non-religious alternatives

Branoic

My wife and I are anti-Catholic Church, and were always determined that we wouldn't have our child christened or baptised. We've no problem with religion as a whole, but we want to leave it until the child is older and can make their own mind up.

Both sets of our parents know about our feelings and accept it, but we haven't really discussed it with anyone else or looked into the practicalities of what it means. And now we have our first child due in 3 months and we're suddenly revisiting this topic.

My wife was talking to her granny the other day - very traditional elderly matriarchal figure, the head of a very large extended family and in to everyone's business. She mentioned something about going to a butchers for us now and booking the ham for the christening! :eek: Wife said, "Er, we're not going to be having a christening". Granny kinda looked at her in shock and said, "don't be silly, of course you'll be having a christening!" and that was the end of that conversation!

Anyway, the episode has focused us back on the topic again and we're curious to find out the stories of any other parents going down the same route as ourselves - things like, what are the alternatives to a christening / baptism if you still want to have some sort of special family occassion? what are the options for school if the child isn't catholic? What sort of other obsticles did you come up against? For parents of older children, was your child bullied and felt left out around communion / confirmation times etc?

Basically, now that the reality of having a child is upon us, we're wondering if our moral standpoint will lead to an unnecessarily difficult life for our child and if we should just give in and get it christened / baptised (even though it would really grate against my beliefs)?

January

Naming ceremony... and Educate Together school. Problem solved...

KazDub

Why don't you have a look at the Unitarian church in Dublin, if it's anywhere near you. You can have a child 'welcoming' ceremony.

http://www.dublinunitarianchurch.org/welcomings/

It'll keep the religious fuddy-duddys relatively happy while giving everyone a nice, celebratory day out.

Ellis Dee

Branoic wrote: »

My wife and I are anti-Catholic Church, and were always determined that we wouldn't have our child christened or baptised. We've no problem with religion as a whole, but we want to leave it until the child is older and can make their own mind up.

That sounds like the fairest option and also the most respectful of the child's right to make important decisions itself when it is old enough to.

Branoic wrote: »

Both sets of our parents know about our feelings and accept it, but we haven't really discussed it with anyone else or looked into the practicalities of what it means. And now we have our first child due in 3 months and we're suddenly revisiting this topic.

I don't really see any need to revisit the topic. It has been discussed with your parents and they accept it. It's no one else's business.

Branoic wrote: »

My wife was talking to her granny the other day - very traditional elderly matriarchal figure, the head of a very large extended family and in to everyone's business. She mentioned something about going to a butchers for us now and booking the ham for the christening! :eek: Wife said, "Er, we're not going to be having a christening". Granny kinda looked at her in shock and said, "don't be silly, of course you'll be having a christening!" and that was the end of that conversation!

It's never too late for a person to learn that she can't stick her nose into people's lives like that. When I married a foreign woman, who wasn't Catholic, in a civil service in Helsinki and returned to Ireland soon after that, the elderly craw-thumping, altar-eating, bossy matriarchial figure in my family (there's one in every family, isn't there!) took me aside and demanded to know: "Is she going to turn?" I replied: "Into what, for fcuks sake? She suits me the way she is!", and that was the end of that.

Branoic wrote: »

Anyway, the episode has focused us back on the topic again and we're curious to find out the stories of any other parents going down the same route as ourselves - things like, what are the alternatives to a christening / baptism if you still want to have some sort of special family occassion? what are the options for school if the child isn't catholic? What sort of other obsticles did you come up against? For parents of older children, was your child bullied and felt left out around communion / confirmation times etc?

We never had any kind of ceremony, but what's wrong with just inviting family and friends round to a "presenting the heir" ceremony of some kind or other? In your own home if you have the space, or in a rented function room somewhere.

If children are bullied, it's the bullies' fault, not yours or your child's. What really matters to children around communion / confirmation time is the presents and money they get. And there's nothing to stop you arranging a do for your child that will make the other little christians green with envy.:D

Branoic wrote: »

Basically, now that the reality of having a child is upon us, we're wondering if our moral standpoint will lead to an unnecessarily difficult life for our child and if we should just give in and get it christened / baptised (even though it would really grate against my beliefs)?

I suppose I had it easy in that my children grew up and went to school in Finland and therefore religion never impinged even remotely on our lives. But I would not have allowed it to even if anyone had attempted it, and it can only get easier in Ireland as time goes by.

Do not give in. If people outside your nuclear family have a problem with your lifestyle or how you bring up your child, that's their problem and hangup and not yours.

Good luck with your pregnancy, by the way.:)

LittleBook

Luckily my daughter did her primary schooling in France so religion wasn't an issue. By the time she got to secondary school (in Ireland) she was well able to participate in the obligatory religion classes without being indoctrinated. Whatever happens now is up to her.

Sorry, not much help but there's an Atheism & Agnosticism board here which you might find informative and supportive as well.

Branoic

Thanks, will look into the Unitarian welcoming ceremony, seems like it might be a good option.

There are no Educate Together schools near us. We live in Arklow and the closest is in Gorey - don't know what their catchment area size is like. Have sent them an email enquiring, but if anyone else has info on it that'd be great.

Orion

ET schools have no catchment area. Anyone can apply from anywhere.

Check out the Humanist society. They can officiate at a humanist naming ceremony or you can just organise your own - their book has some sample ones in it. tbh it's something we meant to do with ours but never actually did.

Our two aren't christened either and they get on fine. Their best friend is the daughter of a highly religious couple and none of the give a damn - kids are a lot more understanding about things like this than some adults.

Ayla

A couple things:

1) Although we're agnostic we had our first christened in the Church of Ireland to appease the family. We really liked the minister & it was a very personal & private ceremony (not during a service, but instead just us standing around at the back of the church). That said, we both felt ill that we had surrendered our own personal beliefs and "sold out" just to keep everyone else happy. Not the ideals that we'd want to teach our children. So when our second child came around we just avoided the entire situation. No christening and no naming ceremony because doing so would almost be like a slap in the face & far too awkward for the family (who doesn't really like doing anything out of the norm). If anyone had anything to say they didn't say it to us.

2) You said in your post that you're anti-Catholic church. Are you anti-Catholic or anti-religion? If you're only anti-Catholic, would a ceremony in another denomination be a possiblity? (I know, easy to say as a Yank who's moved to Ireland & thus doesn't get all this denomination stuff, but just putting it out there as a possible compromise?)

Sleepy

Our eldest was baptised in a Catholic church (at the age of 3!) because his father wanted it to placate his family. He attends a COI school and can make his own mind up about religion when he's old enough to.

Our youngest wasn't baptised and won't be. She'll attend the same primary school as her brother and we'll worry about secondary schools when the time comes. God help any child that tries to bully her, she's beaten the daylights out of her older brother when provoked enough so I don't have any fear for her in a playground!

annamcmahon

We had a naming ceremony in the Unitarian Church last year for our daughter. It was lovely, spiritual but not religious and everything was done for lovely reasons. I'd highly recommend it.

LittleBook

Branoic wrote: »

There are no Educate Together schools near us.

When my daughter was born there were no ET schools or non-religious options that I was aware of. I was talking to my father bemoaning this, I didn't want her to be indoctrinated, life isn't fair, yadda, yadda, yadda ... and he said to me: "You went to Catholic school for years and look how you turned out!"

The point is, where your children go to school does not determine their religion or lack of it.

gcgirl

Branoic wrote: »

Thanks, will look into the Unitarian welcoming ceremony, seems like it might be a good option.

There are no Educate Together schools near us. We live in Arklow and the closest is in Gorey - don't know what their catchment area size is like. Have sent them an email enquiring, but if anyone else has info on it that'd be great.

I have 2 kids in Wicklow educate together and it's brilliant, I know it's a couple of miles out of your way but I'd highly recommend it

gcgirl

LittleBook wrote: »

Branoic wrote: »

There are no Educate Together schools near us.

When my daughter was born there were no ET schools or non-religious options that I was aware of. I was talking to my father bemoaning this, I didn't want her to be indoctrinated, life isn't fair, yadda, yadda, yadda ... and he said to me: "You went to Catholic school for years and look how you turned out!"

The point is, where your children go to school does not determine their religion or lack of it.

But when it comes to communion and confirmation the kids are sucked in

Hobbitfeet

I'm due my baby today patiently waiting!!
We are not going to have baby christened we don't go to church or believe in Catholic church when child is old enough they can decide for themsleves. My OH is German and has officially left the RC Church there unfourtunetly the RC in Ireland will not allow you to officially leave and have your name taken from their register but if they did allow I would be doing it.
Don't let family bully or push you into doing something you don't want with your child.

Daisy M

My children are catholic and have/will go through all the ceremonies ect.
They go to our local national school which is obviously catholic. Just tp give you some feed back on how the children who are not catholic fit in. There are just 4 of them and they are of two other religions. There is no big deal when communion/confirmation time comes, they just arent doing it and thats it. The other children dont see this as a big deal. The children usually come to the communion/confirmation mass to see their friends and get a pic taken with them. Its really not something thats mentioned or focused on. I think they take part in religion in schools, not sure its not something I have ever asked about. From what I see the catholic children never take any heed of their religion been different. Sometimes my daughter will come home and tell me things about her friends religion and thats really as far as it goes.

Todays catholic teaching in national school seems to be based more on teaching right from wrong, it doesnt go over board apart from around the communion and confirmation period of which a non catholic child will not take part in.

To me and maybe I am wrong but I think parents of non religious or other religion children worry too much about how their child will be perceived for been different religion wise. Kids dont take a lot of notice in this they see "mary/john" their friend not "mary/John" the atheist ect.

Branoic

LittleBook wrote: »

When my daughter was born there were no ET schools or non-religious options that I was aware of. I was talking to my father bemoaning this, I didn't want her to be indoctrinated, life isn't fair, yadda, yadda, yadda ... and he said to me: "You went to Catholic school for years and look how you turned out!"

The point is, where your children go to school does not determine their religion or lack of it.

Good sentiments, and ones I can appreciate - I went to a catholic school run by a religious order, and I no issues there or with my education.

Its not going to a catholic school that i'd be worried about, its more that by not being catholic, this may restrict the number of schools which will take the child on, some of which may be good solid schools, but wouldn't take on our kid on grounds of religion.

Not sure if that's even done these days with equality rules and all that.

Branoic

Ayla wrote: »

A couple things:

2) You said in your post that you're anti-Catholic church. Are you anti-Catholic or anti-religion? If you're only anti-Catholic, would a ceremony in another denomination be a possiblity? (I know, easy to say as a Yank who's moved to Ireland & thus doesn't get all this denomination stuff, but just putting it out there as a possible compromise?)

not exactly anti-religious, just anti-Church. We differ slightly on our levels - my wife wouldn't mind some type of Christian element, whereas I don't believe in Christian theology at all, Catholic or not, but I wouldn't mind some mild references to it.

That's why I think the Unitarian option may seem like the best one so far. The main thing is the idea of childhood indoctrination which I want to avoid. Not to get into any religious debates with anyone here, but basically I feel the Church has been abusing its position and power for over 1500 years, and the reason its just been let on with it is because of their "get them in while they're young" policy of infant baptism, and you then can't ever leave! They even changed canon law to remove the option of a formal defection, so you can't ever officially leave the Church.

How Strange

Hopefully the labour party will have succeeded in getting some of the schools secularised by the time our babies are school going age.

We've enrolled our son in three Educate Together schools in our area. I really don't want him going to a mainstream school as I'm vehemently opposed to the use of school hours to teach religion and preparing children for communion and confirmation.

He isn't and he won't be christened by us and I suppose the only problem would be if we moved to a rural area and had to put him in a Mainstream school and he wanted to make his communion to fit in. That's the reason we'll most likely stay in Dublin because we have choice in terms of his education.

Hobbitfeet

My younger brother now 13 is not baptised. He went to a very small rural primary school 2 teachers for the whole school. He didn't have any problems when communion and confirmation came around he just didn't participate he didn't seem to feel left out or different because of it

Orion

How Strange wrote: »

We've enrolled our son in three Educate Together schools in our area. I really don't want him going to a mainstream school as I'm vehemently opposed to the use of school hours to teach religion

Just to clarify ET schools teach religion too. They have to. The primary school curriculum mandates 2 hours per week of religion. However, ET schools do religious education about all religions instead of religious instruction in one.

ET schools are just as mainstream as any other. All other aspects of the curriculum are exactly the same as denominational schools. The primary school curriculum is not different for each patron.

How Strange wrote: »

Hopefully the labour party will have succeeded in getting some of the schools secularised by the time our babies are school going age.

Don't count on secularisation. Labour are pushing the VEC model and while those schools may be multidenominational they still have (mostly catholic) chaplains - go figure.

Kildrought

leave it until the child is older and can make their own mind up

This is the bit I never understand...I'm an atheist, I have strong values in regards to society, community, self-help etc., and my children were brought up with those values.

They may choose to reject them in the future now they are adults, but they couldn't have chosen to reject it if they didn't know about the values in the first place.

Choosing not to teach your children anything about what you value and believe in (be that a deity or not) doesn't seem like a good model of parenting to me.

Branoic

Kildrought wrote: »

Choosing not to teach your children anything about what you value and believe in (be that a deity or not) doesn't seem like a good model of parenting to me.

Where did I say that the child wasn't going to be taught any values or morals?

The child will (hopefully)have a very well rounded moral education at our hands, and in addition to whatever religious education they receive at school will also get additional from me, as world religions etc is an area that interests me.

ElleEm

I wasn't raised as Catholic, but went to Catholic schools.
I just sat the religion/ communion/ confirmation bits out.
Don't worry about your kids fitting in, or being outcasts.
We're lucky in that Ireland is becoming so multicultural. It is less strange when a child does not partake in religion in schools.

PLEASE don't baptise your child into a religion that you don't agree with. Although your child can, in theory, "make up their own mind later in life", if they are baptised into the Catholic Church, they can never leave.

Be assertive and don't allow yourselves to be bullied into doing something just cos it's easier than the agro.

LittleBook

gcgirl wrote: »

But when it comes to communion and confirmation the kids are sucked in

Not necessarily

Ellis Dee wrote: »

What really matters to children around communion / confirmation time is the presents and money they get. And there's nothing to stop you arranging a do for your child that will make the other little christians green with envy.:D

But my point is not to despair if you find yourself with few or no other options than the local catholic school. It could still be a good school even if there is a system of religious instruction rather than religious education.

Daisy M

I am beginning to form the opinion that we have actually taken a step backwards when it comes to religious education in our schools. When I was in school both national and secondary if a child was not catholic they did not take part in religion at all. They either went off to study, another classroom or sat and did other work themselves. Now it doesnt matter which school your child goes to, they have to take part in some form of RE. My son in secondary school has to do RE and has to sit a juniorcert test for the same. It is a really hard subject and requires quiet a bit of study and he usually barely scrapes a c or a d in it. I was shocked when I found this out and again I will remind you I am a catholic and so are my children but I cant believe that in this day and age we have to allow our children RE. I dont mind the class aspect of it but testing on it to me is crazy. Teenagers are under enough pressure with out adding this to the mix. When I went to the same school it was a convent and we had class teats no exams unless it was chosen as a LC subject.

Sleepy

My kids will be told to fail it at will tbh.

Branoic

Daisy M wrote: »

I am beginning to form the opinion that we have actually taken a step backwards when it comes to religious education in our schools. When I was in school both national and secondary if a child was not catholic they did not take part in religion at all. They either went off to study, another classroom or sat and did other work themselves. Now it doesnt matter which school your child goes to, they have to take part in some form of RE. My son in secondary school has to do RE and has to sit a juniorcert test for the same. It is a really hard subject and requires quiet a bit of study and he usually barely scrapes a c or a d in it. I was shocked when I found this out and again I will remind you I am a catholic and so are my children but I cant believe that in this day and age we have to allow our children RE. I dont mind the class aspect of it but testing on it to me is crazy. Teenagers are under enough pressure with out adding this to the mix. When I went to the same school it was a convent and we had class teats no exams unless it was chosen as a LC subject.

I actually don't have a problem with RE and think that it's a very important topic of study - as long as its equal and inclusive and not indoctrination into one faith. Particularly is primary and for junior cert I don't think the emphasis should be so heavily weighted to the traditional core academic subjects. An education should be about much wider areas - and as religion is such a massive part of society an culture all over the world, I think taking the study of it as an objective subject can only be of benefit to children in teaching them about differences and tolerance etc.

Daisy M

Branoic wrote: »

I actually don't have a problem with RE and think that it's a very important topic of study - as long as its equal and inclusive and not indoctrination into one faith. Particularly is primary and for junior cert I don't think the emphasis should be so heavily weighted to the traditional core academic subjects. An education should be about much wider areas - and as religion is such a massive part of society an culture all over the world, I think taking the study of it as an objective subject can only be of benefit to children in teaching them about differences and tolerance etc.

I dont mind the teaching of it I mind the exam and the fact the class tests are pretty hard going. I think its great to learn about other religions but I am not fully sure that if someone is an atheist that they should not have a choice. It really is the exam not been a choice I have a problem with. It is an extremely hard subject and my sons teacher really takes it seriously.

Kildrought

RE and has to sit a juniorcert test for the same

To both mine and teachers' amusement, both my children picked up A grades in said exam!

liliq

+1 on naming ceremony and ET school (if possible).
There are starter groups for ET schools in a lot of areas as well, so even if there's none currently close to you, it could be worth a search as there might be a start up group trying to get one going

lazygal

Branoic wrote: »

Not sure if that's even done these days with equality rules and all that.

Schools are exempt from the Equal Status Act in religious aspects and can legally refuse a child in favour of one that subscribes to the ethos. Happens all the time in a local CofI school, Catholics or those of no faith are regularly turned away.

I would not be giving into the matriarch outlined here. The reason she's able to bulldoze her way through the family like this is because no one ever says no. My FIL can be quite difficult to deal with and often tries to lay down the law to his adult son and me, but I didn't marry the family, I married my husband, and we make our decisions on what's right for our family. What kind of message does it send to children to give into this kind of foot stamping bullying?

LittleBook

Kildrought wrote: »

To both mine and teachers' amusement, both my children picked up A grades in said exam!

Ha!! My daughter too!! :pac:

She's still obliged to take religion classes (during the leaving cert cycle) but since the exam itself isn't obligatory, all of the curriculum for the exam isn't covered. Her religion teacher suggested she take the extra classes (on Saturdays) and register to take the exam and we seriously considered it for a while ... an A is an A, right?

In the end she decided to focus on her preferred subjects.

How Strange

I've absolutely no problem with religion education which teaches an awareness and respect for all beliefs but I've got a serious problem with compulsory indoctrination in one religion and an educational system lacking in choice.
I'd rather avoid the mainstream school system for this reason.

unkel

Thank God* we have a choice now. None of my children are christened and they all are or will be in Educate Together national schools. The first ever Educate Together secondary school in Ireland is due to open the year after next right here in Lucan.

*only kiddin'

Sleepy

LittleBook wrote: »

Her religion teacher suggested she take the extra classes (on Saturdays) and register to take the exam and we seriously considered it for a while ... an A is an A, right?

In the end she decided to focus on her preferred subjects.

Glad to hear your daughter has more common sense than her religion teacher. The "an A is an A for points" point is one of the key problems with our education system right now: having an A in RE will be utterly worthless to 99% of students when they enter the college system, far better to focus on the subjects one will be using for their degree.

I'm actually utterly dismayed at the inclusion of RE in the exam system whilst philosophy, programming and health are utterly ignored.

implausible

Daisy M wrote: »

I dont mind the teaching of it I mind the exam and the fact the class tests are pretty hard going. I think its great to learn about other religions but I am not fully sure that if someone is an atheist that they should not have a choice. It really is the exam not been a choice I have a problem with. It is an extremely hard subject and my sons teacher really takes it seriously.

I just want to clarify something here in case there is any confusion - religion is NOT a compulsory exam subject in every secondary school, in fact I'd go so far as to guess that it's only the situation in a minority of schools. Parents do have a choice, in determining what school their child goes to. Different schools decide what subjects are compulsory for the Junior Cert - it may be Religion in one school, French in another and History in another.

SerialComplaint

lazygal wrote: »

Schools are exempt from the Equal Status Act in religious aspects and can legally refuse a child in favour of one that subscribes to the ethos. Happens all the time in a local CofI school, Catholics or those of no faith are regularly turned away.

Just to be clear, a school can NOT refuse a child because of their religion or lack of religion. They CAN give priority to children of a certain religion. If the school is over-subscribed, those of no religion can get bumped off the bottom of the list.

Orion

Yes they can. Schools are exempt from both the Equal Status and Employment Equality Acts. They can refuse employment to people of other faiths and refuse to enrol children of other faiths if they deem it necessary "to protect the ethos" of the school.

Vel

January wrote: »

Naming ceremony... and Educate Together school. Problem solved...

Not for us as the Educate Together school in our area is so over subscribed and our son is No. 154 on the list:rolleyes:

We are in a similar situation as don't want anything to do with the Catholic Church or the local Catholic school. My partner is from a Methodist background so we have been thinking of getting the kids baptised in our local Methodist Church in order for them to be considered for a place in the local Church of Ireland school which is really good. Its a big decision for us as both of us would prefer not to get them baptised at all but we also want to make sure they get a good education.

I have spent a lot of time reading up on the Methodist ethos which is very much family based and community focused which I like and I had gotten my head around the idea that you can't be anonymous like in the Catholic Church and would have to be prepared to participate in mass/events etc. We went up to meet the Reverand the other day and it was all going so well until he told us that some members of the congregation are very likely to have a problem with us not being married. Doesn't seem very Christian to me!

Sleepy

Vel, neither of our kids are baptised as COI but one is currently attending a COI school and his younger sister will be following him there in a year or two as education wise the school is fantastic.

My advice would be to speak with the headmaster/mistress of the school directly about getting your child's name down. We have noticed there's a definite clique of the "mummy's who do lunch" in operation but suspect that would be the case in any school in an area where you have quite a few well off parents.

Vel

Have done that Sleepy but all we were told is that they give places to COI first, followed by other Methodist religions, followed by the rest, so there is just no guarantee. They did pretty much tell us that if they were baptised Methoidst they would get in, hence why we had the meeting last week.

Quite frankly I don't care what people think of the fact that we have chosen to have children outside of marriage. We are in a strong committed relationship and both our children were planned, but I won't under any circumstances put myself into a regular situation where I feel we are being judged or have to justify our situation to others. My partner thinks I should just suck it up for the sake of the kids!

SerialComplaint

Orion wrote: »

Yes they can. Schools are exempt from both the Equal Status and Employment Equality Acts. They can refuse employment to people of other faiths and refuse to enrol children of other faiths if they deem it necessary "to protect the ethos" of the school.

There is no general exemption to Equality legislation for schools. That's why the Equality Authority go to the bother of producing a publication that tells schools about their specific obligations under the Equal Status Acts?

http://www.equality.ie/index.asp?locID=106&docID=66

The conditions about refusal of pupils are;

A second exemption concerns schools where the objective is to provide education in an environment that promotes certain religious values. A school that has this objective can admit a student of a particular religious denomination in preference to other students. Such a school can also refuse to admit a student who is not of that religion, provided it can prove that this refusal is essential to maintain the ethos of the school.

So it only applies to certain schools, and it only applies where the refusal is 'essential to maintain the ethos of the school'.

Very, very few schools have enrolment policies that refuse students based on their religion.

Orion

So you agree with me then. All catholic schools have a policy that one of their raisons d'etre is to promote a catholic ethos. This does not have to be in the enrolment policy.

95% (ish) of schools are patron-ed by religious orders so saying "only certain schools" is disingenuous. 100% of these schools can discriminate based on religion if they chose to and most do.

Proof is also a relative thing in this regard. The school simply has to say that it believes that allowing a muslim (for example) in to the school could harm the ethos of the school and no judge could rule against them. The only grounds someone would have would be if the school admitted someone of the same religion (or non religion) as you who was below you on the list. Otherwise they are well within their legal rights.

You can argue the toss about this all night if you like. But this is fact. I was heavily involved in a campaign against the two Bills in 1999/2000 for exactly this reason. I have heard all the arguments saying this will never happen. It has happened. It continues to happen. And it will happen repeatedly until some government finally grows a pair of balls and tells the various churches that they're not getting their own way anymore. Not in my lifetime I imagine.

SerialComplaint

I certainly don't agree with your claim that "Schools are exempt from both the Equal Status and Employment Equality Acts". That is not true. To say that "100% of these schools can discriminate based on religion if they chose to and most do" is not true. Most don't discriminate. Most principals want more pupils. More pupils = more teachers and more voluntary contributions and more economies of scale. Most schools don't want to turn away anyone. Some Catholic schools are reserving specific places for students of no religion. http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0123/schools.html

Believe it or not, I share your concern about religious control of schools. You don't do your case any favours by exaggerating the problem.

I did a quick Google search for school enrolement policies in Ireland. Not one of these schools will refuse a student because of their religion;

http://www.sixmilebridgens.ie/enrolment_policy.html
http://www.garrydoolisns.com/school-rules-and-policies/enrolment-policy/
http://www.stcolumbasns.com/?page_id=55
http://www.carnaunns.ie/media/files/Enrolment%20Policy.pdf
http://www.innishannonschool.com/About-Us/Enrollment-Policy.aspx
http://www.taneyschool.ie/Enrolment%20Policy.pdf
http://www.realtnamarans.ie/index.php?page=enrolment-policy

So where exactly are these 'most schools' that refuse pupils because of their religion?

lazygal

SerialComplaint wrote: »

So where exactly are these 'most schools' that refuse pupils because of their religion?

There are two near me. I won't name them as I'm not sure if that would contravene boards rules. One I referred to above, its a CofI school and I know parents of non-CofI children who have been refused a place in writing because they are Catholic and this would dilute the ethos. The other is a Gaelscoil with a Catholic ethos who has refused children who have not been baptised, the parents who fail to submit a baptismal cert for the child are routinely refused because it is a Catholic school. I'm in a Dublin suburb, there are also Educate Together and two other Catholic schools within my catchment area, and I know the Catholic schools, while slightly more flexible, have become a lot stricter about baptismal certs and have kept parents waiting to hear about a place, which isn't ideal for planning your child's education.

SerialComplaint

lazygal wrote: »

There are two near me. I won't name them as I'm not sure if that would contravene boards rules.

There is nothing in the charter about not naming schools. Enrolment policies are in the public domain, as I showed with the eight examples above.

There is no reason why you shouldn't link to the enrolment policies of the schools in question. I've already linked to one other CofI school (Taney) that includes the line 'Children of other religions and none' as the last priority in their enrolment policy.

Orion

SerialComplaint wrote: »

I certainly don't agree with your claim that "Schools are exempt from both the Equal Status and Employment Equality Acts". That is not true. To say that "100% of these schools can discriminate based on religion if they chose to and most do" is not true. Most don't discriminate. Most principals want more pupils. More pupils = more teachers and more voluntary contributions and more economies of scale. Most schools don't want to turn away anyone. Some Catholic schools are reserving specific places for students of no religion. http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0123/schools.html

Simply saying they are exempt is a mistake on my part. They are exempt from the religious discrimination part of them only - no other part.

I'll have to dig up the references - won't happen tonight. That you've found a few schools that are inclusive but the vast majority do discriminate. Even giving 1 catholic priority over someone else is discrimination. The fact that they then allow in some non-catholics does not lessen that discrimination.

So lets look at the ones you linked:
SixMileBridge:
The school has a Catholic ethos. In addition to Catholic religious education, Catholic values permeate all school activities. The Employment Equality Act 1997 safeguards the rights of schools of religious denominations to give priority to children of their particular denomination over children of other denominations. Accordingly, the Board of Management of Sixmilebridge N.S. has decided that priority will be given to applications made on behalf of a child whose parents are seeking an education in the Catholic tradition.

They're actually wrong in this - it's the Equal Status Act that gives them this right but the principle is the same.

Garrydoolis:
The school aims to promote the full and harmonious development of all pupils: cognitive, intellectual, physical, cultural, moral and spiritual, including a living relationship with God and other people and promotes a Christian philosophy of life.
What about non-christians such as Jews, Muslims, Atheists?

St. Columba's
St Columba’s National School is a Church of Ireland school. Priority for places is therefore given in the following order:

(a) Church of Ireland (Anglican) parishioners/accustomed members of the parish of North Strand. The rector of North Strand must countersign the application form. Note: Members of the Porvoo Communion i.e. The Evangelical Lutheran churches of Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania and Denmark, Old Catholic and Mar Thoma are full communicant members of the Church of Ireland when resident in Ireland.
(b) Children who are members of Protestant, Reformed, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches. A signature of a church leader is required on the Application Form.


That's just the first three - I haven't even looked at the rest. And they all discriminate based on religion as is their legal right.

Orion

SerialComplaint wrote: »

There is nothing in the charter about not naming schools. Enrolment policies are in the public domain, as I showed with the eight examples above.

Name away. It's not defamation if it's true.

SerialComplaint wrote: »

There is no reason why you shouldn't link to the enrolment policies of the schools in question. I've already linked to one other CofI school (Taney) that includes the line 'Children of other religions and none' as the last priority in their enrolment policy.

And there's another discriminatory school so - any religion before heathens

lazygal

SerialComplaint wrote: »

There is nothing in the charter about not naming schools. Enrolment policies are in the public domain, as I showed with the eight examples above.

There is no reason why you shouldn't link to the enrolment policies of the schools in question. I've already linked to one other CofI school (Taney) that includes the line 'Children of other religions and none' as the last priority in their enrolment policy.

Well, I won't be naming them so you'll have to take me on my word, which you're free to disregard if you want. I am a Montessori teacher and have had direct experiance of children in my class being refused places in local schools based on being the wrong faith or of no faith. I've seen it happen every year I've been teaching and other preschool teachers in my area have too. I don't plan on baptising our child so we'll be taking our chance with the ET school and the two other schools I know we have a chance with.
No matter how its spun, its enshrined in Irish law that schools are fuly legally entitled to refuse entry to children on the grounds of faith alone, whether individual schools you know of don't exercise that right contrasts with my experiance, where they do. It shouldn't be on the statute books in a republic that ANY state funded institution can legally refuse a state service to anyone on the grounds of religion.

SerialComplaint

Orion wrote: »

Simply saying they are exempt is a mistake on my part. They are exempt from the religious discrimination part of them only - no other part.

They don't have a general exemption from the religious discrimination part. They have particular, limited exemptions in relation to enrolment of students and employment of teachers.

Orion wrote: »

I'll have to dig up the references - won't happen tonight. That you've found a few schools that are inclusive but the vast majority do discriminate. Even giving 1 catholic priority over someone else is discrimination. The fact that they then allow in some non-catholics does not lessen that discrimination.

We seem to be going round in circles here. I understand and agree that schools can and do discriminate by giving priority to students of certain religions. I don't like this any more than you do.

However, I pointed out here that schools don't refuse on grounds of religion unless they are over-subscribed.

Orion wrote: »

So lets look at the ones you linked:
SixMileBridge:
The school has a Catholic ethos. In addition to Catholic religious education, Catholic values permeate all school activities. The Employment Equality Act 1997 safeguards the rights of schools of religious denominations to give priority to children of their particular denomination over children of other denominations. Accordingly, the Board of Management of Sixmilebridge N.S. has decided that priority will be given to applications made on behalf of a child whose parents are seeking an education in the Catholic tradition.

They're actually wrong in this - it's the Equal Status Act that gives them this right but the principle is the same.

You are correct about the Equal Status Act being the relevant Act. But why the selective quoting. Why don't you quote the bit that shows religion is not used to priorities pupils; i.e.

In the event of the number of children seeking enrolment in any given class/standard exceeding the number of places available the Board shall exercise its discretion in the application of the following criteria (in order of priority) for decision-making in relation to enrolments:

1. Applicants on class waiting list
2. Brothers & Sisters (including step-siblings, resident at same address) of children already enrolled, or that have been enrolled in the past - priority to oldest.
3. Children of current school staff - priority to oldest
4. Children living within the traditional catchment area of Sixmilebridge N.S. as defined by Parish boundaries.

Orion wrote: »

Garrydoolis:
The school aims to promote the full and harmonious development of all pupils: cognitive, intellectual, physical, cultural, moral and spiritual, including a living relationship with God and other people and promotes a Christian philosophy of life.
What about non-christians such as Jews, Muslims, Atheists?

More selective quoting. Here's how they prioritise - no mention of religion;

In the event of the number of children seeking enrolment in any given class/standard exceeding the number of places available the following criteria will be used to prioritise children for enrolment:

Brothers and sisters (including stepsiblings, resident at same address) of children already current school staff – priority oldest enrolled with priority going to be oldest.
Children of school staff.
Children of past pupils of the school
Children whose home address is closest to the school (as measured by a straight line on an O.S. map).
Lottery

Orion wrote: »

St. Columba's
St Columba’s National School is a Church of Ireland school. Priority for places is therefore given in the following order:

(a) Church of Ireland (Anglican) parishioners/accustomed members of the parish of North Strand. The rector of North Strand must countersign the application form. Note: Members of the Porvoo Communion i.e. The Evangelical Lutheran churches of Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania and Denmark, Old Catholic and Mar Thoma are full communicant members of the Church of Ireland when resident in Ireland.
(b) Children who are members of Protestant, Reformed, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches. A signature of a church leader is required on the Application Form.

More selective quoting. Why not quote their full list of criteria, including;

(f) Children of other faiths or none.

Orion wrote: »

And they all discriminate based on religion as is their legal right.

Yes, they do. But they don't refuse students on grounds of religion unless they are over-subscribed.

Orion

We are going round in circles alright. All of these schools above discriminate on the grounds of religion.

The one that has the 6th criteria as "other faiths or none" only lets them in if they have room after all their own kind are catered for. How is that not discriminatory?

SixMileBridge specifically states "priority will be given to applications made on behalf of a child whose parents are seeking an education in the Catholic tradition" - how is that not discriminatory?

Of course it's selective quoting - people can read the full policies themselves. But then you even agree that they discriminate on grounds of religion. So what exactly are we arguing about here?