Ireland stand up and Vatican Embassy

fisgon

Anyone see these guys on the RTE news today? They are called Ireland stand up, they're campaigning to have the Vatican Embassy reopened. I had a quick look at their website (I won't provide a link, just google them if you are masochistic enough), they are as you would expect, a lay Catholic group in full indignant mode, trying to make out that closing our Vatican embassy is a big blow to this country, or something.

One interesting thing I found on their home page, apparently we have a royal family now. The campaign is dedicated to "Our lady of Knock, Queen of Ireland". Must have missed her coronation. If she's our queen, who's the king? David Quinn? Ronan Mullen? Shiver...

Anyway, this to me is the beginning of a mini culture war, such as they have had in the US for years now. This group seems to have some sway, they had a load of TDs and ministers at their meeting, who seem to be trying not to piss them off, their afraid of a backlash by the conservative religious lobby. Fianna fail has jumped on to their bandwagon. They're lobbying hard. To me it's clear they are one of those groups that would happily drag us back to theocratic lunacy. I also object to their title, as if they are speaking for the whole country, the appropriation of Irishness for their slavish little catholic agenda.

I suggest that anyone disturbed by this group and their agenda email Lucinda Creighton at lucinda.creighton@taoiseach.ie, she is the minister in charge of this particular decision to close the embassy or to ultimately reopen it. I am about to do so. It's important to let those in power know that the lobby group that they so respectfully met with today do not speak for all the people of this country, many of whom were delighted to see the vatican embassy (whose work can easily be done by the Irish embassy to Italy, also in Rome) being closed.

The Mad Hatter

Ireland stand up? Sounds comical!

Galvasean

fisgon wrote: »

"Our lady of Knock, Queen of Ireland". Must have missed her coronation.

Coronation Mary? This is bad comedy...

Cedrus

No address or landline given, No named sponsors or committee.
Would you buy a used car from an outfit as 'Shy' as this?
Stand up indeed?

TheChizler

Anyone catch the flawless statistical analysis performed on the front page of The Examiner the other day? Apparently 93% of the population oppose the decision to close the embassy, based on the views of 102 letters sent to Eamon Gilmore.

To me and I'm sure a lot of others, it was the sensible thing to do. The embassy hardly protected the interests of the state, and provided no economic relations, things diplomatic missions are normally designed to do. The closure wasn't something to get hysterically supportive of, it just made sense. You wouldn't expect an emotive response in support of it, unlike the response when the Taoiseach made his momentous and emotional speech in July.

However you would be justified in expecting some people to be irrational, upset and motivated to write letters condemning the decision.

It is very important that the media and state know the opinion of the masses, and not just the emotionally motivated.

Penn

Just emailed there. Closing the Embassy does not impinge on anyone's ability to practice or follow their religion, and I seriously doubt any of these people would be protesting if Ireland closed any other Embassy. And these people don't represent a majority of anything. I'd say the majority of people of Ireland couldn't give two flying f*cks.

Funny how, when the Embassy closed, life just seemed to... go on as per usual. There weren't people crying in the streets. There weren't massive public strikes. Nobody seemed to care.

Beruthiel

Dropped an e-mail off to Lucinda.

CiaranMT

43 likes on Facebook... They're going places.

Dades

CiaranMT wrote: »

43 likes on Facebook... They're going places.

I suspect there's a generational issue there. :pac:

When it comes down to it, once people hear the cost of reopening an embassy they won't get too much support from Joe Taxpayer.

who the fug

Dades wrote: »

I suspect there's a generational issue there. :pac:

When it comes down to it, once people hear the cost of reopening an embassy they won't get too much support from Joe Taxpayer.

What cost, our man in Rome take off his Italy hat and puts his Vatican hat on


Just make sure he doesn't claim two salaries

Ash.J.Williams

One of them suggested we shut down one of our African embassies instead...f** off

Corinthian

who the fug wrote: »

What cost, our man in Rome take off his Italy hat and puts his Vatican hat on

I believe the vatican's rules don't allow that.

Couldn't find a reference for that after a quick look, but I'm sure I heard it somewhere.

magicbastarder

i wanted to apply to the vatican for a working holiday visa. with the embassy gone, it makes it so much harder to do so.

Cedrus

Corinthian wrote: »

I believe the vatican's rules don't allow that.

Couldn't find a reference for that after a quick look, but I'm sure I heard it somewhere.

Quote from Paddy Agnew, The Irish Times - Friday, November 4, 2011.
"However, the point about the dual missions in Rome (and many other countries have two embassies here) is that they owe their existence to the Holy See’s desire to separate itself from the Italian state. It is the Holy See that refuses to accept an ambassador who is working out of the same building as the ambassador to Italy.
To some extent, the question goes back to first World War days when there was only one national embassy in Rome. When both Austria and Germany, then at war with Italy, withdrew their diplomatic representation, the Holy See found itself without German or Austrian interlocutors. In its finely tuned Jesuitical thinking, the Holy See objected to ambassadors being withdrawn because, while Italy might have been at war with Austria and Germany, the Holy See was not.
Countries which, whether through political choice or financial constraint, opt not to have a separate Vatican embassy usually end up “tagging on” Holy See responsibilities to their ambassador in a neighbouring country. The Holy See takes a dim view of this practice and the ambassador in question is very much a second-class citizen on the Vatican diplomatic circuit."

Coriolanus

So basically, we need a embassy in the Vat just in case we ever declare war on Italy.
Sounds legit.

DarkJager

They must be big fans of this cult that practices child molestation. Maybe these people should be rounded up and euthanised?

irishh_bob

fisgon wrote: »

Anyone see these guys on the RTE news today? They are called Ireland stand up, they're campaigning to have the Vatican Embassy reopened. I had a quick look at their website (I won't provide a link, just google them if you are masochistic enough), they are as you would expect, a lay Catholic group in full indignant mode, trying to make out that closing our Vatican embassy is a big blow to this country, or something.

One interesting thing I found on their home page, apparently we have a royal family now. The campaign is dedicated to "Our lady of Knock, Queen of Ireland". Must have missed her coronation. If she's our queen, who's the king? David Quinn? Ronan Mullen? Shiver...

Anyway, this to me is the beginning of a mini culture war, such as they have had in the US for years now. This group seems to have some sway, they had a load of TDs and ministers at their meeting, who seem to be trying not to piss them off, their afraid of a backlash by the conservative religious lobby. Fianna fail has jumped on to their bandwagon. They're lobbying hard. To me it's clear they are one of those groups that would happily drag us back to theocratic lunacy. I also object to their title, as if they are speaking for the whole country, the appropriation of Irishness for their slavish little catholic agenda.

I suggest that anyone disturbed by this group and their agenda email Lucinda Creighton at lucinda.creighton@taoiseach.ie, she is the minister in charge of this particular decision to close the embassy or to ultimately reopen it. I am about to do so. It's important to let those in power know that the lobby group that they so respectfully met with today do not speak for all the people of this country, many of whom were delighted to see the vatican embassy (whose work can easily be done by the Irish embassy to Italy, also in Rome) being closed.

this campaign makes the hunt ward union issue look widespread , it might get a fair bit of media attention but is utterly irrelevant to nine out of ten people

robindch

^^^ DarkJager -- cool it, please.

Penn

From their website:

To reinstate our Vatican Embassy so the Irish People, 87% (3.65million) Roman Catholic, continue to benefit from the Embassy’s historic, diplomatic presence. (More info)

What benefits? I mean, you click on More Info and it brings you to a page where you can send a postcard to the Taoiseach. But what benefits are there, that 87% of the country seemingly care about?

Delirium

Penn wrote: »

From their website:

What benefits? I mean, you click on More Info and it brings you to a page where you can send a postcard to the Taoiseach. But what benefits are there, that 87% of the country seemingly care about?

It's not that 87% care about the embassy. This group is presuming to speak on behalf of all the 87%

Corkfeen

Penn wrote: »

From their website:



What benefits? I mean, you click on More Info and it brings you to a page where you can send a postcard to the Taoiseach. But what benefits are there, that 87% of the country seemingly care about?

I think that it lets us skip the queue in purgatory. And all irish citizens get access to the bar in heaven for free. Shots with Jesus! But in terms of real benefits, there are none. :pac:

Cedrus

Nevore wrote: »

So basically, we need a embassy in the Vat just in case we ever declare war on Italy.
Sounds legit.

Except that there isn't any room in the Vatican, so all 'local' embassies have to be in Italy anyway, even if we've already got one in Italy.

Penn

koth wrote: »

It's not that 87% care about the embassy. This group is presuming to speak on behalf of all the 87%

Exactly what I mean. If they're speaking for the 87%, what benefits do they think those 87% care about? Because I reckon 87% of the 87% don't give a sh*t about the Embassy closing

Galvasean

Nevore wrote: »

So basically, we need a embassy in the Vat just in case we ever declare war on Italy.
Sounds legit.

The wounds inflicted by Toto Schillachi still run deep for some...

sensibleken

emailed her just now. bloody crackpots!

Mistress 69

The campaign to re open the embassy to The Vatican was inevitable. While lots of people on this island dont really have any time for religon, there are still quite a few who do. As it is a democratic right for Atheist Ireland to lobby for a secular society, that same right also applies to Ireland Stand up to lobby their case.

sensibleken

Mistress 69 wrote: »

The campaign to re open the embassy to The Vatican was inevitable. While lots of people on this island dont really have any time for religon, there are still quite a few who do. As it is a democratic right for Atheist Ireland to lobby for a secular society, that same right also applies to Ireland Stand up to lobby their case.

Nobodys saying they havent got the right to lobby for it. Its just arguing that listening to them would be wrong

Galvasean

Mistress 69 wrote: »

The campaign to re open the embassy to The Vatican was inevitable. While lots of people on this island dont really have any time for religon, there are still quite a few who do. As it is a democratic right for Atheist Ireland to lobby for a secular society, that same right also applies to Ireland Stand up to lobby their case.

And others have the right to point out how flawed a campaign it is, particularly it's blatant (by the look of it very deliberate) skewing of statistics to try and represent a large majority when in fact they appear to be quite a small minority.

Mistress 69

sensibleken wrote: »

Nobodys saying they havent got the right to lobby for it. Its just arguing that listening to them would be wrong

Galvasean wrote: »

And others have the right to point out how flawed a campaign it is, particularly it's blatant (by the look of it very deliberate) skewing of statistics to try and represent a large majority when in fact they appear to be quite a small minority.

Agreed , I was only pointing out that it was inevitable. As a recent thread discussed '' Its in the neurons''.

fisgon

Mistress 69 wrote: »

The campaign to re open the embassy to The Vatican was inevitable. While lots of people on this island dont really have any time for religon, there are still quite a few who do. As it is a democratic right for Atheist Ireland to lobby for a secular society, that same right also applies to Ireland Stand up to lobby their case.

I agree that they have a right to lobby for whatever they want. Just as we who oppose them should make that opposition known.

One of my big objections to them may sound petty, but it's part of a wider issue. They call themselves Ireland Stand Up. They are using the name of our country, as if they are speaking for this island. As if they are the real spokespersons for the man in the street. The implication is that if you don't support them, you're not really Irish, in the proper sense. It's an appropriation of nationality that American religious conservatives do all the time, equating their beliefs with 'the nation', and hinting that only real Americans support them, just as only real Irish people support these worshippers of "The Queen of Ireland".

Galvasean

fisgon wrote: »

One of my big objections to them may sound petty, but it's part of a wider issue. They call themselves Ireland Stand Up. They are using the name of our country, as if they are speaking for this island. As if they are the real spokespersons for the man in the street. The implication is that if you don't support them, you're not really Irish, in the proper sense. It's an appropriation of nationality that American religious conservatives do all the time, equating their beliefs with 'the nation', and hinting that only real Americans support them, just as only real Irish people support these worshippers of "The Queen of Ireland".

Glasgow Celtic have been milking this cow for generations.

gawker

Emailed there.

Hi Lucina,

I would like to write to you briefly regarding the current campaign to re-open an Irish embassy to the Vatican (Ireland Stand Up).

Having looking into this group and their stance, it is quite clear they do not represent Irish people in general. The fact they have dedicated this campaign to "Our Lady of Knock, Queen of Ireland" illustrates where their rationale lies. The decision to shut down the embassy makes practical and financial sense. Any imagery associated with an Irish embassy to the Vatican shutting is secondary, but certainly not unwarranted. The Vatican has, needless to say, burnt many a bridge with the Irish state and deserves no further lip service from us. Any true Republic stands up for its people, not with a state that has acted against them on numerous occasions.

I am also wary of the growing whisperings amongst the hardline Catholics in Ireland linking this diplomatic decision with their right to religious practice and freedom. Religious freedom is in no way infringed upon by the closing of an embassy. Ireland has laudable protection for one's freedom of religion and as such, claiming this is an attack on religion is just plain fear-mongering.

I applaud this government on their actions regarding the embassy and hope that you can continue to take a rational and fair approach to the issue.

Best regards,
xxxxxxx

Galvasean

^^ very well written, up until the xxxxxxxx.

B-

gawker

Galvasean wrote: »

^^ very well written, up until the xxxxxxxx.

B-

Just trying to win her over a bit more. Maybe XOXO might have worked better?

sensibleken

gawker wrote: »

Just trying to win her over a bit more. Maybe XOXO might have worked better?

Yours sensually

Galvasean

So, despite Prime Time news coverage they only have 44 people to their cause.
I'd hazard a guess their site got more traffic from people searching for them (to see what the fuss was about) based on this thread than actual supporters.

What was Lucina's email address again?

gawker

All joking aside, Creighton has backed the campaign (and, presumable, our new Queen):

JUNIOR Foreign Affairs Minister Lucinda Creighton has backed a campaign to re-open the Irish embassy in the Vatican.
Ms Creighton was among dozens of TDs and senators from across parties who met yesterday with campaigners applying pressure on the Government to re-open the embassy in the Holy See.

They included Labour parliamentary members despite the fact it was their leader, Tánaiste and Foreign Affairs Minister Eamon Gilmore, who recommended closing the embassy.

The group, Ireland Stand Up, has sent thousands of postcards to the Government in its bid to overturn the closure. Ms Creighton met with the group in Dublin and later pledged to be at the forefront of efforts to re-open the embassy.

"I think it’s important that the Government is aware that there’s a very strong, and important and sizeable amount of people who are disappointed with the decision and want to see it overturned and who clearly aren’t happy.

"I’m very much committed to ensuring that at a point in the future when we’re in a position to do it, that we will re-open our embassy to the Holy See," said Ms Creighton.


Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/creighton-backs-bid-to-re-open-vatican-embassy-180707.html#ixzz1jupkS0rW

Mark Hamill

Galvasean wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess their site got more traffic from people searching for them (to see what the fuss was about) based on this thread than actual supporters.

Wont stop them declaring the number of hits to their site as if its a meaningful representation of how much support they have.

Mark Hamill

gawker wrote: »

All joking aside, Creighton has backed the campaign (and, presumable, our new Queen):

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/creighton-backs-bid-to-re-open-vatican-embassy-180707.html#ixzz1jupkS0rW

I find this quote to be very interesting:

Ms Creighton said a consular presence in the Vatican was important for Ireland.

"It’s very important, not just for Catholics in Ireland, but for the Department of Foreign Affairs strategy.

"Our foreign policy agenda is at one with the Vatican. When it comes to the priorities for us, human rights, hunger, all of these freedoms that we promote all over the world, particularly in Africa, we do it hand in hand, side by side with the Vatican.

"For that reason, from a strictly foreign affairs perspective, I think it would be very desirable in the future to step up our relations with the Vatican again. Now is obviously not going to be possible, but certainly in due course... At that point, I’ll certainly be one of the loud voices calling for it to happen," she said.

Is she really saying that Irelands foreign affairs agenda is weakened by not having a stronger relationship with the Vatican? That we cant have serious foreign policies in relation to human rights (eg the right to freedom of religion or the right for children to be abused by priests) without Vatican support?

Ellis Dee

Even by the standards of that <snip> Creighton, who gives all blondes a bad name, this is totally stupid. I don't recall any of them standing up when the industrial schools gulag was in full operation or that self-appointed dictator <snip> McQuad was in effect running the country.:rolleyes:

The Vatican has still not given the Murphy Commission the documents it requested in its efforts to arrive at something like a clear picture of the full extent of sex abuse of children by clergy of the kiddy-fiddler church and of the steps taken by the hierarchy here and their puppet-masters in Rome to cover things up.:mad:

The Papal <snip> in the Phoenix Park has treated Ireland like a banana republic and he and his masters have made it quite clear how deep their contempt for our judicial authorities and secular law are.:mad:

Not only should we make it clear that we will never reopen an embassy to that comic-opera statelet that Mussolini created, we should also sever diplomatic relations with it. There is nothing to prevent the Irish clergy being in contact with their masters in Rome, but they must be subject to our laws and not able to abuse diplomatic channels to cover up crimes.:)

gawker

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I find this quote to be very interesting:


Is she really saying that Irelands foreign affairs agenda is weakened by not having a stronger relationship with the Vatican? That we cant have serious foreign policies in relation to human rights (eg the right to freedom of religion or the right for children to be abused by priests) without Vatican support?

Perhaps the most worrying sentence is:
"Our foreign policy agenda is at one with the Vatican."

Really?

Do we actively oppose to same sex marriage in the USA? Do we actively oppose to policies that include contraception in Africa? Do we oppose to laws which are attempting to decriminalize homosexuality in some African nations? I don't think our foreign policy agenda is one with them at all, thankfully. Lucinda might be just playing to the conservative segment of Ireland she seems so popular with on this one...

Dades

Ellis Dee, tone down the vitrol please. Or at least stop referring to everyone as sex offenders.

fitz0

Ireland Stand Up indeed! Stop kowtowing to the clergy and stand up for the victims of clerical abuse, physical, mental and sexual. That's what Ireland needs to stand up for.

Sarky

sensibleken wrote: »

Yours sensually

If you're going to finish with that, you really have to start with "Dear Baby"

Ash.J.Williams

The lobbyists remind me of the people who treated the families of abuse victims in Ferns like dirt for suggesting the priests were up to no good.

Mistress 69

fisgon wrote: »

I agree that they have a right to lobby for whatever they want. Just as we who oppose them should make that opposition known.

One of my big objections to them may sound petty, but it's part of a wider issue. They call themselves Ireland Stand Up. They are using the name of our country, as if they are speaking for this island. As if they are the real spokespersons for the man in the street. The implication is that if you don't support them, you're not really Irish, in the proper sense. It's an appropriation of nationality that American religious conservatives do all the time, equating their beliefs with 'the nation', and hinting that only real Americans support them, just as only real Irish people support these worshippers of "The Queen of Ireland".

Its not a petty objection, and the implications arising from using Ireland in the name of their organisation are as you stated. It remains to be seen how much support they get and will be intersting to see if they acheive their goal. On the other hand Ireland is used in the name of quite a few groups, organisations etc

Ellis Dee

Dades wrote: »

Ellis Dee, tone down the vitrol please. Or at least stop referring to everyone as sex offenders.

I have not referred to everyone as sex offenders, and wonder how you reached that conclusion. :rolleyes::rolleyes: I only mentioned that some clergy of the kiddy-fiddler church had been engaged in this activity, which many people disapprove of, and my reference to the late unlamented Archbishop is based on allegations in John Cooney's biography of him, which I would recommend.

I always refer to the Papal Nuntio as the Papal Nonce, which I believe is a legitimate way of satirising such a ridiculous institution. It's a pity you shoose to misinterpret it as vitriol, but that is your prerogative. Personally, I believe the kiddy-fidler church and its minions deserve all the criticism they can get, and this latest stunt by Crichton et al merely shows that they are far from dead and gone and the empire will strike back if we ever give them a chance. :rolleyes:

robindch

Ellis Dee wrote: »

I have not referred to everyone as sex offenders, and wonder how you reached that conclusion [...] I only mentioned that some clergy of the kiddy-fiddler church had been engaged in this activity,

Have a read of the underlined bit in the above.

Any more vitriol and you'll be taking a holiday.

Galvasean

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Wont stop them declaring the number of hits to their site as if its a meaningful representation of how much support they have.

The BNP like to use website hits as an indicator of popularity. Sadly, google cant tell what % of hits are morbid curiosity.

CiaranMT

Galvasean wrote: »

The BNP like to use website hits as an indicator of popularity. Sadly, google cant tell what % of hits are morbid curiosity.

Reminds me of the RCC and their use of baptismal registers when referencing its adherents...

ShooterSF

Shame you have to "like" a group to comment on it's facebook. Worse still I am friends with one of their followers!