Proof of Purgatory - Hungry Souls

Onesimus

I know I mentioned this in another thread which was slightly off topic but wish to rehash it and give it it's very own thread for discussion. The Church and Museum in Rome on the Tiber ''The Sacred Heart of Sufferage'' houses documented proof of visits by the souls in purgatory.

I am at the moment reading the book ''Hungry souls'' which also focuses upon this Church too in it's book and is it's primary focus. I'm just interested if anyone has read the book and what they make of it?

Obviously as Fr.Mario Di Lanni Says: ''These are personal objects that dont interfere with faith at all. We believe in purgatory because its a dogma of faith. These documents dont increase or diminish it. But they remind us of the reality of purgatory and of the souls that are in it. This is whats important.''

I am not yet finished reading the book but it really has made it quite clear that Heaven and the afterlife is not just a simple thing of curiousity. It's real and it means business. Even priests and religious were in purgatory and visited their friends on earth looking for prayers. One story of a Nun who was in purgatory just for her refusal to accept God's will and her impatience. Even the tiniest of flaws or imperfections in us can put us in purgatory. Which really does say a lot that we gotta be just immaculate at the hour of death.

It is surely God's mercy and I'm interested in the subject a lot now from reading the book and I must say I've been neglecting my prayers for the souls in purgatory for quite some time now but this book has hopefully inspired me to change my behaviour around 360 Degrees.

I've attached some videos that go into some more detail. One from Rome reports and the trailer of Hungry Souls book and some pics too from the Museum. Let me know your thoughts. And...if you have any prayers for the souls in purgatory that you wish to share please share them here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjn3uBvQVEY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztGekQa7rWg

philologos

Firstly, what are the pictures supposed to be of?

Secondly, what Biblical reasons do you have for the belief in purgatory?

Mr. Loverman

Also, isn't this just more stories? I don't see how this is "proof".

SonOfAdam

It would be hard to talk of purgatory without rehashing the whole works/grace arguement but the one line that stuck out for me is:

Onesimus wrote:

Even the tiniest of flaws or imperfections in us can put us in purgatory. Which really does say a lot that we gotta be just immaculate at the hour of death

If any of us were to be 'immaculate' it would call into question the need for the cross, the idea that we are separated from God and dead in our sins and that not one of us is righteous. The Bible tells us something different, that we are lost and without hope, that we all fall short of the law and that we cannot change the condition we are in of ourselves. Hence, the reason for the cross, to bring us from death to life. Just before
Jesus died he said 'It is finished' - so the question you should ask is, 'Is it finished or not ?'

Onesimus

Philologos there are many many apologetics on the internet for the basis of Purgatory in the Bible. Look them up.

I find it funny how you rebuke Q in one thread and tell him that you could refute his certain arguments but that they are not for this thread but the protestant megathread and yet here you are doing exactly what Quad was doing in another thread....starting a debate. The same goes for Son Of Adam.

The term ''immaculate'' I use not in the sense that we must be without original sin. All Sanctified souls ( those in the state of perfection at death ) need to be prepared in some way before entering Heaven. When we sin on earth and are forgiven of this sin. The Stain of sin still remains and we must do penance or atone for our sins here, and whatever sins we didnt finish atoning for we do so in the abode of the dead ( Purgatory ).

The photos above are of souls who visited us looking for prayers. If you read the book ''Hungry Souls '' you'll gain a better understanding of the story behind the objects in the museum.

Allow me to reiterate that I dont want this thread going off into a Protestant/Catholic debate about purgatory. It's Obvious there are more intelligent Catholic apologists out there than me and if you want to look for a debate, debate with them. I have Faith in purgatory. No intellectual argument is gonna convince you of purgatory or dissuade me of it either.

SonOfAdam

Onesimus wrote:

The Stain of sin still remains and we must do penance or atone for our sins here, and whatever sins we didnt finish atoning for we do so in the abode of the dead ( Purgatory ).

So the answer is 'No, it is not finished' - Jesus didn't atone enough so we have to do some ourselves.

Mr. Loverman

Onesimus wrote: »

The photos above are of souls who visited us looking for prayers.

Surely the more obvious explanation is dirty hands.

homer911

Onesimus wrote: »

The photos above are of souls who visited us looking for prayers.

Whether a person believes in purgatory or not..

• The Bible tells us not to try to commune with the dead
• Why would any dead spirit put dirty hand prints on things if they were "looking for prayers"? If they could do that much, surely they could write a message and tell us all about Heaven/Hell/purgatory at the same time?

Slav

Do souls have hands? Also from Christian point of view isn't it some sort of Platonism to think literally of any conscious and active existence of souls separated from their bodies?

Onesimus wrote: »

I have Faith in purgatory.

What does it mean to have faith in Purgatory? If the take the St.Paul's definition of faith from Hebrews 11:1 I can see how one's faith in God, in Incarnation, in Cross, in Resurrection, in Atonement, in works of Holy Spirit, in resurrection of the dead, in the life in God to come can be "the substance of things hoped for" and "the evidence of things not seen". Does your faith in Purgatory also fit into Paul's definition?

No intellectual argument is gonna convince you of purgatory or dissuade me of it either.

Does it mean we Christians here on boards.ie are so bad at critical thinking that no intellectual arguments are of any use for us in ecumenical dialogue?

HamletOrHecuba

Slav wrote: »

Do souls have hands? Also from Christian point of view isn't it some sort of Platonism to think literally of any conscious and active existence of souls separated from their bodies?

I got the impression from a link you posted that you are Orthodox, is that correct? If so surely you cant confess "soul sleep" seeing as prayers addressing departed saints are part of your liturgical tradition which would suggest that the departed do have a conscious and active existence?

Clearly souls do have some sort of body given the appearance of Samuel to Saul in the Bible and the experience of those who have temporarily left their bodies.

Slav

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

I got the impression from a link you posted that you are Orthodox, is that correct?

That's right.

If so surely you cant confess "soul sleep" seeing as prayers addressing departed saints are part of your liturgical tradition which would suggest that the departed do have a conscious and active existence?

Orthodox tradition (small t) in general is very allegorical and metaphorical about the "after life" (e.g. "toll houses" and all that jazz) but by no means Orthodox are obliged to believe it and especially in its literal interpretation. For Orthodox it's important that the saints are alive in Christ; this is the main liturgical implication and everything else are pure speculations of little (if any) soteriological value. Many consider the saints we commune with as bodily resurrected. This way it is easily reconcilable with Christian anthropology. But as I said it's a rather academic exercise of little practical value. My question about Platonism was not an attack on Purgatory as such but rather a general question on the influence (positive or negative) of Platonism on Christianity, Orthodoxy included, in the context of souls living separately from the bodies.

gimmebroadband

philologos wrote: »

Firstly, what are the pictures supposed to be of?

Secondly, what Biblical reasons do you have for the belief in purgatory?

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

gimmebroadband

homer911 wrote: »

Whether a person believes in purgatory or not..

• The Bible tells us not to try to commune with the dead
• Why would any dead spirit put dirty hand prints on things if they were "looking for prayers"? If they could do that much, surely they could write a message and tell us all about Heaven/Hell/purgatory at the same time?

God permits the dead to commune with the living to asks for prayers and sufferages.

In the bible in the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah showed themselveses (Matt 17: 1-17). Heaven wasn't opened up until Jesus resurrection, so they weren't in Heaven, they also weren't in Hell, so they were somewhere in-between.

HamletOrHecuba

Slav wrote: »

My question about Platonism was not an attack on Purgatory as such but rather a general question on the influence (positive or negative) of Platonism on Christianity, Orthodoxy included, in the context of souls living separately from the bodies.

Several Fathers put forward the possibility that Plato was influenced by the Hebrew prophets- just saying. Clearly in the Apocalypse we see saints actively imploring God to have justice on the world before their physical resurrection so I cant see how a belief in a conscious and active life after death and before the restoration of the body is un-Biblical.

HamletOrHecuba

gimmebroadband wrote: »

God permits the dead to commune with the living to asks for prayers and sufferages.

In the bible in the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah showed themselveses (Matt 17: 1-17). Heaven wasn't opened up until Jesus resurrection, so they weren't in Heaven, they also weren't in Hell, so they were somewhere in-between.

Very good point about Moses!!!!

Though Elijah hasnt actually died yet but was taken alive up into paradise.

The Quadratic Equation

SonOfAdam wrote: »

So the answer is 'No, it is not finished' - Jesus didn't atone enough so we have to do some ourselves.

That's rubbish and you know it, so we'll move on.

Onesimus

[FONT=arial, verdana, sans-serif] Prayer to Our Suffering Savior for the Holy Souls in Purgatory [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, verdana, sans-serif]O most sweet Jesus, through the bloody sweat which Thou didst suffer in the Garden of Gethsemane, have mercy on these Blessed Souls. Have mercy on them.
R. Have mercy on them, O Lord.

O most sweet Jesus, through the pains which Thou didst suffer during Thy most cruel scourging, have mercy on them.
R. Have mercy on them, O Lord.

O most sweet Jesus, through the pains which Thou didst suffer in Thy most painful crowning with thorns, have mercy on them.
R. Have mercy on them, O Lord.

O most sweet Jesus, through the pains which Thou didst suffer in carrying Thy cross to Calvary, have mercy on them.
R. Have mercy on them, O Lord.

O most sweet Jesus, through the pains which Thou didst suffer during Thy most cruel Crucifixion, have mercy on them.
R. Have mercy on them, O Lord.

O most sweet Jesus, through the pains which Thou didst suffer in Thy most bitter agony on the Cross, have mercy on them.
R. Have mercy on them, O Lord.

O most sweet Jesus, through the immense pain which Thou didst suffer in breathing forth Thy Blessed Soul, have mercy on them.
R. Have mercy on them, O Lord.

(Recommend yourself to the Souls in Purgatory and mention your intentions here)

Blessed Souls, I have prayed for thee; I entreat thee, who are so dear to God, and who are secure of never losing Him, to pray for me a miserable sinner, who is in danger of being damned, and of losing God forever. Amen. [/FONT]

Read more: http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/novena/Purgatory.htm#ixzz1jkIfNZYR

Above is a nice prayer and Novena ( follow the link ) which I have just begun today.

philologos

gimmebroadband wrote: »

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

I've seen this before. The references don't point specifically to purgatory. In fact the first is in relation to legal disputes. The second has nothing to do with purgatory, we are made perfect by Jesus' death and resurrection - our sin has been taken away by His sacrifice on the cross for mankind.

The rest are equally tenuous. We've seen links from scripturecatholic.com all over this forum, I don't see how one could find any of those passages as compelling support for purgatory.

gimmebroadband

philologos wrote: »

I've seen this before. The references don't point specifically to purgatory. In fact the first is in relation to legal disputes. The second has nothing to do with purgatory, we are made perfect by Jesus' death and resurrection - our sin has been taken away by His sacrifice on the cross for mankind.

The rest are equally tenuous. We've seen links from scripturecatholic.com all over this forum, I don't see how one could find any of those passages as compelling support for purgatory.

I can see how one would think that if the bible is the sole reference! However, Catholics rely on two witnesses, Sacred Scriptures and Apostolic Oral Tradition!

The Quadratic Equation

philologos wrote: »

I've seen this before. The references don't point specifically to purgatory. In fact the first is in relation to legal disputes. The second has nothing to do with purgatory, we are made perfect by Jesus' death and resurrection - our sin has been taken away by His sacrifice on the cross for mankind.

The rest are equally tenuous. We've seen links from scripturecatholic.com all over this forum, I don't see how one could find any of those passages as compelling support for purgatory.

You asked for scripturual references, you were given dozens, along with the beliefs of the earliest christians. He can quote each one seperately if you prefer and you can attempt to dispute them line, by line, by line.

Now, please provide us with proof from the bible that purgatory does not exist, and that the earliest Christians did not believe in it.

philologos

Dozens of references which don't mention purgatory. Why should I assume that purgatory exists if there is no sound Biblical reason to think so?

I believe the most convincing reason for rejecting it has already been mentioned. Jesus died for all sin, once and for all. This is particularly evident in the book of Hebrews. Purgatory nullifies the significance of Jesus' death and resurrection.

The Quadratic Equation

philologos wrote: »

Dozens of references which don't mention purgatory. Why should I assume that purgatory exists if there is no sound Biblical reason to think so?

lol another fail. Please find the word trinity in the bible for us then.

philologos

The concept of the Trinity is referred to in a number of passages quite clearly (Matthew 28 is an example). Purgatory simply isn't as far as I can tell.

The Quadratic Equation

philologos wrote: »

The concept of the Trinity is referred to in a number of passages quite clearly.

Not if you're a Nontrinitarian denomination.

philologos wrote: »

Purgatory simply isn't as far as I can tell.

It was quite clear for the first 1600 years.

philologos

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Not if you're a Nontrinitarian denomination.

It doesn't matter what denomination you are. Trinitarian belief is essential to being a Christian, and it is explicit in the Bible.

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

It was quite clear for the first 1600 years.

This requires that we accept the narrative that the RCC is the same church that Jesus founded. I don't believe this given that the RCC didn't exist until after Constantine, and that other churches existed prior to it.

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I can see how one would think that if the bible is the sole reference! However, Catholics rely on two witnesses, Sacred Scriptures and Apostolic Oral Tradition!

The New Testament is the same thing as the witness of the Apostles.

The Quadratic Equation

philologos wrote: »

It doesn't matter what denomination you are. Trinitarian belief is essential to being a Christian, and it is explicit in the Bible.

This requires that we accept the narrative that the RCC is the same church that Jesus founded. I don't believe this given that the RCC didn't exist until after Constantine, and that other churches existed prior to it.

A la carte Christianity, I see. Take it to the Catholic / Prodestant debate thread rather than trying to derail this one, or can you practice what you preached yesterday ?

philologos

I'd be happy to. It'd be good if this thread could be merged there. A thread that is specifically on the topic of purgatory welcomes questioning. The other thread wasn't specifically on a subject which is the centre of that debate.

Onesimus

philologos wrote: »

I'd be happy to. It'd be good if this thread could be merged there. A thread that is specifically on the topic of purgatory welcomes questioning. The other thread wasn't specifically on a subject which is the centre of that debate.

This thread should NOT be merged as it was a thread created with no intention for Protestant/Catholic debate.

philologos

How is it alacarte Christianity to say that the RCC didn't exist prior to Constantine?

Onesimus, are you saying that people can't question your position on purgatory on this section?

Believe it or not my posts aren't meant to be inflammatory, I'm genuinely curious as to why one would believe in purgatory.

The Quadratic Equation

philologos wrote: »

I'd be happy to. It'd be good if this thread could be merged there. A thread that is specifically on the topic of purgatory welcomes questioning. The other thread wasn't specifically on a subject which is the centre of that debate.

That's what the Prodestant / Catholic debate thread was created for, unless you want seperate threads to debate sola scriptura, sola fide, etc. etc etc. etc. etc. as well.

When tradition was debated on another thread you insisted it would be taken to the Catholic / Prodestant thread.

I suspected you won't be content untill this thread is derailed.

HamletOrHecuba

philologos wrote: »

I've seen this before. The references don't point specifically to purgatory. In fact the first is in relation to legal disputes. The second has nothing to do with purgatory, we are made perfect by Jesus' death and resurrection - our sin has been taken away by His sacrifice on the cross for mankind.

The legal debt of our sin is released through the Cross.

Does that not mean though that we our purified, purged if you will, through suffering by God in this life? Surely everyone can agree to that?

“we must through much tribulation enter into the Kingdom of God.” (Acts 14:22)

"For whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives." (Hebrews 12:6).

Now, that this would be completed after death in order for the soul to enter Heaven is hardly a strange idea is it?

gimmebroadband

philologos wrote: »

The New Testament is the same thing as the witness of the Apostles.

Not ALL things were written down!

philologos

HamletOrHecuba: I'd encourage you to read Galatians right through and see what Paul says about the Gospel throughout. The point as far as I can tell is that Jesus has already "purified" us through His death and resurrection. That's why I feel that purgatory is like going through the car wash twice. Revelations also points to this.

As for "much tribulation", that doesn't refer to purgatory, that refers to the tribulations that Christians regularly receive and regularly received. It also could have reference to do with the tribulation before Jesus' return.

The idea that we need to be "purged" seems strange in the light of what Jesus Christ came to do.

Slav

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Several Fathers put forward the possibility that Plato was influenced by the Hebrew prophets- just saying.

Although the idea of Plato being influenced in any way by Judaism is a pure speculation without much evidence, if we assume that it did take place then still it's definitely was not something that Plato could borrow from Judaism: look how Old Testament is remarkable silent on any "after life" issue.

Clearly in the Apocalypse we see saints actively imploring God to have justice on the world before their physical resurrection so I cant see how a belief in a conscious and active life after death and before the restoration of the body is un-Biblical.

I did not say it's unbiblical. The thing is that the Bible allows a very broad range of interpretations. In this sense teachings of all mainstream Christian denominations are all biblical (i.e. they don't contradict and sometimes supported by certain Bible interpretation) even though they they might contradict each other. So one can no problem interpret the Bible in a way where Purgatory fits in nicely.

Slav

philologos wrote: »

It doesn't matter what denomination you are. Trinitarian belief is essential to being a Christian, and it is explicit in the Bible.

In fairness a non-trinitarian would make a very strong case against the concept of Trinity as being explicitly defined in the Bible. For example, Trinity in the Great Commission you mentioned above (Matthew 28) is most likely to be the later addition. There is evidence that the original simply read "Go make disciples of all the nations in my name". The fact that this way it's perfectly in tune with the book of Acts only adds weight to this view:

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:5)

But even if Trinitarin verses were the original of Matt 28:19 or 1 John 5:7-8 it still would not be the doctrine of Trinity as we know it today in Mainstream Christianity. Trinity is not just about naming Father, Son and Spirit (this is the least part of the doctrine) but most importantly it's about the ontological relations between them. This could not be found in the Bible (at least explicitly) because the philosophical apparatus which the doctrine employs did not exist in the first century. This is the development of Late Antiquity.

SonOfAdam

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

That's rubbish and you know it, so we'll move on.

I don't know that it's rubbish. Onesimus said that we had to atone for sins in purgatory that weren't atoned for in life. The whole condition of man is that he cannnot change his status himself and so the idea of atoning for one's own sin is not only contrary to the gospel but repugnant to it.

A read through Galatians will show how utterly ridiculous grace is to our minds - we always look to bring something of ourselves to it - whether it's struggling to live under the law or atoning for our sin or any number of things that we do to try to futilely justify ourselves. The Good News of the Gospel is that it has already been done for us - It is finished - we have simply to accept it. So, now we'll move on

HamletOrHecuba

philologos wrote: »

HamletOrHecuba: I'd encourage you to read Galatians right through and see what Paul says about the Gospel throughout. The point as far as I can tell is that Jesus has already "purified" us through His death and resurrection. That's why I feel that purgatory is like going through the car wash twice. Revelations also points to this.

As for "much tribulation", that doesn't refer to purgatory, that refers to the tribulations that Christians regularly receive and regularly received. It also could have reference to do with the tribulation before Jesus' return.

The idea that we need to be "purged" seems strange in the light of what Jesus Christ came to do.

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

Galatians 5:24.

Now as soon as we come to believe in Christ and accept Him as our Lord are our fallen affections and lusts crucified? Is what St Paul saying there "strange in the light of what Jesus Christ came to do"?

I didnt say that it referred the passage in Acts referred to purgatory however it is clearly in line with what St Paul says in Hebrews about the Lord's discipline and the need for Christians to suffer; why this need?

Now if someone was to say that purgatory was needed in order to offer legal satisfaction as some do, than that indeed would be strange in the light of Christ's work on the Cross. However I wasnt putting that idea forward. The completion of the work of purification begun on earth after death does make sense.

HamletOrHecuba

Slav wrote: »

I did not say it's unbiblical. The thing is that the Bible allows a very broad range of interpretations. In this sense teachings of all mainstream Christian denominations are all biblical (i.e. they don't contradict and sometimes supported by certain Bible interpretation) even though they they might contradict each other. So one can no problem interpret the Bible in a way where Purgatory fits in nicely.

There is truth in this but not as much as a lot of people think; the problem arises when people fixate on one or two verses and instead of interputing them in the light of the whole interput the whole in the light of them and so end up believing or seeing things in a way that flat out contradicts other parts of the Gospel. This is a problem within Roman Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodoxy.

It is extremely important for Christians to study the Bible, particularly the New Testament, regularly otherwise we risk creating a shallow or even demonic spiritual life for ourselves. Bishop Ignatius Brianchaniov talks about this at great length in his brilliant but frightening book The Arena.

keano_afc

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

lol another fail. Please find the word trinity in the bible for us then.

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.

Genesis 1:26. Who do you believe is being referred to by the use of the words "us" and "our"?

Thats just one verse. On topic, Christ died for our sins. Past, present and future. If there was a waiting room before heaven, why did Jesus tell the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise." Would he not have had to spend X amount of years in purgatory attoning for his sins? Its a ludicrous doctrine, which totally undermines Christ's death. What is is about the Catholic faith that it just cant accept Christs death as finite? We dont have to do anything additional to Christs death, "...lest anyone should boast".

HamletOrHecuba

keano_afc wrote: »

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.

Genesis 1:26. Who do believe is being referred to by the use of the word "us"?

The Three Persons of the Holy Trinity?

Slav

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

There is truth in this but not as much as a lot of people think; the problem arises when people fixate on one or two verses and instead of interputing them in the light of the whole interput the whole in the light of them and so end up believing or seeing things in a way that flat out contradicts other parts of the Gospel.

I disagree. The interpretation of Bible is generally subjective but if the criteria you use to assess the quality and consistency of a certain interpretation are subjective as well then you are not going to get an objective picture. The reading of the Bible by a Calvinist and a Roman Catholic might differ substantially and contradict each other on many points but I admit both interpretations are perfectly logical and internally consistent.

It is extremely important for Christians to study the Bible, particularly the New Testament, regularly otherwise we risk creating a shallow or even demonic spiritual life for ourselves.

Well, Christians these days do study the Bible extensively, don't they?
The lack of interest in the Bible is the last thing you can suspect modern Christians of I think.

keano_afc

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

The Three Persons of the Holy Trinity?

Thats the point of the post, the poster I quoted was looking for biblical reference of said Holy Trinity.

Slav

keano_afc wrote: »

Thats the point of the post, the poster I quoted was looking for biblical reference of said Holy Trinity.

The problem with that verse is that it does not say that there are three of "us". Maybe it's 2? Or 9000? How can we be sure it's the Christian view of God and not, say, Kabbalistic? Does it say that those behind "us" are united in one ousia but still distinct in their hypostases?

You can certainly interpret the verse as being about Trinity but only if you already have the doctrine defined. You cannot derive the doctrine from the verse though.

keano_afc

Slav wrote: »

The problem with that verse is that it does not say that there are three of "us". Maybe it's 2? Or 9000? How can we be sure it's the Christian view of God and not, say, Kabbalistic? Does it say that those behind "us" are united in one ousia but still distinct in their hypostases?

You can certainly interpret the verse as being about Trinity but only if you already have the doctrine defined. You cannot derive the doctrine from the verse though.

Bit like the doctrine of purgatory, no? Any belief in purgatory requires inserting doctrine into scripture, not the other way around.

Slav

keano_afc wrote: »

Bit like the doctrine of purgatory, no?

Yes, that's how I see it as well. Of course with the exception that Trinity is believed by all mainstream Christianity while believe in Purgatory is essentially limited to Catholicism.

Any belief in purgatory requires inserting doctrine into scripture, not the other way around.

In fairness, Catholics don't claim the doctrine of Purgatory to be derived from the Scripture alone as far as I know. RCC is OK with the development of doctrine and speaking of Purgatory the Bible is certainly not the only and not even the main source of the doctrine. So Purgatory does not need to be inserted into Scripture in order to be a sound doctrine from the Catholic point of view. As fr as Scripture is concerned, Purgatory does not contradict their interpretation of the Bible; some verses might even be interpreted to support Purgatory (but not necessarily define it) and that's good enough in Catholicism. The rest is up to Tradition.

Onesimus

Here is another short and effective prayer from my nannys ( Eternal memory ) prayer book:

For one lately deceased:Absolve, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the soul of Thy servant N . . ., from every bond of sin, that being raised in the glory of the ressurection, he may be refreshed among the Saints and Elect. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.

HamletOrHecuba

Slav wrote: »

Well, Christians these days do study the Bible extensively, don't they?
The lack of interest in the Bible is the last thing you can suspect modern Christians of I think.

Do they? The Gospel calls to ascetic struggle. I dont see much of that around (and Im not saying that Im up to scratch either). Christians today ignore things in the Bible all the time.

Anyway, I know the Orthodox reject a legalistic understanding of purgatory however is painful purification of the saved after death ruled that as well and if so how does that fit in with the Orthodox stress on the need for voluntary and involuntary suffering in this life in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? I have read in one writer that this happens in the toll houses, but I know that not all Orthodox believe in the toll houses and personally I have a lot of trouble with that doctrine.

Temptamperu

This is all a bit horrible. I thought your god loved you and forgave all your sins at confession. So why does he have a tortorus waiting room?

Onesimus

Temptamperu wrote: »

This is all a bit horrible. I thought your god loved you and forgave all your sins at confession. So why does he have a tortorus waiting room?

The Church doesnt teach that Purgatory is torture. Purgatory is Gods Mercy and Love for those who are not ready to stand before God. They must be prepared for it and they do this in purgatory. God forgives us in confession. But the stain of the sin remains on the soul. This is why the priest orders you to do Penance afterwards to wipe this away. For whatever we dont atone for here on earth, we do so in Purgatory.

God doesnt put us in Purgatory. We put ourselves there through our own fault.

philologos

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

Galatians 5:24.

Now as soon as we come to believe in Christ and accept Him as our Lord are our fallen affections and lusts crucified? Is what St Paul saying there "strange in the light of what Jesus Christ came to do"?

No. What Paul has said in the letter is that Jesus Christ dwells in the lives of those who believe and trust in Him (Galatians 2:20-21). Likewise in Philippians it says that Jesus Himself will dwell in our lives and work in them bringing them to full completion (Philippians 1:6). This is referred to as sanctification.

We can be assured if we have genuinely put our trust and faith in Jesus, that He will never leave or foresake us, and that He will help us live fully for Him.

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

I didnt say that it referred the passage in Acts referred to purgatory however it is clearly in line with what St Paul says in Hebrews about the Lord's discipline and the need for Christians to suffer; why this need?

Now if someone was to say that purgatory was needed in order to offer legal satisfaction as some do, than that indeed would be strange in the light of Christ's work on the Cross. However I wasnt putting that idea forward. The completion of the work of purification begun on earth after death does make sense.

God disciplines us. I don't see how that refers to purgatory. That happens in this life.

philologos

Onesimus wrote: »

The Church doesnt teach that Purgatory is torture. Purgatory is Gods Mercy and Love for those who are not ready to stand before God. They must be prepared for it and they do this in purgatory. God forgives us in confession. But the stain of the sin remains on the soul. This is why the priest orders you to do Penance afterwards to wipe this away. For whatever we dont atone for here on earth, we do so in Purgatory.

God doesnt put us in Purgatory. We put ourselves there through our own fault.

Why do we need to do penance of Jesus has paid for the price of our sin in full on the cross? - If you claim this, I believe that you make Jesus' crucifixion null and void. The idea that we can work for our salvation is the antithesis of what Jesus achieved on the cross for our sake.