How good a Judge of players is Kidney?

Luckycharm

How good a judge of players is Kidney?

Who released these players from Munster for them to flourish elsewhere who are now many capped internationals?

Mike Ross
Eoin Reddan

Now I see Munster could be trying to get back James Downey who was the Munster coach when he got released?

Is there any examples in the other provinces where a player has been let go by their province for them to flourish and become a many capped international player?
Jennings and leo went to tigers but then came back to leinster but neither would really be an established player and at least they were brought back - actually those 2 both went when Kidney came to Leinster as well.
Any other examples and not talking about players who went for Financial reasons?

buck65

Kidney is the most successful Irish coach for many years and certainly in the professional era. No other Irish coach has won a Grand Slam and 2 Heineken Cups. I reckon he knows a thing or two.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Luckycharm wrote: »

Now I see Munster could be trying to get back James Downey who was the Munster coach when he got released?

He refused a contract at Munster because he would have been behind Halstead I think

molloyjh

buck65 wrote: »

Kidney is the most successful Irish coach for many years and certainly in the professional era. No other Irish coach has won a Grand Slam and 2 Heineken Cups. I reckon he knows a thing or two.

Grand Slam was 3 years ago. And we were dragged over the line by individual players (BOD more than anyone). It's not like we won it convincingly.

1 HEC was 4 years ago and the other 6 years ago.

When are people going to stop living in the past? The game has moved on. The rest of the rugby world has moved on. Now can we please move on!?

Noopti

In fairness a coach can only judge based on a players current form/ability along with the other players he has in the squad competing for the same position. Just because a coach lets a player join another club only for them to come back after x number of years to become a mainstay in the international team, doesn't mean the coach is a bad judge of players.

You could just as easily say that the coach recognized their raw ability but realised that they would need to play consistently for that raw talent to be polished, and they would not get that time in their current club due to more experienced/polished players already in the position. So the coach sent them to a club with an opening for such a player, and the coaches judgement proved correct - they improved, became more polished and experienced and returned to help their country.

Not saying this is always the case, but your argument is a very broad one containing a lot of assumptions.

buck65

Sorry I though the question was about Kidney's judgement not about his recent trophy haul.

Neil3030

Hardly an established international, but Bob Casey certainly excelled after leaving Leinster.

irishbucsfan

Kidney didn't develop that succesful Munster team, nor did he develop the ireland grand slam team. Both were already there.

I think it is a major flaw of his, personally.

vinny chase

buck65 wrote: »

Sorry I though the question was about Kidney's judgement not about his recent trophy haul. But hey guys take over the thread as usual.

Er Tommy Bowe O~P~?

Tommy Bowe was a regular in the Ulster side; I think it was his decision to leave, not a case of a coach not rating him.

Edit: Unless you were referring to Eddie O'Sullivan perhaps not rating him?

CoDy1

How about we just get a mod to sticky a Kidney bashing thread???

buck65

George Hook actually:D

buck65

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Kidney didn't develop that succesful Munster team, nor did he develop the ireland grand slam team. Both were already there.

I think it is a major flaw of his, personally.

I think I'll come back to this thread when the rugby starts.

CatFromHue

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Kidney didn't develop that succesful Munster team, nor did he develop the ireland grand slam team. Both were already there.

I think it is a major flaw of his, personally.

How do you define develop?

It could easily be argued that Schmidt didn't develop this Leinster team.

irishbucsfan

buck65 wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Kidney didn't develop that succesful Munster team, nor did he develop the ireland grand slam team. Both were already there.

I think it is a major flaw of his, personally.

I think I'll come back to this thread when the rugby starts.

He won the heineken cup in his first year at Munster and the Grand Slam in his first year at Ireland. Both times taking succesful teams and pushing them over the edge.

Munster managed a 2nd Heineken win after that, but Ireland have had 2 very poor years since.

That is evidence of his ability as a winning coach in the short term, but not as a long term developer of talent.

Just imo of course.

Tox56

buck65 wrote: »

Sorry I though the question was about Kidney's judgement not about his recent trophy haul.

I didn't think it was a question about his trophy haul full stop.

CiaranMT

Luckycharm wrote: »

Mike Ross
Eoin Reddan
James Downey

None of these were at the level they are at now, and well down the pecking order at the time. AFAIK Downey wasn't even properly capped.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He won the heineken cup in his first year at Munster and the Grand Slam in his first year at Ireland. Both times taking succesful teams and pushing them over the edge.

Munster managed a 2nd Heineken win after that, but Ireland have had 2 very poor years since.

That is evidence of his ability as a winning coach in the short term, but not as a long term developer of talent.

Just imo of course.

Kidney became head coach in 1998/99?

Luckycharm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He won the heineken cup in his first year at Munster and the Grand Slam in his first year at Ireland. Both times taking succesful teams and pushing them over the edge.

Munster managed a 2nd Heineken win after that, but Ireland have had 2 very poor years since.

That is evidence of his ability as a winning coach in the short term, but not as a long term developer of talent.

Just imo of course.

NO he first coached Munster from around 1999 - 2002 during that time they lost 2 HEC finals the worst being against an average Saints team.

Regarding someone mentioning Bob Casey how many international caps has he won since he left Leinster? Did you ever actually see him playing for Leinster and remember his last international game against England back in 2000 where he was awful that was the reason he was not picked for Ireland for a long time!

Fireball07

I don't think it's fair at all to say Kidney is a bad judge of player because of Eoin Reddan and James Downey.

Reddan was behind Stringer, who was a brilliant scrum-half. And then we had TOL, who has major deficiencies but on his day is an excellent player and around the time of the grand slam, he was the best scrum-half in the country.

Downey's nothing special anyway and I think he wanted to leave.

As for Mike Ross... even when he came back to Ireland, aged 30+, it took him a season to get up to speed. He'd have likely been behind Hayes for a long time anyway. It was probably better for his own career that he went to England.

Luckycharm

CiaranMT wrote: »

None of these were at the level they are at now, and well down the pecking order at the time. AFAIK Downey wasn't even properly capped.

My point is that Kidney couldn't identify that they may had the talent to become an international player (not in downeys case) and they needed to go elsewhere to flourish.
Meanwhile some of the players who were ahead of them struggled with the basics of their position. Hayes, Buckley were very poor scrummagers.
Bar Stringer who were the other scrumhalves who were ahead of Reddan and how have they faired?
I would question on some players when it has been clearly shown on numerous occasions they are not up to it.
TOL was persisted with when my granny could see his basics are poor.
Earls in the centre
D'arcy persisted with even now
DOC ahead of players who are 1st choice for their province and performing in the HEC :P
Can you give me examples of other provinces releasing players who went on to be many capped internationals?

CiaranMT

Luckycharm wrote: »

My point is that Kidney couldn't identify that they may had the talent to become an international player (not in downeys case) and they needed to go elsewhere to flourish.
Meanwhile some of the players who were ahead of them struggled with the basics of their position. Hayes, Buckley were very poor scrummagers.
Bar Stringer who were the other scrumhalves who were ahead of Reddan and how have they faired?
I would question on some players when it has been clearly shown on numerous occasions they are not up to it.
TOL was persisted with when my granny could see his basics are poor.
Earls in the centre
D'arcy persisted with even now
DOC ahead of players who are 1st choice for their province and performing in the HEC :P
Can you give me examples of other provinces releasing players who went on to be many capped internationals?

They weren't going to get the opportunity at the time. That's the point.

CiaranMT

Luckycharm wrote: »

NO he first coached Munster from around 1999 - 2002 during that time they lost 2 HEC finals the worst being against an average Saints team.

Regarding someone mentioning Bob Casey how many international caps has he won since he left Leinster? Did you ever actually see him playing for Leinster and remember his last international game against England back in 2000 where he was awful that was the reason he was not picked for Ireland for a long time!

Funnily enough it was Kidney that capped Casey last, in 2009.

coddlesangers

Luckycharm wrote: »

My point is that Kidney couldn't identify that they may had the talent to become an international player (not in downeys case) and they needed to go elsewhere to flourish.
Meanwhile some of the players who were ahead of them struggled with the basics of their position. Hayes, Buckley were very poor scrummagers.
Bar Stringer who were the other scrumhalves who were ahead of Reddan and how have they faired?
I would question on some players when it has been clearly shown on numerous occasions they are not up to it.
TOL was persisted with when my granny could see his basics are poor.
Earls in the centre
D'arcy persisted with even now
DOC ahead of players who are 1st choice for their province and performing in the HEC :P
Can you give me examples of other provinces releasing players who went on to be many capped internationals?

Yes - Leinster famously released Jenno and Leo to Leicester.....now, who was the Leinster coach at the time....

Luckycharm

Fireball07 wrote: »

I don't think it's fair at all to say Kidney is a bad judge of player because of Eoin Reddan and James Downey.

Reddan was behind Stringer, who was a brilliant scrum-half. And then we had TOL, who has major deficiencies but on his day is an excellent player and around the time of the grand slam, he was the best scrum-half in the country.

Downey's nothing special anyway and I think he wanted to leave.

As for Mike Ross... even when he came back to Ireland, aged 30+, it took him a season to get up to speed. He'd have likely been behind Hayes for a long time anyway. It was probably better for his own career that he went to England.

Reddan was released by Munster in 2005 Mike prendergast was other scrumhalf rated above Reddan - how did he get on?

Luckycharm

CiaranMT wrote: »

Funnily enough it was Kidney that capped Casey last, in 2009.

You mean the big game against Canada in 2009 when alot of the Irish players were away with the Lions? Have a look at that team

profitius

Every coach sees things differently. For example some might value skills highest while others might value size, others strength etc. Its the same in any team sport. In soccer terms the English premiership sides prefer athletes while technical ability is rated higher in other areas ie Barcelona.

A few years back props that could scrummage were less valued than props who were good around the field. Thats why Ross never made it with Munster. Not things have turned around completely and valuable scrummagers are more highly valued.

As well as that Kidney wasn't afforded the luxury of 40+ man squads. There was room for only so many players.

Clegg

I think Kidney is more guilty of sticking with players that aren't good enough anymore or who are in terrible form. He stuck with O'Leary for too long and is now persisting with DOC even though he's clearly past it at this stage of his career.

Darcy isn't good enough either but I suppose Kidney still has to pick him because there are no other options. His continued selection of Wallace is also very strange. Wallace should either be a starter or not in the 22 at all.Theres no point in having him in the 22 when we already have Sexton and O'Gara. Wallace has probably been a better 12 than Darcy for the last few years but Kidney hasn't selected him. If he isn't going to select him then he just just cut Wallace completely and call up another, younger player that could benefit from the experience.

Luckycharm

profitius wrote: »

Every coach sees things differently. For example some might value skills highest while others might value size, others strength etc. Its the same in any team sport. In soccer terms the English premiership sides prefer athletes while technical ability is rated higher in other areas ie Barcelona.

A few years back props that could scrummage were less valued than props who were good around the field. Thats why Ross never made it with Munster. Not things have turned around completely and valuable scrummagers are more highly valued.

As well as that Kidney wasn't afforded the luxury of 40+ man squads. There was room for only so many players.

I don't think getting reamed at scrumtime was highly valued just happened Tighthead,scrumhalf and outhalf was a position of very little depth for a long time. Still any examples of any players similar to ones I have mentioned being released by other coaches?

D'arcy, Leo, DOC, Wallace and ROG have been great players for us but their time has passed and we need to bring in younger players to see if they are up to it. We have enough experience there now to blend in some younger players. If we can't do it now when can we- NZ away?

danthefan

profitius wrote: »

Every coach sees things differently. For example some might value skills highest while others might value size, others strength etc. Its the same in any team sport. In soccer terms the English premiership sides prefer athletes while technical ability is rated higher in other areas ie Barcelona.

A few years back props that could scrummage were less valued than props who were good around the field. Thats why Ross never made it with Munster. Not things have turned around completely and valuable scrummagers are more highly valued.

As well as that Kidney wasn't afforded the luxury of 40+ man squads. There was room for only so many players.

Is there any length you won't go to defend Kidney?

Not valuing scrummaging. What in the name of jebus are you on about? Name another team on the planet that doesn't/didn't value scrummaging props.

jm08

Luckycharm wrote: »

Reddan was released by Munster in 2005 Mike prendergast was other scrumhalf rated above Reddan - how did he get on?

Gaffney was the Munster coach then. In a recent interview, Reddan said that Gaffney had told him around Christmas time that he'd have to wait for a few more months before he could confirm if there was going to be another contract for him. It just happened then that Wasps contacted him and offered him a job, so he took it in the heat of the moment. Says he regrets not waiting now.

Only Munster player up to fairly recently not brought in/first capped by Kidney is Denis Leamy. Even Felix Jones was brought to Munster by him. Alan Gaffney much preffered rather poor southern hemisphere journeymen when he was the Munster coach.

Kidney signed Jim Williams (who was way out of favour in Australia and 32 years old at the time) and Rua Tipoki. Both excellent signings.

Trevor Brennan did exceptionally well after being released from Leinster (not too sure who was the coach then).

danthefan

jm08 wrote: »

Gaffney was the Munster coach then. In a recent interview, Reddan said that Gaffney had told him around Christmas time that he'd have to wait for a few more months before he could confirm if there was going to be another contract for him. It just happened then that Wasps contacted him and offered him a job, so he took it in the heat of the moment. Says he regrets not waiting now.

Only Munster player up to fairly recently not brought in/first capped by Kidney is Denis Leamy. Even Felix Jones was brought to Munster by him. Alan Gaffney much preffered rather poor southern hemisphere journeymen when he was the Munster coach.

Kidney signed Jim Williams (who was way out of favour in Australia and 32 years old at the time) and Rua Tipoki. Both excellent signings.

Trevor Brennan did exceptionally well after being released from Leinster (not too sure who was the coach then).

Link please.

irishbucsfan

I've heard Don Reddan speaking about Kidney. He'd put some if the anti-Kidneyites here to shame tbh

profitius

danthefan wrote: »

Is there any length you won't go to defend Kidney?

I'm not defending Kidney. The squad he picked is a bit of a joke and the world cup was another failure. I'm taking a wait and see approach to it.

danthefan wrote:

Not valuing scrummaging. What in the name of jebus are you on about? Name another team on the planet that doesn't/didn't value scrummaging props.

Not valuing them as much as they do now. Its not that hard to understand.

jm08

danthefan wrote: »

Link please.

Sorry. I haven't got the time to look for it now. If you want to search, it was a fairly extensive interview in one of the 3 main Irish papers when Reddan would have been going back to Limerick to play in Thomond Park in the last year or so.

CatFromHue

jm08 wrote: »

Sorry. I haven't got the time to look for it now. If you want to search, it was a fairly extensive interview in one of the 3 main Irish papers when Reddan would have been going back to Limerick to play in Thomond Park in the last year or so.

Seemingly Reddan's time at Munster didn't overlap with Kidney.

---

It may be his first time working with Declan Kidney, but Wasps scrum-half Reddan knows the two-time Heineken Cup-winning coach has the experience to instill Ireland

"The first time I was ever coached by Deccie was now. When I was with Munster it was Gaffer (Alan Gaffney)."

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/autumn-internationals/eoin-goal-1528868.html

danthefan

profitius wrote: »

I'm not defending Kidney. The squad he picked is a bit of a joke and the world cup was another failure. I'm taking a wait and see approach to it.



Not valuing them as much as they do now. Its not that hard to understand.

Again, what are you on about? When was scrummaging not valued and give one example other than Kidney picking his old buddy Buckley.

Cpt_Blackbeard

jm08 wrote: »

Sorry. I haven't got the time to look for it now. If you want to search, it was a fairly extensive interview in one of the 3 main Irish papers when Reddan would have been going back to Limerick to play in Thomond Park in the last year or so.

I remember the same article. It was exactly as you explained it.

profitius

danthefan wrote: »

Again, what are you on about? When was scrummaging not valued and give one example other than Kidney picking his old buddy Buckley.

Not valued AS MUCH. Got it now?

molloyjh

profitius wrote: »

I'm taking a wait and see approach to it.

How long are you prepared to wait? At the start of every campaign people say this. Let's not judge the guy until they play. They have played. And have been for years. When is it ok to actually take a stance?

CIARAN_BOYLE

molloyjh wrote: »

How long are you prepared to wait? At the start of every campaign people say this. Let's not judge the guy until they play. They have played. And have been for years. When is it ok to actually take a stance?

I'm going to do what I do before and after every campaign don't moan about the Head Coach get fully behind the team and management and if the campaign goes south I will curse blue murder about Kidney till just before Ireland set off on a tour of NZ when I will get fully behind Kidney the coaches and the team.

Tox56

Personally, I'm going to just wait and see what Kidney does. He was clearly trolling with his squad announcement, so I'm hoping the matchday 22 will be SOME improvement on previous years. By the end of the 6 Nations I think we should judge.

durkadurka

The thing about kidney is it seems to take him ages to see what everyone else can see.

Slow to see the decline of TOL, the inadequacies of Buckley, the decline of Hayes, the rise of o Brien and Ross. Now he appears slow to see the rise of POM and the ulster boys. I suspect he'll persist with earls at 13 even though everyone can see its not a runner and it will only become clear to hi when earls has a howler.
Remember how TOL was still in pole position for the world cup until the absolute howler against England?

danthefan

profitius wrote: »

Not valued AS MUCH. Got it now?

You can post in bold and big letters etc all you want but you still haven't told me when scrummaging wasn't valued as much and who didn't value it, other than Kidney and his jokeshop selections in 2010.

Cpt_Blackbeard

danthefan wrote: »

You can post in bold and big letters etc all you want but you still haven't told me when scrummaging wasn't valued as much and who didn't value it, other than Kidney and his jokeshop selections in 2010.

Scrummaging technique was not seen as the be all and end all of props. The trend was towards man mountains who could count on their natural size and strength to overpower their opposite man and were handy around the field. Because of this, Hayman was widely considered the best TH in the world.

However, the emphasis in the scrum has changed. The length of the hit has been shortened so, these giants with little in the way of technique are now being bested by smaller smarter props. The John Hayes', Carl Haymans and Andrew Sheridans are on the way out and technical props like Adam Jones, BJ Botha etc. are back in vogue.

GerM

danthefan wrote: »

profitius wrote: »

Not valued AS MUCH. Got it now?

You can post in bold and big letters etc all you want but you still haven't told me when scrummaging wasn't valued as much and who didn't value it, other than Kidney and his jokeshop selections in 2010.

In fairness, pre 2007, when the engagement laws were altered, the scrum was far less influential than it is now. Props that were mobile and had a high work rate were the preference. Watch the difference between Hayes holding the scrum in 2006 against Biarritz for Stringer's try and Biarritz in 2010 when he was absolutely beasted which was a major factor in losing the game.

danthefan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Scrummaging technique was not seen as the be all and end all of props. The trend was towards man mountains who could count on their natural size and strength to overpower their opposite man and were handy around the field. Because of this, Hayman was widely considered the best TH in the world.

However, the emphasis in the scrum has changed. The length of the hit has been shortened so, these giants with little in the way of technique are now being bested by smaller smarter props. The John Hayes', Carl Haymans and Andrew Sheridans are on the way out and technical props like Adam Jones, BJ Botha etc. are back in vogue.

Two guys who've had long careers spanning this supposed time when massive props were the order of the day. Adam Jones is about 20st or so by the way, around the same weight as Hayes.

GerM wrote: »

In fairness, pre 2007, when the engagement laws were altered, the scrum was far less influential than it is now. Props that were mobile and had a high work rate were the preference. Watch the difference between Hayes holding the scrum in 2006 against Biarritz for Stringer's try and Biarritz in 2010 when he was absolutely beasted which was a major factor in losing the game.

Then you might have understood Buckley being involved pre 2007, which he wasn't at all. And Hayes was well past it in 2010 to be fair. And was he scrummaging against the same prop in 2006 and 2010?

Benny Cake

Very harsh to criticise Kidney for releasing Reddan & Ross. At the time it was the right move for both players to move on and further their careers. If Ruddock comes to Munster during the off season & goes on to start for Ireland, does that automatically make Schmidt a bad judge of a players ability?

[Jackass]

Kidney is a spoofer. Simple as that.

The only job he had where he needed to build a team, Leinster, was a complete and utter disastor and players actually left it was such a joke.

He sticks to people he knows who have done the job before, because he hasn't a clue how to figure who else can do the job and whether they're good or not.

He's a maths teacher who's gone in completely over his head, and it would actually make a great sit com.

CiaranMT

[Jackass] wrote: »

Kidney is a spoofer. Simple as that.

The only job he had where he needed to build a team, Leinster, was a complete and utter disastor and players actually left it was such a joke.

He sticks to people he knows who have done the job before, because he hasn't a clue how to figure who else can do the job and whether they're good or not.

He's a maths teacher who's gone in completely over his head, and it would actually make a great sit com.

Not sure if subtle troll...

Declan's learned a lot from the English Coaches

TomsOnTheRoof

also, snipping this from the other thread, hopefully the poster will answer here

TomsOnTheRoof wrote:

Saying it is a pathetic record for an international winger is not being snide, it is merely stating a fact. A wingers main priority is to score tries and a strike rate of one in eleven is awful no matter how you try and gloss it. However the constant "Uncle Deccie does it again" and comments of that ilk are indeed both childish and ungrateful.

If he scored 6 tries in his first game, and none for his next 30 would you consider a player a good winger?

Now, lets consider for a second here our record under Kidney. See the question above, look at it in terms of wins, appearances (scraping past Italy by the skin of your ballsack isn't a win in my books), gameplans, tactics, morale, development, momentum etc...

Fitzgerald might not score all the tries in the world, but he does everything else so right.

Kidney has contributed positively to almost none of the characteristics of a good coaching regime in the past 3 seasons. In fact, I'd go so far as to say we've gone backwards with him steering the ship.

It's not Kidney bashing, it's constructive analysis. Confuse the two in your own time, but don't insult us on here that are able to discuss objectively the team that we follow and track every footstep of.

Amazotheamazing

Deleted User wrote: »

Fitzgerald might not score all the tries in the world, but he does everything else so right.

Doe it matter? At Int level, after 24 tests, surely he has to start producing the end product, which for a winger is tries?

At Int level
Bowe 19/47
Earls 11/26
Fitz 2/24
Trimble 9/41

At club level

Bowe 65/155
Earls 21/65
Fitz 21/84
Trimble 36/119

Fitz clearly struggles to continue scoring tries at a higher level. His try scoring drops off a cliff at Int whereas it's only slightly worse than the others at club level (though, he's playing in a much better team than the others, so should he be scoring more as he will have more chances or less because there's others who can score?)

Earls try scoring is very impressive considering he's been shifted all over and is playing in a jokeshop backline with Munster.