Arthur the Church Guy

EGAR

My son used to call the local priest that because he misunderstood the *Father* thing when he was in Junior Infants which, of course, caused a lot of laughter when he told us at home that Arthur the Church Guy had been visiting the school.

We live very rural and the choice of schools for the small man were very limited. The N.S. he is going to is under the patronage of the RC. I made it clear I did not want my child instructed in Religion in any shape or form and have fought an uphill battle ever since. But I wont bore you with the details.

The reason I am posting here is that I am refusing to call the priest Father XYZ as I am a. not religious in any shape or form and b. already have a father. I call him Mr. XYZ to which he is objecting, insisting I call him Father XYZ.

TBH, I am getting a bit sick of it at this stage. I do not wish to offend anyone but I do not wish to call him Father.

Any advise on how to *play* this?

Michael Nugent

Wow. That’s astonishing. In what circumstances does this arise?

I would just tell him politely to cop on to himself.

Or else tell him you will call him Father if he calls you Super Father.

MagicMarker

Hmm, could this be a brand never before seen topic in the A&A forum?

It's an interesting one alright, tbh I don't even like using Mr/Ms/Mrs, if I know someone's name then I'll address them by it, regardless of their position.

muppeteer

I think there are some protected titles such as doctor, chartered engineer etc. which you can't use the title unless you have earned it. I've never heard of anyone ever trying to say that they have to be addressed by their title though, even if Father was one of those protected titles.

That said it doesn't seem like a particularly important battle to be fighting. Could almost be seen as being a little petty not addressing someone as they wish to be addressed.

Anywho, you can always give in and use the "father" prefix like this:)

Ghost Buster

My son is in the same situation schooling wise. He just refers to the school de facto chairman / priest as 'the man with no job'.
Ah bless;)

Ghost Buster

EGAR wrote: »

My son used to call the local priest that because he misunderstood the *Father* thing when he was in Junior Infants which, of course, caused a lot of laughter when he told us at home that Arthur the Church Guy had been visiting the school.

We live very rural and the choice of schools for the small man were very limited. The N.S. he is going to is under the patronage of the RC. I made it clear I did not want my child instructed in Religion in any shape or form and have fought an uphill battle ever since. But I wont bore you with the details.

The reason I am posting here is that I am refusing to call the priest Father XYZ as I am a. not religious in any shape or form and b. already have a father. I call him Mr. XYZ to which he is objecting, insisting I call him Father XYZ.

TBH, I am getting a bit sick of it at this stage. I do not wish to offend anyone but I do not wish to call him Father.

Any advise on how to *play* this?

Compromise. Call him 'Daddy'

EGAR

muppeteer wrote: »

I think there are some protected titles such as doctor, chartered engineer etc. which you can't use the title unless you have earned it. I've never heard of anyone ever trying to say that they have to be addressed by their title though, even if Father was one of those protected titles.

That said it doesn't seem like a particularly important battle to be fighting. Could almost be seen as being a little petty not addressing someone as they wish to be addressed.

Anywho, you can always give in and use the "father" prefix like this:)

Lol, at the rest of your post but the *little petty* remark. I do not think it is petty as a non-RC person to refuse to address him in his *status* as a priest thus recognising something I neither believe in nor endorse.

I hold a PhD but I do not use it in everyday life as it is not important to me nor would I try and force people to use it when addressing me.

However, his *title* is solely bound to his life as a RC priest and he is very insistent that I use this title. That said, I am not going out of my way to meet him and if I do I try to avoid addressing him altogether but it is not always possible.

I sometimes wondered about it, but then I thought about it like one of those earned titles, like doctor etc
and i think of it more as a reflection on their religious status rather than my own

Fortyniner

I think it's a fair challenge. He can either try and persuade you to change your mind or ignore you completely - that's about it, I guess, unless he goes nuclear and condemns you from his pulpit.

You may welcome the opportunity to argue his case with him - do you recognise the authority that gave him this title etc..

It can be quite shocking for someone who has assumed such a position of unquestioned superiority to be taken to task about it.

He can't insist on it, no matter what he is used to.

Any development would be interesting for the rest of us!

Helix

id have no problem calling a priest father if that's the salutation he preferred. same as calling a doctor doctor, or a judge judge. that's his job, and in his job he gets a title

Ellis Dee

Funny, I always thought I was a pretty hardline atheist, but I have no problem addressing a priest as "father", an imam as "imam" or a rabbi as "rabbi". It's just politeness and does not mean - to them or to me - that I am recognising any spiritual authority on their part. Anyway, I spend a lot of time in Finland and the majority of the clergy I know there - mostly from the dog park - are women and I either address them by their first name, after we have gotten to know each other better, or as "pastori".

Anyway, who wouldn't want to get on the right side of a sky pilot who looks like this one?;);)

GLaDOS

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Anyway, who wouldn't want to get on the right side of a sky pilot who looks like this one?;);)

I prefer my women less pixelated

muppeteer

EGAR wrote: »

Lol, at the rest of your post but the *little petty* remark. I do not think it is petty as a non-RC person to refuse to address him in his *status* as a priest thus recognising something I neither believe in nor endorse.

I hold a PhD but I do not use it in everyday life as it is not important to me nor would I try and force people to use it when addressing me.

However, his *title* is solely bound to his life as a RC priest and he is very insistent that I use this title. That said, I am not going out of my way to meet him and if I do I try to avoid addressing him altogether but it is not always possible.

True, he probably shouldn't be trying to make you use the title if you don't want to. But again it seems a little rude from both sides to me, considering that title will be a badge of honor to him. To everyone else it will be a statement of a position in a,... less than prestigious club.
His insisting you use the title seems like he might be trying to wind you up. If he is then fight fire with fire:)

Sarky

Find his first name, dispense with the Mr.

robindch

EGAR wrote: »

Any advise on how to *play* this?

Offer him a choice between "Uncle" and "Fr Arthur", pronounced "farter".

EGAR

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Funny, I always thought I was a pretty hardline atheist, but I have no problem addressing a priest as "father", an imam as "imam" or a rabbi as "rabbi". It's just politeness and does not mean - to them or to me - that I am recognising any spiritual authority on their part.

I am not a hardline anything, I simply do not believe in *titles* given by religious beliefs.

Dades

On the one hand, it doesn't bother me calling priests "Father X" or whatever, on the other hand if he's being a dick about things to do with your child's school, I can see why you'd be reluctant.

The Lorax

Don't see the problem with calling him Father, TBH. I call our local priest "Father Des" when I see him around - I'm not religious at all, but he's a nice guy and that's his job title in his own world. Whether or not I believe in what he does is irrelevant, IMO. It's just a simple courtesy & respect.
I'm as atheist as the next guy; I love reading about atheism; I try to educate myself to be prepared for debates with theists; I resent & hate religion - but I can't imagine I'd ever being this petty & hardline over someone so stupid. It just strikes me as such a waste of time & energy to be bothered with such a non issue.

Dades wrote: »

On the one hand, it doesn't bother me calling priests "Father X" or whatever, on the other hand if he's being a dick about things to do with your child's school, I can see why you'd be reluctant.

Yeah, I'd agree with this. I'd never call anyone a specific title just because they asked me to - I'd do it as a courtesy to any nice person; but I'd never feel obliged to. And if they were a d*ck, they could f*ck right off.

lynski

i would call the local priest father, even though he is a total a**; actually each time i do have to meet him (not often) i introduce myself again and ask his name, p****s him off no end hehehe.
the priest at home I call Father Willie, again hehehe, so does everyone. he is the 'dont be worshiping trees' priest.
yeah no worries, pastor, doctor, rev, etc they do go to school for a long time to earn their titles and they have so little else in this life.
No problems with it.
for me it is kinda like i dont challenge believers if they are not challenging me kinda thing. i always say well i am an atheist, but unless they are trying to get me to pray i dont say all that stuff u believe is just madeup you know that right?
live and let live.

EGAR

The Lorax wrote: »

Don't see the problem with calling him Father, TBH. I call our local priest "Father Des" when I see him around - I'm not religious at all, but he's a nice guy and that's his job title in his own world. Whether or not I believe in what he does is irrelevant, IMO. It's just a simple courtesy & respect.
I'm as atheist as the next guy; I love reading about atheism; I try to educate myself to be prepared for debates with theists; I resent & hate religion - but I can't imagine I'd ever being this petty & hardline over someone so stupid. It just strikes me as such a waste of time & energy to be bothered with such a non issue.



Yeah, I'd agree with this. I'd never call anyone a specific title just because they asked me to - I'd do it as a courtesy to any nice person; but I'd never feel obliged to. And if they were a d*ck, they could f*ck right off.

Ah, you see but it IS an issue for me, obviously, or else I would not have posted here and asked for advice. I am glad that you see as stupid what is important to me but I fail to see what hardline has to do with it.

The Lorax

EGAR wrote: »

Ah, you see but it IS an issue for me, obviously, or else I would not have posted here and asked for advice. I am glad that you see as stupid what is important to me but I fail to see what hardline has to do with it.

Well if the guy is an as*hole, then f*ck him.

My point is that a nice person is a nice person regardless of their beliefs, and if he's a nice person I'll show him the respect of using his occupational title. I wouldn't refuse on purely religious or belief grounds. Creating friction where there doesn't need to be any - that's one of the things I detest about religion!
I'll call you Maestro if that's what you do, you prefer to be called that, and you're a decent person. I figure 'why the hell not?' It makes no difference to anything.
And similarly, a d*ck is a d*ck regardless of their beliefs, and they can get f*cked whether they're a Doctor or a Priest. But religion should never come into it is my point; whether or not they're good people should be the deciding factor in whether you want to show them that respect or not.

robindch

^^^ Lorax, cut out the scummy language.

Ta.

fisgon

The Lorax wrote: »

religion - but I can't imagine I'd ever being this petty & hardline over someone so stupid. It just strikes me as such a waste of time & energy to be bothered with such a non issue.

.

I don't see this as being petty and hardline. It's not something I would have thought of (though in fairness I have almost no contact with priests of any kind), but I can see the rationale, and kind of admire it in a perverse kind of way. It's like saying "I have zero consideration for your church and your made up title". Someone calling themselves 'father' is, when you think about it, an assumption of a position of responsibitily over people, of authority, someone who must be obeyed.

I taught an evening class last year, had a youngish priest in it, I just called him by his first name, he didn't seem to mind, though I didn't give him the chance to mind in fairness.

I would second someone else's suggestion. Call him by his first name. Assuming he has one, do they get these removed after getting the collar?

The Lorax

fisgon wrote: »

It's not something I would have thought of

Exactly; because it's a waste of time bothering with such petty nuances. There are far more significant issues to be arguing/discussing/debating with a religious person than their correct title. It just seems like doing it for the sake of it, because 'you're an atheist'. Creating friction where there really doesn't need to be any. I'll argue with a theist when it's time; but I have to let the stupid stuff slide lest I be seen picking at every little thing, which in turn lessens the impact of any relevant points I may choose to raise at any stage.
If we drive by a church and my mother-in-law blesses herself, I'm not going to start asking her why, and tell her she's being stupid. I'd burn myself out picking at these everyday small things; I choose my battles carefully... like if an old person (in-law, etc) tells a kid (my nephew/niece, etc) they better do X or else God/Jesus will X - then I'll interject & call bullsh*t.

Someone calling themselves 'father' is, when you think about it, an assumption of a position of responsibitily over people, of authority, someone who must be obeyed.

I don't see it like that. It's just an occupational title when I use it - but I'm not disagreeing with you either. It's down to interpretation. I've no doubt the origins are likely of a dominant nature.

Nailz

I've have no real input that may help you OP, but I think that's quite shocking that he is insisting that he be called by that title, I bet you don't see gentlemen with knightships demanding they be called "Sir whatever".

It is also a bit of a departure for me as the last priest who was over area (clerically speaking) back home insisted again being call Father or it being used as a pre-fix. Thought that was oddly cool.

im invisible

You'll address me by my proper title, you little bollix

strobe

I know a couple of priests. I call them by their first names. Because they're their names. I can kind of understand where people are coming from in regards to 'you call a judge Judge and a doctor Doctor', but well, I would (and have) called a judge, Judge when I was in court. I might also call a doctor, Doctor if they preferred, while they were actually doctoring me (all though I can't imagine any doctor I know ever requesting this). So maybe I'd call a priest Father, if he requested so and was in the throws of conducting some kind of religious wizardry for me at the time. But just meeting them walking down the street or something?.... ehhh no. It's a title of deference by design. I think we've had quite enough of that silly carry on in this country, ta very much.

Peregrinus

There’s very little rhyme or reason to titles and forms of address.

“Mr” is a variant of “master”, and calling someone “Mr”, strictly speaking, implies that he is master of someone, or somewhere, which usually he isn’t. “Mrs” is an abbreviation for “mistress”, and the less said about that, the better.

We call medical doctors “doctor” even though, usually, they don’t have a doctorate. We call surgeons “Mr” even though they are medically qualified, and often have a doctorate as well. PhDs are addressed as “doctor” in the university and “Mr” or “Ms” outside it. And so on.

Given that this is all pretty arbitrary and inconsistent, I have to say that disputes about it strike me as petty. In general, it is polite to address people as they wish to be addressed, and petty to refuse to do so. But it is also petty to make an issue of insisting on a particular form of address. When both sides in an argument are being petty, the prospect of an amicable resolution is remote.

fisgon

I remember Ian Paisley always used to refuse to refer to priests as 'Father'. He'd call them 'Mister'. Not sure if this is a helpful contribution

Penn

Two of my granduncles were priests and we referred to them both as Father (First name), even just in regular conversation.

On the one hand, I see no issue with it. It's like referring to your teachers as 'Sir' or 'Miss'. Hell, even when I meet my teachers having left school nearly 10 years ago, my mind instantly goes to 'Sir' or 'Miss'.

On the other hand, if he's being a dick about it....

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Compromise. Call him 'Daddy'

Michael Nugent

The Lorax wrote: »

Exactly; because it's a waste of time bothering with such petty nuances. There are far more significant issues to be arguing/discussing/debating with a religious person than their correct title.

I agree, I wouldn't bother debating it with him. I would just tell him - once - and politely - to cop himself on.

The Lorax wrote: »

If we drive by a church and my mother-in-law blesses herself, I'm not going to start asking her why, and tell her she's being stupid. I'd burn myself out picking at these everyday small things; I choose my battles carefully...

That's not quite the right analogy here, though. Your mother-in-law is just minding her own business, not interfering in yours. The priest here is insisting that other people, who are not members of his religion, call him by the title that they use within his religion.

Beruthiel

EGAR wrote: »

I call him Mr. XYZ to which he is objecting, insisting I call him Father XYZ.

The fact he got thick over it is pretty pathetic. After all, you were still being polite to him.
I'd go with what has been suggested already.
Ask him if he would prefer his first name or that you continue with Mr X. Cos those are his two options.

UDP

OP, how does the priest address you? Mr. EGAR or just Tom or what?

If he calls you Tom then what right has he to ask you to call him Father X. If he calls you Mr. EGAR then you can call him Mr. X. If he really wants you to call him Fr. X then ask him to call you King EGAR, ruler of <enter_you_address_here> and "Your highness".

While many think it is petty I think it is just another small issue that should be addressed in order to bring down the stature of the RC church in Ireland. There are a lot of small things that the RC do, how they are treated/What they get away with that when combined give them this "special" place in society. If you question any one of them then you have people coming out saying "whats the big deal?" - its only x. The problem is that when all those small things are combined then it gives the RC power and that "special" place in society.

Addressing priests by special titles makes them think they are in a special place in society. I would never make a big deal of it, which I dont think the OP did - it was the priest that made the big deal out of it.

TBH before this I never thought of not addressing a priest as "Father x" just out of habit but I will make an effort to use Mr. X or just their first name from now on. Will see if their sense of stature will kick in like Arthur's.

Doctor DooM

EGAR wrote: »

I hold a PhD but I do not use it in everyday life as it is not important to me nor would I try and force people to use it when addressing me.

Why don't you? If he insists on being called father, insist on him calling you doctor.

vibe666

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Why don't you? If he insists on being called father, insist on him calling you doctor.

also, change your last name to Sexy, so he has to call you "Doctor Sexy" every time he speaks to you. :pac:

I dare say he'll stop making such a fuss about the "Father" thing after that.

Penn

vibe666 wrote: »

also, change your last name to Sexy, so he has to call you "Doctor Sexy" every time he speaks to you. :pac:

I dare say he'll stop making such a fuss about the "Father" thing after that.

"...and here comes the Sexy kids.... Oh f*ck..."

sensibleken

Call him Fathead!

EGAR

UDP wrote: »

OP, how does the priest address you? Mr. EGAR or just Tom or what?

If he calls you Tom then what right has he to ask you to call him Father X. If he calls you Mr. EGAR then you can call him Mr. X. If he really wants you to call him Fr. X then ask him to call you King EGAR, ruler of <enter_you_address_here> and "Your highness".

While many think it is petty I think it is just another small issue that should be addressed in order to bring down the stature of the RC church in Ireland. There are a lot of small things that the RC do, how they are treated/What they get away with that when combined give them this "special" place in society. If you question any one of them then you have people coming out saying "whats the big deal?" - its only x. The problem is that when all those small things are combined then it gives the RC power and that "special" place in society.

Addressing priests by special titles makes them think they are in a special place in society. I would never make a big deal of it, which I dont think the OP did - it was the priest that made the big deal out of it.

TBH before this I never thought of not addressing a priest as "Father x" just out of habit but I will make an effort to use Mr. X or just their first name from now on. Will see if their sense of stature will kick in like Arthur's.

I am a woman which I think adds to his insisting I address him as *Father* because from simple observance I can tell that all women treat him deferential and walk on eggshells around him, so to speak.

He calls me *XYZ Mom* which is really ridiculous as he does that even in the local shop as in *Oh hello, XYZ's Mom.*.

I will go with the first name from now on and will greet him as Patrick next time I see him. And then we will see how he reacts.

Thank you for all your input, much appreciated.

Penn

EGAR wrote: »

He calls me *XYZ Mom* which is really ridiculous as he does that even in the local shop as in *Oh hello, XYZ's Mom.*.

So he greets you using your kid's name (that's creepy enough in itself. If he knows your kids name, he knows your kids last name, which means he could at least call you Mrs.XYZ if he has trouble remembering your first name) and gives out to you for not calling him Father XXX.

Seems like a nice man...

Zombrex

EGAR wrote: »

TBH, I am getting a bit sick of it at this stage. I do not wish to offend anyone but I do not wish to call him Father.

Any advise on how to *play* this?

Tell him to go away and read the freaking Bible :P

Matthew 23
8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

If you want to read the Catholic Church's "its all about the CONTEXT!!!" excuse it is here. Needless to say it makes no sense at all.

Beruthiel

EGAR wrote: »

He calls me *XYZ Mom* which is really ridiculous as he does that even in the local shop as in *Oh hello, XYZ's Mom.*.

That's ridiculous.
Tell him to call you Mary or Mrs. XX from now on.

strobe

Peregrinus wrote: »

In general, it is polite to address people as they wish to be addressed, and petty to refuse to do so.

I should like to be addressed by the title 'My One True Lord and Saviour' from now on so, if you would be so kind Per.

ShooterSF

If I were you I'd insist on doctor!

Failing that why not use the Universal Life Church website that let's you become "ordained" free of charge (You don't even need a religious belief!) and pretty easy I think. Then demand he calls you Minister XYZ...

joseph brand

strobe wrote: »

I should like to be addressed by the title 'My One True Lord and Saviour' from now on so, if you would be so kind Per.

Now THAT'S funny.

@OP: Address him as Father whatever, but he must address you as Doctor [All three names, maybe four] and you could even throw in the letters after your name. He'd hate that.

vibe666

EGAR wrote: »

He calls me *XYZ Mom* which is really ridiculous as he does that even in the local shop as in *Oh hello, XYZ's Mom.*

next time he does that, reply with "ho, hello there jesus's (jesii?) mouthpiece" and see how he likes it.

Sarky

Bonus points for accidentally saying codpiece instead.

seamus

As far as I can tell, the basis behind the "Father" title is primarily down to the idea that the priest is the leader of the community, tender of the flock, protecting, loving and guiding the people as if he were their father.

Thus it seems not only technically correct but ethically right to not use this title for a person if you do not recognise them as occupying that position.

Otherwise you may as well refer to chiropractors as "doctor" or creationists as "professor".

Personally I thankfully don't have much cause to converse with clergy, but for a long time now, even back to when I was in a catholic school, I used to just call them by their first name and I was never corrected. I'll only refer to "father so-and-so" if using their first name isn't enough for someone to know who I'm talking about.

marienbad

EGAR wrote: »

I am a woman which I think adds to his insisting I address him as *Father* because from simple observance I can tell that all women treat him deferential and walk on eggshells around him, so to speak.

He calls me *XYZ Mom* which is really ridiculous as he does that even in the local shop as in *Oh hello, XYZ's Mom.*.

I will go with the first name from now on and will greet him as Patrick next time I see him. And then we will see how he reacts.

Thank you for all your input, much appreciated.

I was going to say call him father as we would any other title , that is until I read the above , now I would say use ''that fcuking moron'' and move on.

kylith

vibe666 wrote: »

next time he does that, reply with "ho, hello there jesus's (jesii?) mouthpiece" and see how he likes it.

Jesus's would be right. Jesii would mean that you had more than one Jesus. Franchise, maybe?

dixiefly

EGAR wrote: »

My son used to call the local priest that because he misunderstood the *Father* thing when he was in Junior Infants which, of course, caused a lot of laughter when he told us at home that Arthur the Church Guy had been visiting the school.

We live very rural and the choice of schools for the small man were very limited. The N.S. he is going to is under the patronage of the RC. I made it clear I did not want my child instructed in Religion in any shape or form and have fought an uphill battle ever since. But I wont bore you with the details.

The reason I am posting here is that I am refusing to call the priest Father XYZ as I am a. not religious in any shape or form and b. already have a father. I call him Mr. XYZ to which he is objecting, insisting I call him Father XYZ.

TBH, I am getting a bit sick of it at this stage. I do not wish to offend anyone but I do not wish to call him Father.

Any advise on how to *play* this?

First of all I am flabbergasted that he is so arrogant and small minded to insist on a form of address when it is obvious that you are not a christian.

However, I also think that you are quite obstinate and petty to start changing the way you address him in the first place and to continue to do so after he asked you to cease.

So, as they say, there are two of you in it and, I would suspect, that you both have similar personalities.

Also, him calling you xyz mum is even more crazy.

EGAR

dixiefly wrote: »

First of all I am flabbergasted that he is so arrogant and small minded to insist on a form of address when it is obvious that you are not a christian.

However, I also think that you are quite obstinate and petty to start changing the way you address him in the first place and to continue to do so after he asked you to cease.

So, as they say, there are two of you in it and, I would suspect, that you both have similar personalities.

Also, him calling you xyz mum is even more crazy.

I wont respond to your first two paragraphs as they are contradictory and thus represent an oxymoron.

As for similar personalities, yes, you are assuming and since you know neither him nor me, you just keep telling yourself that you are right.

As I have written before: I do not go out of my way to meet him, I have always been polite to him on the occasions I have met him.

But thank you for your input, however, as they say, remotely helpful.