That's A Million Love Songs, Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody, Guns 'n' Roses' November Rain, The Boomtown Rats I Don't Like Mondays, Brahm's Hungarian Dance and lets not forget Coldplay's Clocks.

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

As I see it there are some people that listen to the same album over and over. They take nothing in and are content with that.

There are others that listen to 20-30 new songs a day. They may also take none of it in, as a result of the sheer volume of songs on offer.

If you look somewhere in the middle of the two extremes you should find the perfect listener. The one who listens to all genres with an open mind, takes all of the lyrical content in, understands why one song sounds sadder/happier than another, can recognise one song as being better than another and so on.

I don't think you will find that listener at all but even they shouldn't really be said to have a more valid opinion. I think that they have a more honest and informed opinion, that is neither right nor wrong.

Agree with this. Only album I would listen to over and over again is Jimmy MacCarthy's The Song of The Singing Horseman, he's my favourite songwriter/musician and that debut album was his masterpiece.

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

That is an insult to choir singers all over the world. Bieber would not hold a candle to the the majority of them talent-wise. They don't have the sales or publicity he does and never will, but they are better singers than him, no doubt.

I think you misunderstood my line here. I said Bieber was a choir singer at best. That should mean he would have the potential to be a good choir singer with practice. Its the same as when Stereophonics haters say Stereophonics are a pub band at best, they obviously think they are worse but are giving the limit to what that band could do.

Android 666

viadah wrote: »

Musical snobbery makes you feel like you're vicariously part of something, gives you an identity and makes you feel special. It's a thorough waste of time but some people need that in their lives. It takes a particular kind of mind to exclude and hate certain things or views that don't conform to their own aesthetic or personal ideals. It's the same kind of thinking that allows for racism, misogyny or homophobia.

Yes, I always felt too that musical snobbery was as much a scourge to society as racism, misogyny and homophobia

ntlbell

Technocentral wrote: »

Stupid question. If your passionate about something like music you tend to have (rightly) strong opinions about what is good and what is shiite and are liable to express your views forthrightly, especially when it comes to crap like Coldplay.

There's a huge difference in expressing an educated/passionate opinion with the intention of expressing that view or potentially educating who you're discussing that opinion with.

When someone says to me something is "crap" and can't string a few sentences together to explain why well I mean, who's going to waste their time listening to such an idiot?

viadah

Android 666 wrote: »

Yes, I always felt too that musical snobbery was as much a scourge to society as racism, misogyny and homophobia

I never said that. It's the same kind of thinking that allows for it, doesn't put it on the same level. I'm sure Hitler disliked other things besides Jews.

Android 666

viadah wrote: »

I never said that. It's the same kind of thinking that allows for it, doesn't put it on the same level. I'm sure Hitler disliked other things besides Jews.

Jesus, it didn't take long to get to Godwin's Law, did it?

Jimmy Iovine

karaokeman wrote: »

I think you misunderstood my line here. I said Bieber was a choir singer at best. That should mean he would have the potential to be a good choir singer with practice. Its the same as when Stereophonics haters say Stereophonics are a pub band at best, they obviously think they are worse but are giving the limit to what that band could do.

Ah right. Couldn't tell you. All depends on his range of singing and his technique. Can't tell you what that is like because thankfully I don't subject myself to his music.

Android 666 wrote: »

Jesus, it didn't take long to get to Godwin's Law, did it?

Ha it really is one of the most amazing things. How Hitler/Nazis pop up in almost every long thread or discussion. We got it in just over 20 posts on a topic completely opposite to Hitler, that must be a record.

viadah

Android 666 wrote: »

Jesus, it didn't take long to get to Godwin's Law, did it?

That's your fault, my statement needed some Lebensraum.

Android 666

viadah wrote: »

That's your fault, my statement needed some Lebensraum.

How's that my fault? I wasn't the one to put musical snobbery in the same sentence as racism, misogyny and homophobia. You said:

It takes a particular kind of mind to exclude and hate certain things or views that don't conform to their own aesthetic or personal ideals.

But tbh, if you express a strong opinion on anything, be it music, art or politics, then you are going to be of this mindset to some degree or other. It's not something particular to one type of person. If I say I hate the Church's stance on contraception in Africa, does that make me as bad as hating someone for the colour of their skin? According to you they come from the same place, right?

Music snobbery is bandied about the same way as Irish begrudgery is. There are music snobs (just like there's art snobs and food snobs) and there are Irish begrudgers but that doesn't automatically mean that someone who expresses an opinion on music or their society is a snob or begrudger but it is a very easy to make a discussion very one sided by accusing some one of either of these two things.

viadah

Seeing the church's stance on contraception as bad is an idea based on common sense, seeing the colour of someone's skin as making them in any way lessened is not. One has a solid argument, the other doesn't. If someone hates a certain type of music, or feels their musical interest deserves a higher plain, what reasonable argument can they use? While being snobbish in musical taste is not on a par with racism, it comes from an unreasonable point of view, as does racism, in my opinion.

Android 666

viadah wrote: »

Seeing the church's stance on contraception as bad is an idea based on common sense, seeing the colour of someone's skin as making them in any way lessened is not. One has a solid argument, the other doesn't. If someone hates a certain type of music, or feels their musical interest deserves a higher plain, what reasonable argument can they use? While being snobbish in musical taste is not on a par with racism, it comes from an unreasonable point of view, as does racism, in my opinion.

If you're a devout follower of the Catholic Church then the church's stance will be common sense to you.

I'd actually say that true music snobbery is based on a more thought out point of view than most people's music tastes and that's actually what makes it more obnoxious. The true music snob will base their opinion on what they should like on what is considered cool by all the right websites and publications rather than basing it on what they actually like themselves.

A person saying that they hate all hip hop because what they've heard of it is crap isn't a snob in my opinion, they are being a bit of ignoramus. The thing is personal preference and time are going to play a factor in what you're going to listen to. I like some hip hop but tbh I'm not going to listen to a lot of it because there are other things I prefer to listen to. Same with any of genre of music I don't listen to on a regular basis.

The thing that does bug me though is if you express a negative opinion about a band you get 'you obviously haven't listened to all of their songs' argument. If I'm basing that opinion on singles the band have released, it is not my fault that the band released poor singles and as singles are usually an indicator of an album, if they are bad most people aren't going to invest the time in listening to the rest of the album to uncover the 'gems'.

One last thing, how come it is snobby if let's say a Radiohead fan disses Oasis but it isn't if it's the other way around?

viadah

Being a devout follower of the Catholic Church is another unreasonable ideal, you're into blind faith which can be related to dismissal of genres because you believe them to be inferior to your own taste, but there's no point in going into any kind of theological debate here and I really should be making a point at some stage.

The point is, musical snobbery is unreasonable and self defeating from my own experience. When I was 18 I listened to nothing but metal, everything else was beneath me, all ****. Two things happened - I heard Aphex Twin's 'Come to Daddy' and found myself wondering if I was allowed listen to it because it wasn't metal - which was one of the most retarded things I ever thought - and a workmate said simply 'listen to Billy Bragg. If you don't like him, you don't like him, but you can't say it's just **** without having a valid reason for saying so'. So in ceasing to think in unreasonable ways with regards to music, I opened up new avenues for myself, expanded my taste in music and got to hear music over the years that I love that a snobbish attitude would have denied me. There is no point to musical snobbery, it's close-mindedness that could stand in the way of personal evolution.

As for the Radiohead thing, as you said certain folk subscribe to certain popular opinions, and Radiohead are on a societal pedestal and perceived as a more cerebral form of music, whereas Oasis occupy a more earthy societal level if you will. I don't see true snobbery as you described as being more thought out in terms of it being a cynical popularity ploy, rather as a willful expression of ignorance masked by personal preference.

karaokeman

Android 666 wrote: »

I'd actually say that true music snobbery is based on a more thought out point of view than most people's music tastes and that's actually what makes it more obnoxious. The true music snob will base their opinion on what they should like on what is considered cool by all the right websites and publications rather than basing it on what they actually like themselves.

Everyone has their own definition of a music snob. Its kind of a general thing because music is the one hobby you will always get a lot of subjectivity. There are of course people who only look to the charts for good music and who just copy their tastes based on what their friends are downloading and what you would hear from the top 30 on Spin1038. If a person who criticises that group of music fans is considered a music snob in your opinion, I think that would be the common definition of a music snob.

I am not like that how I go about finding music is this, I read the news and anything that comes up I look it up. When Noel Gallagher released The Death of You and Me I saw the press release and then I looked up the video when it was released. And likewise when an album comes out it will leak to youtube and if I like it I will buy the physical copy.

Android 666 wrote: »

A person saying that they hate all hip hop because what they've heard of it is crap isn't a snob in my opinion, they are being a bit of ignoramus. The thing is personal preference and time are going to play a factor in what you're going to listen to. I like some hip hop but tbh I'm not going to listen to a lot of it because there are other things I prefer to listen to. Same with any of genre of music I don't listen to on a regular basis.

Well it all depends on how much hip hop they have heard doesn't it? I don't listen to a lot of hip hop mainstream or otherwise but I have heard a few good tunes that would not necessarily be radio-popular by Irish standards.

Android 666 wrote: »

The thing that does bug me though is if you express a negative opinion about a band you get 'you obviously haven't listened to all of their songs' argument. If I'm basing that opinion on singles the band have released, it is not my fault that the band released poor singles and as singles are usually an indicator of an album, if they are bad most people aren't going to invest the time in listening to the rest of the album to uncover the 'gems'.

Plenty of bands have 'gems' that are not singles off an album.

Coldplay have Death and All His Friends off Viva la Vida or Death and All His Friends. I would absolutely recommend it for any Coldplay fan or even a newbie to Coldplay's music, may not be a promotional piece but the epic progression with Chris' vocals make it a modern masterpiece.

Oasis have Cast No Shadow off (Whats the Story) Morning Glory. Granted it will never be as famous as Wonderwall, it is a great anthemic tune as what many diehards would generally expect from Oasis.

Red Hot Chili Peppers have The Power of Equality, a song thats not just a song but a way of life off Blood Sugar Sex Magik.

Then you have Take That's Underground Machine, The Script's Rusty Halo, The Killers Everything Will Be Alright I could go on but I've done enough for now.

Android 666 wrote: »

One last thing, how come it is snobby if let's say a Radiohead fan disses Oasis but it isn't if it's the other way around?

Again it depends on how you define a music snob.

In the usual case which should be Radiohead dissing Oasis its because Oasis are more mainstream/ have sold more records worldwide and have a lot more radio hits. A music snob IMO would be a person who thinks just because an Oasis fan loves Don't Look Back In Anger its because they would hear that song on the radio and genuinely haven't heard all of (Whats the Story) Morning Glory.

Android 666

viadah wrote: »

Being a devout follower of the Catholic Church is another unreasonable ideal, you're into blind faith which can be related to dismissal of genres because you believe them to be inferior to your own taste, but there's no point in going into any kind of theological debate here and I really should be making a point at some stage.

The point is, musical snobbery is unreasonable and self defeating from my own experience. When I was 18 I listened to nothing but metal, everything else was beneath me, all ****. Two things happened - I heard Aphex Twin's 'Come to Daddy' and found myself wondering if I was allowed listen to it because it wasn't metal - which was one of the most retarded things I ever thought - and a workmate said simply 'listen to Billy Bragg. If you don't like him, you don't like him, but you can't say it's just **** without having a valid reason for saying so'. So in ceasing to think in unreasonable ways with regards to music, I opened up new avenues for myself, expanded my taste in music and got to hear music over the years that I love that a snobbish attitude would have denied me. There is no point to musical snobbery, it's close-mindedness that could stand in the way of personal evolution.

As for the Radiohead thing, as you said certain folk subscribe to certain popular opinions, and Radiohead are on a societal pedestal and perceived as a more cerebral form of music, whereas Oasis occupy a more earthy societal level if you will. I don't see true snobbery as you described as being more thought out in terms of it being a cynical popularity ploy, rather as a willful expression of ignorance masked by personal preference.

I wouldn't call the way you acted as a teenager snobbish, it was merely symptomatic of the tribal nature of the adolescent mind. Most people grow out of that.

According to wikipedia…

Snobbery appears when elements of culture are perceived as belonging to an aristocracy or elite, and some people (the snobs) feel that the mere adoption of the fashion and tastes of the elite or aristocracy is sufficient to include someone in the elites, upper classes or aristocracy.

So someone dismissing genres because they only listen to metal or rap is not imo being a snob, just merely being ignorant. A person who gets their musical cues from the likes of pitchfork, because of its supposed intellectual superiority to other websites and magazines, and is condescending and dismissive of anything outside that sphere is a snob.

Rigsby

I have being thinking about the general topic of this thread and IMO if a person really has a passion for and really loves the music they listen to, then they wont take offence, but actually feel sorry for the "snob" who is criticising it.

viadah

I'd still place snobbery alongside ignorance or at least a form of ignorance. I fell into the same kind of attitude briefly in the following years during my 'hardcore' phase, but while I see it in this manner, I can still see the point you make regarding snobbery and ignorance being seen as two differing states. One thing is evident regardless - neither snobbery nor ignorance are laudable states of mind.

Android 666

viadah wrote: »

One thing is evident regardless - neither snobbery nor ignorance are laudable states of mind.

Agreed

lordgoat

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

That's exactly it I think. I'm a bit of a mystery in that I can't get involved in much of the 'popular' music of today that is aimed at my generation, but I can get totally engrossed in the lives and antics of black men in America.

Often time I don't think about the message or even the lyrics. I can fixate myself on one song on the basis of the delivery of the song, the beat of the instrumental or the flow of the rapper.

check out Blu (and Exile) if you don't know em.

Jimmy Iovine

lordgoat wrote: »

check out Blu (and Exile) if you don't know em.

I've been on that ish for months now. Stumbled across them one day on here. I think someone put up a video and I instantly went and downloaded "Below the Heavens". They have everything that I mentioned above. They've some new material coming out soon as well. Patiently waiting for it.

"So(ul) Amazing" has everything in it. Class drums, sick beat and a dope as **** flow. Superb song.

It's the kind of an album that when I heard it it made me tingle inside just like seeing Messi or Rooney pull off an effortlessly amazing trick. It doesn't happen all that often but having to trawl through the other shíte and listen to the people that spout Daily Mail influenced opinions on football makes it all the more special.

lordgoat

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

I've been on that ish for months now. Stumbled across them one day on here. I think someone put up a video and I instantly went and downloaded "Below the Heavens". They have everything that I mentioned above. They've some new material coming out soon as well. Patiently waiting for it.

"So(ul) Amazing" has everything in it. Class drums, sick beat and a dope as **** flow. Superb song.

It's the kind of an album that when I heard it it made me tingle inside just like seeing Messi or Rooney pull off an effortlessly amazing trick. It doesn't happen all that often but having to trawl through the other shíte and listen to the people that spout Daily Mail influenced opinions on football makes it all the more special.

Ya i got them from the HipHop forum about a year ago. Loved that album. NoYork is worth listening too.

I actually said on twitter earlier that a Pirlo pass was so good it made me stand up and applaud it. It's little moments like that (and in songs) that are what it's all about for me. You know it when it happens and have the acumen to recognise it and take note. S hit's important aiight!

efb

Needing to feel superior is a sign of low self esteem - being happy without the approval of others is high self esteem

Jimmy Iovine

lordgoat wrote: »

Ya i got them from the HipHop forum about a year ago. Loved that album. NoYork is worth listening too.

I actually said on twitter earlier that a Pirlo pass was so good it made me stand up and applaud it. It's little moments like that (and in songs) that are what it's all about for me. You know it when it happens and have the acumen to recognise it and take note. S hit's important aiight!

I stood up and applauded Michael Carrick's pass against Bolton two weeks ago. One of the best that I've seen in a long time.

You should check out "Audition" by P.O.S. It's full of stand up and applaud moments.

nyarlothothep

I don't care for so called torch bearing bands like Tool or Mastodon, or Autechre, Aphex Twin or whatever. I've heard them, I've been bored by them, so I would be subjected to "received wisdom" and its pretty much obsolete in my mind because there are no musical sacred cows or artists that I should respect because a certain group happens to like them, it tends the way of musical heirarchy and I'm generally against heirarchy in all its manifestations within humanity for the consequences which result from it. That said sh1t music in a nightclub is alienating, so meh, both sides of the coin are just as bad as each other. Saying a band/artist is sh1t is ok however. Saying someone needs to change their musical taste to conform to your own isn't.

Kold

I think most of the musical snobbery incidents are caused by people being butthurt that someone thinks that their music sucks. They then go off into rants about 'subjectiveness' whilst ignoring the fact that it entitles people to subjectively think that their music sucks.

Also, how overrated was that Carrick pass? I prefer old Carrick, before he was at United. ****in casuals.

karaokeman

Kold wrote: »

I think most of the musical snobbery incidents are caused by people being butthurt that someone thinks that their music sucks. They then go off into rants about 'subjectiveness' whilst ignoring the fact that it entitles people to subjectively think that their music sucks.

I disagree, I think the whole "music is subjective" argument is used because if you say you like a band that is hugely looked down upon, people will make you feel bad about it.

I stated at the start of this thread that Coldplay and U2 fans are frowned upon. I listen to both and when I get arguments like "oh you listen to music for people who don't like music" I counter that with the subjective argument that a lot of posters here get worked up about.

Having said that and while I may not be a music snob by means of the anti-Coldplay/U2 fans argument I do enjoy to force my music upon others.

Like so.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTqUqP3XAM4

lordgoat

karaokeman wrote: »

I disagree, I think the whole "music is subjective" argument is used because if you say you like a band that is hugely looked down upon, people will make you feel bad about it.

I stated at the start of this thread that Coldplay and U2 fans are frowned upon. I listen to both and when I get arguments like "oh you listen to music for people who don't like music" I counter that with the subjective argument that a lot of posters here get worked up about.

Having said that and while I may not be a music snob by means of the anti-Coldplay/U2 fans argument I do enjoy to force my music upon others.

Like so.....

People make you feel bad about shi.t only if you let them. It's not their fault that they don't think what you listen to is awful. It's neither yours for liking it.

I agree with Kold.

The song you quoted is terrible. This doesn't make me a snob. I formed an opinon from listening to it.

It's derivative and sounds like a bad ball room singer. Although i wouldn't know what a good ball room singer is. It reminded me of Vic Reeves on Shooting stars. Also the bit of the song at 1.15 and also at 2:39 and 3:34 was robbed by him or from him, it's in some crappy boybands song and it's wrecking my head. Any help?

Also the least said about the lyrics and the awful guitar solo the better.

karaokeman

lordgoat wrote: »

People make you feel bad about shi.t only if you let them. It's not their fault that they don't think what you listen to is awful. It's neither yours for liking it.

I agree with Kold.

The song you quoted is terrible. This doesn't make me a snob. I formed an opinon from listening to it.

It's derivative and sounds like a bad ball room singer. Although i wouldn't know what a good ball room singer is. It reminded me of Vic Reeves on Shooting stars. Also the bit of the song at 1.15 and also at 2:39 and 3:34 was robbed by him or from him, it's in some crappy boybands song and it's wrecking my head. Any help?

Also the least said about the lyrics and the awful guitar solo the better.

Lordgoat thanks for listening to my video.

I respect you have your own opinion, mine is just different seen as how I posted it as a recommendation.

I generally don't expect posters will view videos like the one I posted, mainly because the artist is not very well known but you listened and formed an opinion on that basis so I won't complain about that.

Least you know Coldplay/U2/Muse etc. are just music for my ears. I know others who like them too, so again that falls into the "music is subjective" argument.

I don't follow football so I can't comment on the latter part of Kold's post.

I listened to the parts you named for the bits you felt were ripped off by some boyband(s). Can't help you with those bits but I assume it is something from the 70s like the Bee Gees or some other band like that because this song is from 1981. I doubt it was stolen from him by any modern pop bands seen as how this song is anything but mainstream.

Android 666

lordgoat wrote: »

Also the bit of the song at 1.15 and also at 2:39 and 3:34 was robbed by him or from him, it's in some crappy boybands song and it's wrecking my head. Any help?

Could this be magic by Take That?

karaokeman

Android 666 wrote: »

Could this be magic by Take That?

I'm guessing you mean the Adrienne Anderson and Barry Manilow version (1973) seen as how its the original and pre-dates the song I quoted (1981).

Android 666

karaokeman wrote: »

I'm guessing you mean the Adrienne Anderson and Barry Manilow version (1973) seen as how its the original and pre-dates the song I quoted (1981).

lordgoat had said about a boyband so I wasn't being too pedantic about it.

lordgoat

Android 666 wrote: »

lordgoat had said about a boyband so I wasn't being too pedantic about it.

Android, shame on both of us for knowing that. But yep that's what i was thinking of.