Will You Be Paying For Your Water?

SafeSurfer

Water charges are likely to be introduced before the end of the year. According to the Irish Times the average annual charge by 2014 will be €250 to €400 per home.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/1227/1224309523321.html

Is this a logical conservation measure or a cynical way to squeeze more cash from citizens?

ejmaztec

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Water charges are likely to be introduced before the end of the year. According to the Irish Times the average annual charge by 2014 will be €250 to €400 per home.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/1227/1224309523321.html

Is this a logical conservation measure or a cynical way to squeeze more cash from citizens?

That's the one.

billybudd

Its bull **** as they cant/wont fix the pipes that are leaking a savage amount of water on a daily basis, its a bit like paying full whack for a car that has a hole in the petrol tank, meanwhile three DCC lads sit in a truck shivering for four hours a day doing nothing.

later12

Like most Europeans, I already pay for water. I don't see any inherent objection to water charges.

Overheal

later10 wrote: »

Like most Europeans, I already pay for water. I don't see any inherent objection to water charges.

And Americans.

mikemac1

Own well, own pump and the council has nothing to do with it

I don't know if the council plan to charge in this situation but I won't be paying for council water I don't even get

I'm willing to sell water to the council if they are interested

IM0

"I dont use water"

*bangs floor in stiches*

stop man, just stop

billybudd

mikemac1 wrote: »

Own well, own pump and the council has nothing to do with it

I don't know if the council plan to charge in this situation but I won't be paying for council water I don't even get

I'm willing to sell water to the council if they are interested

They will argue that the water is a natural resource of the state and therefore you are liable to be charged for it regardless of how it is gotten.

mikemac1

Realy :eek:

I paid for the well, the trench, the pipes, the pump and the fitter who comes every year to service and check it over
Never asked the council to build pipes to us and paid a development levy to North Tipp council

And now the council want to charge me?? :mad:

Where's my shotgun, ge'er off my land

Overheal

billybudd wrote: »

They will argue that the water is a natural resource of the state and therefore you are liable to be charged for it regardless of how it is gotten.

I highly doubt this. The fees would be based on the municipality of the water treatment and delivery system, not the fact that it rains down from the effing sky.

Anyone is free to point me at some information highlighting anywhere in the Whole Wide World that charges water like that, for the pure sake of the lulz I just want to know if it's ever happened.

mikeyboy

I voted yes but it's conditional on the money being ring fenced to ensure that we are all provided with a dependable supply of potable water

stupidusername

mikemac1 wrote: »

Own well, own pump and the council has nothing to do with it

I don't know if the council plan to charge in this situation but I won't be paying for council water I don't even get

I'm willing to sell water to the council if they are interested

My dad is in the same position.the only thing you have to fall back on is if they meter it - they will be trespassing on your land to do that.

Interestingly my dad is in south tipp

later12

The only people I would agree should not pay for water are those who mickmac1 mentioned have gone to the trouble and expense of sinking their own wells, and therefore do not benefit from the council's water infrastructure.

billybudd

later10 wrote: »

The only people I would agree should not pay for water are those who mickmac1 mentioned have gone to the trouble and expense of sinking their own wells, and therefore do not benefit from the council's water infrastructure.

I agree! but thats the way they work.

k.p.h

I'v no problem with the charge one it dose not turn into a piss take, I won't be paying for a ****e water supply that's not efficiently run.

So basically I'l pay a fair price if they come and clean the limescale off my shower head ..

billybudd

Overheal wrote: »

I highly doubt this. The fees would be based on the municipality of the water treatment and delivery system, not the fact that it rains down from the effing sky.

Anyone is free to point me at some information highlighting anywhere in the Whole Wide World that charges water like that, for the pure sake of the lulz I just want to know if it's ever happened.

We shall wait and see, on a side note it will be interesting to see if they cut people off from water as depriving people of water is a violation of human rights.

ejmaztec

mikemac1 wrote: »

Own well, own pump and the council has nothing to do with it

I don't know if the council plan to charge in this situation but I won't be paying for council water I don't even get

I'm willing to sell water to the council if they are interested

They'll poison that, so's you won't feel left out.

SafeSurfer

My concern is that once water in Ireland becomes a valuable commodity pressure is put on the state by the Troika to privatize it to raise funds to pay off our debts. This would result in an infrastructure that has been built up over decades by taxpayer and EU funds being used for the benefit of private shareholders. The experience of such arrangements in the past is not encouraging.

In some cases, where access is already universal and service quality is good, fiscal motives dominate, as it was the case in Berlin, Germany, and in Chile. In Berlin the state government sold a 49.9% share of its water utility in 1999 for 1.69bn Euros in exchange for a guaranteed profit for the private shareholders amounting to the interest rate on 10-year government bonds plus 2 percent, as specified in a contract that was kept confidential until the state government was forced by a referendum to make it public. As a result, tariffs increased (15% in 2004 alone) and the state government's revenues from the company declined compared to the situation before privatization (168m Euro profit for the state in 1997 compared to a 10m Euro loss in 2003).[18] In Chile, where no wastewater treatment plants existed prior to privatization, the government's desire to finance their construction off-budget drove privatization in 1998.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization

Doc Ruby

later10 wrote: »

Like most Europeans, I already pay for water.

Overheal wrote: »

And Americans.

..this..Is...IRELAND!11!

*kicks overheal and later10 into his well*

Seriously though this isn't going to pay for water, its not going to be ring fenced, and the woeful water infrastructure isn't going to be repaired on the back of it.

Cryptosporidium from sheep sewage runoff - thats what leaked INTO the pipes in Galway not so long ago, years AFTER the money was made available to fix the problem.

That's why most people are rightly going to have a real problem with paying this tax.

brimal

Wasn't there some shocking statistic going around last year saying that something like 50% of our water is lost through cracked pipes, leaks, etc. before it even reaches anyone's homes?


Anyway, I won't have any objection to paying the water charge when it comes in.

MagicSean

mikemac1 wrote: »

Realy :eek:

I paid for the well, the trench, the pipes, the pump and the fitter who comes every year to service and check it over
Never asked the council to build pipes to us and paid a development levy to North Tipp council

And now the council want to charge me?? :mad:

Where's my shotgun, ge'er off my land

Where does your sewerage go?

later12

MagicSean wrote: »

Where does your sewerage go?

most rural people with own water supplies have their own septic tanks too.

later12

Doc Ruby wrote: »

.
Seriously though this isn't going to pay for water, its not going to be ring fenced, and the woeful water infrastructure isn't going to be repaired on the back of it.

It's going to the county councils though. So it will be spent on local services. How it is spent is rather a matter for you during the 2014 local elections. You actually have far more influence in this expenditure than you do over national expenditure.

This only applies to those who wish to avail of the council's supply in the first place of course. If someone has their own well, that's their private business. Councils should be rewarding that sort of personal responsibility, not penalising it.

mikemac1

MagicSean wrote: »

Where does your sewerage go?

Septic tank, built to all relevant planning standards

And soon enough will be paying inspection fees to the council to check it meets the standards they set

Well the council have an office of planning staff who are doing little or nothing since the downturn so may as well send them out to do something for their wages.

Another fee. Well I guess our local councillors need the money for their junkets to Boston for St Patricks Day.
I think your councillors do the same

Doc Ruby

later10 wrote: »

It's going to the county councils though. So it will be spent on local services. How it is spent is rather a matter for you during the 2014 local elections. You actually have far more influence in this expenditure than you do over national expenditure.

Sorry, you don't seem to be getting it. Beyond that the money is going into a brand new quango, even when the money is there to complete the neccessary maintenance, it can just be left sitting for years or diverted to something else, like a nice pay rise. You know who got fired for giving half the city the roaring shits last time?

Nobody. Not a sinner.

Deal with the incompetence and create some accountability, then we'll see. And by the by, they could readily cut the water processing bill in half simply by repairing the pipes.

This is a ground rent that will be combined with the property tax to see people renting off the government rather than owning their own homes outright.

SafeSurfer

later10 wrote: »

It's going to the county councils though. So it will be spent on local services. How it is spent is rather a matter for you during the 2014 local elections. You actually have far more influence in this expenditure than you do over national expenditure.

What makes you think that?

Zebra3

Will You Be Paying For Your Water?

What a moronic question.

I already pay for it through direct and indirect taxation.

Do you think that it gets to my gaff for free? :rolleyes:

This is an extra tax to pay for the gambling losses of the elite.

And the Irish, like a pack of bitches, will bend over and take it while the elite continue to live the good life.

zenno

Well they better take out the toxic chemicals like fluoride if they want people to pay more towards this rip-off scam.

they always go on to say that fluoride is good for the teeth (if you believe that garbage) but nowhere in the world does it say fluoride is good for humans/animals to be ingested.

PseudoFamous

If they get rid of the fecking discolouration in the town's tap water after heavy rain, and provide sewerage treatment that doesn't involve pumping it raw into the sea, yes.

Kev.OC

In principle, I've absolutely nothing against metered water rates. It's not like the water is pumped directly from a lake/reservoir/river directly into the pipes. The water has to be treated in order to raise it to an acceptable standard, which costs money. In short, water is a service like, gas, or electricity, or sanitation, tv, phone, etc., and for that reason I wouldn't be opposed to paying for it.

However, if water is going to cost money, it would be nice to know that along with the water itself, the pipes delivering it are themselves up to standards.

Either way, I think it's safe to say we'll be using our well for a bit more than just drinking water.

MadsL

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Cryptosporidium from sheep sewage runoff - thats what leaked INTO the pipes in Galway not so long ago, years AFTER the money was made available to fix the problem.

Any on the cheap desludging of septic tanks being 'added'to that slurry ya think?

zenno

Kev.OC wrote: »

It's not like the water is pumped directly from a lake/reservoir/river directly into the pipes. The water has to be treated in order to raise it to an acceptable standard

It may as well be pumped from chemical plants directly into our home water supply with the amount of chemicals added to it. so people will pay more money for contaminated water that has no beneficial health effects. water should be free from contaminants but including tons of chemicals to it and then charging everyone more for it is basically insane. fcuk will i be paying for this either as i don't drink from the tap as the water is contaminated by too many chemicals.

Doc Ruby

MadsL wrote: »

Any on the cheap desludging of septic tanks being 'added'to that slurry ya think?

Who cares? The money was there to solve it years before it hit international news headlines. Throwing more money at these people, whatever doesn't vanish into quango-land, without radical improvements in competence and accountability is never going to be a good idea.

later12

SafeSurfer wrote: »

What makes you think that?

I think it's generally accepted that it is easier for communities to argue for policy change on small, local matters by the representatives who live amongst them than in trying to shift the slow, trudging wheels of macroeconomic policy.

Doc Ruby

later10 wrote: »

I think it's generally accepted that it is easier for communities to argue for policy change on small, local matters by the representatives who live amongst them than in trying to shift the slow, trudging wheels of macroeconomic policy.

Irish water:

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (SF) said Mr O’Dowd had also mentioned that a new quango, Irish water or presumably uisce Éireann, would be established to take over supply and maintenance from 34 local authorities. “I do not see this in the legislative programme, although the Minister of State expressed his hope that legislation would be ready to set up that quango before the end of the year.”

Whatever the case you can bet that spending will be opaque in the extreme.

SafeSurfer

later10 wrote: »

I think it's generally accepted that it is easier for communities to argue for policy change on small, local matters by the representatives who live amongst them than in trying to shift the slow, trudging wheels of macroeconomic policy.

A new quango Water Ireland is to be created, not overseen by the county councils.

County councils in Ireland are an expensive joke. They are underfunded and dominated by national political parties. Take for example Leitrim county council. Twenty two councilors represent a county with a population of 29,000 people, deduct those too young to vote and those who did nt vote at the last local election and you find that a Councillor represents about 650 people. There are head boys and head girls in schools all over Ireland with a stronger democratic mandate than that.

LighterGuy

Sad fact is everyone has to pay it :mad:

But the one thing I hate is that once these taxes are in ... they are in for good (household charge, levys etc)

jimmycrackcorm

Why do we pay for electricity? Has anyone actually seen electricity?

mikemac1

SafeSurfer wrote: »

A new quango Water Ireland is to be created

And jobs for the boys no doubt :mad:

later12

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Irish water:

Whatever the case you can bet that spending will be opaque in the extreme.

You can and will have a central agency assisting many utilities under a local authority's remit. One example is the library council, which advises and reports on library services, but those services remain firmly under the control of the local authority. A relatively similar example might be An Bord Pleanala, though this has more strategic responsibility than would be envisioned in terms of water management, whose administration is more straightforward.

Calling something a quango is not quite an argument in itself, you know; nor is it necessarily correct to call any central council or body dealing with water supply would be a quango.

later12

SafeSurfer wrote: »

A new quango Water Ireland is to be created, not overseen by the county councils.

I'm sure, but water supply will remain the responsibility of the councils.

Why do you call Water Ireland a quango? Do you know what a Quango is? Surely Water Ireland would be a fully fledged public agency under direct control of the Department of The Environment.

LH Pathe

Freddie Feeloader says: "just put it on the tab; cùnts."

SafeSurfer

later10 wrote: »

I'm sure, but water supply will remain the responsibility of the councils.

Why do you call Water Ireland a quango? Do you know what a Quango is? Surely Water Ireland would be a fully fledged public agency under direct control of the Department of The Environment.

later10 wrote: »

You can and will have a central agency assisting many utilities under a local authority's remit. One example is the library council, which advises and reports on library services, but those services remain firmly under the control of the local authority. A relatively similar example might be An Bord Pleanala, though this has more strategic responsibility than would be envisioned in terms of water management, whose administration is more straightforward.

Calling something a quango is not quite an argument in itself, you know; nor is it necessarily correct to call any central council or body dealing with water supply would be a quango.

I know what a quango is quasi-autonomous non-governmental organisation . Listing An Bord Pleanala as an example of a service under the control of local authorities somewhat undermines your credibility.

later12

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Listing An Bord Pleanala as an example of a service under the control of local authorities somewhat undermines your credibility.

though this has more strategic responsibility than would be envisioned in terms of water management,

As you see, I am giving ABP as an example of an agency with its own strategic remit, but that can assist the local authorities. Not one that is under their control. Local authorities and ABP have a strong dialogue, yet ABP do not stand on the local authority's toes unless there is a question of unfair treatment of a planning application, for example.

Now, if that's answered, why are you calling Water Ireland a quango?

That seems to suggest you don't know what a quango is.

Is mise le key

NO

If you also agree with me then please sign the petition on 'Article 31'

later12

Is mise le key wrote: »

NO

If you also agree with me then please sign the petition on 'Article 31'

Do you realise what an implicit mockery you're making of people without genuine access to water?

There are entire communities for whom such regulations were designed who are dying or have their lives endangered because they cannot access clean water.

It is established under international law that the relevant right is to clean and affordable water - not an unlimited right to piped water regardless of one's personal situation. A government must make provision for those who would otherwise have to forego shelter, food, healthcare or educational resources in order to gain access to clean drinking water, but it is entirely legitimate to ask those who can contribute to do so.

The right to sanitation provides a clear set of principles, such as participation, affordability and non-discrimination to guide policy development. However, it does not define a specific policy or framework for implementation.

- UN Sub-Commission on the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights, Res. 2006/10, Promotion of the realization of the right to drinking water and sanitation

Do yourself a favour and quit citing UN or international law as a means to excuse yourself from paying for your local water supply. It does your argument no favours.

Apanachi

mikemac1 wrote: »

Own well, own pump and the council has nothing to do with it

I don't know if the council plan to charge in this situation but I won't be paying for council water I don't even get

I'm willing to sell water to the council if they are interested

Not sure exactly how they will be charging in Ireland, but if they do it like they do in Germany, owning your own well and pump won't exclude you from water charges, you will be just paying a bit less (ie only waste water - which here at least is more expensive)

Is mise le key

later10 wrote: »

but it is entirely legitimate to ask those who can contribute to do so.
.

Amazing how the sudden introduction of water charges here, that we are told is for improving state services, coincides with the IMF laying it out in their MOU in order to lend ireland 'Money'.

Will the IMF be using this funding to assisst in water projects in less developed countries where it is most needed?

Will it be used in Ireland to upgrade the system for all?

Dont kid yourself with the noise that is being spewed out from 'official sources' that we suddenly need to introduce water charges in order to make the supply of water better for all. i woukld have no issue paying charges on anything at all if i knew the funds were going into state projects that would benefit the population at large.

This simply is not the case, so again,

NO

later12

Is mise le key wrote: »

Amazing how the sudden introduction of water charges here, that we are told is for improving state services, coincides with the IMF laying it out in their MOU in order to lend ireland 'Money'.

First of all, I think you're shifting goalposts. To engage with the point anyway:

Who said it is only to improve state services? Nobody here is denial about the MoU or the necessity of introducing water charges in order to help make up a serious revenue shortfall at both local and national level, whereby we are spending an amount of money we dont have: 138% of our income excluding the payments to the banks.

Will the IMF be using this funding to assisst in water projects in less developed countries where it is most needed?

What a bizarre question - the aim is to bridge the gap between our income and our expenditure on public services.

Your 'petition' is a silly exercise that makes a mockery of international legal provisions for some of the world's most impoverished people. It is also factually incorrect in asserting some mythical and universal legal right to water without having to pay water charges. That's the point I am making, and I have no idea why you are wasting your time in such an exercise.

I don't mind paying for water itself, but I sincerely doubt these water charges are going to go toward fixing the systems or whatever that badly need fixing.

Nothingbetter2d

to be fair they have put alot of new pipes in carlow town recently and its still ongoing.... the streets & road surfaces are in a terrible state as a result of it all. But i doubt this new extortion tax will be used to fix any of it.