What is going on with UCDSU??

Pride Fighter

First of all, I'll say this. I am no longer a student here, graduating a few years ago. But I still feel an attachment to the old place, and I go out there to play football once a week.

Without getting into personal details or anything like that, can someone tell me what is going on with the Students Union? I heard about the closure of the photocopying centre in December and felt it was extremely bad form to sack people just before Christmas, ruining a happy Christmas for them and their families.

I have heard this story today http://www.collegetribune.ie/index.php/2012/01/student-outrage-over-books-dumped/

14-18k worth of books thrown away. What on earth is happening there?

If mods want to close this, that's fine. I can understand that.I dont want people ranting and raving and saying unsubstantiated things.

Fad

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Without getting into personal details or anything like that, can someone tell me what is going on with the Students Union? I heard about the closure of the photocopying centre in December and felt it was extremely bad form to sack people just before Christmas, ruining a happy Christmas for them and their families.

I have heard this story today http://www.collegetribune.ie/index.php/2012/01/student-outrage-over-books-dumped/

14-18k worth of books thrown away. What on earth is happening there?

Closure is poorly timed, I can agree with that much, but I cannot understand how people get outraged about a service that only helps a limited chunk of the student body.... Printing off lecture notes really isn't that hard, blackboard exists for a reason, if lecturers dont know that/refuse to use it, it is a seperate issue for the education officer to try and deal with.... I dont understand how it'll affect anyone's education tbh

As for that valuation, I would imagine it is wildly out of proportion....

I went through those books looking for some actually useful ones, sure if I wanted a book on Java SE4, it'd be great, but the vast majority are worthless and old, if people took them, fair play, but I would imagine most of them are fairly redundant tbh.

I like ragging on the SU as much as the next person, but these two issues are just not that major...

Mardy Bum

The SU is also a million euro in debt (see here), I can't really get my head around how it could manage to find itself that far in debt without somebody questioning it a few years before this and altering the whole union however I suppose that is pretty endemic of the country as a whole.

You'll generally find that people who stick up for the SU on this forum will be financial beneficiaries of the SU themselves, through societies etc. It seems, to an outsider such as myself, like the most abhorrent of organisations. Massive waste. Cúnts at every level with their grubby little hands out willing to stick up for it. I could be totally wrong of course.

I struggle to think of even one single benefit that I've received from my roughly €300 paid directly to the SU so far. I'd love to be enlightened though!

errlloyd

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You'll generally find that people who stick up for the SU on this forum will be financial beneficiaries of the SU themselves, through societies etc. It seems, to an outsider such as myself, like the most abhorrent of organisations. Massive waste. Cúnts at every level with their grubby little hands out willing to stick up for it. I could be totally wrong of course.

I struggle to think of even one single benefit that I've received from my roughly €300 paid directly to the SU so far. I'd love to be enlightened though!

Societies are completely independent from the SU. A lot of them are older then the SU. They are economically independent from the SU. Only Belfield FM and The Observer are SU supported.

As for this number of 300? Fairly sure you made it up. Your contribution is something like 27 euro a year. I am as anti SU as the next man, and I think the book throwing out was moronic, but its good value. If you want to have this argument have it in another thread.

If you want to bash SU officers go ahead. I also disagree with a lot of work they do. But I never for a second doubt they're doing work worthy of the relatively **** amount of pay they actually receive.

thats fantastic that you feel like you're getting such value from the su. Personally i define an organisation as being fundamentally flawed when my only interaction with it is when i'm being asked to pay at the start of the year. And as for the services they provide? Well i paid quite a lot whenever i used the copy place, its not like it was free.

whats the relatively **** amount of money? The only figure i've seen was roughly 50k pa. They dont deserve a third of that!

Fad

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The SU is also a million euro in debt (see here), I can't really get my head around how it could manage to find itself that far in debt without somebody questioning it a few years before this and altering the whole union however I suppose that is pretty endemic of the country as a whole.

Accounts were never public, no one really knew.

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You'll generally find that people who stick up for the SU on this forum will be financial beneficiaries of the SU themselves, through societies etc. It seems, to an outsider such as myself, like the most abhorrent of organisations. Massive waste. Cúnts at every level with their grubby little hands out willing to stick up for it. I could be totally wrong of course.

I struggle to think of even one single benefit that I've received from my roughly €300 paid directly to the SU so far. I'd love to be enlightened though!

I'll defend the SU for schemes they run that are legitimately helpful/whatever (Like pretty much anything run by the welfare end of things), I think the vast majority of ents is just wasteful (New constitution will likely sort that tbh), campaigns is just a non-position and so on.

I am unwilling to get into specifics for a variety of reasons.

errlloyd wrote: »

Societies are completely independent from the SU. A lot of them are older then the SU. They are economically independent from the SU. Only Belfield FM and The Observer are SU supported.

As for this number of 300? Fairly sure you made it up. Your contribution is something like 27 euro a year. I am as anti SU as the next man, and I think the book throwing out was moronic, but its good value. If you want to have this argument have it in another thread.

If you want to bash SU officers go ahead. I also disagree with a lot of work they do. But I never for a second doubt they're doing work worthy of the relatively **** amount of pay they actually receive.

Yeah, there's seems to be some chronic misinformation regarding how much the SU gets from different people.

I disagree with the last sentence though..... some of them are doing work blah blah blah.....

fad, i would have zero problem if every cent i gave the su was spent on student welfare, mental health etc. You know, equipping people with the tools they meed to live a fuller life while at a supposedly world class center of learning!

errlloyd

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

whats the relatively **** amount of money? The only figure i've seen was roughly 50k pa. They dont deserve a third of that!

Its about 18-20 tax free.

Think most of us would be hoping thats not far off our starting salaries when we leave?

As for doing work Fad. I'd say the Welfare officer this year has done on average about 11 hours a weekday, and 5 hours a day most weekends. Now she's a workaholic, but thats another issue.

I guess the office you're in mostly is a **** load closer to them then the office I am mostly. We're fairly insulated up in Roebuck.

Fad

errlloyd wrote: »

As for doing work Fad. I'd say the Welfare officer this year has done on average about 11 hours a weekday, and 5 hours a day most weekends. Now she's a workaholic, but thats another issue.

I guess the office you're in mostly is a **** load closer to them then the office I am mostly. We're fairly insulated up in Roebuck.

She's mental.

I tend to ignore whatever SU stuff is going on around me (Because I generally dont care), becoming increasingly jaded as I go on in the year... I hear things, and oddly I see things, like particular sabbats being absent a lot. Anyway, I care care about one end of the union, ents can get to fúck.

errlloyd

errlloyd wrote: »

Its about 18-20 tax free.

Think most of us would be hoping thats not far off our starting salaries when we leave?

As for doing work Fad. I'd say the Welfare officer this year has done on average about 11 hours a weekday, and 5 hours a day most weekends. Now she's a workaholic, but thats another issue.

I guess the office you're in mostly is a **** load closer to them then the office I am mostly. We're fairly insulated up in Roebuck.

do you mean after tax?

Blut2

Fad wrote: »

Accounts were never public, no one really knew.

Whats the rational behind this? Surely it couldnt hurt to have the accounts be public, let people see where exactly their money is going. If its mostly on useful things (welfare services etc) rather than things like class rep party trips then I cant see it being a problem.

Fad

Blut2 wrote: »

Whats the rational behind this? Surely it couldnt hurt to have the accounts be public, let people see where exactly their money is going. If its mostly on useful things (welfare services etc) rather than things like class rep party trips then I cant see it being a problem.

I have absolutely no idea, I'm of the opinion weekly accounts should be done out and published.... And by that I mean, serious accounts, like how much each ents affiliated night takes in (How much the signature group makes would be interesting to know, keeping people honest too.....).

errlloyd

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

do you mean after tax?

Their position is required by the government so it isn't taxed. Or something similar to that.

No idea about the accounts tbh.

Oasis_Dublin

I don't think the sabats are immune from paying income tax anymore. Some have earned their 22k, while others absolutely have not. I'm sure you know exactly who I'm referring to.

Last year's ball ran at a loss... to be honest, it seems to be well known that Ents runs at a loss. It seems that the SU thinks it's redundant, judging by reports on a the new SU Constitution.

Pride Fighter

Fad wrote: »

Closure is poorly timed, I can agree with that much, but I cannot understand how people get outraged about a service that only helps a limited chunk of the student body.... Printing off lecture notes really isn't that hard, blackboard exists for a reason, if lecturers dont know that/refuse to use it, it is a seperate issue for the education officer to try and deal with.... I dont understand how it'll affect anyone's education tbh

When I did Arts, not that long ago mind you I found it a great resource, in tandem with online stuff like blackboard and JSTOR. Also the lecturers used to put in book chapters of out of print books, and with all the books in the library always taken when you look for them for your essays it was vital, and still would be even in a more modern world.

Also even if they were to close the place, they could shuffle the staff into another area to provide a service for the students. Some of the staff were there over 20 years and were treated like something you'd step on.

Anyway, thanks for the answers folks. Seems to be that the apathy I witnessed in college towards the SU has gotten even worse. Such a shame as Universities should be highly politicised and radical, when UCD seems to be the opposite. The spirit of 1968 is dead and gone, it's with Hugh Brady in the grave.


**Disclaimer, I wish no harm upon Hugh Brady, it just rhymed with the Yeats poem

._.

Pride Fighter wrote: »

When I did Arts, not that long ago mind you I found it a great resource

Great, that's one person.

I guess those rumors of there not being enough people using it to support the service weren't true after all because this guy who used to do arts in UCD said he used it!
Those damn Liars, I bet they just closed it down for fun.

Riamfada

I pretty much said all of this three years ago. No one listened to me then no one gave a ****e. I doubt anyone will give a ****e this year either.

I asked for reform of the union and went to my rep who was too afraid to propose a motion in council. She didnt want to rock the boat. I asked about funding for pens and stupid events and the mismanagement of funds and was told to shut up. 1m in debt. Cant say I am entire suprised but on the other hand

OMGWTF SWIMMING POOOL !!!!!

Oasis_Dublin

Did I read somewhere that they spent 8,000 on stationary last year? You could virtually fund the radio station for that amount!

wow. Makes you wonder if there are any personal relationships involved in these transactions. The su invites this kind of scrutiny by not making accounts public.

LifesaverNiall

The accounts will be public in about 2-3 weeks time dont worry

Sl!mCharles

._. wrote: »

Great, that's one person.

I guess those rumors of there not being enough people using it to support the service weren't true after all because this guy who used to do arts in UCD said he used it!
Those damn Liars, I bet they just closed it down for fun.

LoL good one.

I also made us of the copy print to get notes while it was open, and often when I went in, there would be a decent few people ahead of me. It most definitely was used by a substantial amount of students.

LifesaverNiall

LifesaverNiall wrote: »

The accounts will be public in about 2-3 weeks time dont worry

Is this a new thing or was it a straw-man when it was presented to me in the first place?

._.

Sl!mCharles wrote: »

LoL good one.

I also made us of the copy print to get notes while it was open, and often when I went in, there would be a decent few people ahead of me. It most definitely was used by a substantial amount of students.

...Why did they close it down then? To improve their public image?

In any case, anecdotal evidence like you just posted isn't evidence at all.

Fad

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Is this a new thing or was it a straw-man when it was presented to me in the first place?

Pat announced (Last week at SU council iirc, I was there taking notes as a favour to someone) that they accounting firm that's going through all the accounts is nearly done and that the accounts will be released in two or three weeks.

steddyeddy

The welfare officer is a star. I hope shes reading this becuase I know a lot of people in very difficult circumstances she went above the call of duty for. Having said that theres others in the su that should give a credible explanation about the 100,000 debt.

Pacifist Pigeon

Students should not have to pay for the Union fee up front. It should be voluntary.

That'll but pressure of the UCDSU to perform so that they can get students can sign up and pay voluntarily for their "services".

A sizable amount of the Union's budget goes to the UCD Ball. I don't pay a Union fee for a stupid low-grade concert/piss-up - in fact I've never gone to anything that Ents has organised. The UCD Ball should be cancelled and UCD Ents should be irradiated. A waste of bloody money if you ask me and I'd say a majority of UCD students don't benefit from it. These sort of social events should be left to societies. I'd rather money from UCD Ents going into more photocopying service/ SUAS computers (especially around the science block).

UCDSU officers' salaries should also be cut (big time). Some Sabbats don't deserve ~€20,000 a year for the amount of "work" they do.

Also, term limits should be introduced. Two years max (maybe less!!) for any sabbatical officer.

Another idea would be to have two "union" bodies competing against each other to provide better services.

Finally, UCDSU NEEDS TO BE TAUGHT ABOUT THE MERITS OF FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY!!

steddyeddy

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

Students should not have to pay for the Union fee up front. It should be voluntary.

That'll but pressure of the UCDSU to perform so that they can get students can sign up and pay voluntarily for their "services".

A sizable amount of the Union's budget goes to the UCD Ball. I don't pay a Union fee for a stupid low-grade concert/piss-up - in fact I've never gone to anything that Ents has organised. The UCD Ball should be cancelled and UCD Ents should be irradiated. A waste of bloody money if you ask me and I'd say a majority of UCD students don't benefit from it. These sort of social events should be left to societies. I'd rather money from UCD Ents going into more photocopying service/ SUAS computers (especially around the science block).

UCDSU officers' salaries should also be cut (big time). Some Sabbats don't deserve ~€20,000 a year for the amount of "work" they do.

Also, term limits should be introduced. Two years max (maybe less!!) for any sabbatical officer.

Another idea would be to have two "union" bodies competing against each other to provide better services.

Finally, UCDSU NEEDS TO BE TAUGHT ABOUT THE MERITS OF FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY!!

+1

Blut2

To be fair, Ents, when run by a competent sabbat, is a great asset to UCD. Some fantastic acts have played the student bar over the last 5 years; these have no doubt enriched the college experiences of thousands of students. The problem is that when its run by someone incompetent its allowed to operate at a massive loss.

A bit more oversight of Ents by the general SU (someone should really have rubbished the more grandiose UCD Ball plans of certain recent years that ended up as abject failures - 40e to see some has been boy bands? Really?) and a bit more oversight of the general SU's budget (through public accounts) by the students would help massively in solving this.

Sl!mCharles

._. wrote: »

...Why did they close it down then? To improve their public image?

In any case, anecdotal evidence like you just posted isn't evidence at all.

Christ, just giving my own experience of the place.
You seemed sure in your previous post that only one person had ever step foot in there.

You are wrong.

Chucky the tree

Blut2 wrote: »

Whats the rational behind this? Surely it couldnt hurt to have the accounts be public, let people see where exactly their money is going. If its mostly on useful things (welfare services etc) rather than things like class rep party trips then I cant see it being a problem.

Make it alot harder to skim money when you publish the accounts. Also makes it alot hard to play the hard up routine when you are spunking your money off on sh1te left, right and centre.

Inhousejoke

There was a protest yesterday against the shutting down of the copy bureau and the sacking of the two women who worked there. It was probably the biggest protest in UCD for a good few years, looking at around ~300 people. It was called by Save UCD SU Staff and Services . While a lot of people were angry about closing the copy bureau, I reckon a lot of people were there as well to vent at the union in general, which has been getting a lot of flack lately, and rightly so.

Here's a video when the protest arrived in the student centre. The sabbats did quite possibly the worst thing they could have done, and tried to lock the doors to the SU corriodor! (how they thought that that wouldn't piss people off, I have no clue). Cue a bit of a "storming" of the corridor ( it was fairly relaxed to to be honest ), then Pat came out and started speaking, at which point I had to leg it to meet up with a lecturer.

And at the rally at the lake before we marched down to the student centre, some of the restaurant staff (who are facing privitisation) were there wearing their kitchen gear and showing solidarity. ****ing amazing day.

Chucky the tree

Have the protesters come up with a solution as to how to pay for it? It's easy to whinge about it, anyone can do that, but coming up with solutions to solve it would also help.

delta_bravo

How was it running a loss of 40k per annum?

I have been a big critic of the SU over the years but if they're 1m in debt and they have a venture that is running an annual loss and is fairly obsolete nowadays with online resources it was bound to go.

OneOfThem Stumbled

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Have the protesters come up with a solution as to how to pay for it? It's easy to whinge about it, anyone can do that, but coming up with solutions to solve it would also help.

Couldn't the SU just get rid of the Equality Officer (formerly Women's Officer)/ Irish Officer/ or Ents Officer (each of which are paid circa €30-40 K and boom! Problem solved?

gradlife

I have read somewhere(don't quote me on this) that they are reducing the number of sabbats next year.

Dwaegon

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

Students should not have to pay for the Union fee up front. It should be voluntary.

Then people would not pay it until they needed the SU, but it would be too late as the union would be impossible to sustain without getting that budget per annum. Imagine losing the welfare officer two months into the year because not enough people had opted in to the SU???

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

UCDSU officers' salaries should also be cut (big time). Some Sabbats don't deserve ~€20,000 a year for the amount of "work" they do.

Ah yes, because you follow each sabbat around all day seeing every little thing they do, do you?

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

Also, term limits should be introduced. Two years max (maybe less!!) for any sabbatical officer.

2 year max term is fairly standard in most SU's as far as I know. Not sure of UCDSU policy as it's not really nailed down in the constitution.

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

Another idea would be to have two "union" bodies competing against each other to provide better services.

So split the funding between two organisations to both do the same job?
...I don't think that will work! I think it would be better to have a single organisation, otherwise the friction between the two could hinder their effectiveness and damage their credibility...

Dwaegon

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Couldn't the SU just get rid of the Equality Officer (formerly Women's Officer)/ Irish Officer/ or Ents Officer (each of which are paid circa €30-40 K and boom! Problem solved?

Where in the hell are you getting these figures???

(Link or gtfo)

Fad

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Couldn't the SU just get rid of the Equality Officer (formerly Women's Officer)/ Irish Officer/ or Ents Officer (each of which are paid circa €30-40 K and boom! Problem solved?

Ents officer is paid, the rest of them aren't paid anything.

WeeBushy

And anyway, all that would do is postpone the problem for a year. You'd then have to get rid of another sabat the year after to keep the copy bureau, and another the year after... hang on a sec... we could be on to something here

OneOfThem Stumbled

Dwaegon wrote: »

Where in the hell are you getting these figures???

(Link or gtfo)

Because I remember seeing the positions advertised with the associated yearly wage. Sabbatical officers are treated as paid employees.

Bing: http://www.collegetribune.ie/index.php/2011/01/ucdsu-sabbatical-officers-hold-open-meeting/

Maybe you can get a better source but I did only do 30 seconds googling. It is a year old.

Dwaegon

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Because I remember seeing the positions advertised with the associated yearly wage. Sabbatical officers are treated as paid employees.

Bing: http://www.collegetribune.ie/index.php/2011/01/ucdsu-sabbatical-officers-hold-open-meeting/

Maybe you can get a better source but I did only do 30 seconds googling. It is a year old.

How did you see those positions advertised like that when
a) only one of them is actually paid;
b) all of them are filled by open elections;

Please do more than 30 seconds googling if you're going to try answer a question!

OneOfThem Stumbled

Dwaegon wrote: »

How did you see those positions advertised like that when
a) only one of them is actually paid;
b) all of them are filled by open elections;

Please do more than 30 seconds googling if you're going to try answer a question!

So the Ents officer, by himself, is paid €100,000

Sigh.

I have known someone who was Vice-president, was paid somewhere in the region of 30 k, maybe a bit less. The Sabbatical Officers are meant to be filling full time jobs. That's why they are called sabbatical officers (they aren't allowed be in education for instance). ffs why do you think there is so much competition for the positions?

Not all the positions are filled by direct election although most obviously are. There are a couple of positions that are completely unpaid but these are in the minority and may be just part-time positions. I really can't be arsed to research it any more deeply - but by all means feel free to do so yourself!

:pac:

Edit: besides which, even though I only read 3 lines of the article I cited, this one did kindof jump out at me: "Each sabbatical officer is currently paid a €400 a week salary by the Students’ Union." What's the point of googling for you if I even have to read it for you too?

Dwaegon

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

So the Ents officer, by himself, is paid €100,000

Sigh.

I have known someone who was Vice-president, was paid somewhere in the region of 30 k, maybe a bit less. The Sabbatical Officers are meant to be filling full time jobs. That's why they are called sabbatical officers (they aren't allowed be in education for instance). ffs why do you think there is so much competition for the positions?

Not all the positions are filled by direct election although most obviously are. There are a couple of positions that are completely unpaid but these are in the minority and may be just part-time positions. I really can't be arsed to research it any more deeply - but by all means feel free to do so yourself!

:pac:

Edit: besides which, even though I only read 3 lines of the article I cited, this one did kindof jump out at me: "Each sabbatical officer is currently paid a €400 a week salary by the Students’ Union." What's the point of googling for you if I even have to read it for you too?

The positions I was referring to were the three from this post:

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Couldn't the SU just get rid of the Equality Officer (formerly Women's Officer)/ Irish Officer/ or Ents Officer (each of which are paid circa €30-40 K and boom! Problem solved?

Besides, €400 X 52(weeks) is €20,800, so you are clearly pulling that €30-40K out of your a$$.

Don't think I don't know how Student Unions work, I have been elected to and served a term on an Exec for a year!

OneOfThem Stumbled

Dwaegon wrote: »

Besides, €400 X 52(weeks) is €20,800, so you are clearly pulling that €30-40K out of your a$$.

Ah, now we're just getting into semantics. You forgot I prefixed my statement with 'circa'.

My original point still stands. If the SU Copying Centre is a priority then paid positions in the SU can be cut. It is self evident that there are multiple paid positions in the SU. I'm stressing 'if'. There are alternatives to its services.

Dwaegon

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

My original point still stands. If the SU Copying Centre is a priority then paid positions in the SU can be cut. It is self evident that there are multiple paid positions in the SU. I'm stressing 'if'. There are alternatives to its services.

Which positions?

You already mentioned Ents, but there would be absolute uproar over that if they removed that position! You saw what happened when the ball last year almost didn't happen! No other positions provide that service, wheras there are alternate facilities to print/photocopy on campus.

errlloyd

Lads the sabbatical positions are the ones that take a year off. There are 5 of those.

Welfare
Education
President
Campaigns and Communications
Ents

What could you get rid of, probably the fourth, C&C. That officer is almost a project officer, he has a couple of jobs like running class rep training and essentially running any major campaigns, but otherwise his main job is looking for jobs. Which is why you can kinda cut him.

Traditionally its meant to run the campaigns for other officers, like ents creates an event, C&C promotes it, but mostly Ents and Welfare self promote through the use of their "crews" these didn't exist before, but now are pretty much happy to do lacky work for self satisfaction, CV building, guestlisting or to boost themselves in.

None of you seem to know a whole lot about the SU, please do ask questions, but please do respect the answers from those of us who've been around a while (and I'm only a third year). I know Fad and people have been pretty involved and know UCD politics pretty well.

Fad

errlloyd wrote: »

What could you get rid of, probably the fourth, C&C. That officer is almost a project officer, he has a couple of jobs like running class rep training and essentially running any major campaigns, but otherwise his main job is looking for jobs. Which is why you can kinda cut him.

Looking for jobs or proposing motions at council in advance of election time to make him (And his manifesto) look better :P

Riamfada

Dwaegon wrote: »

Which positions?

You already mentioned Ents, but there would be absolute uproar over that if they removed that position! You saw what happened when the ball last year almost didn't happen! No other positions provide that service, wheras there are alternate facilities to print/photocopy on campus.

Okay a few points. I think most college students human beings would rather see the copy print staff keep their jobs if it meant cancelling the UCD Ball. If you are saying that you would rather have a big party & spend 5k on pens & 15k on a party to Wexford then see Jackie retained you are what is wrong with the UCDSU.

Riamfada

Dwaegon wrote: »

No other positions provide that service, wheras there are alternate facilities to print/photocopy on campus.

Do societies not provide numerous & varied entertainment events?