septic tank/biocycle system problem

stefanrasiak

Can anyone offer advice on septic tanks? My tank has stopped making that slushing noise. Does this mean its not percolating. I have had the cover off the part where the electrical switch is (i think this is the blower?) thinking that something may have tripped following a recent power cut but the switch is turned on ok. Not sure of the manufacturer of this tank/bio system. can anyone help

The Engineer

stefanrasiak wrote: »

Not sure of the manufacturer of this tank/bio system

Can you post a picture of your system. I've seen lots of these systems over the years, so I may recognise it.

irishh_bob

i have a version of the bio- cycle , its called a bio - clear , my question is this , do theese tanks need to be emptied once a year like conventional concrete septic tanks ? , was recently told you dont empty them yet one of the toilets seems to be backed up lately which suggests the suir pipes are blocked

The Engineer

irishh_bob wrote: »

i have a version of the bio- cycle , its called a bio - clear , my question is this , do theese tanks need to be emptied once a year like conventional concrete septic tanks ? , was recently told you dont empty them yet one of the toilets seems to be backed up lately which suggests the suir pipes are blocked

Septic tanks do not need to be "emptied" once a year (instead of emtying, the tank should just be desludged - emptying is not generally required unless there is a bigger issue with the process, and in areas with high water tables emptying a tank can cause it to "pop" out of the ground). They need to be desludged when the sludge build-up has reached the point where it is impacting the process. This is based on the size of the tank and the number of people in the house / using the facility. In fact, desludging once a year can have a detrimental impact on the process, as anaerobic digestion, which normally kicks in after 2 years of sludge build-up, will not take place.

The exact same as above holds also true for secondary treatment systems (note: not "biocycles", as the biocycle system is a specific product). The desludging is just as critical for these systems. Whereas, with a septic tank, failure to desludge can lead to solids carrying over and clogging the percolation area, with secondary systems the solids and greases can damage the process - this can lead to backing-up, nasty smells, etc.

Regarding the sewer backing-up, is there an obstruction in the treatment plant or in the sewer? If the obstruction is in the treatment plant, it will be full of effluent, but if it is only in the sewer, the plant should be at normal working level.

A word to the wise…septic tanks and treatment plants are hazardous products / processes. There is a risk of drowning, noxious gases, biohazards, electric shock, etc. Carrying out modifications or inspections is best left to professionals, but at the very least, never undertake this work alone. Always let the tank / plant vent fully before poking your head in there…

irishh_bob

The Engineer wrote: »

Septic tanks do not need to be "emptied" once a year (instead of emtying, the tank should just be desludged - emptying is not generally required unless there is a bigger issue with the process, and in areas with high water tables emptying a tank can cause it to "pop" out of the ground). They need to be desludged when the sludge build-up has reached the point where it is impacting the process. This is based on the size of the tank and the number of people in the house / using the facility. In fact, desludging once a year can have a detrimental impact on the process, as anaerobic digestion, which normally kicks in after 2 years of sludge build-up, will not take place.

The exact same as above holds also true for secondary treatment systems (note: not "biocycles", as the biocycle system is a specific product). The desludging is just as critical for these systems. Whereas, with a septic tank, failure to desludge can lead to solids carrying over and clogging the percolation area, with secondary systems the solids and greases can damage the process - this can lead to backing-up, nasty smells, etc.

Regarding the sewer backing-up, is there an obstruction in the treatment plant or in the sewer? If the obstruction is in the treatment plant, it will be full of effluent, but if it is only in the sewer, the plant should be at normal working level.

A word to the wise…septic tanks and treatment plants are hazardous products / processes. There is a risk of drowning, noxious gases, biohazards, electric shock, etc. Carrying out modifications or inspections is best left to professionals, but at the very least, never undertake this work alone. Always let the tank / plant vent fully before poking your head in there…

exactly what do you mean by de-sludging ?

the way i see it , the suir pipes ( and toilet ) is backing up because the tank is not releasing the waste

The Engineer

Desludging, as the name suggests, is the removal of sludge from the tank. There is rarely ever a need to empty a tank…you only need to remove the solid fraction of the wastewater. Removing the liquid is only wasting money!

Click here for more information.

If the sewer pipe is backing-up, that can be because of a blockage in the pipe and not necessarily because of the tank itself (although this could also be the problem, as could blockage of the percolation pipe). So, apart from the toilet and the sewer pipe, is the treatment plant also "backed-up"?

irishh_bob

The Engineer wrote: »

Desludging, as the name suggests, is the removal of sludge from the tank. There is rarely ever a need to empty a tank…you only need to remove the solid fraction of the wastewater. Removing the liquid is only wasting money!

Click here for more information.

If the sewer pipe is backing-up, that can be because of a blockage in the pipe and not necessarily because of the tank itself (although this could also be the problem, as could blockage of the percolation pipe). So, apart from the toilet and the sewer pipe, is the treatment plant also "backed-up"?

i think i get you now , the bio - clear has three chambers , you mean for me to desludge the first one which holds the raw sewage

The Engineer

irishh_bob wrote: »

you mean for me to desludge the first one which holds the raw sewage

Well, not you personally , but yes...get the first chamber desludged. There is probably no need to empty the entire chamber, but see how the desludge contractor gets on.

Also, it is important to fill the chamber again immediately - this prevents excessive pressures on internal walls, etc. and mitigates the risk of the tank popping out of the ground.

irishh_bob

The Engineer wrote: »

Well, not you personally , but yes...get the first chamber desludged. There is probably no need to empty the entire chamber, but see how the desludge contractor gets on.

Also, it is important to fill the chamber again immediately - this prevents excessive pressures on internal walls, etc. and mitigates the risk of the tank popping out of the ground.

i live in rural ireland , i will just get a farmer in with a slurry tank

presumabley i need to refill the waste chamber with water once its de-sludged - emptied

Assistance13

Hi,

Just been informed by my Engineer that because the home that "im trying to build" is within a distance of two other wells then Im going to have to put in a biocycle septic tank. Never done this before so obviously im looking into costs etc and for the life of me I don't know where to start.. So would appreciate any assistance anyone can offer out there e.g. any suppliers that you know of, or the costings for one of these systems, running costs etc..

Thanks

A.M.

Dante79

After you desludge your system you can put a bucket in your percolation box under the inlet, check it after a day and if the bucket has liquid in it then you know that your system is discharging properly (obviously put lid back on box so rain doesnt get in bucket!). If not then your system has probable got a faulty pump so you need to contact the manufacturer for a maintenance call out.

Dante79

@ Assistance13

Just been informed by my Engineer that because the home that "im trying to build" is within a distance of two other wells then Im going to have to put in a biocycle septic tank. Never done this before so obviously im looking into costs etc and for the life of me I don't know where to start.. So would appreciate any assistance anyone can offer out there e.g. any suppliers that you know of, or the costings for one of these systems, running costs etc..

Your planning conditions should state what type of wastewater system you need to install. A septic tank or more typically now a propriety treatment system. A treatment system is basically a mechanical septic tank which usually uses electricity to treat wastewater to a much high level than a septic tank. Biocycle is one of many of these systems, and many use different processes to treat wastewater. The systems generally cost between €2500- €4000 for typical 4 bed house, with plastic systems usually cheaper and concrete systems usually a bit more expensive. A treatment system is one of the few purchases for your home that will be there for your lifetime, so its important to choose wisely. Here are the things you need to consider when choosing a system

1. EN 12566-3 Certification with national Annex- If your system does not have this its not certified to be sold in Ireland. Before the nation annex was introduced a system merely had to be tested to EN 12566-3 regardless of how it performed, under the annex the system has to met criteria for removing pollutants.

Total cost of system- This not only includes the purchase price but also the running cost, maintenance costs, installation costs, desludge frequency, once you have all these figures you can make an informed decision on the best system for you.
I would suggest contacting suppliers and ask for a copy for their European Certificate EN12566-3 , make sure it mentions the national annex, check the power consumption from the cert, this varies between systems and gives you an indication of how much electricity they use. Also ask the supplier for a copy of their maintenance agreement form ,some companies charge €225 for an emergency callout others are much less, these are costs the suppliers dont tell you about when selling to you. Installation costs are usually higher with non concrete systems as they usually need readymix concrete poured around them when installing. Systems with higher capacity usually can go for longer before being desludged so one that has to be desludge every two years as opposed to every year can save you €100 to €200 a year on desludge costs.

How the system treats wastewater- There are many different processes out there, check out the EPA manual on the different types page 37 http://www.epa.ie/pubs/advice/water/wastewater/code%20of%20practice%20for%20single%20houses/Code%20of%20Practice%20Part%201%202010.pdf
Some use filter systems, others use rotating moving parts others use no moving parts at all only air to move liquid. In my opinion the non moving systems are better because more moving parts = more electricity used= more wear and tear= more expense to you. Check how often filter systems have to be replaced and at what cost.

Also the wastewater treatment system is only one part of the whole process, you will also need a percolation area, of which there are generally two types, a gravity or pressurised percolation. Again this should be stated in your planning conditions.

You can PM me if you have any other questions

Assistance13

Thanks for all the above.. Im afraid I haven't even got to the stage of planning. My Engineer has just verbally told me with the space I have to work with then its a Bio cycle unit or nothing so haven't been given any details...!!

Do you know of any suppliers of these units?

The council haven't even seen plans yet or anything like that, its taken me 12 months to get this far. My idea for the new home is just a two bedroom, two ensuite and the main bathroom.

The Engineer

Assistance13 wrote: »

Thanks for all the above.. Im afraid I haven't even got to the stage of planning. My Engineer has just verbally told me with the space I have to work with then its a Bio cycle unit or nothing so haven't been given any details...!!

Do you know of any suppliers of these units?

The council haven't even seen plans yet or anything like that, its taken me 12 months to get this far. My idea for the new home is just a two bedroom, two ensuite and the main bathroom.

Good points by Dante above - although, the costs outlined are a bit misleading. If you're pitching in the €2,500 - €4,000 ballpark then you're not going to get too much bang for your buck. I would have thought €4,000 was a bare minimum outlay for a decent piece of mechanical kit.

Then, of course, factor in the following:
1. Civil works - excavation for unit, concrete surround (for plastic tanks and / or on sites with high water tables), construction of percolation area / polishing filter, landscaping, etc.
2. Electrical works
3. Ongoing costs - electricity, desludging, maintenance, possible replacement (these plants do have a life expectancy!), etc...

Of the many hundreds of sites I have been involved in, the ones that have had the least amount of difficulty are the ones that follow this simple protocol:

1. Do not take short-cuts. Use competent professionals with insurance cover for the tasks they are undertaking.
2. Don't put the cart before the horse - investigate your site's conditions FIRST. Based on the results of a fairly straightforward test, you can determine the size and layout of your on-site wastewater treatment system, and mitigate for any potential targets at risk.
3. When selecting a treatment system, use the "bigger is better" rule of thumb. Whether it's a plastic tank or a concrete tank, a buffer capacity in the system will stand you in good stead. Otherwise, prepare to be living with smells.
4. When the system is installed - be aware that it's there. Be mindful of what you send down the sewer - and have regular maintenance carried out.

If you are not an expert, I would caution you to avoid getting into discussions with manufacturers about things like EN certificates. Sure - as a basic requirement, make sure that the product has an EN certificate. But - do know that anyone can obtain a certificate for their plant, within reason, and it is no guarantee as to how it will perform on your site.

Ask your engineer for a fee proposal to do this for you - in other words, ask your engineer to design, source and supervise the installation of a solution that will be fit for its intended purpose. Make him carry the can on that one!

The Engineer

Assistance13 wrote: »

Hi,

Just been informed by my Engineer that because the home that "im trying to build" is within a distance of two other wells then Im going to have to put in a biocycle septic tank. Never done this before so obviously im looking into costs etc and for the life of me I don't know where to start.. So would appreciate any assistance anyone can offer out there e.g. any suppliers that you know of, or the costings for one of these systems, running costs etc..

Thanks

A.M.

PS. Did your engineer just "dump" this on you, and leave you to figure it out for yourself? If so, he doesn't sound like much of an engineer and I'd be considering "dumping" him! Just a thought...

Dante79

The Engineer wrote: »

Good points by Dante above - although, the costs outlined are a bit misleading. If you're pitching in the €2,500 - €4,000 ballpark then you're not going to get too much bang for your buck. I would have thought €4,000 was a bare minimum outlay for a decent piece of mechanical kit.

How exactly are the costs outlined a bit misleading? I work in this area and also I purchased a system last year after a lot of reasearch into wastewater treatment systems from this page http://www.siteassessor.com/downloads/european-certs.html and i can tell you 80% of the systems priced were in this range. All of these systems are certified to EN standard and meet the national Annex requirement. This means they are all tested to the same standard so you can compare like with like and this is as much guarantee as you can get as to how they perform.

You say you wont get much bang for your buck in that price range, well i got a 4000L concrete system which is more than adequate for my needs. It has the lowest electrical consumption of any electrically powered system and it treats wastewater to a very high level. It cost me €3300 so i would say there is plenty of bang for buck at the moment as there is fierce competition between manufacturers.

[/QUOTE] If you are not an expert, I would caution you to avoid getting into discussions with manufacturers about things like EN certificates. Sure - as a basic requirement, make sure that the product has an EN certificate. But - do know that anyone can obtain a certificate for their plant, within reason, and it is no guarantee as to how it will perform on your site. [/QUOTE]

An EN certificate is not a basic requirement, an EN certificate that complies with the national annex is the basic requirement. This means that is has to remove pollutants to a certain standard. To get an EN certificate means a 38 week continuos test of the system under varying loads and typically costs €40,000 some companies have spent this only to find their system now dosent comply with the national annex, so its not fair to say anyone can obtain a certificate for their plant, within reason. And the EN certificate is the only guarantee as to how a system will perform as all certs show how much they remove pollutants and are tested to the same standard.

Assistance13

This is my second Engineer, first guy you couldn't get him to move any faster than a snail and I felt like I was doing all the thinking then the council were feeling a bit sorry for me and suggested this guy that "he usually comes up with realistic ideas" so this is what he has come up with and when I asked him what is the next step to take he indicated to me via phone to get in a digger and test perciliation area. He has been out to the site twice, but for some reason for not comfortable with this guy now either. He is a teacher by day and does this work on the side and weekends.!!!

The Engineer

Dante79 wrote: »

How exactly are the costs outlined a bit misleading? I work in this area and also I purchased a system last year after a lot of reasearch into wastewater treatment systems from this page http://www.siteassessor.com/downloads/european-certs.html and i can tell you 80% of the systems priced were in this range.

My point is that the OP would be far better off focusing on cost of the on-site wastewater treatment system (i.e. proprietary system + filter + ancillaries) rather than the cost of just the proprietary system.

Quoting proprietary system prices is a bit like quoting the price of a car - minus the engine, etc. Look at the all-in costs.

Well done on being well-versed enough to do your own due diligence work in advance of making a purchase - but to anyone buying a system based on online resources such as the one you quoted - caveat emptor.

I've come across plenty of so-called experts in the on-site wastewater field that have little or no understanding of wastewater biology or hydraulics - the two fundamental areas in which to be competent.

Hence, the main reason to pass it to a professional. Would the OP consider designing the concrete structure for his house? Unlikely. However, the area of on-site wastewater treatment and disposal seems to be a free-for-all. Very unfair on the public, imho.

Dante79 wrote: »

All of these systems are certified to EN standard and meet the national Annex requirement. This means they are all tested to the same standard so you can compare like with like and this is as much guarantee as you can get as to how they perform.

Be careful how you use the word guarantee - that is especially misleading. There are very few guarantees and there is very little comparison between a laboratory test and how the system will perform on your site. Many of the European test houses use municipal wastewater, which even though it falls within the spec of EN12566, is wholly different to what you will see on the ground.

Also, have you ever gone back to a manufacturer of an on-site wastewater treatment system and tried to get your money back because the system did not meet the requirements of the national Annex?

Dante79 wrote: »

You say you wont get much bang for your buck in that price range, well i got a 4000L concrete system which is more than adequate for my needs. It has the lowest electrical consumption of any electrically powered system and it treats wastewater to a very high level. It cost me €3300 so i would say there is plenty of bang for buck at the moment as there is fierce competition between manufacturers.

Yes - more than adequate for your needs. What relevance do your needs have on those of the OP?

The OP's design should focus 100% on his needs, and those of his site. Topography, hydrogeology, occupancy, sensitive receptors nearby (already mentioned 2 wells) are all factors that will dictate his design.

A 4,000 L system is very small for the "typical 4 bed house". As for electrical costs - they're a mere dip in the pond compared to what some people pay in, say, desludging costs. In fact, the difference between the lowest and highest electrical consumption is probably €50 per annum, whereas smaller systems requiring annual desludging (or however often it had to / has to be done under the EN testing / certification) compared to larger ones requiring 5 - 10 year desludging intervals could mean a saving in thousands.

With all due respect Dante, do not fall into the trap of being a penny wise and a pound foolish.

Treating wastewater to a very high level with minimal power input sounds like a damn fine invention all the same.

Dante79 wrote: »

An EN certificate is not a basic requirement, an EN certificate that complies with the national annex is the basic requirement. This means that is has to remove pollutants to a certain standard. To get an EN certificate means a 38 week continuos test of the system under varying loads and typically costs €40,000 some companies have spent this only to find their system now dosent comply with the national annex, so its not fair to say anyone can obtain a certificate for their plant, within reason. And the EN certificate is the only guarantee as to how a system will perform as all certs show how much they remove pollutants and are tested to the same standard.

An EN Certificate absolutely is a basic requirement. Once again - it is not a guarantee. The only one that can give a performance guarantee is the manufacturer - I would strongly recommend the OP goes this route, if he insists on doing this himself. Get the person best placed to take responsibility to do so. Otherwise - start putting a few quid away.

Manufacturers of on-site wastewater treatement systems come in all shapes and sizes, just like their systems. Some like to offer you a cheap-as-chips system off the back of a truck, and others like to tie you in knots with their holier-than-thou approach. If you fancy dealing with them, OP, then get your plan-of-attack in order first.

- Avoid getting sucked into slick-talk about EN Certificates and low electrical costs.
- Know well in advance how big your polishing filter / percolation area will need to be.
- Know if you will need a pressurised discharge.
- Ask if the manufacturer will supply and install the system, including the pipework to the filter - and certify it is in compliance with the Building Regulations (not the EPA Code of Practice, but the Statutory Instrument aka the Building Regs!).
- Get guarantees of the system's performance, down to the frequency of desludging (any designer worth his salt can do this calculation for you).
- Find out how long the system is guaranteed for - e.g. concrete manufacturers might claim their tanks last indefinitely, but in fact are only guaranteed for 15 years...know this stuff cold!
- This is not about fancy brochures - it's about a functioning system that is very susceptible to what you put down your sewers. Bigger systems can handle variations - smaller systems cannot. When the flora and fauna in the system die, they do give off a nasty odour and can take a while to develop again. You've got to decide whether this is a short-term or long-term investment for you - something to get you in the door, or something to see you through your retirement!

Dante79

You need to get rid of this part timer and get in a professional. Any engineer that indicates to a client to get in a digger and test percolation area is a cowboy. That is his job and he should be doing it. What part of the country are you in? I got an engineer who was also a site assessor so he did the assessment for me. He filled out a site characterisation form: http://www.epa.ie/pubs/advice/water/wastewater/sitecharacterisationform.pdf and this will tell you what type of system, if any, is suitable for your site.

The Engineer

Dante79 wrote: »

You need to get rid of this part timer and get in a professional. Any engineer that indicates to a client to get in a digger and test percolation area is a cowboy. That is his job and he should be doing it. What part of the country are you in? I got an engineer who was also a site assessor so he did the assessment for me. He filled out a site characterisation form: http://www.epa.ie/pubs/advice/water/wastewater/sitecharacterisationform.pdf and this will tell you what type of system, if any, is suitable for your site.

Agree 100% with Dante. Well said. A complete part-timer.

The Engineer should be advising you where to have the holes dug, and should be on-site supervising it.

Yes - ideally if your Engineer is also competent and insured for site assessments and designs of on-site systems, your risk is seriously cut.

Good catch Dante.

Dante79

The Engineer wrote: »

My point is that the OP would be far better off focusing on cost of the on-site wastewater treatment system (i.e. proprietary system + filter + ancillaries) rather than the cost of just the proprietary system.
Quoting proprietary system prices is a bit like quoting the price of a car - minus the engine, etc. Look at the all-in costs.

I agree and if you read my first reply you would see most of it is made up of writing about the total cost of the system, not just the treatment plant, but when we dont have any more information from the OP we cant really give a price on anything but the treatment plant.

[/QUOTE] Hence, the main reason to pass it to a professional. Would the OP consider designing the concrete structure for his house? Unlikely. However, the area of on-site wastewater treatment and disposal seems to be a free-for-all. Very unfair on the public, imho. [/QUOTE]
[/B]
How is it unfair?, the OP requested information "So would appreciate any assistance anyone can offer out there e.g. any suppliers that you know of, or the costings for one of these systems, running costs etc.." and i was merely trying to help by providing some information he asked for, so how is it unfair? Im not saying its a free for all when it comes to wastewater but i think if someone is going to spend thousands of euro on a system they have every right to be informed of what they are paying for. Also, not all Engineers have their clients best interests in mind, some have been approached by the wastewater companies to push particular systems, so i would question why one is recommended over another.

[/QUOTE]Yes - more than adequate for your needs. What relevance do your needs have on those of the OP? [/QUOTE][/B]
[/B]
Again, the OP has requested information and i can only reply with my own experience as we dont know the OP's needs. My point was there are quality systems out there for under €4000 and they could very well meet the OP's needs. Obviously the OP's design is going to focus on his needs, thats what his site characterisation form is for.

[/QUOTE]A 4,000 L system is very small for the "typical 4 bed house"[/QUOTE][/B].
[/B]
Why is it very small for a 4 bed house? A 4 bed house has a Population Equivalent of 6. Most wastewater systems have been tested with a hydraulic loading of around 1000L/day under EN12566-3. This is similar to the loading of a 6PE( 150L per person). So if a 4000 L system has been tested to 6PE why is it very small to use in practice? The loading should be no more than 1000 L/ day. I agree a bigger tank is better with regards desludge frequency but i had a conversation with a college lecturer recently who specialises in wastewater systems and he has seen problems with wastewater systems that are under loaded, and this can have a detrimental effect on the activity of the micro organisms in the tank.

The Engineer

Dante79 wrote: »

I agree and if you read my first reply you would see most of it is made up of writing about the total cost of the system, not just the treatment plant, but when we dont have any more information from the OP we cant really give a price on anything but the treatment plant.

True - I agree you covered the total cost, but without knowing the details of the site and the loadings, quoting a price full-stop is misleading.

Dante79 wrote: »

How is it unfair?, the OP requested information "So would appreciate any assistance anyone can offer out there e.g. any suppliers that you know of, or the costings for one of these systems, running costs etc.." and i was merely trying to help by providing some information he asked for, so how is it unfair? Im not saying its a free for all when it comes to wastewater but i think if someone is going to spend thousands of euro on a system they have every right to be informed of what they are paying for. Also, not all Engineers have their clients best interests in mind, some have been approached by the wastewater companies to push particular systems, so i would question why one is recommended over another.

Yes - the OP requested information, and as someone with a background in this field you have a duty to warn him about attempting to select a specialist piece of kit for his site. When I referred to the area of on-site wastewater treatment and disposal seeming to be a free-for-all, I was specifically referring to the number of unscrupulous manufacturers that are solely interested in selling units, with little or no concern for the end user. I have data going back a number of years that confirms that the number of systems sold compared to the number of systems on maintenance contracts is way higher. Percentages on maintenance contracts are as low as 5 - 10 % in certain cases, so it's clear that many manufacturers are solely focussed on selling, rather than maintaining. And that, Dante, is unfair on the public. It is not an off-the-shelf item the OP needs - it's a purpose-built engineered solution for his site.

To quote Prof. Nick Gray in TCD - "Wastewater treatment is not solely a physical phenomena controlled by engineers - it also involves a complex series of biochemical reactions involving a wide range of micro-organisms."

Dante79 wrote: »

Again, the OP has requested information and i can only reply with my own experience as we dont know the OP's needs. My point was there are quality systems out there for under €4000 and they could very well meet the OP's needs. Obviously the OP's design is going to focus on his needs, thats what his site characterisation form is for.

Again - duty to warn. There are tons of pitfalls, and as a professional in this area - you do have a duty of care if you're going to give advice...even if it's online.

Dante79 wrote: »

Why is it very small for a 4 bed house? A 4 bed house has a Population Equivalent of 6. Most wastewater systems have been tested with a hydraulic loading of around 1000L/day under EN12566-3. This is similar to the loading of a 6PE( 150L per person). So if a 4000 L system has been tested to 6PE why is it very small to use in practice? The loading should be no more than 1000 L/ day. I agree a bigger tank is better with regards desludge frequency but i had a conversation with a college lecturer recently who specialises in wastewater systems and he has seen problems with wastewater systems that are under loaded, and this can have a detrimental effect on the activity of the micro organisms in the tank.

Why is it small? It just is! What if the site requires a pressurised discharge to the polishing filter (because of topography, or presence of sensitive receptors)? Will a 4,000 L tank have enough capacity to allow a continuation of the hydraulic loading? Or will it fill up quickly and back-up along the sewers?

I have seen problems with underloading too - and they are nowhere near as bad as overloading. I'm not talking about making the plant excessively big - but rather having it big. If I was installing a proprietary system for a 4-bed house, I would be looking for 6,000-8,000 L minimum - including a spare capacity in the event of power loss.

Again, manufacturers are looking to sell in a very competetive market - with a large amount of different system suppliers all claiming that theirs is the bees-knees. They are making their plants smaller and smaller to cut costs, and the end result is the plants are extremely susceptible to even small variations in influent characteristics. It's not rocket science - when you take a process from a municipal wastewater treatment plant and scale it down to the sizes that we are seeing nowadays, the plants are destined to have major operational issues. Clever engineering and a good microbiologist can help the plant through the EN testing, but in the field...? Watch out!

NIMAN

stefanrasiak wrote: »

Can anyone offer advice on septic tanks? My tank has stopped making that slushing noise. Does this mean its not percolating. I have had the cover off the part where the electrical switch is (i think this is the blower?) thinking that something may have tripped following a recent power cut but the switch is turned on ok. Not sure of the manufacturer of this tank/bio system. can anyone help

Hope you all don't mind me jumping in here, but I have a quick question as a septic tank newbie.

I bought a house 3 years ago that has a tank in the back garden. There is 2 plastic vents sticking up from the garden, but no lid visible. I am assuming it has been overgrown with the lawn? There is no signs of any recent dug up part that would suggest that it was opened recently (prev owners left a receipt which would suggest it was emptied approx 3.5yrs ago).

Anyway, my question, what about this slushing noise? Should all tanks make a noise, because I have never heard a sound from mine. And if every tank has a pump inside, where would mine be powered from?

The Engineer

NIMAN wrote: »

Hope you all don't mind me jumping in here, but I have a quick question as a septic tank newbie.

I bought a house 3 years ago that has a tank in the back garden. There is 2 plastic vents sticking up from the garden, but no lid visible. I am assuming it has been overgrown with the lawn? There is no signs of any recent dug up part that would suggest that it was opened recently (prev owners left a receipt which would suggest it was emptied approx 3.5yrs ago).

Anyway, my question, what about this slushing noise? Should all tanks make a noise, because I have never heard a sound from mine. And if every tank has a pump inside, where would mine be powered from?

First-off, when you bought the house, did your Engineer complete a report for the conveyancing? What does the report call the system? Is it called a septic tank, or something else?

I would suggest your first port-of-call is back to the professional that did the report for you and ask him the questions, or ask for a copy of the report - he'd want to be very bad-minded to charge you for digging this info out.

Septic tanks and indeed any form of on-site wastewater treatment system require regular maintenance - so burying them under grass is usually not a good idea.

The "slushing noise" is not associated with septic tanks, and is usually only associated with mechanical / proprietary systems. Also, not every tank has a pump inside.

The power to mechanical / proprietary units should come via a Miniature Circuit Breakers (MCB) in your distribution board, although it's not unheard of for it to be plugged directly into a socket - but that is bad practice.

If you feel the urge to go investigating, please be extremely careful - you are dealing with an underground tank containing dangerous gases, harmful bacteria, with a risk of drowning, sickness and passing out from fumes. Also, if your tank has electrical components there is a risk of electrocution. Use best practice protocols and common sense, and if in doubt - employ a professional.

NIMAN

Thanks Engineer,m I'll not be going anywhere near the tank, thats for sure.

Well I assume its a septic tank, thats what the guy who did the survey fir the mortgage called it. His survey was a structural survey and he said his survey only guaranteed the structure of the house and the septic tank and its functionality was not included.

Either way, there is definitely no lid visible on my tank, only two 4" pipes coming out of the lawn. If there is a lid, and I got to assume there is one somewhere, then its covered by my garden. Plus there is no obvious section of lawn that looks like it has a lid underneath, or where someone might have dug up beforee to get at a lid.

I have seen a few septic tanks in other houses in the area, some on unfinished sites, and they have the 2 plastic vertical pipes, and the lid tends to be in between these but I scoured the area around my pipes and pushed down a metal rod, and got no sound back as if I was hitting a lid, so I might just call in a septic tank guy and see what the craic with mine is.

Dante79

The Engineer wrote: »

I referred to the area of on-site wastewater treatment and disposal seeming to be a free-for-all, I was specifically referring to the number of unscrupulous manufacturers that are solely interested in selling units, with little or no concern for the end user. I have data going back a number of years that confirms that the number of systems sold compared to the number of systems on maintenance contracts is way higher. Percentages on maintenance contracts are as low as 5 - 10 % in certain cases, so it's clear that many manufacturers are solely focussed on selling, rather than maintaining. And that, Dante, is unfair on the public. It is not an off-the-shelf item the OP needs - it's a purpose-built engineered solution for his site.

I think you are being very unfair to manufacturers here Engineer, i 100% agree there is a big difference between the number of plants sold and the number of maintenance contracts but did you question why? The main reason i have seen, is not because manufacturers are not bothered about maintaining but because homeowners are not paying for maintenance contracts. I have experienced this over the years, homeowners either cant afford to or dont think they have to pay to maintain their own systems. Some think a wastewater plant is one off payment and they can forget about it once its in the ground. Some think the manufactureres are trying to pull a fast one by requesting payment for maintenance contracts. Homeowners are not aware that they are as responsible as manufacturers for the proper operation of their plant. I have seen plants put out of operation with under sink food macerators, kitchen towels etc.
To say manufacturers are not interested in maintaining is a lie. I know manufacturers that are offering flexible payment methods like paying monthly or in installments, so would they be doing this if all they cared about was selling?

The Engineer

Dante79 wrote: »

I think you are being very unfair to manufacturers here Engineer, i 100% agree there is a big difference between the number of plants sold and the number of maintenance contracts but did you question why? The main reason i have seen, is not because manufacturers are not bothered about maintaining but because homeowners are not paying for maintenance contracts. I have experienced this over the years, homeowners either cant afford to or dont think they have to pay to maintain their own systems. Some think a wastewater plant is one off payment and they can forget about it once its in the ground. Some think the manufactureres are trying to pull a fast one by requesting payment for maintenance contracts. Homeowners are not aware that they are as responsible as manufacturers for the proper operation of their plant. I have seen plants put out of operation with under sink food macerators, kitchen towels etc.
To say manufacturers are not interested in maintaining is a lie. I know manufacturers that are offering flexible payment methods like paying monthly or in installments, so would they be doing this if all they cared about was selling?

Dante - please don't misquote me, what I said was:

The Engineer wrote:

...it's clear that many manufacturers are solely focussed on selling, rather than maintaining...

I never said manufacturer's are not interested in maintaining - I said that many are focussed on selling, rather than maintaining - and that fact remains true.

And for homeowners to "think a wastewater plant is one off payment and they can forget about it once its in the ground" (which I do agree with you on - many of them do) points to a major shortcoming in the whole process. When manufacturers are allowed sell systems via builder's providers yards, without visiting the site, without taking responsibility for designing the disposal system, etc., is it any wonder homeowners are mislead?

They call company A who says "we need to visit the site, we need to see the ground conditions, we will supply and install the system and the filter, we will sign-off on it, and it will cost €X".

Then they call company B who says "ah sure company A only like to sound important - we'll drop the tank out to you for €X/2, and your digger man will lash it in no bother".

A completely unregulated industry that saw a massive proliferation of manufacturers over the last 15 or so years - now all struggling to make their targets. Many of them couldn't give two sh**s about the end-user.

As for sink macerators - once a designer is made aware at the outset of the process that there is a macerator in the house, he will be able to accommodate it. Blanket bans on things like this, as some Local Authorities have done, is a very short-sighted approach and is leading to a "nannying" mentality.

The buck does stop with the homeowner - under the laws of the land. If they knew this and understood the risks associated with the installation and operation of the on-site system, they would defer to a professional quick smart. Allow someone else to shoulder the risk if you're not competent to do so yourself.

Assistance13

Im from West Cork and you have no idea how hard it is to find someone that does all this "basic work" for you... I don't know what part of the country you are all from but would appreciate any names, suggestions etc.. Was given the name of the present Engineer by the council themselves so said "how bad can he be" but Im not gone on the idea that if I need him on site for foundation etc that he will be in class!!!!

The Engineer

Assistance13 wrote: »

Im from West Cork and you have no idea how hard it is to find someone that does all this "basic work" for you... I don't know what part of the country you are all from but would appreciate any names, suggestions etc.. Was given the name of the present Engineer by the council themselves so said "how bad can he be" but Im not gone on the idea that if I need him on site for foundation etc that he will be in class!!!!

I do know how hard it is - very few Engineers would be experts in civil works and also in on-site wastewater treatment.

I would class on-site wastewater treatment and disposal as one of my areas of expertise, but I wouldn't touch slab design, beam design, etc., because I'm not competent nor insured to.

Just as you wouldn't expect your GP to be a master of anaesthesia or oncology, the same applies for Engineers - and to get the best value for money, you may need to employ more than one. Very few engineers can be a one-stop shop.

So the Council gave you the name of the current Engineer - that's great! Does it mean that if he makes a balls of things that they'll cover the cost?! It might be worth running that one by them...

The Engineer

NIMAN wrote: »

Thanks Engineer,m I'll not be going anywhere near the tank, thats for sure.

Well I assume its a septic tank, thats what the guy who did the survey fir the mortgage called it. His survey was a structural survey and he said his survey only guaranteed the structure of the house and the septic tank and its functionality was not included.

Either way, there is definitely no lid visible on my tank, only two 4" pipes coming out of the lawn. If there is a lid, and I got to assume there is one somewhere, then its covered by my garden. Plus there is no obvious section of lawn that looks like it has a lid underneath, or where someone might have dug up beforee to get at a lid.

I have seen a few septic tanks in other houses in the area, some on unfinished sites, and they have the 2 plastic vertical pipes, and the lid tends to be in between these but I scoured the area around my pipes and pushed down a metal rod, and got no sound back as if I was hitting a lid, so I might just call in a septic tank guy and see what the craic with mine is.

Elephant in the room - how did he carry out a structural survey of the tank if it's covered by the garden? Did he, instead, carry out a quick visual inspection?

Calling in a "septic tank guy" might be your best bet - just make sure he doesn't do any damage to the tank (e.g. emptying the tank with a high surrounding water table could cause the tank to float or deform).

NIMAN

He didn't carry out any inspection of the tank, his survey was only of the house structure.

As for the tank, the house is approx 10 years old, so I assume its been working ok up til now. There are a couple of local properly registered septic tank firms, and I would be using one of them to empty/inspect it, so I am sure their work will come guaranteed.

Assistance13

Id say after the last Engineer I had they thought they were doing me a favour, now he is a nice man to talk to came out twice to site and said my only option was a bio unit for the septic tank due to limited space and when I asked what is the next step to take he just said that the percilation test needs to be done next.. He is still waiting on me to get back to him on that one!.. So what do you suggest I do next? and what area of the country do you work from?

The Engineer

Assistance13 wrote: »

Id say after the last Engineer I had they thought they were doing me a favour, now he is a nice man to talk to came out twice to site and said my only option was a bio unit for the septic tank due to limited space and when I asked what is the next step to take he just said that the percilation test needs to be done next.. He is still waiting on me to get back to him on that one!.. So what do you suggest I do next? and what area of the country do you work from?

He's right - a percolation test (and trial hole assessment and site characterisation assessment) is your next step. But, the location of the test holes needs to be on the advice of the Engineer as it should be adjacent to where the percolation area / polishing filter is to be located.

If I was your Engineer, some of the things I'd be looking at are...

The percolation area / polishing filter must be sited in such a way as the risk to the nearby sensitive receptors (e.g. wells) is mitigated. Also, the site's characteristics will dictate this location too - e.g. if one part of your site is very wet, keep away from there as you will end up with ponding of effluent. The other thing that comes into play is the recommended minimum separation distances from the boundary, the house, neighbouring houses, etc.

As for the the proprietary system (i.e. the "bio unit") - this must be installed somewhere that will be easy to access for future maintenance. Also, keep the sewer run to it as straight as possible. If your site slopes, use the natural gradient to site the proprietary system - this means you're not pumping raw wastewater.

You could instruct your Engineer to outline some possible areas for the proprietary system and polishing filter, with the pros and cons of each - then let him make an informed recommendation to you - in writing!

Assistance13

Are you based in the Cork/West Cork area? I was also thinking of employing a Quantity Surveyor to take some of the pressure off, do you know of where I can seek one of these out?

The Engineer

Not based in Cork. You could look for a surveyor by contacting the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland - you'll find them via google.

GaelicAnna

Am reading this post in shock. It's such a minefield and I don't know where to begin or who to go to please help. I thought it was just a matter of calling someone and jobs done!!
We are thinking of buying a house which is finished being built but had no utilities ie water, electric and septic tank. The cost of installing a system depends on whether we can afford to buy the house and we need to keep outlay low but not scrimp on quality. Is there a difference between a septic tank and biocycle? Do I have to get a quantity surveyor in as someone mentioned that and do I pay an annual cost to have it desludged??
Anna

Dante79

@ GaelicAnna

Domestic wastewater treatment can feel like a bit of a minefield alright,especially for the layperson, thankfully its becoming more straightforward due to new regulations and standards. Ill try my best to answer your questions and shed some light on the subject.

Is there a difference between a septic tank and biocycle?
Yes, a septic tank is a basic wastewater treatment system that usually comprises of two chambers and relies on settlement and a limited amount of anaerobic digestion. They require no electricity. Basically, the solids settle to the bottom of the first chamber and liquids flow through and out to percolation area. The percolation area is a series of underground trenches with pipes on gravel, installed for the purpose of receiving water from a septic tank and transmitting it to the soil for final treatment and disposal. In a septic tank system the majority of the treatment is carried out in the percolation area.

Firstly, Biocycle is a brand of a mechanical treatment system, they have been around a long time and their brand has become synonymous with treatment systems , much like kleenex with tissue and hoover with vacuums. A mechanical treatment system uses media and/or mechanical parts to enhance the treatment of the wastewater in the tank. They usually require electricity and they require a polishing filter to allow for further treatment and convey treated wastewater to groundwater. There are approx 20 mechanical wastewater systems on the market in Ireland.

Do I have to get a quantity surveyor in as someone mentioned that and do I pay an annual cost to have it desludged??
You dont need a QS but you will need to employ an Engineer and/or builder to sign off on the work, including treatment system.

Every system requires desludging at some stage. Desludging, as the name suggests, is the removal of sludge from the tank. This is important as solids can block up the percolation area pipes. Not all systems require annual desludging, it depends on the process, the size of the tank, the amount of people in the house and how the system is maintained etc. Expect to pay around €150 to €250 for desludge. The treatment system itself like all mechanical systems will also need periodic maintenance. You can pay for an annual maintenance contract with manufacturer which covers a call out and parts and labour(provided system is not abused), this usually costs approx €190. Alternatively, you can maintain the system on a call out basis when a problem occurs(expect to pay call out fee, mileage, parts etc.)

Maybe if you check your planning file it will indicate which type of system is required by planning and then come back to us with more information or pm me.

GaelicAnna

Thanks for your help. It's such a huge financial outlay and so many different estimates ranging from 4800 to 10000!!! My head is wrecked. According to our plans we have to get a biocycle type one.

jacknoonan

Hi Engineer
I have a bioclear treatment unit
working grand for 9 years until last week
control panel indicating faulty pump
getting it desludged so electrician can check pump
any ideas on what may be wrong
I am in West Clare can you recommend a maintenance specialist nearby say limerick / clare / galway
original supplier went down in the financial crash 2008
thanks

Ubbquittious

Is biocycle the only type of septic tank that gets put in these days? Any versions available that don't use electricity or very little?

monseiur

Puraflo treatment system is an option, it uses peat fibre- I think it's supplied by Bord na Mona. Basically you build a standard septic tank with a sump/small holding tank at the outfall. A submersible pump is fitted in this holding tank and it pumps the contents into a plastic tank filled with peat fibre for further treatment. The pump is not working continuously, it just kicks in when the water in holding tank reaches a certain level so pump should last up to 10 years. Depending of use etc. you may have to replace peat fibre every 5 to 10 years. The old peat has to be manually shoveled out new peat dumped in by wheelbarrow.