Was the Substitution of Oxo the turning of tide on Wenger?

efb

Never, saw that before, the whole crowd and the captain openly questioned his substitution, I feel his days are now numbered.

mayordenis

I know Arshavin is not at top form and Oxlade was having a good game but jesus christ it was a massive overreaction and completely out of line.

redzerdrog

saw somewhere earlier that you could visably see rvp saying ah no when arshavin was coming on. is this true? anyone got a clip?

killwill

I would ask since when is it ok to openly question your manager like that?

redzerdog, it is on the video of Chamberlain on the Arsenal thread. It was more about taking Chamberlain of though, not about Arshavin coming on, I think

ShamoBuc

Saw that on Motd2 . A serious overreaction by the fans I thought, some shouting "you don't know what you're doing" etc.

kryogen

Fans overreacting is all.

pistolpetes11

kryogen wrote: »

Fans overreacting is all.

Fans and RVP over reacting then,

RVP clearly mouthed the words " ah No " and the look of disgust on his face said more than the words .

Made even worse by the fact that Arshavin was so poor for the Utd second goal.

The Kid was a massive outlet for the gunners and I personally think it was a mistake , everytime he got on the ball the crowd upped the level a notch in turn giving the whole team a boost .

It reminded me when Rafa was on his last legs at Liverpool taking off his top players to give them a rest or some rubbish like that before the job was finished ,
next thing the opposition score and you look toothless going forward cause you have already settled for the result

Squall19

redzerdrog wrote: »

saw somewhere earlier that you could visably see rvp saying ah no when arshavin was coming on. is this true? anyone got a clip?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyNpkcSF8xk

kryogen

pistolpetes11 wrote: »

Fans and RVP over reacting then,

RVP clearly mouthed the words " ah No " and the look of disgust on his face said more than the words .

Made even worse by the fact that Arshavin was so poor for the Utd second goal.

The Kid was a massive outlet for the gunners and I personally think it was a mistake , everytime he got on the ball the crowd upped the level a notch in turn giving the whole team a boost .

It reminded me when Rafa was on his last legs at Liverpool taking off his top players to give them a rest or some rubbish like that before the job was finished ,
next thing the opposition score and you look toothless going forward cause you have already settled for the result

Right, so you know for a fact the RVP was expressing displeasure with Arshavin coming on rather then being annoyed that Oxo was coming off? fair play.

RVP would clearly want one of the better performers on the field wouldnt he? why would he be happy he was going off?

People can, do and will always see what they want from things, im not here to change your mind about it.

pistolpetes11

kryogen wrote: »

Right, so you know for a fact the RVP was expressing displeasure with Arshavin coming on rather then being annoyed that Oxo was coming off? fair play.

RVP would clearly want one of the better performers on the field wouldnt he? why would he be happy he was going off?

People can, do and will always see what they want from things, im not here to change your mind about it.

You going off on a tangent there , The OP is about the Ox getting taken off and that is funnily enough what the context of my post is about too.

RVP was clearly not happy with Ox being taken off , I merely mentioned Arshavin because he was so poor for Utd's second and he just happened to be the man to replace OX.

Squall19

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Saw that on Motd2 . A serious overreaction by the fans I thought, some shouting "you don't know what you're doing" etc.

It was in the heat of the game, we were back in it from the great work of OX and then the man takes him off, our best player.

It akin to taking Henry off when he was just after scoring in the Bernabeu, taking off Ronaldinho when just equalised against Chelsea in the champions league, you wouldn't do it!

It was an awful, terrible, mad decision by Wenger.

Worst was his comment after the game.

I've been a manager for 30 years and have made 50,000 substitutions. I do not have to justify every decision I make to you (the Press). I stand up for it"

That's the problem there.

He has no accountability.

Million of fans around the world want to ask him (and the same question that his captains wants to ask) and he says "who are you, I am Mr Wenger, i dont need to justify myself to anyone"

Yes you do Wenger, ous the fan's who pay your wages.

kryogen

Ok then to answer directly, the fans overreacted and so did RVP.

Both reactions are fairly understandable given the situation of the game.

kryogen

Players are quite often unhappy with a mangers decision, doesnt actually matter one bit.

Its the heat of the moment and most of the time it is forgotten about quickly but I certainly wouldnt want any of my players to be happy to be substituted

Wenger obviously thought the change had its merits, the result has proved him wrong.

The booing of the fans though understandable, is wrong to me.

LuckyLloyd

kryogen wrote: »

Players are quite often unhappy with a mangers decision, doesnt actually matter one bit.

Its the heat of the moment and most of the time it is forgotten about quickly but I certainly wouldnt want any of my players to be happy to be substituted

Wenger obviously thought the change had its merits, the result has proved him wrong.

The booing of the fans though understandable, is wrong to me.

I would disagree with you on this to some extent. I remember Gerrard doing something similar at St. Andrews in 2010 and I think it was bang out of order in both cases. You never saw Roy Keane question a decision by McCarthy on the pitch in the heat of battle. What does it say to Arshavin to see his Captain looking forlorn at him coming on? Whatever about the fans (who should be ****ing ashamed of themselves by the way), your Captain is your leader. That isn't leadership.

kryogen

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I would disagree with you on this to some extent. I remember Gerrard doing something similar at St. Andrews in 2010 and I think it was bang out of order in both cases. You never saw Roy Keane question a decision by McCarthy on the pitch in the heat of battle. What does it say to Arshavin to see his Captain looking forlorn at him coming on? Whatever about the fans (who should be ****ing ashamed of themselves by the way), your Captain is your leader. That isn't leadership.

Your dead right, I didnt clarify myself properly obviously, what I mean is that there are always going to be times when players disagree with a managers decision but displaying this disagreement on the pitch is never right imo. I can understand the frustrations of the players and the fans when they are in the midst of the passion that surrounds a big game but I dont excuse it.

I agree the fans should be ashamed of themselves and that RVP displayed no captain qualities whatsoever in this instance.

Openly displaying disrespect for your manager is never on, but every now and then something will slip with all the cameras at games these days. I can just get his frustration, Oxo was possibly the best player they had on the field, he was genuinely troubling our defense, so it didnt (still doesnt) seem to make sense to take him off.

But the manager had his reasons and that is that.

Fans are fans, but I cannot stand fans who get on their teams/managers back in big home games when what they are needed to do is to support and make the atmosphere as unpleasant as possible for the opponent, not for a member of your own team, Im sure Arshavin was crestfallen to hear the reaction he got, what kind of boost is that to a player coming on to try and make a difference?

gnfnrhead

kryogen wrote: »

Im sure Arshavin was crestfallen to hear the reaction he got, what kind of boost is that to a player coming on to try and make a difference?

I don't usually condone negative reactions towards your own players, but it can't make Arshavin play any worse. If anything, it might give him the kick up the arse he needs to start looking like he wants to be there. Wenger has faith in him, but no one else does, apparently not even his team mates anymore. He is usually awful with an odd game where he will be okay to good. Arshavin coming on will not make a positive difference to Arsenal in any way. The guy looks like he just isn't bothered putting the effort in most weeks.

Add in the fact that he replaced Chamberlain, who like you said was causing problems, and it isn't a shock that he got a negative reaction. He's been living on borrowed time for months now. I usually support our players longer than most, but even I would be happy to see the back of him now. It's a shame considering how good he can be when he puts the effort in.

kryogen

It can actually make him play worse and it will not help him play better.

RVP showing despair at the substitution may or may not have had anything to do with the player coming on, and everything to do with who was going off. It could simply be that he was disgusted at seeing Oxo withdrawn, I wouldnt be so sure he has no faith in Arshavin.

Booing a player before he even kicks a ball when you are supposed to support him is disgraceful. It is never going to be anything but counter productive, you expect to get negative reactions from opposition fans, but from your own? disgraceful.

Is Walcott playing much better then him? he is being derided by Arsenal fans left right and centre, but he isnt being booed like that is he?

Marty McFly

Im not condoning the fans behaviour its never right to boo ur own players or managers decision, but its just frustration boiling over. Arsenal fans are not happy at the momment and you cant blame them either.

Chamberlain was by far Arsenals best player anytime he got the ball we looked threatening going forward he looked like he could do some damage, the Wenger takes him off and we look flat, heads dropped before that sub was even complete it was game over and the fans knew it.


I couldnt belive he took Ox off and left the useless Walcott on the pitch.

The tide has slowly being turning against Wenger at Arsenal for a number of years and more and more people are turning the back on him, ill admit during the summer i called for his head and the summer before and so far hes proven me right, but I wouldnt disrespect him and sack him mid season ill give him to the end of the season and please god he can prove me wrong but I dont think it will happen. For a number of years now Arsenal have been in decline, now whether our transfer policy is down to Wenger or the board no one really knows but either way there all helping protect one another by leaving it in mystery. Changes are needed whether it be on the board, the coaching staff or the manager is the real question.

gnfnrhead

Arshavin couldn't really play any worse most weeks even if he tried to. A lot of the time he is our worst player. He was let away with it last season for the most part, but this season has been more of the same and the fans are sick of his lack of effort. If his performances reflected his game time, then fair enough, but his performances have been crap and he is still getting played most weeks and showing very little in terms of turning it around. Occasionally he'll have a decent game but they are few and far between. The negativity comes from the fact that he is still getting game time in spite of that. Chamberlain meanwhile had impressed each and every game but was rarely played, Arshavin was getting the games instead. He played today and was our best player until he was taken off.

van Persie's reaction could well have been for Chamberlain going off, but I doubt seeing Arshavin coming on was going to fill him with confidence.

Walcott isn't very far behind either, especially not with the attitude he seems to have developed where he appears to believe its everyone's fault but his own. He throws a little temper tantrum when things don't come off and blames whoever played the ball for him. The only reason he is getting away with it is because Arshavin has been worse. As soon as Arshavin isn't getting games, Walcott will hear all about it. He seems to believe the hype that surrounded him a few years ago and doesn't think he needs to do much more than show up and things will work out.

Both of them seriously need to up their games if they wish to have a career at Arsenal for much longer.

Revolution9

Van Persie's reaction, for those who don't have flash to watch the vid

RasTa

Sirsok

You have to think what this type of reaction is gonna have on arshavin, in fairness it would of compleately knocking the confidence out of him, how could anyone perform after hearing that....fair enough he's a pro, but no one could take that kind of reaction in their stride....all though it was not aimed directly at him it would be hard to take regardless and the fans should not have reacted like that , it was nothing but detrimental to the team

Xavi6

Cleverly disguised "Is he done?" thread is clever.

_blank_

Xavi6 wrote: »

Cleverly disguised "Is he done?" thread is clever.

It's legitimite enough though, players shouldn't be questioning their manager in such an open way during a match, it's a respect thing if nothing else, and if the captain is losing respect for his manager, something is clearly amiss.

efb

Should I have used the tired worn out cliche?

efb

I believe most of the negativity was for Oxo's leaving rather than Arshavin's appearance given that Theo was still on the field

Leiva

efb wrote: »

I believe most of the negativity was for Oxo's leaving rather than Arshavin's appearance given that Theo was still on the field

Exactly .
Arshavins name being brought into this discussion is a bit silly .

Oxo was an obvious threat and one of the only suppliers of quality pass to RVP . He got pissed off at seeing his supply getting taken off .

But still no excuse for the public show of disagreement .

LuckyLloyd

luvbulmers01 wrote: »

Im not condoning the fans behaviour its never right to boo ur own players or managers decision, but its just frustration boiling over. Arsenal fans are not happy at the momment and you cant blame them either.

Chamberlain was by far Arsenals best player anytime he got the ball we looked threatening going forward he looked like he could do some damage, the Wenger takes him off and we look flat, heads dropped before that sub was even complete it was game over and the fans knew it.

The fans reaction wouldn't have helped the players to lift themselves and push on though, would it. And what else are the fans there for? It was a poor tactical decision by Wenger, but the crowd in the Emirates compounded its affect on proceedings.

I get that Arsenal fans would prefer to be doing better in the league but, frankly, if this is how they intend to behave when times are tough they aren't deserving of a whole lot better. 20 minutes to go against ****ing Manchester United (you know, the evil empire) at 1 - 1 and well in the game and the fans communicate that the game is up, and that the player coming on shouldn't even bother. That's an unfortunate sense of entitlement imo.

Orando Broom

mixednuts wrote: »

Exactly .
Arshavins name being brought into this discussion is a bit silly .

Oxo was an obvious threat and one of the only suppliers of quality pass to RVP . He got pissed off at seeing his supply getting taken off .

But still no excuse for the public show of disagreement .

Chamberlain himself was extremely disappointed to be taken off. You could tell by his interview. Obviously he wasn't going to come out and say it directly.

Arshavin is a complete waste of space but if I were an Arsenal fan I'd be looking at my defernders for the second goal, not a playmaker. Where was Vermalen?

G.K.

So you say Vermalen should have left his man to mark the RB, when marking the RB was the job of the LW (Arshavin)?

Orando Broom

G.K. wrote: »

So you say Vermalen should have left his man to mark the RB, when marking the RB was the job of the LW (Arshavin)?

No. He was never marking his man in the first place. As the ball is played out to Valencia and he controls it, Park (I think) peels off Vermalen's shoulder. Vermalen stops marking a player at this point. Valencia ghosts past Arshavin and travels into the box. Vermalen is now in no man's land. He is flat footed feet side by side. To compound this Song jumps across like a 5 year old jumping out from behind a couch and never engages Valencia. In fact the only person who continues to track Valencia is Arshavin. The fact that he never gets a solid challange in can be down to the fact he's not a natural defender. The two others abdicated their primary roles.

Marty McFly

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The fans reaction wouldn't have helped the players to lift themselves and push on though, would it. And what else are the fans there for? It was a poor tactical decision by Wenger, but the crowd in the Emirates compounded its affect on proceedings.

I get that Arsenal fans would prefer to be doing better in the league but, frankly, if this is how they intend to behave when times are tough they aren't deserving of a whole lot better. 20 minutes to go against ****ing Manchester United (you know, the evil empire) at 1 - 1 and well in the game and the fans communicate that the game is up, and that the player coming on shouldn't even bother. That's an unfortunate sense of entitlement imo.

Like I said I dont condone the fans reaction but I can understand it, its frutration boiling over from the fans who are starting to get sick of the team there watching, and its not just about league position its about the lack of investment, the selling of Fabregas for peanuts to barcelona, letting the likes of Flamini go fo nothing, letting Nasri force our hand and possibly Van Persie again this year and why are these players all shipping out because they see the exact same things the fans see, and know its a club in freefall at the momment.

Once again I dont think the fans were booing Arshavin yeh hes been getting guff along with Walcott from the fans but never been booed coming on, the fans reaction like Van Persies was aimed at the fact Chamberlain was coming off who was our man of the match why take off your only threatening looking player at 1-1 and I dont buy the excuse Wenger dished out if that was the case Van Persie would have been aware of it.

Orando Broom wrote: »

No. He was never marking his man in the first place. As the ball is played out to Valencia and he controls it, Park (I think) peels off Vermalen's shoulder. Vermalen stops marking a player at this point. Valencia ghosts past Arshavin and travels into the box. Vermalen is now in no man's land. He is flat footed feet side by side. To compound this Song jumps across like a 5 year old jumping out from behind a couch and never engages Valencia. In fact the only person who continues to track Valencia is Arshavin. The fact that he never gets a solid challange in can be down to the fact he's not a natural defender. The two others abdicated their primary roles.

Once again this comes back to transfer policy Wenger admitted a month ago it would be foolish to drop points because we dont have any natural full backs but what has been doen to rectify this in the transfer window? Nothing and now 3 losses later. Arsenals play relys a lot on our full backs helping out with attacking options and we havent had that, then add in the fact weve been playing our best cb out of position and another cb at rb who both look a bit lost out there and its not helping matters once again this falls on either Wenger or the board but thanks to the fog they put in font of themelves no one knows quite whos at fault.

Samich

RVP and the fans were right. Oxo was playing great, busting the gut for the team and wasn't looking tired or anything.

Awful decision to take him off. That's what you want to see, a young fella going flat out for his team.

Had he stayed on and got a draw oxo would be talked about today more than he is, now it's a loss for Arsenal and oxo his impact is now deemed meaningless.

inmyday

Massive overreaction...

Why are the fans not giving out about RVP missing the sitter (I obviously know hes world class and their best player but he had a chance to get the winner). Also the Ramsey chance.
And I would not completely blame arshavin for the goal, where was the cover? he got skinned badly and then noone covered and who was marking Welbeck?

You cant blame the defeat on one player. Arsenal fans need to cop on! Hindsight is a wonderful thing, coulda, woulda, shoulda.
Get over it, united are a better team at the moment.

efb

inmyday wrote: »

Massive overreaction...

Why are the fans not giving out about RVP missing the sitter (I obviously know hes world class and their best player but he had a chance to get the winner). Also the Ramsey chance.
And I would not completely blame arshavin for the goal, where was the cover? he got skinned badly and then noone covered and who was marking Welbeck?

You cant blame the defeat on one player. Arsenal fans need to cop on! Hindsight is a wonderful thing, coulda, woulda, shoulda.
Get over it, united are a better team at the moment.

United has nothing got to do with the discussion

amacachi

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The fans reaction wouldn't have helped the players to lift themselves and push on though, would it. And what else are the fans there for? It was a poor tactical decision by Wenger, but the crowd in the Emirates compounded its affect on proceedings.

I get that Arsenal fans would prefer to be doing better in the league but, frankly, if this is how they intend to behave when times are tough they aren't deserving of a whole lot better. 20 minutes to go against ****ing Manchester United (you know, the evil empire) at 1 - 1 and well in the game and the fans communicate that the game is up, and that the player coming on shouldn't even bother. That's an unfortunate sense of entitlement imo.

Just stand and clap politely so?

They weren't communicating that the game was up, they were express disgust (and it's completely fair) that the useless Walcott was staying on while the excellent Oxo was coming off for the Walcott-esque Arshavin. Now you can pontificate about supporting the team and all the rest of the "proper fans" bull****, if you'd had to support a team with Arshavin and Walcott in it you wouldn't be saying the same. Those two players are useless and have been for a coupla of years now.
When Arsenal lost 8-2 ya could still hear the away fans on the TV, they supported the team as they should on a freak result. When someone as useless as Walcott is let stay on the pitch in a game like yesterday, that's when the fans are right to deride the management.

inmyday

inmyday wrote: »

Massive overreaction...

Why are the fans not giving out about RVP missing the sitter (I obviously know hes world class and their best player but he had a chance to get the winner). Also the Ramsey chance.
And I would not completely blame arshavin for the goal, where was the cover? he got skinned badly and then noone covered and who was marking Welbeck?

You cant blame the defeat on one player. Arsenal fans need to cop on! Hindsight is a wonderful thing, coulda, woulda, shoulda.
Get over it, united are a better team at the moment.

People aren't blaming Arshavin, they're giving out that Oxo (our best performer) was taken off.

inmyday

efb wrote: »

United has nothing got to do with the discussion

True, but the defeat cant be blamed on a substitution.

And fans questioning Wenger is a mistake. If he was to leave/ sacked by the summer, I fail to see a manager that could get Arsenal to top 4 or better without big investment.

efb

inmyday wrote: »

True, but the defeat cant be blamed on a substitution.

And fans questioning Wenger is a mistake. If he was to leave/ sacked by the summer, I fail to see a manager that could get Arsenal to top 4 or better without big investment.

I am not saying the defeat was because of the substation - but it did have a baring on it, I'm talking about Wenger losing the fans / (dressing room?)

dfx-

AdamD wrote: »

People aren't blaming Arshavin, they're giving out that Oxo (our best performer) was taken off.

He could've also scored an own goal in the last 20 minutes. No fan or Wenger knew what was going to happen, we can't predict the future just yet. They should stick with getting behind the team that is out there, not the team they want there.

Leiva

efb wrote: »

I am not saying the defeat was because of the substation - but it did have a baring on it, I'm talking about Wenger losing the fans / (dressing room?)

Is that Thai betting ring up to their old tricks again and killing power to the stadium

efb

mixednuts wrote: »

Is that Chinese betting ring up to their old tricks again and killing power to the stadium

It was thai

stovelid

In my opinion, Oxo's stock has never been lower.

LuckyLloyd

amacachi wrote: »

Just stand and clap politely so?

They weren't communicating that the game was up, they were express disgust (and it's completely fair) that the useless Walcott was staying on while the excellent Oxo was coming off for the Walcott-esque Arshavin. Now you can pontificate about supporting the team and all the rest of the "proper fans" bull****, if you'd had to support a team with Arshavin and Walcott in it you wouldn't be saying the same. Those two players are useless and have been for a coupla of years now.
When Arsenal lost 8-2 ya could still hear the away fans on the TV, they supported the team as they should on a freak result. When someone as useless as Walcott is let stay on the pitch in a game like yesterday, that's when the fans are right to deride the management.

:pac:

I'll trade you Downing and Carroll for Walcott and Arshavin, deal?

I'm not saying he made a good decision or fans don't have a right to express disgust - but that when you have a shot against Utd with 20 minutes to go it simply isn't the time for it. That's a time to get behind the players 100%, and a failure to do so contributed to the defeat.

LuckyLloyd

Also, the 'they weren't booing Arshavin, they were booing the decision to sub Chamberlin off' stuff is a bit lol. Do you think Arshavin was able to pick through the nuances of loud boos and catcalls?

Mr Alan

The fans boo-ing Wenger/Arshavin yesterday are ****ing idiots.

The fans chanting "you don't know what you're doing" at Arsene Wenger are ****ing idiots.

There's very few actual football fans now, just loads of amateur wannabe managers who have an interest in a club. People like Arsene Wenger have forgotten more about football than any of the droolers who gave the abuse will ever know.

I'm not saying that managers (Wenger included) don't make mistakes, obviously they do. But the attitude fans have toward managers now, particularly managers who've had successful periods at thier club, disgusts me.

maximoose

I find the "Arsenal fans should be ashamed of themselves" lines in here a bit baffling, why should they be?! It was an awful decision, and they showed their disaproval.

Oxo looks like he is going to be a great player.

_blank_

stovelid wrote: »

In my opinion, Oxo's stock has never been lower.

BOOOOOOO!!!!!!

KeithAFC

Taking off potentially the best Arsenal player on the pitch for a guy who doesn't want to run, never mind make a difference. The crowd and Van Persie are entitled to be angry.

KeithAFC

inmyday wrote: »

True, but the defeat cant be blamed on a substitution.

And fans questioning Wenger is a mistake. If he was to leave/ sacked by the summer, I fail to see a manager that could get Arsenal to top 4 or better without big investment.

Plenty of managers could get Arsenal back to being competitive again. Rafa Benitez being one. Some one who knows how to build a solid back 4 and is tactically far better than Wenger.

LuckyLloyd

KeithAFC wrote: »

Plenty of managers could get Arsenal back to being competitive again. Rafa Benitez being one. Some one who knows how to build a solid back 4 and is tactically far better than Wenger.

Funnily enough I was thinking that earlier today. Would be a somewhat similar starting point to Liverpool in 2004.