Home births

Deliverance

I have a friend whom has chosen this option. Any experiences or advice in this sense? It is his first and I think that it isi a brave choice to say the least. Any advice and experience that I can pass on would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Sleepy

My advice would be not to risk his partner's or their child's health with such a silly decision but if they're insistent on risking it, I'd suggest they check the best route to the hospital, how long it would take to get to one and how that hospital are set to cope with emergency arrivals. A long drive in traffic and/or wait on a trolley could be extremely stressful or even fatal if things go badly.

Kildrought

Sleepy, you're scaremongering.

Both my children were planned home births and I'd highly recommend it.

There are certain types of pregnancies that would be recommended for hospital births but your midwife will let you know if you fall into that category.

@Deliverance you'll get a lot of useful information from the Home Birth Association www.homebirth.ie and also on another parenting board that apparently I'm not allowed mention. It has a separate Home Birth thread which is very good.

Hobbitfeet

Homebirths with a trained midwife are not risky. My sister had a homebirth and was also her 1st baby. She had a great pregnancy and a great birth experience. Giving birth at home with a trained midwife is no riskier than giving birth in hospital if you are low risk and have had a good complication free pregnancy

How Strange

I personally wouldn't want a home birth because we live in an apartment so our neighbours would hear absolutely everything but I can see why other people would. Giving birth away from a hospital environment (especially in Ireland where you're constantly monitored and on a schedule to deliver by x time or be coerced to have interventions carried out) would be far less stressful and perhaps even a memorable experience.

Unfortunately in Ireland home births are regarded with suspicion by the medical community and a woman has to really fight to be 'allowed' give birth at home.
The home births website is a good starting point.

I think your friends are brave and they need encouragement and support from their friends and family as they'll most likely encounter a lot of opposition from doctors etc.

Hobbitfeet

How strange think your right about the way people view home birth in Ireland.

Have to say my sister got great support from all the staff and midwives in Sligo hospital when she decided she was having a home birth. She went for her check ups at the hospital aswell as her midwife coming to do them too.
The midwives were very supportive of her choice so it made things a lot easier for her.
I'm due my 1st in 3 days no homebirth for me I would have loved one but midwife was not available but I'm happy to be in Sligo hospital the are very easy going and relaxed and have respected everything I have in my birth plan they want me to have a natural birth as much as I want it

Orion

Sleepy: Scaremongering like that is not appreciated on this forum. Please think twice before using such language again.
Kildrought: If you've a problem with a post please report it.

Sleepy

Kildrought wrote: »

Sleepy, you're scaremongering.

Both my children were planned home births and I'd highly recommend it.

I've smoked for most of my life and not got cancer yet, does that mean smoking is a good idea? Just because lots of people have homebirths without complications doesn't diminish the fact that it's a more dangerous option as your home can never rival a hospital's facilities.

Unless you're very near a hospital who can admit you quickly should something unexpected happen, I believe it's a foolhardy thing to do.

Sleepy

Apologies Orion, your post hadn't appeared by the time my last reply was written.

I'm not trying to scaremonger but it seems very blatantly obvious that a maternity hospital with their level of equipment, doctors, nurses etc. is a safer place to have a child than your living room.

Orion

We'll ignore the cross post then.

In answer to you: home births have taken place for years. A normal birth can catered for at home just as easily as in a hospital. In fact some would say the care is better as the midwife only has you to think about instead of the pressure working in a busy hospital entails. Obviously there are certain births which may need hospital care but plenty can be catered for perfectly safely at home.

Read up at www.homebirth.ie before making a sweeping judgement on it. Specifially http://www.homebirth.ie/index.asp?mm=2&msm=4

nesf

Orion wrote: »

We'll ignore the cross post then.

In answer to you: home births have taken place for years. A normal birth can catered for at home just as easily as in a hospital. In fact some would say the care is better as the midwife only has you to think about instead of the pressure working in a busy hospital entails. Obviously there are certain births which may need hospital care but plenty can be catered for perfectly safely at home. Read up at www.homebirth.ie before making a sweeping judgement on it.

For the vast majority of times it'll go perfectly fine at home. The thing is that on the small chance that something does go wrong you'll generally be better off having that happen in a hospital than in your living room.

Which is the point I think Sleepy is trying to make but phrasing so poorly.

angelfire9

nesf wrote: »

Orion wrote: »

We'll ignore the cross post then.

In answer to you: home births have taken place for years. A normal birth can catered for at home just as easily as in a hospital. In fact some would say the care is better as the midwife only has you to think about instead of the pressure working in a busy hospital entails. Obviously there are certain births which may need hospital care but plenty can be catered for perfectly safely at home. Read up at www.homebirth.ie before making a sweeping judgement on it.

For the vast majority of times it'll go perfectly fine at home. The thing is that on the small chance that something does go wrong you'll generally be better off having that happen in a hospital than in your living room.

Which is the point I think Sleepy is trying to make but phrasing so poorly.

When I was pregnant with Aisling I would have been classed as a low risk for home birth no complications with no 1 baby was in position and I was 10cm dilated when I got to Munchins

If I'd had a home birth I'd be dead now!
I almost bled put out after birth and required a transfusion
I don't mean to scaremonger BUT...

OP for a 1st baby I'd want to be 10 mins max from the hospital I know women have been giving birth at home for 100's of years but women have been known to die giving birth as well both at home and in hospitals!

Sleepy

nesf wrote: »

For the vast majority of times it'll go perfectly fine at home. The thing is that on the small chance that something does go wrong you'll generally be better off having that happen in a hospital than in your living room.

Which is the point I think Sleepy is trying to make but phrasing so poorly.

That's exactly the point. When it comes to the lives of a mother and her baby I think that her partner should be doing everything possible to minimise the risks that come with childbirth.

Not all risks can be detected prior to the birth so having a baby in a less than perfect location, even when unlikely to go wrong, comes with risks. Accepting those risks for the sake of more familiar or comfortable surroundings is utterly unfathomable to me. Sure, you may never make it to the hospital in any pregnancy but to plan to do things in anything other than the least risky way possible is foolhardy imho.

Moonbeam

If I have any more children I have to be prepared for the chance of an accidental home birth..
I would love to be able to plan a home birth and control the situation but not living near any hospitals I don't feel it is an option.
Talk to some newly trained midwives they feel that they are not adequately trained for homebirths.

Moonbeam

Talk to Mothman about home births he has a lovely birth story up.

wmpdd3

I have to be prepared for the chance of an accidental home birth..

I know someone who did this twice, she's German and has her first, 2 decades ago in a sort of birthing center near a hospital but more like a MLU.

My Sister in law had her 4 kids at home, no issues... at all.

@angelfire9, I get what you mean about an apartment though, even for labour that would be awkward!!

Al I can say is midwives who offer a home birth are in short supply, the lady who delivered my nephew last year went into this as there are so little permanent jobs for midwives within hospitals and she was fully booked up for the year and had no holidays booked.

pippington

To be honest I can understand the medical communities suspicion regarding homebirths...inparticular if there are no antenatal or perhaps just one antenatal dating scan inolved. We are lucky enough to live in a country where medical care is free and of a good standard. I work with newborns and seeing the amount of issues which can occur, and yes i know it is a small percentage of babies out of the number born each year, i would be very very reluctant to have a home birth even if close to a maternity hospital...saving lives, if an issue occurs, can be down to seconds...I know i wouldnt want to be even 5 mins from a hospital. I think you have to have a very strong sense that everything is ok with you and the baby.

Having said all that its personal choice. Some people have a natural suspicion and fear of modern medicine and of hospitals and if being in a hospital is gonna make you freak out and have a stressful birth then a homebirth has to be looked at. But I know for me I would be stressed out at home.

pippington

Also I think its a fair point to make that none of us can actually see into our baby in the womb. It is impossible to know if all is well or not, no matter how many scans etc you have. I also think its ridiculous to say there is no risk with a trained midwife at home. Every birth is risky, whether at home or in hospital, whether with the most well trained midwife/ obstetrician or an old man off the street. At the end of the day if you choose to have a home birth, its your choice.

SanFran07

Sleepy wrote: »

Just because lots of people have homebirths without complications doesn't diminish the fact that it's a more dangerous option as your home can never rival a hospital's facilities.

Unless you're very near a hospital who can admit you quickly should something unexpected happen, I believe it's a foolhardy thing to do.

The facts are actually quite clear - the evidence supports homebirth as a safe option for low risk Mothers. We have several free homebirth schemes run by Irish maternity hospitals so I would assume they've thought this through. Unfortunately sometimes personal beliefs and opinions get in the way of the facts.

Accoucheur

My wife has had three absolutely beautiful births at home in the birthpool. I was so inspired I choose to go back to school and do a midwifery course after the first. Even after learning all the pathologies that women can acquire throughout their lives and during pregnancy, my faith in homebirth remains unshaken. Too many times I have felt that women's lives have been put into jeopardy by setting foot in the hospital at all. As for risk, I would say it is risky just opening the door of my house and crossing the street or getting in my car and driving. That doesn't stop me from choosing to open my door.

Mink

I'm planning a home birth and this is my first. If you look at the actual stats of home birth vs hospital it's very safe.

The main thing to remember is that independent midwives in Ireland have to be registered with the HSE and insured. To be insured they have to follow strict protocol in regards to when they would turn down a woman for home birth or transfer her. For example, breech babies, twins, medical complications, overdue two weeks etc.

So if I end up two weeks overdue (very possible on my first) I'll have to go to hospital. I'll be continuing to get all the regular scans and tests that other pregnant women get and if issues come up on this then I'll have to go to hospital, simple as.

Also the midwife is trained to watch for signs that they need to transfer to the hospital. The independent midwives registered in Ireland have been doing this for years and years, often decades.

But if everything is normal and as it should be, then I can go ahead with the homebirth.

I think a LOT more women would go for homebirths if it was more readily available. There are very few independent midwives at the moment and the catchment area for DOMINO is pretty small.

I don't think hospitals would even have the DOMINO scheme if it was considered "dangerous", "unsafe", "risky".

I know three women in Dublin who had all of their babies at home and there were absolutely no problems. My sister had her second at home in UK and the hospital provided the midwives for it.

Like How Strange, I wouldn't have felt comfortable having a home birth on my first as I live in an apartment and there is sound transfer between the different apartments.

I did think it would be lovely in other circumstances and just after I had my baby the midwife said to me "You'll be a great candidate for a home birth next time" (I was with the Domino midwives in Holles St.). About 5 mins later I had a major hemorrhage. In no time I had three people working on me giving me IVs, injections etc. etc. I know they bring a lot of these drugs to the home when you're having a home birth but I don't think I could ever give birth outside a hospital after that. And I'm young and had a perfectly healthy pregnancy with no complications whatsoever.

This was confirmed when my sister-in-law had a baby late last year. She also is young and had a healthy pregnancy. She was in the hospital at 5 cm being monitored when a nurse walked in, saw from the monitor that baby was in serious distress, and wheeled her out without another word. Three mins later the baby was out by C-section. They checked her cord blood and said that she was just above the point at which brain damage becomes a possibility.

We were all freaked out. I was still at home at 5 cm, didn't get to the hospital til I was 9cm. I hate to think what would have happened if I'd experienced similar complications. I know that this type of situation is rare and that many women and their families have better birth experiences at home, but I just couldn't risk it after that.

And I have to say - I had a lovely birth in the hospital. My midwife was very supportive and positive. If it wasn't for the bleed we could have left 6 hours later. I think midwife-led units are a great middle ground. You can give birth the way you want but there's support right there if its needed. Now if we could have water births in the hospital I really think it would be perfect.

nesf

Mink wrote: »

I'm planning a home birth and this is my first. If you look at the actual stats of home birth vs hospital it's very safe.

Of course the stats are good, in the vast majority of births things go very smoothly. That doesn't mean all births are going to go that way. No one (sensible) is arguing that having an average birth at home is dangerous, all that's being argued is that on the small chance that something very bad happens you don't want to be outside of a hospital if you can avoid it. They can screen for, and predict many of, these dangerous births but they cannot catch them all before labour.

chirogirl

I was born back in the 70's via a Home delivery, my mum to this day says it was the best decision she made.

Sleepy

SanFran07 wrote: »

The facts are actually quite clear - the evidence supports homebirth as a safe option for low risk Mothers. We have several free homebirth schemes run by Irish maternity hospitals so I would assume they've thought this through. Unfortunately sometimes personal beliefs and opinions get in the way of the facts.

And the fact remains that not every mother to be that's identified as 'low risk' will be.

As nesf states, no one's arguing that a homebirth won't be safe 99.9% of the time. It's the .1% of the time that things can go wrong even when they shouldn't that I'm referring to. Even taking the very slight possibility of additional risk is, in my opinion, foolhardy when the benefits are either comfort or bragging rights...

(BTW: the first paragraph is fact, the second is a personal belief and opinion of the ramifications of that fact)

January

Sleepy wrote: »

And the fact remains that not every mother to be that's identified as 'low risk' will be.

As nesf states, no one's arguing that a homebirth won't be safe 99.9% of the time. It's the .1% of the time that things can go wrong even when they shouldn't that I'm referring to. Even taking the very slight possibility of additional risk is, in my opinion, foolhardy when the benefits are either comfort or bragging rights...

(BTW: the first paragraph is fact, the second is a personal belief and opinion of the ramifications of that fact)

Some people have a genuine fear of hospitals, does that mean they shouldn't get pregnant?

Also, they may have had a less than brilliant experience in the hospital the last time, the system in Ireland is horrible, you labour they way they want you to unless you are very vocal about it. You have to dilate 1cm every hour or else they want to start interfering with unnatural methods. The first time I gave birth, I was disgusted, grown women actually left their sanitary pads lying on the floor in the toilets and showers... at least you know when you're at home it's clean, comfy and if anything does happen the midwives are a lot more attentive to you and will transfer to hospital at the first signs of distress.

Of course there are risks with homebirths, but there are risks with hospital births too.

nesf

January wrote: »

Some people have a genuine fear of hospitals, does that mean they shouldn't get pregnant?

Also, they may have had a less than brilliant experience in the hospital the last time, the system in Ireland is horrible, you labour they way they want you to unless you are very vocal about it. You have to dilate 1cm every hour or else they want to start interfering with unnatural methods. The first time I gave birth, I was disgusted, grown women actually left their sanitary pads lying on the floor in the toilets and showers... at least you know when you're at home it's clean, comfy and if anything does happen the midwives are a lot more attentive to you and will transfer to hospital at the first signs of distress.

Of course there are risks with homebirths, but there are risks with hospital births too.

If you need an emergency c-section as fast as humanly possible you'll be glad you put up with the crap in hospital (and yeah, there is crap, no argument there). This is the reason I've so much worry about people recommending this route to first time mothers. Until you've gone through a labour once you can't be sure if you can do it easily. My mother was a low risk when she had me but I nearly died due to losing oxygen and she was never left have a natural birth again after it for fear of losing a baby. The first baby is so, so much more risky than the latter ones (assuming no new risk factors come on after the first pregnancy).

Edit: We're talking about outliers here. For every woman like my mother, at least a hundred more will have pregnancies with no problems. This is exactly why asking for opinions from people who've had home births and looking at the average statistics doesn't work. If you don't have a track record of hassle free pregnancies I really do not see why you'd want to take the risk here.

SanFran07

Deliverance wrote: »

I have a friend whom has chosen this option. Any experiences or advice in this sense? It is his first and I think that it isi a brave choice to say the least. Any advice and experience that I can pass on would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Why not just support your friend in his decision?

It's unclear to me what the purpose of your question is? Are you planning on discussing your findings from Boards.ie with him to encourage him to change his mind?

I'm quite sure every couple who has ever considered having a homebirth has heard all of these arguments before (it's rarely a decision that's taken lightly). One thing that comes up time and time again in homebirth support meetings is the regret of discussing their choice with unsupportive friends/family.

Encourage your friend and his partner to go along to a homebirth support meeting where they'll get the support and information they need from couples who have had homebirths themselves. I guarantee you'll stay friends longer that way...

January

Sounds like the OP is being supportive if you read back over the post...

mickydcork

Accoucheur wrote: »

My wife has had three absolutely beautiful births at home in the birthpool. I was so inspired I choose to go back to school and do a midwifery course after the first. Even after learning all the pathologies that women can acquire throughout their lives and during pregnancy, my faith in homebirth remains unshaken. Too many times I have felt that women's lives have been put into jeopardy by setting foot in the hospital at all. As for risk, I would say it is risky just opening the door of my house and crossing the street or getting in my car and driving. That doesn't stop me from choosing to open my door.

What is this feeling based on? Is it based on facts at all?

Just looking at maternal death/obstetrical death figures - estimated global maternal mortality numbers in 2008 were 342,900 (down from 526,300 in 1980)*. Not to mind looking at the decline since the turn of the last century.

The decline in maternal deaths has been due largely to improved asepsis, fluid management and blood transfusion and better prenatal care.

All these advancements have been as a result of modern science, modern medicine and the increasing access world-wide to medical centres which can provide these modern practices.

Who's scaremongering now?

*Hogan MC et al (2010). "Maternal mortality for 181 countries, 1980—2008: a systematic analysis of progress towards Millennium Development Goal 5". The Lancet 375 (9726): 1609–1623. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(10)60518-1.

Hobbitfeet

mickydcork wrote: »

What is this feeling based on? Is it based on facts at all?

Just looking at maternal death/obstetrical death figures - estimated global maternal mortality numbers in 2008 were 342,900 (down from 526,300 in 1980). Not to mind looking at the decline since the turn of the last century.

The decline in maternal deaths has been due largely to improved asepsis, fluid management and blood transfusion and better prenatal care.

All these advancements have been as a result of modern science, modern medicine and the increasing access world-wide to medical centres which can provide these modern practices.

Who's scaremongering now?

Maybe have a read through these articles and you will see the differences between outcomes of birth in hospital or home.

http://informedbirthireland.com/prenatal.htm

http://www.naturalbirthandbabycare.com/farm-statistics.html

SanFran07

It's not exactly scaremongering - the lead Obstetricians are in the papers every day (including today)highlighting the risks to women and babies because of the lack of investment in maternity care.


http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0124/limerick.html

http://www.independent.ie/health/staff-are-so-busy-lives-are-at-risk-rotunda-boss-admits-2933622.html

nesf

I'm sorry but this is just unacceptable. Link to some actual independent stats showing home births in Ireland are safer than hospital births not including high risk births which will only be done in hospital or retract the statements about it being riskier to have births in hospitals.*

This is a very, very serious topic. If you're going to make claims to fact you're going to have to back them up if they are at all contentious.


*It is absolutely fine to argue that home births may be a more preferable experience for mothers-to-be on the other hand. That's an opinion not a claim to fact.



Edit: The problem here is that medical facts are being discussed. I'm sorry but this has to be very seriously dealt with and people are not entitled to their own facts here. If you want to claim something is more dangerous in general you're going to have to back that up with official stats or some other independent source.

SanFran07

January wrote: »

Sounds like the OP is being supportive if you read back over the post...

Apologies to the OP if that's what was intended - when a homebirth discussion starts off with the word 'brave' more often than not it implies a less than supportive position.

nesf

SanFran07 wrote: »

It's not exactly scaremongering - the lead Obstetricians are in the papers every day (including today)highlighting the risks to women and babies because of the lack of investment in maternity care.


http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0124/limerick.html

http://www.independent.ie/health/staff-are-so-busy-lives-are-at-risk-rotunda-boss-admits-2933622.html

Think about that for a second. They are talking about emergency cases, serious complications and the like. You'll be treated in hospital for these regardless of whether it's a home birth or not.

SanFran07

nesf wrote: »

Think about that for a second. They are talking about emergency cases, serious complications and the like. You'll be treated in hospital for these regardless of whether it's a home birth or not.

Unfortunately this is not just about complicated cases but basic 1:1 Midwifery care that all women should have access to.

nesf

SanFran07 wrote: »

Unfortunately this is not just about complicated cases but basic 1:1 Midwifery care that all women should have access to.

True, I missed that part of the article.

mickydcork

nesf wrote: »

Edit: The problem here is that medical facts are being discussed. I'm sorry but this has to be very seriously dealt with and people are not entitled to their own facts here. If you want to claim something is more dangerous in general you're going to have to back that up with official stats or some other independent source.

I agree, the stats I quoted regarding worldwide maternal deaths were taken from the following paper in the noted medical journal Lancet

Hogan MC et al (2010). "Maternal mortality for 181 countries, 1980—2008: a systematic analysis of progress towards Millennium Development Goal 5". The Lancet 375 (9726): 1609–1623. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(10)60518-1.

I think the links to the articles in post #31 should be removed as the stats quoted within are not referenced properly

edit: I have reported post #31

nesf

mickydcork wrote: »

I think the links to the articles in post #31 should be removed as the stats quoted within are not referenced properly

The poster will be given a chance to withdraw them before that happens.

GoerGirl

The problem with Ireland's maternal death rate is that our classification system in Ireland masks a bigger issue. In Ireland only direct deaths in pregnancy, at the time of delivery or within 42 days post partum are classified as maternal death. In the UK, for example, a maternal death is classified at a death in pregnancy, delivery, up to a year post partum and includes direct and indirect death (suicide, homicide, abortion, etc). If Ireland used the same classification system as the UK, our rates would go from 2 per 100,000 to 10 per 100,000, which would put us on par with other EU countries (but without the option of abortion...currently Irish maternal deaths relating to abortion are classified in UK stats).

In terms of maternity services, our staffing level ratios (for midwives and obstetricians) were deemed inadequate during the celtic tiger.... this is only intensified as with the moratorium on hiring new midwives/doctors in conjunction with soaring birth rates.....

The UK is seeing similar issues - low staff levels means 1 midwife to an inadequate and unsafe level of women in labour - for example this case in which 1 midwife to 9 women resulted in the loss of a baby: http://www.midwiferyonline.co.uk/threads/2167-Midwife-rushed-off-feet-in-Derriford-baby-death-case

Hobbitfeet

nesf wrote: »

The poster will be given a chance to withdraw them before that happens.

Are you referring to the links I have posted? If so what is the problem with them?

GoerGirl

Just another point on the Midwife led vs hospital birth issue - the evidence has shown that low risk women have higher rates of intervention and adverse affect in consultant led care vs midwife led care. As the majority of maternity care in Ireland follows consultant led policy, this would suggest the same woman is more likely to have interventions/instrumental outcomes in hospital than she would under midwife led care at home or in a MLU setting.

The choice to have a baby at home is individual - its not for everyone - but it has been shown to be a safe option. Like everything, it is a case of finding the care options that fits you individually best. Removal of choice is never best practice and homebirth is a care option which should be viable for women in Ireland.

nesf

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

Are you referring to the links I have posted? If so what is the problem with them?

You posted them as proof of hospital being more dangerous than home births. Neither link shows this to be true to any reasonable degree of proof, neither link is neutral or independent (i.e. neither is from Government sources or independent peer reviewed journals) and the second link's stats dealt with a US State not Ireland so have nothing to do with the point.

This is a matter of fact, not opinion, if you're going to argue that death rates are higher in hospitals you're going to have to show this very clearly.


This thread is extremely close to being locked if these kinds of claims are going to be made. There is a line here with regard to medical advice and it shall not be crossed.

nesf

GoerGirl wrote: »

Just another point on the Midwife led vs hospital birth issue - the evidence has shown that low risk women have higher rates of intervention/caesarean section and adverse affect in consultant led care vs midwife led care.

I've seen this before myself but if you could link to some evidence for this it would be good.

nesf

I am sorry for intervening in this thread and I don't like doing so in general in this forum but there is only one way we're going to have a discussion about the safety of hospital births and that's an evidence based one. As such people are going to have to provide good quality evidence to support their assertions from this point forward or this thread will be locked.

This is far too serious a topic to be dealt with in any other way, I apologise for the hassle this will cause when debating it.

Hobbitfeet

nesf wrote: »

You posted them as proof of hospital being more dangerous than home births. Neither link shows this to be true to any reasonable degree of proof, neither link is neutral or independent (i.e. neither is from Government sources or independent peer reviewed journals) and the second link's stats dealt with a US State not Ireland so have nothing to do with the point.

None of my posts on this thread say that giving birth in hospital is more dangerous, I did not say here is the proof in these links I said you will see the differences in outcomes between both. If you read fully through the 1st link you will see the info comes from WHO former Director of the Women’s and Children’s Health for the World Health Organization Dr. Marsden Wagner. The second link stats can also be seen in the 1st link and is stated in this link the research is from 1994, the American Journal of Public Health. The reason I included The Farm link is because is a long running home birth centre and there is nothing like this in Ireland to reference.


This is a matter of fact, not opinion, if you're going to argue that death rates are higher in hospitals you're going to have to show this very clearly.

Please show me where I have argued death rates are higher in hospital? I never said this. Please do not put words in my mouth. Show me where I have said this or retract your post.


This thread is extremely close to being locked if these kinds of claims are going to be made. There is a line here with regard to medical advice and it shall not be crossed.[/QUOTE]

nesf

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

Please show me where I have argued death rates are higher in hospital? I never said this. Please do not put words in my mouth. Show me where I have said this or retract your post.

The original quote:

Too many times I have felt that women's lives have been put into jeopardy by setting foot in the hospital at all.

The obvious implication is that home births are safer, since a woman has to give birth somewhere and I doubt the OP was suggesting giving birth in a car driving around a roundabout or similar.


Evidence for this was asked for. You replied with your links. This is where I'm getting it from. The implication of your post is that the links support the OPs assertion. If you did not want this implication you should have made your post clearer.

Hobbitfeet

nesf wrote: »

The obvious implication is that home births are safer, since a woman has to give birth somewhere and I doubt the OP was suggesting giving birth in a car driving around a roundabout or similar.


Evidence for this was asked for. You replied with your links. This is where I'm getting it from. The implication of your post is that the links support the OPs assertion. If you did not want this implication you should have made your post clearer.

I think my post was very clear I said here are some links that show different outcomes of giving birth at home v hospital from WHO and the American Journal of Public Health, I think both are very creditable sources. You stated my links were " neither link is neutral or independent (i.e. neither is from Government sources or independent peer reviewed journals) "which is untrue, Is the WHO not a good place to get info on births??

You also accused me of arguing death rates are higher in hospital which I have not. Show me where I have mentioned death rates?? I think maybe you make your posts clearer instead of putting words in others peoples mouths and accusing them of making such statements. I think you have my posts mixed up with what someone else on her has said? "Too many times I have felt that women's lives have been put into jeopardy by setting foot in the hospital at all." This is not my post you have quoted that it is

Would you like to show some evidence that giving birth in hospital is safer than giving birth at home?

GoerGirl

nesf wrote: »

I've seen this before myself but if you could link to some evidence for this it would be good.

Sorry, just seeing this.

Midwife led care vs consultant led care in low risk women: women more likely to suffer adverse affects (episiotomy, instrumental birth, etc)

Women who received midwife-led care were less likely to have fetal/neonatal loss before 24 weeks, episiotomy, regional analgesia/anaesthesia, instrumental birth, or antenatal hospitalisation; and were more likely to have no intrapartum analgesia/anaesthesia, spontaneous vaginal birth, to feel in control, to be attended at birth by a known midwife and to initiate breastfeeding. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2393/11/85

MidU study: The 'MidU' ('Midwifery Unit') study showed that midwifery-led care, as practised in these units, is as safe as consultant-led care but uses less intervention in pregnancy and childbirth. Almost half of the women in the CLUs (49%) had their labours speeded up by either having their waters broken or having oxytocin, a hormone, given intravenously by 'drip', compared with a third (34%) of women in the MLUs. At birth, women in the MLU had a higher rate of spontaneous pushing and 20% used upright positions for birthing compared with 6% in the CLU. In addition, 13% did not require any drugs to speed up the after-birth, compared with just 1 woman (0.2%) in the CLU. http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/newscentre/200920082007Archive/dec09/MidUstudy.html

cochrane: http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD004667/midwife-led-versus-other-models-of-care-for-childbearing-women

In terms of Caesarean section - ESRI has shown there is a rise in caesarean section for private led consultant led care which cannot be explained by risk factors.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/csection-rate-50pc-higher-for-mothers-who-go-private-2967937.html

There is also significant evidence which suggests that induction increases your chances of Caesarean Section. Consultant led policy varies on induction for post dates; ie not medically indicated (anywhere from EDD to term+10 in some units). Midwife led Units and homebirth follow the term+14 guidelines for induction.

However, I should not have included caesarean section into the reduced benefits of midwife led over consultant led care as the evidence suggests there is little or no reduction and I will edit that out of my post in order to keep my post fully in keeping with the evidence alone.

nesf

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

I think my post was very clear I said here are some links that show different outcomes of giving birth at home v hospital from WHO and the American Journal of Public Health, I think both are very creditable sources. You stated my links were " neither link is neutral or independent (i.e. neither is from Government sources or independent peer reviewed journals) "which is untrue, Is the WHO not a good place to get info on births??

You also accused me of arguing death rates are higher in hospital which I have not. Show me where I have mentioned death rates?? I think maybe you make your posts clearer instead of putting words in others peoples mouths and accusing them of making such statements. I think you have my posts mixed up with what someone else on her has said? "Too many times I have felt that women's lives have been put into jeopardy by setting foot in the hospital at all." This is not my post you have quoted that it is

The problem is that it was not clear enough since me and another mod saw your post as arguing proof that home births were safer and another poster reported it. If you quote someone asking for proof and provide a bunch of links then it's always going to be interpreted as providing the evidence that was asked for! You need to make it extremely clear that you're not providing said evidence in your post, which you did not do I'm afraid.

The issue with your link is that it's not a primary source. So linking to the WHO saying something is fine, linking to someone using the WHO to argue a point from is different. Just because someone is using the WHO for references doesn't mean they are being independent only that their sources are independent. This goes for both sides of the argument.

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

Would you like to show some evidence that giving birth in hospital is safer than giving birth at home?

I've been very careful not to make that claim (actually I've argued that for the vast majority of women home births should be perfectly safe, so on average home births should be safe, so you should be asking me for evidence of this!), so no I don't need to provide evidence for that.

pippington

I think everybody is getting away from the fact that the lowest risk pregnancy can end up, for no reason, in a high risk birth or unexpected difficulties for mother and child.
For those who would like home birth then it is unfortunate that it is not more readily available for them, but you cannot argue for or against home birth when every single pregnant woman will have an individual pregnancy, delivery etc. I could have a low risk pregnancy and want a home birth and everything could go perfect, then great, but I could also be in the unlucky minority who have a low risk pregnancy and everything goes wrong, be it at home or in hospital. Home birth will, most likely never be the norm because people are so afraid of the just in cases. No Consultant/Midwife can guarantee that everything is going to go 100% perfectly, they can be as amazing at their job as they like and the tiniest thing can go wrong, for this reason it will never be the norm.

Also, we are an increasingly litigious society, things go wrong in birth, any professional would like to be seen to do everything possible for the child or mother and thats more difficult to prove in a home birth scenario. Midwives who are fantastic in their field are often brought up for malpractice cos we always feel the blame has to lie somewhere.

I think you cant tell anyone home birth is wrong or that hospital birth is wrong, its individual choice and yes for fairness those who want home birth should be able to have one without ridicule. So should people who choose to have a hospital birth.