Let's put Motor Tax on Fuel. Noonan, "Nah"

MugMugs

Link here.

It would screw me to the extent of having to drive North every weekend to fill up but for that reason alone and the saving I'd make on Motor Tax as a result, I kind of dig the idea !

For those on the move

A GOVERNMENT BACKBENCHER has called on the government to examine the idea of scrapping motor tax – replacing it by levying extra taxes on fuel.
The proposal, from Wicklow TD Billy Timmins of Fine Gael, would reduce the administrative workload at motor tax offices and ensure that those who make the most use of Ireland’s roads would be the ones paying the most for doing so.
“This is something we shouldn’t exclude – we should keep an open mind,” Timmins told TheJournal.ie. “It would comply with the ‘user pays’ principle, and would also mean that people coming into the country – such as tourists or freight – would have to make a contribution.”
Timmins added that the proposal would mean it would be impossible to clamp down on evading motor tax, which is thought to cost the state millions each year, by ensuring that every motorist would contribute to the upkeep of the roads.
Finance minister Michael Noonan has spurned the idea, arguing that it would add around 20c per litre to the cost of motor fuel – which would have major impact on the rate of inflation and Ireland’s economic competitiveness.
Responding to a parliamentary question from Timmins, Noonan said high-mileage vehicles like public service vehicles and buses would be disproportionately hit, as would people who have to commute longer distances for work.
Timmins argued that a similar effect existed in the current system – where occasional motorists, such as older people, paid a disproportionate amount for motor tax for the benefit they received.
“It’s something we should have an open mind on – obviously we have to balance every pound, but we have to be open to ideas.”
‘Reasonable merit’

Conor Faughnan of AA Ireland said the suggestion had “reasonable merit” but said the behaviour of governments in the last four years meant it would no longer be a viable option.
Excise duties on motor fuel had been raised in each of the last five budgets, he said, adding between 21c and 22c to the price of a litre – pushing the price of petrol beyond a level where the public could accept any further increases.
“We would also push the cost of Irish fuel way above the cost of fuel in the UK, and that would have a significant impact in terms of border traffic,” Faughnan added.
“An immediate and obvious effect is also that it would fall much harder on rural citizens… [but] it maybe isn’t insurmountable, and maybe problems would be worked out.”
Faughnan added that AA Ireland had backed a similar proposal several years ago, where it proposed scrapping all tolls on Irish roads and instead replacing them with a 2c levy on every litre of petrol and diesel.
That would also no longer be feasible given the extra taxes that had been levied at the petrol pumps in the meantime, he said.

Riskymove

MugMugs wrote: »

It would screw me to the extent of having to drive North every weekend to fill up but for that reason alone and the saving I'd make on Motor Tax as a result, I kind of dig the idea !

this is something discussed (and generally supported) on this forum, particularly since the motor tax CO2 changes, carbon tax etc.

Chris_Heilong

The only good thing here would be that I could actually buy a 2.5l petrol and not be penalized.

corktina

i don't support it at all, because it would only be a matter of time before they found a way to re-introduce Motor Tax under a differerent name and we'd be paying twice.

What are people like, lining themselves up to pay more?:rolleyes:

Tails142

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

The only good thing here would be that I could actually buy a 2.5l petrol and not be penalized.

I think it's a great idea and should be phased in, by adding a cent to petrol and reducing motor tax by 5 percent each year, our whatever is required.

the problem is that our government is so backwards that they are raising levies on fuel AND increasing motor tax so there's little room to bring in this increase without rising the price of petrol and diesel too high

challengemaster

Tails142 wrote: »

I think it's a great idea and should be phased in, by adding a cent to petrol and reducing motor tax by 5 percent each year, our whatever is required.

the problem is that our government is so backwards that they are raising levies on fuel AND increasing motor tax so there's little room to bring in this increase without rising the price of petrol and diesel too high

It's already too fecking high

GavRedKing

Its a good idea in theory but the way this and previous gobernments have approached motoring, you can imagine petrol and diesel would be nearly double its current price for them to make any money off the scheme.

If they we're to negate motor tax and increrase the price of fuel, it would be goof for the motorist but only if it was introduced correctly.

si_guru

challengemaster wrote: »

It's already too fecking high

You've not been in mainland Europe lately have you?

But I agree on one point.. if you can add 20C now and scrap motor tax... but be sure in ten years that motor tax would be introducedd as "Vehicle levy"... but don't worry lads it's just 1%.... for now.

challengemaster

si_guru wrote: »

You've not been in mainland Europe lately have you?

You've not been in the US lately, have you?

Just because the price is higher elsewhere, that doesn't mean it's OK here.

Victor

corktina wrote: »

i don't support it at all, because it would only be a matter of time before they found a way to re-introduce Motor Tax under a differerent name and we'd be paying twice.

What are people like, lining themselves up to pay more?:rolleyes:

I agree, hauliers are already refuelling their trucks in **Belgium** (I'm not sure why its only about 3-4c cheaper), imagine what it would be like if fuel was suddenly 20c/L more expensive - huge numbers would be refuelling up north or even in Wales, people laundering fuel making a fortune and losing the exchequer money meaning taxes would have to be raised on other things.

Vertakill

corktina wrote: »

i don't support it at all, because it would only be a matter of time before they found a way to re-introduce Motor Tax under a differerent name and we'd be paying twice.

What are people like, lining themselves up to pay more?:rolleyes:

If that was everybody's line of thinking... nobody would bother voting or bother lobbying for anything.

Very defeatist attitude.

You're basically saying; "Yeah, I know it's bad but fukkít, lets just bend over and take it because if we kick up a fuss it could get worse..".

"Faughnan added that AA Ireland had backed a similar proposal several years ago, where it proposed scrapping all tolls on Irish roads and instead replacing them with a 2c levy on every litre of petrol and diesel.
That would also no longer be feasible given the extra taxes that had been levied at the petrol pumps in the meantime, he said."


.......... whatever about motor tax on fuel why should the entire population be hit for toll roads to the tune of 2c/litre?

Victor

challengemaster wrote: »

You've not been in the US lately, have you?

Just because the price is higher elsewhere, that doesn't mean it's OK here.

You realise that in the USA you could be paying US$1,000 a year in registration charges?

Daved_XB

I think an issue that they would have bringing it in is they would have to refund any tax people had left on the car...

For example I pay 1600 odd on my Range Rover, now if I was only 1 or 2 months into that tax & they then scrapped the car tax & up'd the price of go go juice to cover it... then I'd want my car tax back

si_guru

challengemaster wrote: »

You've not been in the US lately, have you?

I have actually, and I will be in Orlando in 3 weeks - shall I bring you some fags back? .. or petrol?

Solair

The only problem that I would see with this is that the tax would essentially be regressive in some respects.

If you consider that Ireland has had what could only be described as completely insane planning laws, many people now live in places that are only accessible by car.

So, for those people who were completely screwed over during the property bubble and now live in the outer, outer, outer commuter belt, they would just end up paying massively more than people who were lucky enough to live close to where they work.

Also before anyone says "they could have rented". The reality is that they couldn't have rented at the peak of the boom as the rental prices were astronomical and many landlords in urban areas would not accept families. Once you had kids they didn't even return the calls. In fact, friends of ours even had problems renting because they were a married couple. They would view places with the wedding rings off! Obviously, it's not like that now, but that's how things were back when people had to consider buying in the back of beyond to house their families.

Many of these people are already living beyond their means and this kind of stuff could just push them way over the edge.

challengemaster

Victor wrote: »

You realise that in the USA you could be paying US$1,000 a year in registration charges?

I could equally be paying $34 a year in registration charges, what's your point?

TestTransmission

si_guru wrote: »

I have actually, and I will be in Orlando in 3 weeks - shall I bring you some fags back? .. or petrol?

400 Benson for me and a bottle of Jack please.

galwaytt

challengemaster wrote: »

You've not been in the US lately, have you?

Just because the price is higher elsewhere, that doesn't mean it's OK here.

Yes, actually, and the corollary is also true.

My family's house (2000sq ft) in Atlanta is USD$3300 a year in property tax, and petrol is €0.59c/Litre. My sister commutes 70miles each way, every day, to work. None of this 'hop on the LUAS' lark, either.

So, your point is what, exactly ? You want to avoid paying only 1 tax, or both, or does the sum of the two not come into your thinking ?

creedp

corktina wrote: »

i don't support it at all, because it would only be a matter of time before they found a way to re-introduce Motor Tax under a differerent name and we'd be paying twice.

What are people like, lining themselves up to pay more?:rolleyes:

They are going to do one or 2 things in any case: either significantly increase motortax - only 4000 or the 89000 cars sold last year were outside Band B - so Motor tax is becomming insigificant or increase fuel even further. Many of these new cars are doing big annual mileage owing to long commutes and being company cars. Therefore, which would be more popular - significantly increasing motor tax on these green cars or scrapping motor tax and gaining it back on the double with an increase on fuel?

galwaytt

Solair wrote: »

Also before anyone says "they could have rented". The reality is that they couldn't have rented at the peak of the boom as..

It's even easier than that: at the height of the boom there weren't enough properties to rent anyway, so they had to be built. That they got built in oddball places is indeed, the planners fault. But hey, nothing new there.

galwaytt

creedp wrote: »

They are going to do one or 2 things in any case: either significantly increase motortax - only 4000 or the 89000 cars sold last year were outside Band B - so Motor tax is becomming insigificant or increase fuel even further. Many of these new cars are doing big annual mileage owing to long commutes and being company cars. Therefore, which would be more popular - significantly increasing motor tax on these green cars or scrapping motor tax and gaining it back on the double with an increase on fuel?

....and, what this promotes is that, when the tax exceeds the penalty for not taxing, well, it'll be cheaper to not tax and continue to drive anyway. €500 fine for a €400 Starlet - here's the keys lads, crush it away. It happens in the UK, and it'll happen more, here, eventually.

That's what increasing taxes does: it kills the goose laying the golden egg - and then noboby gets any egg(s).

Big Nasty

galwaytt wrote: »

Yes, actually, and the corollary is also true.

My family's house (2000sq ft) in Atlanta is USD$3300 a year in property tax, and petrol is €0.59c/Litre. My sister commutes 70miles each way, every day, to work. None of this 'hop on the LUAS' lark, either.

So, your point is what, exactly ? You want to avoid paying only 1 tax, or both, or does the sum of the two not come into your thinking ?

What is it with Atlanta that no matter where you are and where you're going to everywhere is always 70miles away!?!

dr.fuzzenstein

Are we doing this thing again?
Seems this crops up about once a month.

Eric Cartman

the problem is, adding it to fuel would hurt commercial users. If you converted the increase into VAT that was reclaimable it would be a fairer system as it would not hurt those who necessitate their car for business

Juniorhurler

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the problem is, adding it to fuel would hurt commercial users. If you converted the increase into VAT that was reclaimable it would be a fairer system as it would not hurt those who necessitate their car for business

I do understand what is meant above, but outside of Dublin everybody needs their car for the business of living and most families unfortunately need two.

creedp

galwaytt wrote: »

....and, what this promotes is that, when the tax exceeds the penalty for not taxing, well, it'll be cheaper to not tax and continue to drive anyway. €500 fine for a €400 Starlet - here's the keys lads, crush it away. It happens in the UK, and it'll happen more, here, eventually.

That's what increasing taxes does: it kills the goose laying the golden egg - and then noboby gets any egg(s).

Well that's why from the Govt's perspective putting additonal duty on fuel is better ... can't be avoided if you want to drive and easy to collect .. the work is done by the fuel retailers. Reality is from an PR perspecctive the green brigade have already complained about putting €60 a year on to the cost of a €156 a year car tax rate ... €60!! So what would happen if the rate went up by 50% more and that would still mean the annual car tax rate for green cars would only be a smidgen over €400. Much easier to tthrow a few cent on fuel and sell it as a carbon tax .. the greens will love it!!

keithclancy

Victor wrote: »

I agree, hauliers are already refuelling their trucks in **Belgium** (I'm not sure why its only about 3-4c cheaper), imagine what it would be like if fuel was suddenly 20c/L more expensive - huge numbers would be refuelling up north or even in Wales, people laundering fuel making a fortune and losing the exchequer money meaning taxes would have to be raised on other things.

Heard that on the radio, can't understand it though, Diesel is between 1.42 and 1.55 a liter in Belgium: Link

They'd be better off filling up somewhere around Brabant in the Netherlands, I get my Diesel for around 1.37 a liter at the moment.

Link

Its a good idea to integrate the Motor Tax into the Fuel, but if you share a border you need to get them in on it as well.

BailMeOut

unless UK/NI did the same this would create a massive fuel black market in the country.

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the problem is, adding it to fuel would hurt commercial users. If you converted the increase into VAT that was reclaimable it would be a fairer system as it would not hurt those who necessitate their car for business

Fair enough if you are concerned by HGV users, but you seem concerned for folks who necessitate their car for business. Many PAYE workers are covering big miles to get to where they work as mentioned above.

Self employed folk who necessitate their cars for business use who have a Ltd company can claim mileage as an expense at quite a tasty rate for the first 7000 or so kms per annum, so that's a good proportion of business users not hit too hard.

Anyway, they'll just be overhauling the motor tax system in the future

Voodoomelon

RoverJames wrote: »

.......... whatever about motor tax on fuel why should the entire population be hit for toll roads to the tune of 2c/litre?

Initially I thought the same, but because we make/build frig all here, everything we buy is transported by truck which use the port tunnel, M50, M1 and so on day in and day out. You don't necessarily have to be on the road to be availing of it. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be for it either.

Solair wrote: »

So, for those people who were completely screwed over during the property bubble and now live in the outer, outer, outer commuter belt, they would just end up paying massively more than people who were lucky enough to live close to where they work.

You're referring to those unlucky enough to live close to their work. At the moment, those who use the roads little or have an older car or anything more than a 2l car are screwed over. At least the other way round is fair, theres nothing fair about the current system.

Interesting poll results on the Journal website, 44% in favour, 32% against, 17% half on fuel, half on tax.

Victor

keithclancy wrote: »

Heard that on the radio, can't understand it though, Diesel is between 1.42 and 1.55 a liter in Belgium: Link

They'd be better off filling up somewhere around Brabant in the Netherlands, I get my Diesel for around 1.37 a liter at the moment.

Link

Its a good idea to integrate the Motor Tax into the Fuel, but if you share a border you need to get them in on it as well.

It may be there is a different tax treatment for commercial users in Belgium or they mean the Belgian border of the Netherlands or Luxembourg.

SouperComputer

Victor wrote: »

You realise that in the USA you could be paying US$1,000 a year in registration charges?

"could". Depends on the state you are an and age of car. I think we <$100/year per car. No other "tax" to pay other than what's added at the pump.

Guy:Incognito

SouperComputer wrote: »

"could". Depends on the state you are an and age of car. I think we <$100/year per car. No other "tax" to pay other than what's added at the pump.

The USA's approach to pricing on a rapidily diminishing non renewable resource is probably not one we should be looking at emulating. It's like a race to see who can get rid of it the quickest.

Bullseye1

Where did he get the 20 cent a Litre from?

keithclancy

Victor wrote: »

It may be there is a different tax treatment for commercial users in Belgium or they mean the Belgian border of the Netherlands or Luxembourg.

AFAIK there is no way to do a Tax Return in a country unless you have a registered company and turnover in that country, any Kilometers/Tax Exemption you claim for (its never fuel for some reason) are only on Vehicles registered via that Company.

Belgian fuel is relatively expensive, perhaps they get fleeced because they only stop at the port or the motorway stops.

Maybe he was talking about Luxembourg, last time I was there it was 99 cents a liter for Diesel around 2 years ago, however the road up that way to Brugge is rubbish, I do remember he said Belgium, but I have a feeling he was throwing out a name of some random Country on the Continent for shock value, rather than it actually being true.

MugMugs

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It's like a race to see who can get rid of it the quickest.

Can't agree more.

At this rate I'm going to run into serious trouble if they keep pushing it up (along with traders freaking out over every move Iran make)

If we ever do overtake NI then I'll happily make my way over the border and fill up. In fact I'm just waiting on the day it happens. We're being screwed for owning the cars AND running the cars.... somethings gotta give

Guy:Incognito

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Where did he get the 20 cent a Litre from?

I seem to remember a similar figure beign bandied about on the last thread on this subject. Think it was as simple as gettign the whole motor tax take , pick a figure out of the sky of 100m say. Then get the number of litres of fuel sold last yearor somesuch and add whatevers needed to make 100m.

unkel

Faughnan wrote:

“We would also push the cost of Irish fuel way above the cost of fuel in the UK, and that would have a significant impact in terms of border traffic,” Faughnan added.

The border argument is way overstated. Sure a few people close to the border will get their fuel on the other side, but this has immaterial impact on total excise / tax take. Sure a few petrol stations this side of the border will close, but hey, if you move from one economic system to another, it is never the case that every single person benefits from it.

Overall the benefit of putting tax on fuel is massive. It's easier for the state to collect the tax (costs nothing and 100% compliance). It is fairer than now with 30-40% of people dodging motor tax. And fairer not it the least because the polluter pays. Yes, some people will suffer and that is not nice for them, but most people will benefit.

Voodoomelon

Exactly.
And I don't think there would be anywhere near the uproar thats being suggested from increased fuel prices, once they clearly state the abolition of motor tax. I reckon it would be accepted quite favourably.

I cannot believe though, how short sighted the minister is in saying that it will impact badly on business and the economy. Let businesses write off the increase for fecks sake, whats the problem?

mcwhirter

Whenever Noonan speaks, I feel like ending it all, his voice is so uninspiring.

He should do Leonard Cohen covers!!!!!

MugMugs

mcwhirter wrote: »

Whenever Noonan speaks, I feel like ending it all, his voice is so uninspiring.

He should do Leonard Cohen covers!!!!!

Rosenstock has that man perfectly dubbed.

shedweller

In an attempt to put some sort of vaguely accurate figures to this:
http://omrpublic.iea.org/demand/ir_dl_ov.pdf
http://omrpublic.iea.org/demand/ir_gs_ov.pdf
From this i calculate that there's 4,929,000 litres of petrol used per day and 6,837,000 litres of diesel used per day. Using a pumps.ie breakdown on the vat and duty on both i figure 4,362,000 euro total tax on petrol per day and 6,837,000 euro on diesel.

A 20c levy will add a further 985,800 euro from petrol and 1,367,400 euro from diesel per day, which is 858,918,000 euro per year.
So the question is, what do the existing taxes come to and is 20c enough to replace the existing motor tax?
My figures may be way off though, i need sleep!

Looking at the above graphs it is plain to see the decline in fuel usage. This would also impact tax revenue even more if there was only a tax on fuel and no motor tax. As it is, we "should" pay motor tax by just owning a car. Just having tax on the fuel will put some power back into our hands as it were. With this in mind i forsee no fuel surcharge replacing motor tax. But i do forsee it coming in alongside motor tax. They are on a roll and i don't think they'll stop any time soon.

Theanswers

Just one quick point nobody seemed to noticed.

There is lots of machinery i.e.

Powerwashers, quads etc which use petrol but never go on the road. Why should these tools pay a motortax?

Noonan is right however, unless hauliers etc can claim back the differences there is going to be a huge impact on businesses.

Theanswers

Another Point,
One must remember the taxes in this country are far to expensive.

A flat rate of say 400-500 for every car would be a much better system.

156 far to cheap whereas 2,100 way to expensive. Remember we paid VRT aswell... Cost of car ownership here is terrible and many of us need a car and have no choice. No luas, dart, dublin bus or even bus eirrean.

I dont live in the back of beyonds, actually beside a main road in the country but the bus wont stop. I have walk if I wanted the bus which is 'never' over two miles to get it.

So a flat rate of tax and no increase in fuel would be better.
This is hitting the rural dweller and commuter hardest.

Ps, I lived here over twenty years so I'm no blow-in.

creedp

Theanswers wrote: »

Another Point,
One must remember the taxes in this country are far to expensive.

A flat rate of say 400-500 for every car would be a much better system.

156 far to cheap whereas 2,100 way to expensive. Remember we paid VRT aswell... Cost of car ownership here is terrible and many of us need a car and have no choice. No luas, dart, dublin bus or even bus eirrean.

I dont live in the back of beyonds, actually beside a main road in the country but the bus wont stop. I have walk if I wanted the bus which is 'never' over two miles to get it.

So a flat rate of tax and no increase in fuel would be better.
This is hitting the rural dweller and commuter hardest.

Ps, I lived here over twenty years so I'm no blow-in.

I'd have to agree that a flat tax is better for those who actually have to drive their cars! Of course the Q to ask is what other purpose would you have it for?

Also support the idea of a narrower gap in tax rates. It seem ridiculous that someone can buy a new €50,000 520d and pay €156 while at the same time paying €2,100 for an old car that might not even be worth the amount of money. I had to laugh at the green over reaction to putting up the lowest rate of tax by €60 as though this was some kind of stab in the back for those green minded people who put the plight of the world before themselves and went out an bought brand new cars! How could you be so dastardely to ask such caring persons to pay an extra €60 a year when someone struggling to keep a car on the roads could be forking out €600 plus. Maybe the greens should now ask for the TV licence to be graduated also so those with 50" plasmas should pay €1k a year while those with the new LED TV's would oly pay €50. I would wager that that proposal would get a lot of support from people driving around in executive cars paying €156 a year. By the way nothing against people driving executive cars, wish I could join them!, its the stupid car tax policy that the problem!!

MetzgerMeister

Another side to it is that if the motor tax was scrapped and a levy added to fuel, in my opinion, more people would buy bigger engined cars.

Hell I know the first thing I would do is buy an M3 because I wouldn't have to worry about the yearly tax.

If this was the case that more big engined cars were bought, it would mean more money to balance things out since these kind of cars would use more petrol.

MetzgerMeister

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

Another side to it is that if the motor tax was scrapped and a levy added to fuel, in my opinion, more people would buy bigger engined cars. ..............

....... loads and loads of folk would look for cars that use less fuel too though

MetzgerMeister

RoverJames wrote: »

....... loads and loads of folk would look for cars that use less fuel too though

That's very true but isn't that happening as it is with regard to new cars?

working fool

si_guru wrote: »

challengemaster wrote: »

You've not been in the US lately, have you?

I have actually, and I will be in Orlando in 3 weeks - shall I bring you some fags back? .. or petrol?

The yanks might be confused about the petrol bit .
And even more so if u told them u wanted to bring FAGS home for a bloke u met on the Internet ?

unkel

Theanswers wrote: »

There is lots of machinery i.e.

Powerwashers, quads etc which use petrol but never go on the road. Why should these tools pay a motortax?

They won't pay any motor tax. Motor tax will be abolished!

They will pay a pollution levy though, just like any other machine burning fossil fuels...