Government considers time limit for dole.

It is reported the Government is considering a time limit for social welfare recipients to find an alternative to being on the dole.

It is understood that if they fail to make progress by this date, they will be called to an interview to explain why and could have their benefits cut if they fail to cooperate.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/govt-considers-time-limit-for-dole-recipients-537068.html#ixzz1kNA1UgXG

Im simply stunnned at this proposal.

Where does the government think 450,000 jobs and training vaccanices are going to come from? If they introduce something like this and people start to loose their dole payments I can see a huge backlash.

I never thought Id say this but Fine Gael seem to be worse than Fianna Fail.

I think it's a good start.

The repercussions so far seem to be "called to an interview to explain why", which doesn't seem to be too harsh. I'm sure if you were genuinely looking for work and had proof of such, you'd be doing okay.

bluewolf

bluewolf wrote: »

I think it's a good start.

The repercussions so far seem to be "called to an interview to explain why", which doesn't seem to be too harsh. I'm sure if you were genuinely looking for work and had proof of such, you'd be doing okay.

This is what happens already, so either this is a rehash of the same current policy or they are looking at forcing people of the dole in order to save money.

I can see them attacking the young first, after all Noonan thinks they can go and emmigrate as a lifestyle choice, after they get rid of the trouble makers they will no doubt go after families as there will be no young left to fight back.

Nijmegen

Be careful in reading this how it's reported - The facts and hyperbole might diverge. The idea of reducing welfare to people on jobseekers who are not making a real effort to find a job is something that makes a lot of sense under normal conditions.

Of course, in Ireland it's hard for people to find a new job. But there is a difference between finding a new job and being active in looking for one, taking measures to get training and generally be seen to be making an effort versus sitting on the dole waiting for that new job to land in your lap.

I think what we're moving towards is not a system that will cut off any jobseeker regardless of effort, but one that works to actively encourage people to get proactive in searching for a job.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

[/URL]


Where does the government think 450,000 jobs and training vaccanices are going to come from

the national internship scheme?

gbee

Deleted User wrote: »

[/URL] Where does the government think 450,000 jobs and training vaccanices are going to come from?

"we need 30 thousand migrants a month to fill the vacancies"

OH Dear, wrong quote! Maybe someone can fix it for me.

Godge

Deleted User wrote: »

[/URL]



Im simply stunnned at this proposal.

Where does the government think 450,000 jobs and training vaccanices are going to come from? If they introduce something like this and people start to loose their dole payments I can see a huge backlash.

I never thought Id say this but Fine Gael seem to be worse than Fianna Fail.

Ask the multinationals who are finding it very difficult to recruit in Ireland. They are constantly having to bring in properly qualified people from abroad.

Pope John 11

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2056527843

Perhaps the Mods could link all these threads into one

jank

This was on the cards as the Troika mentioned this in some end of year report. In fairness I agree with this. Professional scroungers should be made accountable for their actions. I dont think this is going to target those who recently lost their job and are actively seeking work and/or training. It will target those that see welfare as a lifestyle option. I am all for that.

However expect mass hysteria from the Irish media. All this should have been done in the good times yet FG are cleaning up an awful mess. Hard to do these in the bad times so fair play for the courage to do this.

old hippy

jank wrote: »

This was on the cards as the Troika mentioned this in some end of year report. In fairness I agree with this. Professional scroungers should be made accountable for their actions. I dont think this is going to target those who recently lost their job and are actively seeking work and/or training. It will target those that see welfare as a lifestyle option. I am all for that.

However expect mass hysteria from the Irish media. All this should have been done in the good times yet FG are cleaning up an awful mess. Hard to do these in the bad times so fair play for the courage to do this.

I hope there is mass hysteria; how dare they do this when people are suffering enough? And just what is a professional scrounger?

Geuze

Many countries have a time duration to un payments, it's the norm elsewhere.

USA = 26 weeks, extended to 99 weeks in the recession.

NL = limited duration of UI (38 months??)

http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/emire/NETHERLANDS/UNEMPLOYMENTBENEFITSACTWW-NL.htm

DK = 2 years UI, no UA/JA

donalg1

I for one think its a good idea, but there has to be some differntiating between those genuinely looking for work and those taking the p***. Say for instance those on JB for ten years, what excuse do they have for not working for the last decade they should be cut immediately or at least brought in and asked to explain why they werent able to find even one job in ten years.

As for those recently unemployed say in the last two years or so well a certain amount of leeway should be extended to them as the jobs market is non existant at the minute, but definitely start with the long term unemployed.

I cant see anyone having an argument against penalising someone on JB for a decade or at least having to answer a couple of questions as to why they haven't worked for so long. Plus if you can weed out the lifers then those in need the most will at least have a fair system at their disposal.

Dannyboy83

Godge wrote: »

Ask the multinationals who are finding it very difficult to recruit in Ireland. They are constantly having to bring in properly qualified people from abroad.

I'm not surprised to hear this actually, so many skilled people are leaving the country.

Geuze

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/38/16/44508994.xls

See above for OECD data on UI and UA in various countries.


Some countries just have unemployment insurance, with no "dole" or unemployment assistance afterwards.

Or else the "dole" is much less.

We are unusual in that we give the long-term un more benefits, not less.

murphaph

old hippy wrote: »

And just what is a professional scrounger?

Someone who has been on the dole and other assorted benefits for 10 years can certainly be classed as a professional scrounger. Someone who has been on it for 10 months having worked the previous 10 years can't.

The system MUST reduce benefits to long term claimants. It's a first step in a process that really needs to shake up Irish welfare.

Decent working people should have a decent safety net, but it must get increasingly uncomfortable over time to ensure people don't become to accustomed to it.

Geuze

http://files.nesc.ie/nesc_reports/en/NESC_123_2011_full.pdf

This NESC reports outlines many options for reforming JB and JA.

coolshannagh28

Godge wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

[/URL]



Im simply stunnned at this proposal.

Where does the government think 450,000 jobs and training vaccanices are going to come from? If they introduce something like this and people start to loose their dole payments I can see a huge backlash.

I never thought Id say this but Fine Gael seem to be worse than Fianna Fail.

Ask the multinationals who are finding it very difficult to recruit in Ireland. They are constantly having to bring in properly qualified people from abroad.

The multinationals cherrypick out of the top 5 % of our graduates , l can't imagine that as a realistic solution bearing in mind the fact that they provide quite low levels of employment per their % of GDP .

bigjohn66

I said years ago this is how it should be to get the long term
(Over 5 years) off their ass. Reduce it by say 10 or 15% each year. Because of the state of the country and world for that matter at the moment it would be tough but a Starting point would be.

Anyone unemployed over 5 years. 5 years ago there was work for anyone who wanted to work. Maybe not in their trained field but there was loads of work out there and if these people didn’t avail of it why should the rest of us have to pay for them to sit at home on their ass and do nothing.

Bebo stunnah

I not only think this is a great idea, i hope they back date it! so if somebody had been on it for several years, they'll automatically receive no payment. If they were genuinely on it, they wouldnt have been on it when the times were 'good'.

jank

old hippy wrote: »

I hope there is mass hysteria; how dare they do this when people are suffering enough? And just what is a professional scrounger?

Probably one of the 150k-200k people who was claiming JSB while the country was in the middle of the biggest boom/bubble in the history of the state. Do u object for that these people to have their dole cut?

FreudianSlippers

Looks like the government is reading boards.ie! Myself and a few others have been on about this idea for ages now.

Sleepy

It's a no brainer and those giving out about it can be ignored easily: they don't contribute to the country's coffers, they don't get a say in how it's spent.

Leo Dowling

I wonder what happened since the boom to bring the amount of people not working from 3.8% up to 15%. Sudden epidemic of laziness/whork-shy flu? Or maybe loads of people just lost their jobs and there aren't enough jobs now.

It's a half-arsed and vague policy proposal made to appease the troika. It won't go anywhere from here and it shouldn't. I'm all for reforming the labour market but we need proper innovative and comprehensive policy to do it rarther than a back-of-a-beermat idea.

It's all this stupidity and messing around with existing policy that's keeping the employment problem the way it is, taking a hatchet to it won't fix it, it hasn't worked for anything else.

syklops

bluewolf wrote: »

I think it's a good start.

The repercussions so far seem to be "called to an interview to explain why", which doesn't seem to be too harsh. I'm sure if you were genuinely looking for work and had proof of such, you'd be doing okay.

You're forgetting that its trendy to be outraged at any new government proposals. Cue "same as the last lot", "Joan Burton doesn't have a clue" etc etc.

plasteritup

i know plenty of guys,living in council house with mammy,188 dole broke down as follows,20 to mammy,100 on weed,15 to twenty on fags,the rest on cans and sweets,the odd week,xbox game.by all means cut the dole,if it can be proven that this is the case.

Idbatterim

there will be pages of debate over this, when in reality there should be none, I dont even think the topic warrants discussion. Pretty much every other well run European country does this. Its about bloody time. Iv had enough of working my ass off paying taxes, so other wasters who never lifted a finger in their lives can nearly afford to live at a similar standard to my own and thousands like me... This "crisis" is actually a blessing in some ways!

RichardAnd

plasteritup wrote: »

i know plenty of guys,living in council house with mammy,188 dole broke down as follows,20 to mammy,100 on weed,15 to twenty on fags,the rest on cans and sweets,the odd week,xbox game.by all means cut the dole,if it can be proven that this is the case.

I have a brush you can borrow but you must supply your own tar

HellFireClub

Nijmegen wrote: »

Be careful in reading this how it's reported - The facts and hyperbole might diverge. The idea of reducing welfare to people on jobseekers who are not making a real effort to find a job is something that makes a lot of sense under normal conditions.

Of course, in Ireland it's hard for people to find a new job. But there is a difference between finding a new job and being active in looking for one, taking measures to get training and generally be seen to be making an effort versus sitting on the dole waiting for that new job to land in your lap.

I think what we're moving towards is not a system that will cut off any jobseeker regardless of effort, but one that works to actively encourage people to get proactive in searching for a job.

This idea could actually work, if you completely removed the pathethic plebs that work down in the dole offices, from the equation.

I was on the dole for a period of around a year and a half, ending just over 12 months ago. The very last people on the face of this earth who should be allowed to decide whether someone is actively looking for work, or actively trying to get off the dole, are the PS "for the file" idiots who work in the Dept. of Social Protection.

I went through this when I applied for the Back to Work Enterprise Allowance in my local dole office, (this scheme doesn't actually exist in anything other than name, it's only a different Social Welfare "heading" to technically take you off the Live Register).

The whole mentality down in the dole office is to create as much paperwork as can possibly be generated about you, I used to call it, "for the file", because everytime I went down to them with a query on my application, I was told that more paperwork was needed "for the file".

God help any poor unfortunate person who would have to convince these degenerates working in the dole office, that you are actively trying to get a job.

Make no mistake about it, what this is going to do, is create yet another absolutely monsterous layer of beaurocracy, just to be able to stay on the dole. If you are on the dole now, you'll be running around in circles chasing down letters stating that you have been declined for a job, (which are hardly ever issued, as you are very often just ignored and sent nothing by way of a reply to an application for a job you might have made), so now you'll have to chase down these letters, and come up with more paper for the paper addicts down at hatch 45.

All I can say is God help anyone who has to go through this, I did once and it's no exageration to say that I nearly ended up in the river over the treatment I received. It will do absolutely nothing to get people back to work, however it will no doubt increase the rate of suicides though, which Joan Burton will probably be delighted to hear, as people in early graves tend not to sign on every month.

Dannyboy83

HellFireClub wrote: »

This idea could actually work, if you completely removed the pathethic plebs that work down in the dole offices, from the equation.

Most Irish people don't two fcuks, it doesn't affect them now so they don't care and won't understand just how incompetent the Department of Social Welfare are until it's too late for them.

I've never been on the dole myself, but I've had plenty of dealings with them, trying to help my girlfriend and other friends.
They are the single worst organisation I have ever encountered in my entire life.
I know people will think I'm exagerrating, but God Help You if you ever have to find out I'm not!

Honestly, if I hear some day about day about some trench coat lunatic opening up on them with a shotgun, I will not be surprised at all.

There wouldn't be many casualties tho, only 2 of the 12 kiosks in Cork city are open max, at any given time!:D
-2 Kiosks serving a metropolitan population of 274,000 people:rolleyes:
-1 person on the information desk to make sure a massive queue builds up all the way down to Washington street (so people will give up and go home in disgust):rolleyes:
-and the 2 obligatory wasters who walk around with the same piece of paper for 8 hours or swinging the same pair of keys. :rolleyes:

old hippy

plasteritup wrote: »

i know plenty of guys,living in council house with mammy,188 dole broke down as follows,20 to mammy,100 on weed,15 to twenty on fags,the rest on cans and sweets,the odd week,xbox game.by all means cut the dole,if it can be proven that this is the case.

No, no you don't.

HellFireClub

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Most Irish people don't two fcuks, it doesn't affect them now so they don't care and won't understand just how incompetent the Department of Social Welfare are until it's too late for them.

I've never been on the dole myself, but I've had plenty of dealings with them, trying to help my girlfriend and other friends.
They are the single worst organisation I have ever encountered in my entire life.
I know people will think I'm exagerrating, but God Help You if you ever have to find out I'm not!

Honestly, if I hear some day about day about some trench coat lunatic opening up on them with a shotgun, I will not be surprised at all.

There wouldn't be many casualties tho, only 2 of the 12 kiosks in Cork city are open max, at any given time!:D
-2 Kiosks serving a metropolitan population of 274,000 people:rolleyes:
-1 person on the information desk to make sure a massive queue builds up all the way down to Washington street (so people will give up and go home in disgust):rolleyes:
-and the 2 obligatory wasters who walk around with the same piece of paper for 8 hours or swinging the same pair of keys. :rolleyes:

I remember I had to have a meeting with one of them in the dole office a about a year and a half ago, in I go to the meeting, I followed the "interviewer" in to the room, through the door that she went into the room through.

She turns around and tells me that I must use the other door! So I use the "other door" to find myself in a prison like room, with a steel & perspex partition in between me and the interviewer, (it's basially a room with two doors at opposite ends of the room with a table in the middle that is integrated into a big huge prison like partition to prevent any possibility of contact between the two people in the "room"!) as if I was after finding myself in Mountjoy!

I wouldn't have been at all surprised if someone had come in and tried to put a pair of handcuffs on me. This is what the folks in the dole office think of the people on the dole, and I can tell you one thing, in case some do-gooder comes back on thread and tells me that it's all for their personal health and safety, the way that they treat people, it's no wonder that this is how they have got their union to turn interview rooms into what are basically prison holding cells, it reinforces the metality that they have that they can treat people like animals, sure haven't they got the holding cell and all ready for you so they already have gone some considerable way towards making you feel like an animal.

I often reflect back on my own experiences with these people and wonder how many of them sitting behind their glass partitions have been the cause of someone committing suicide. I've said it many times before in this forum, the key to solving our unemployment crisis is in getting the people who currently work in the dole office, OUT, and putting in caring and compassionate people who can first of all listen to the needs of the applicant, who can work with them in a respectful way with a view to getting them ready to get back to work and guiding them through the process so that the ultimate outcome for the applicant and the state/taxpayer, is a win-win result.

I can tell you, and anyone who has been at hatch 45 can tell you, that there isn't a hope of any scheme or plan to harrass people off the dole, actually working, until those currently working in the dole offices are removed and replaced with competent people who are not taking their orders to oppose everything and anything regarding change in the work place from a union, and who are actually up for being part of the solution to our national problems as opposed to holding old dysfucntional working practices and procedures in place.

This idea to force people off the dole is going to end in protests and the protests I imagine will be in the form of sit-in's and Gardai being called to clear protests out of dole offices...

screamer

Agreeded HFC, a friend of mine who paid a fortune in taxes and worked for years, and ended up on JS allowance said he was treated like the sh1t on their shoes in the dole office.

gandalf

A scheme like this is long overdue. I was unlucky enough to be unemployed for 6 months over 2010/2011 and was surprised at the lack of effort in asking if I was seeking employment and proving it. Contrast that with my mortgage payment insurance where every month I had to send a form detailing my job search including who I applied to, what interviews I had and the results of those applications to ensure I had that months payment covered.

The only issue I see if that this will need far more interactivity from the current staff and personally I do not think they will be up to the job.

Icepick

This is a good idea but it has to be strict to work.

NIMAN

I happened to be unemployed in NI maybe 20yrs ago, and when you went to sign on you could be asked randomly to attend a later appt to prove you were looking for work.

You had to bring applications, Dear John rejection letters etc.

So this is maybe not a bad thing, or such a shocking thing.

Dannyboy83

HellFireClub wrote: »

I often reflect back on my own experiences with these people and wonder how many of them sitting behind their glass partitions have been the cause of someone committing suicide.

Honestly, the same thing has crossed my mind numerous times.

After 1 day in that place, I was much better equipped to understand how people are driven to drink and heroin and so on.

I guess for the majority of people on the politics forum, you probably wouldn't be here unless you were reasonably educated, so a trip to the dole office is more than likely just a temporary set back and temporary confidence knock, but ultimately you will pull it together and make things happen.

Imagine tho, if you're the type of person who has never had much of an education, doesn't have any skills or confidence, and you know your life is going to be spent in and out of that place.
I would end up as a junkie or I'd throw myself in the river.

That's before you ever have to deal with their obscene incompetence.

Sica

HellFireClub wrote: »

find myself in a prison like room, with a steel & perspex partition in between me and the interviewer, (it's basially a room with two doors at opposite ends of the room with a table in the middle that is integrated into a big huge prison like partition to prevent any possibility of contact between the two people in the "room"!) as if I was after finding myself in Mountjoy!

This is what the folks in the dole office think of the people on the dole, and I can tell you one thing, in case some do-gooder comes back on thread and tells me that it's all for their personal health and safety

I can't think of any other worker in the public sector, with the possible exception of police, who are likely to be attacked by the public they deal with than social welfare officers. Elements of this thread already show the utter contempt social welfare users feel towards social welfare employees. In part this may well be to do with the attitude of some of the workers, but part of it must also relate to the fact that the people who use social welfare, the unemployed, often feel powerless and resent the percieved power of the people working in social welfare offices.

Its very easy to imagine someone snapping on being told their benefits were being reduced/cut and lunging straight for the messenger. There is no way those glass partitions are there just to make people feel sadder and more powerless than they already are. I certainly wouldn't work in a social welfare office unless I had that partition between me and the public.

donalg1

HellFireClub wrote: »

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Most Irish people don't two fcuks, it doesn't affect them now so they don't care and won't understand just how incompetent the Department of Social Welfare are until it's too late for them.

I've never been on the dole myself, but I've had plenty of dealings with them, trying to help my girlfriend and other friends.
They are the single worst organisation I have ever encountered in my entire life.
I know people will think I'm exagerrating, but God Help You if you ever have to find out I'm not!

Honestly, if I hear some day about day about some trench coat lunatic opening up on them with a shotgun, I will not be surprised at all.

There wouldn't be many casualties tho, only 2 of the 12 kiosks in Cork city are open max, at any given time!:D
-2 Kiosks serving a metropolitan population of 274,000 people:rolleyes:
-1 person on the information desk to make sure a massive queue builds up all the way down to Washington street (so people will give up and go home in disgust):rolleyes:
-and the 2 obligatory wasters who walk around with the same piece of paper for 8 hours or swinging the same pair of keys. :rolleyes:

I remember I had to have a meeting with one of them in the dole office a about a year and a half ago, in I go to the meeting, I followed the "interviewer" in to the room, through the door that she went into the room through.

She turns around and tells me that I must use the other door! So I use the "other door" to find myself in a prison like room, with a steel & perspex partition in between me and the interviewer, (it's basially a room with two doors at opposite ends of the room with a table in the middle that is integrated into a big huge prison like partition to prevent any possibility of contact between the two people in the "room"!) as if I was after finding myself in Mountjoy!

I wouldn't have been at all surprised if someone had come in and tried to put a pair of handcuffs on me. This is what the folks in the dole office think of the people on the dole, and I can tell you one thing, in case some do-gooder comes back on thread and tells me that it's all for their personal health and safety, the way that they treat people, it's no wonder that this is how they have got their union to turn interview rooms into what are basically prison holding cells, it reinforces the metality that they have that they can treat people like animals, sure haven't they got the holding cell and all ready for you so they already have gone some considerable way towards making you feel like an animal.

I often reflect back on my own experiences with these people and wonder how many of them sitting behind their glass partitions have been the cause of someone committing suicide. I've said it many times before in this forum, the key to solving our unemployment crisis is in getting the people who currently work in the dole office, OUT, and putting in caring and compassionate people who can first of all listen to the needs of the applicant, who can work with them in a respectful way with a view to getting them ready to get back to work and guiding them through the process so that the ultimate outcome for the applicant and the state/taxpayer, is a win-win result.

I can tell you, and anyone who has been at hatch 45 can tell you, that there isn't a hope of any scheme or plan to harrass people off the dole, actually working, until those currently working in the dole offices are removed and replaced with competent people who are not taking their orders to oppose everything and anything regarding change in the work place from a union, and who are actually up for being part of the solution to our national problems as opposed to holding old dysfucntional working practices and procedures in place.

This idea to force people off the dole is going to end in protests and the protests I imagine will be in the form of sit-in's and Gardai being called to clear protests out of dole offices...

People working in dole offices are there to process applications and make sure payments are made on time and many more things but they certainly aren't there to mammy people and "get them ready" to go back to work. It's not a crèche ffs and if they treated people like that they would be called rude and patronising and people would complain they are being treated like babies by SW

Dannyboy83

Sica wrote: »

Its very easy to imagine someone snapping on being told their benefits were being reduced/cut and lunging straight for the messenger.

Open to correction, but I don't believe it happens like that.

Welfare Officers do not make the decisions.
They simply collect the information and compile it into a file.
Then a supervisor reviews it and makes a decision based on the information available.
A letter is then sent in the post.
If you choose to appeal, it bypasses the welfare officer.

Welfare officers are basically just (hugely incompetent) secretaries.
I genuinely believe it goes beyond incompetence tho, I believe they are actually being actively warned to slow down the process by their superiors.
There is no other way to explain some of the things I've seen, other than group amnesia.

If the Revenue functioned like the DSP, the country would collapse in a week.
The Revenue are the anti-DSP.
Some of equivalent rank officers I've dealt with in Revenue have been sharp as a razor, many of them really know their jobs inside out and I can't honestly remember a single time when I would been able to, not to mind needed to, correct some oversight on their behalf.
I've never met one of those people, ever, in the Department of Social Welfare.
Half the reason friends ask me to come along to help is because the Welfare officers never do today what can be delayed for 8 weeks by an *oversight*.

In any case, HellFireClub hit the nail on the head with the following statement

HellFireClub wrote:

I can tell you, and anyone who has been at hatch 45 can tell you, that there isn't a hope of any scheme or plan to harrass people off the dole, actually working, until those currently working in the dole offices are removed and replaced with competent people who are not taking their orders to oppose everything and anything regarding change in the work place from a union, and who are actually up for being part of the solution to our national problems as opposed to holding old dysfucntional working practices and procedures in place.

Erper

Considering that lots of populations lives from dole, i wouldnt be surprised if some problems come with it, like rage, fights,steeling, etc. its gona be baaaad....
They r trying something like in germany.
Back there if u loose/ get fired u can stay up to 6months on dole, after that u get a 1e from social walfare...

audidiesel

personally i think anyone on the dole from before 2008 should have it cut quite a lot. at least 50-60%. the country was in full employment throughout till the start of 2008. anyone who didnt get a job in this period didnt want a job. simple as. the country cant keep subsidising their lifestyle.

since mid 2008 onwards when we had the crash, if you lost your job at this stage then in the current climate its incredibly hard to get back working. so those people i would definately have sympathy for.

id certainly be in favour of big cuts to anyone on the dole pre 2008.

RichardAnd

HellFireClub wrote: »

I remember I had to have a meeting with one of them in the dole office a about a year and a half ago, in I go to the meeting, I followed the "interviewer" in to the room, through the door that she went into the room through.

She turns around and tells me that I must use the other door! So I use the "other door" to find myself in a prison like room, with a steel & perspex partition in between me and the interviewer, (it's basially a room with two doors at opposite ends of the room with a table in the middle that is integrated into a big huge prison like partition to prevent any possibility of contact between the two people in the "room"!) as if I was after finding myself in Mountjoy!

I wouldn't have been at all surprised if someone had come in and tried to put a pair of handcuffs on me. This is what the folks in the dole office think of the people on the dole, and I can tell you one thing, in case some do-gooder comes back on thread and tells me that it's all for their personal health and safety, the way that they treat people, it's no wonder that this is how they have got their union to turn interview rooms into what are basically prison holding cells, it reinforces the metality that they have that they can treat people like animals, sure haven't they got the holding cell and all ready for you so they already have gone some considerable way towards making you feel like an animal.

I often reflect back on my own experiences with these people and wonder how many of them sitting behind their glass partitions have been the cause of someone committing suicide. I've said it many times before in this forum, the key to solving our unemployment crisis is in getting the people who currently work in the dole office, OUT, and putting in caring and compassionate people who can first of all listen to the needs of the applicant, who can work with them in a respectful way with a view to getting them ready to get back to work and guiding them through the process so that the ultimate outcome for the applicant and the state/taxpayer, is a win-win result.

I can tell you, and anyone who has been at hatch 45 can tell you, that there isn't a hope of any scheme or plan to harrass people off the dole, actually working, until those currently working in the dole offices are removed and replaced with competent people who are not taking their orders to oppose everything and anything regarding change in the work place from a union, and who are actually up for being part of the solution to our national problems as opposed to holding old dysfucntional working practices and procedures in place.

This idea to force people off the dole is going to end in protests and the protests I imagine will be in the form of sit-in's and Gardai being called to clear protests out of dole offices...

Hmm. I've heard some nasty stories from people on the dole so I'm inclined to believe this is true. Honestly, I think we need to break away from the current welfare system in more ways than one. Putting aside the issues of how much welfare gives to the recipient, I think a big problem is the way in which it is given. In the 21st century, is it really necessary for people to stand in line for their payments like great depression era soup kitchens?

mikemac1

People would just transfer to disability

How are you going to prove I don't have a back injury for example

Anxiety and depression are real issues that have led people to quit jobs and struggle with working. And tbh many employers are asking too much these days and running their business ridiculously short staffed and piling on the stress for the staff, it's a real issue
But my point was if you can convince a professional you have the issue, where ok you're off the dole but you go on disability

Is there any money saved at all which was the point of this thread?


Good point earlier in this thread about Revenue, they are always helpful and super sharp. A few key officers transferred over to kick ass and they'd sort it out.
But this would cause huge unrest too which maybe the ministers fear.

antoobrien

We had immigration of over 100,000 in 2007 at a time when we had unemployed. There were over 75k work permits issued between 2005 & 2007 (this obviously does not include eu nationals working here), with immigrations of over 100k in 2007.

At the same time we had just over 103,000 unemployed

As far as I'm concerned we can start with anybody that's been on the dole at the start of 2007 and work our way back from there.

pog it

audidiesel wrote: »

personally i think anyone on the dole from before 2008 should have it cut quite a lot. at least 50-60%. the country was in full employment throughout till the start of 2008. anyone who didnt get a job in this period didnt want a job. simple as. the country cant keep subsidising their lifestyle.

since mid 2008 onwards when we had the crash, if you lost your job at this stage then in the current climate its incredibly hard to get back working. so those people i would definately have sympathy for.

id certainly be in favour of big cuts to anyone on the dole pre 2008.

This is, sadly, true, these people will never want to work, for whatever reasons. They are also generally the ones who can take the hit. They generally seem to lie low, not spend as much, and can amass savings. Some even while living at home, etc.

ardmacha

This is a good plan and lessons can be learned from places like Scandanavian countries that do pay good welfare, but still push people out into jobs.

Two things.
I think they should look carefully at the timing of the push on this. The best time is when some jobs are beginning to open up. Currently, we are tied down by international problems, but if the international economy opens up then these measures should come into place.

Measures in this area also cost money and the payoff will not happen for few months or years, if at all. As said here, different (new?) staff will be needed to really drive this.

murphaph

gandalf wrote: »

A scheme like this is long overdue. I was unlucky enough to be unemployed for 6 months over 2010/2011 and was surprised at the lack of effort in asking if I was seeking employment and proving it. Contrast that with my mortgage payment insurance where every month I had to send a form detailing my job search including who I applied to, what interviews I had and the results of those applications to ensure I had that months payment covered.

The only issue I see if that this will need far more interactivity from the current staff and personally I do not think they will be up to the job.

You took out mortgage payment insurance on a large debt in case you found yourself out of work? I thought the dole was supposed to cover that :pac:

HellFireClub

Sica wrote: »

I can't think of any other worker in the public sector, with the possible exception of police, who are likely to be attacked by the public they deal with than social welfare officers. Elements of this thread already show the utter contempt social welfare users feel towards social welfare employees. In part this may well be to do with the attitude of some of the workers, but part of it must also relate to the fact that the people who use social welfare, the unemployed, often feel powerless and resent the percieved power of the people working in social welfare offices.

Its very easy to imagine someone snapping on being told their benefits were being reduced/cut and lunging straight for the messenger. There is no way those glass partitions are there just to make people feel sadder and more powerless than they already are. I certainly wouldn't work in a social welfare office unless I had that partition between me and the public.

Well the difference between you and I is probably that I'm speaking from personal and quite experience here, while you are possibly fortunate enough to not have to speak from your own experience in this regard.

The Gardai are dealing with people who are often drunk, on drugs, violent, or people who are just criminally minded in their nature. It couldn't be reasonably argued to any extent that the carpenter, office worker, mechanic, or florist who turns up at the dole office to apply for benefits that they have earned an entitlement to, that the same people present any risk to any employee at the dole office. So your comparison there is hardly comparable at all.

I'm speaking from experience and I can tell you that my experience is that you are treated, from the first question put to you, like a criminal. People when they are wound up, when they feel like someone is trying to stand on their neck, will have a reaction to this, it can often be animated, persuasive, compelling, but rarely violent. There is a working assumption down in the dole offices of this country, that you are automatically NOT entitled to the relief that you are seeking, and that is the starting point for the discussion. So the way the bean counters down at Hatch 45 deal with you expressing your opinion, is that they put you in a cage under the argument that "well you could get violent, after all, we can see you are in a bit of a financial pickle here" and then as is always the case in this country, the auld "health and safety" argument gets wheeled out, because after all, there isn't anything that can't be ushered into or out of a workplace under the flag of "health and safety", the ultimate wild card that can be used to achieve anything in a PS workplace...

Now you are trying to tell me that these same folks, are the people to decide whether you have been making enough of an effort to get a job, in a country where you are actually doing very well for yourself to get a letter from an employer stating that you are not going to be called for an interview?!?

Everyone who has stood in that queue will know what will happen here, the emphasis will now be on fattening up that big file on you, on getting you to come in every week with letters, paper, forms, whatever they can get to stuff into that file they have on you, where I'd be arguing that the focus should be on exploring with an applicant, what their present and future career options are and could well be, with the right preparation, training, and also group help.

What is being missed here is that when you are on the dole for more than a few weeks or months, you completely change as a person, and it's so subtle, you wouldn't even realise it. Your confidence goes completely out the window, simple little every day tasks such as e-mailing or printing a letter can become insurmountable tasks all for the want of a broadband connection or a printer cartridge. And you'll always have some smug pr*ck on here who will suggest that you get up off your arsé and get a bus to the library, again, it could be an insurmountable task for the want of the price of the bus fare.

One lesson I've learnt from being on the dole is that more than anything else in this world, a little bit of compassion, understanding and basic humanity, can often go a long long way to helping you make that breakthrough back to normality, from life on the dole. Sadly, the last thing you will find down at Hatch 45 is compassion, understanding and most of all, humanity.

HellFireClub

donalg1 wrote: »

People working in dole offices are there to process applications and make sure payments are made on time and many more things but they certainly aren't there to mammy people and "get them ready" to go back to work. It's not a crèche ffs and if they treated people like that they would be called rude and patronising and people would complain they are being treated like babies by SW

This is exactly the kind of patronising attitude I was speaking about in my last post above, the mindset that doesn't understand that life on the dole takes you completely into a world of dependancy and removes you out of a world of self-subsistance.

I completely disagree with the fact that you can turn up in a dole queue once a month, sign on and this can go on for all eternity. Something needs to change, but giving absolutely heartless and belligerant employees in the dole office (and in my personal recent experience, that is exactly what they are), an open ended license to torment, humiliate and basically harrass people off the dole, is not going to achieve anything other than people being driven into even deeper poverty from which no recovery is possible, such as homelessness.

People who are on the dole long term, all a lot of them need is a fair hearing in relation to a job opportunity and a bit of encouragement, and there is no reason on this earth why the process of getting people back to work cannot be a little bit more human and engaging, rather than the disgraceful antics that are being envisaged by this minister.

murphaph

Erper wrote: »

Considering that lots of populations lives from dole, i wouldnt be surprised if some problems come with it, like rage, fights,steeling, etc. its gona be baaaad....
They r trying something like in germany.
Back there if u loose/ get fired u can stay up to 6months on dole, after that u get a 1e from social walfare...

Misinformation.

Germany has ArbeitelosengeldI and ArbeitslosengeldII ("unemployment money-they call it what it is!). ArbeitslosengeldI is app 60% of your final salary (averaged over a year I think and capped at 100k or something like that so a guy earning a million a year wouldn't receive €600k in benefits) which you receive without means test for up to 12 months (18 if you are over 58).

If you haven't found a job by then you drop down to ArbeitslosengeldII (known as HartzIV) which is app €360 per month in cash benefits, with rent being paid in a modest apartment (floor space limitations as well as price limitations apply) and health insurance covered also. This is means tested however so if you have any significant assets, you must first liquidate them before being entitled to anything.

YOU MUST PROVE YOUR ATTEMPTS AT SEEKING WORK to continue receiving Hartz IV and you must cooperate with the welfare officers and attend training courses etc. if requested. If you cannot find work they can and do find work for you. I know a girl who was unemployed and was requested to work in the welfare office itself until she found work she wanted to do! They may also assign you to help the local council with spring cleaning or in the parks department picking up litter, trimming hedges etc. You can always see these people as they don't get a "proper" council workers boiler suit, just a dayglo vest usually. Refusing to take this work will result in the already meagre €360 being reduced. There is no lower limit-they can and do completely cut people off from benefits (including housing benefits) if they totally fail to cooperate with the system and these people then become homeless and must rely on shelters and charity and or begging etc.

There's a clearly defined path in Germany that you don't want to start going down, hence people will usually take any work if they can find it. Germany used to have a very different system that enabled people to stay on very comfortable benefits almost indefinitely. The country realised it was slowly bleeding money and the system was radically overhauled, and it was overhauled at a time of relatively high unemployment (ca. 10%) precisely because it was bankrupting the country.

Maura74

Unemployment of young people in UK is the highest since god knows when. There are no jobs around for these young people. Highly education people with degree are taking jobs in pound shops and alike. Government are targeting disable people and trying to get back into work, give me a break, which company is going to take on a disable person that needs to have time off for appointments etc. If there is money from government to take on disabled people or young unemployed people then they will be taken by big retailers and large supermarkets, but there will be no real job at the end of the term that is when the money runs out by government.

I think things are going to get very bad before it get better in UK as well the eruo zone. UK is blaming the Euro zone what a get out for them.

UK economy has shrinks by 0.2% in the last 3 months, outlook not good.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15747103

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16715080