Did we do the maths right ?

Liam Byrne

We were doing some maths today as a result of the news of increases in petrol prices

Average mileage = 15,000
Tax on petrol = 60%

Five years ago, petrol was approx €1 a litre; assuming about 35mpg that makes the 15,000 miles come to €2,000, with €1,200 of that going in tax

Now petrol (not including any VAT increase) is 50% dearer

That means a direct €600 extra in tax for every average driver.

A few scans of stats sites suggest a variance of 2 to 2.5 million cars registered in the state.

That seems to make at least €1.2 billion extra in fuel tax that the government has that it didn't have 5 years ago.

Can someone spot an error in the above, or are the government seriously wasting €1.2 billion more per year than 5 years ago ?

That increase ALONE seems to be nearly half the required budget cut!

That can't be right, can it ?

MadsL

It would appear that you are wrong...and I'd love an explanation, 'cus I saw that the same way as you - but I'd suggest that a contracting economy is to blame as a buoyant economy drives fuel consumption...

Tax take on mineral oil...(source)


2004 - 1958 m
2005 - 2042 m
2006 - 2141 m

...


2010 - 2075 m, there is however a carbon tax estimate of 223 m


So, sorry, no easy fix.


PS - buy my car and you can contribute less tax though

ardmacha

Can someone spot an error in the above

,

Yes. You have no reference whatsoever to the price of oil in €.

or are the government seriously wasting €1.2 billion more per year than 5 years ago ?

The government is spending less than 5 years ago. It has to collect more tax on fuel as taxes on other things have fallen and it is borrowing a lot of money. It isn't rocket science to work this out.

Liam Byrne

ardmacha wrote: »

Can someone spot an error in the above

,

Yes. You have no reference whatsoever to the price of oil in €.

What does that have to do with anything ?

60% of whatever is taken at the pumps goes straight to the government in tax.

The higher price of the barrel of oil then gives the government - on a fixed percentage of the higher price - a fixed income.

The exact price of oil in euro doesn't have any bearing on that.

Liam Byrne

MadsL wrote: »

It would appear that you are wrong...and I'd love an explanation, 'cus I saw that the same way as you - but I'd suggest that a contracting economy is to blame as a buoyant economy drives fuel consumption...

Tax take on mineral oil...(source)


2004 - 1958 m
2005 - 2042 m
2006 - 2141 m

...


2010 - 2075 m, there is however a carbon tax estimate of 223 m


So, sorry, no easy fix.


PS - buy my car and you can contribute less tax though

Some people driving less (not commuting due to being unemployed) would affect the overall total alright, but the fact remains that for all the uproar over a €100 tax the majority of the population has still completely missed the fact that they are being screwed for an additional €600 each.

MadsL

Your error is that you assume that fuel consumption and therefore tax take is a constant. It isn't and it fluctuates as a factor of the economy.

We are simply not using as much fuel now (I'm not using any at all now for example, and neither are thousands like me) as we were in 2006.

Liam Byrne

MadsL wrote: »

Your error is that you assume that fuel consumption and therefore tax take is a constant. It isn't and it fluctuates as a factor of the economy.

We are simply not using as much fuel now (I'm not using any at all now for example, and neither are thousands like me) as we were in 2006.

Sorry to hear that.

But still - per person still working/commuting it's €600 extra, which is an absolutely astonishing increased-tax figure to have been overlooked by all media!

ardmacha

But still - per person still working/commuting it's €600 extra, which is an absolutely astonishing increased-tax figure to have been overlooked by all media!

The price of fuel is the pretax price + duty + VAT. You have provided no evidence about the pretax price or the level of duty, so you cannot say that tax has risen by any particular amount.

Perhaps even the media are capable of seeing this.

Liam Byrne

ardmacha wrote: »

But still - per person still working/commuting it's €600 extra, which is an absolutely astonishing increased-tax figure to have been overlooked by all media!

The price of fuel is the pretax price + duty + VAT. You have provided no evidence about the pretax price or the level of duty, so you cannot say that tax has risen by any particular amount.

Perhaps even the media are capable of seeing this.

What ? I'm calculating the change in tax take based on duty and tax rates that haven't changed, so since Conor Faughnan stated today on the radio that they total 60%, that is the figure used.

They were 60% of the €1, meaning that pre-tax would have been 40c

They are 60% of the €1.50, meaning that pre-tax is now 60c

Both reflect the exact same 50% increase.

I have absolutely no idea what point you are trying to argue, or to what purpose.

Cookie_Monster

duty is a flat rate rather than a percentage though isn't it?

don't forget the difference in petrol vs diesel, both price and volume consumption change. Most new cars are diesel these days, a recent phenomenon

Liam Byrne

Actually, the AA did highlight it last year, to be fair, plus had it as 3 years ago, not 5, but they got an almost €600 figure based on only 12,000 miles per year

“The typical Irish motorist will use 150 litres of fuel per month based on doing 12,000 miles per year at 30 miles per gallon. That means the monthly fuel bill is now €225. In January 2009 petrol cost 95 cent per litre, and the monthly bill was €142.50,” he added.

Source : http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0308/1224291590429.html

€82.50 x 12 = €990 extra

60% of €990 = €594

ardmacha

We know the cost to the motorist has gone up €600 or so. Your claim is that this is all tax and you haven't produced any evidence.

MadsL

except there aren't enough individual 'six hundred euro a year' to add up to the previous level of consumption in Ireland...



Spot the trend...

Liam Byrne

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

duty is a flat rate rather than a percentage though isn't it?

True, but remember that carbon tax was added (and then increased) since too, adding approx 15c in total, meaning the overall percentage didn't change a whole lot - maybe throwing the calculation out by 10% at most.

Liam Byrne

ardmacha wrote: »

We know the cost to the motorist has gone up €600 or so. Your claim is that this is all tax and you haven't produced any evidence.

Completely incorrect.

The cost to the motorist has gone up by €990, and 60% of that is tax.

MadsL

...and demand for fuel has gone down..

Liam Byrne

MadsL wrote: »

...and demand for fuel has gone down..

It's still €600 extra being screwed from a lot of us for zero benefit!

Dannyboy83

MadsL wrote: »

We are simply not using as much fuel now (I'm not using any at all now for example, and neither are thousands like me) as we were in 2006.

You have to account for black market fuel, which is booming.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2011/0704/1224300030694.html
During the boom, when fuel prices were low and most people were not under financial pressure, the illegal fuel laundering market contracted.

In all of 2009 and the first half of 2010, for example, there were no finds of illegal laundering plants in the State. But in the first five months of this year, investigations by the Garda and Revenue’s Customs officers uncovered five illegal plants. The last one was found a month ago in Co Monaghan, and was the biggest ever discovered in the State. It was capable of laundering an estimated 20 million litres of fuel annually at a cost of some €11 million per year to the Exchequer in taxes and duties forgone.

http://insideireland.ie/2011/07/21/fuel-laundering-plant-discovered-in-monaghan-25703/
An illegal fuel laundering plant has been discovered in Ballybay, Co Monaghan.
The plant was hidden among bales of straw in a shed.
It is the eighth significant fuel-laundering discovery made this year; four of which were in Monaghan.

The government are trying to tax too much.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/fuel-prices-hit-record-highs-as-vat-bites-2989681.html
AA Ireland, which compiled the data, has accused the Government of making a bad situation worse.

"It was a policy of the last Government (increasing prices), it was wrong then and it's still wrong now," AA Ireland's Conor Faughnan told the Irish Independent.

"In terms of its practical effect, it sucks money out of the pockets of ordinary families and the more it does that, the more damage it does to the economy. Ultimately, it ends up costing the exchequer money rather than making it."

Mr Faughnan claimed the Government had scored an 'own-goal', citing falling petrol consumption as evidence.

"In 2011, the total amount of fuel sold in the country was down by about 6 or 7pc in response to rising prices. That means the exchequer take is also down.

"When you look at the net effect of that policy it is to reduce trade, to reduce VAT receipts, to reduce sales and ultimately the Government is collecting less money, not more," he said.

A senior government spokesman has conceded that the increase is having a negative effect on consumers.

A spokesman for Transport Minster Leo Varadkar said the minister accepted that the cost of living would be affected.

Liam Byrne

A spokesman for Transport Minster Leo Varadkar said the minister accepted that the cost of living would be affected.

Easy for him to "accept" it when he's earning getting paid a small fortune.

And to think I used to like/respect the guy. :mad:

Dannyboy83

Does the SEAI chart measure only legal fuel consumption or does it take smuggling into account?

If you were to measure legal cigarette consumption in Ireland, you would think 33% of smokers have quit.
But they do try to measure contraband, and estimate that 1 in 3 cigarettes are now smuggled.

MadsL

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It's still €600 extra being screwed from a lot of us for zero benefit!

But not the 1.2billion fix you were looking for..

You might find this data useful...

Maxol wholesale prices..

EFFECTIVE FROM: 27-Oct-2005
SCHEDULE # 387

Decrease on all products

Notes

All Prices are in Cent Per Litre

€uro
€uro Cent

VAT
PRODUCT GRADE
Cent
VAT
Price

rate
Price
(Cent
incl. VAT
21%
Motor Spirit Unleaded 92.59
19.44
112.03
21%
Retail D.E.R.V. 95.86
20.13
115.99
21%
Commercial D.E.R.V. 95.86
20.13
115.99
13.5%
Gas Oil 62.64
8.46
71.10
13.5%
Kerosene 64.79
8.75
73.54

EXCISE DUTY CONTENT

The above figures include the following amounts of Excise

€uro Cent per

litre

UNLEADED 44.27

DERV 36.80

GAS OIL 4.74

KERO 3.17



EFFECTIVE FROM: 17-Dec-2011
SCHEDULE # 886

Petrol -0.32, Derv -0.31, Gas Oil -0.46, Gas oil

Notes
10ppm -0.33, Kero -0.25. Note figures for duty

include NORA levy and Carbon tax.

All Prices are in Cent Per Litre

€uro Cent
€uro Cent

VAT
PRODUCT GRADE
Price excl.
VAT
Price

rate
VAT
(Cent)
incl. VAT
21.0%
Motor Spirit Unleaded 130.12
27.33
157.45
21.0%
Retail D.E.R.V. 132.15
27.75
159.90
21.0%
Super Unleaded 146.37
30.74
177.11
13.5%
Gas Oil 91.53
12.36
103.89
13.5%
Gas Oil (10ppm) 93.26
12.59
105.85
13.5%
Kerosene 89.53
12.09
101.62

EXCISE DUTY CONTENT

The above figures include the following amounts of Excise Duty

€uro Cent per

litre

UNLEADED 60.77

Super Unleaded 60.77

DERV 49.90

GAS OIL 10.87

GAS OIL (10ppm) 10.87

KERO 5.80



Raw Data is here if you want to datamine.

http://www.maxol.ie/schedule_sheets/wholesalearchive.html

Dannyboy83

http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/article/1231/how-big-is-the-illicit-tobacco-trade-in-europe
In Ireland, for example, the steep excise duty increases during 2000-2009 were not shown to provide any increases in tax revenue. It showed little, if any, drop in tobacco consumption; yet, illicit trade increased from 8 per cent in 2005 to approximately 25 per cent of the market in 2009.

Do we have any similar statistics for fuel in Ireland?

Taxi Drivers

Everything you need is on pages 18-22 of this Revenue report but it only gives data up to 2010.

Excise Duty from fuels was €2.1 billion in 2007. Even with price and tax increases that had fallen to €2.0 billion in 2010 because of lower consumption. The Carbon Tax brought into about €0.2 billion so receipts rose by €0.1 billion not €1.2 billion.

Liam Byrne

MadsL wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It's still €600 extra being screwed from a lot of us for zero benefit!

But not the 1.2billion fix you were looking for

True, but it's still sickening and the government should be pulled up on it....I mean, just how much extra tax do they reckon we can afford ? Do they even care as long as they have their cushy overpaid waffle positions ?

Liam Byrne

Taxi Drivers wrote: »

Everything you need is on pages 18-22 of this Revenue report but it only gives data up to 2010.

Excise Duty from fuels was €2.1 billion in 2007. Even with price and tax increases that had fallen to €2.0 billion in 2010 because of lower consumption. The Carbon Tax brought into about €0.2 billion so receipts rose by €0.1 billion not €1.2 billion.

Where's the VAT on fuels in that equation ?

MadsL

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The government are trying to tax too much.

Or failing to police effectively. Seize and crush more cars - that should send a message.


Liam, there's a problem with your numbers I think.

In 2005 Tax take was (44c) 39.5% of the retail cost
In 2011 tax take was (60c) 38.5% of the retail cost

So tax take has actually remained fairly flat, diminishing by 1 point and decreasing in real value due to falling demand.

It looks like you just made the argument for increasing the tax take on fuel!! :eek:

Dannyboy83

Taxi Drivers wrote: »

Everything you need is on pages 18-22 of this Revenue report but it only gives data up to 2010.

Excise Duty from fuels was €2.1 billion in 2007. Even with price and tax increases that had fallen to €2.0 billion in 2010 because of lower consumption. The Carbon Tax brought into about €0.2 billion so receipts rose by €0.1 billion not €1.2 billion.

Thanks for the link.

So in summary... our government have increased taxes so much that they are making less revenue than before the tax increases, it's strangling both consumer spending and business, all while massively enriching the criminals who smuggle fuel.

How typically Irish.:rolleyes:

later12

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Thanks for the link.

So in summary... our government have increased taxes so much that they are making less revenue than before the tax increases, it's strangling both consumer spending and business, all while massively enriching the criminals who smuggle fuel.

How typically Irish.:rolleyes:

Hard to say which side we are on in terms of the (theoretical) Laffer curve because of how consumers are altering their behaviour in light of non tax related motoring costs.

It may be that families under financial strain were quick to lose one car, or that people are generally switching to more fuel efficient or smaller cars, and that this is as much related to their personal financial situation as it is to excise and tax.

I mean the auto industry is certainly struggling, but is that all because of fuel taxes? No, I don't think it is.

Liam Byrne

MadsL wrote: »

Liam, there's a problem with your numbers I think.

In 2005 Tax take was (44c) 39.5% of the retail cost
In 2011 tax take was (60c) 38.5% of the retail cost

Where did you get those figures from ?

They're significantly at odds with the graphic here

So are the AA fibbing ?

As the question at the end of my post says - I'm open to correction because it seemed astonishingly high to me!

Dirk Gently

Liam I think you under estimate the drop in consumption volume in the past few years. I work in a transport industry and while anecdotal what I've noticed is based on Dublin city, a heavy traffic area.

Our own fleet has been reduced 80% since the height of the boom, our competitors, those who are still around would be reduced at similar levels. Travel times have halved due to less traffic, almost freeflow except for work rush hours which aren't half as bad as they use to be. The other rush times (school deliveries and collections) has dramatically reduced too as families have sold the second car / jeep and kids are busing or walking to school instead of being dropped off in mammys jeep. After work delays have decreased dramatically too, very little activity in the evenings (people driving to shops/cinemas/resturants). People are buying more fuel efficient cars, using them less and less people have them. It's all just my own observations but this is what I've noticed over the past 3 years compared to the previous 3 or 4.

ardmacha

They're significantly at odds with the graphic here

There are not.

So are the AA fibbing ?

No, but the data is 2009. As usual people are quoting data from a different year as if it was current.

In 2009, as you can see, diesel was €1.04. So the duty was a bigger proportion of the retail price then because the cost of oil dipped in 2009.

Now diesel is about €1.44, some of that 40c is duty/VAT but more is the pre-tax cost of the product.

Liam Byrne

ardmacha wrote: »

They're significantly at odds with the graphic here

There are not.

So are the AA fibbing ?

No, but the data is 2009. As usual people are quoting data from a different year as if it was current.

In 2009, as you can see, diesel was €1.04. So the duty was a bigger proportion of the retail price then because the cost of oil dipped in 2009.

Now diesel is about €1.44, some of that 40c is duty/VAT but more is the pre-tax cost of the product.

I don't know where you're getting the 'as usua blah blah blah' part. :rolleyes:

I was listening to 4fm YESTERDAY when Conor Faughnan appeared to mention a tax of 60% figure.

Now, if that was a misheard "60c" or an equivalent mistake on his part, then fair enough. But that makes little sense since the duty is almost that alone.

The overall figure has been debunked anyway due to a staggering drop in driving habits. So let's get to the bottom of the proper figures.

Now diesel is about €1.44, some of that 40c is duty/VAT but more is the pre-tax cost of the product.

That's pretty obvious and contains zero information unless you have a figure for "how much".

Secondly, where did I mention diesel, which has a lower duty ?

ardmacha

So let's get to the bottom of the proper figures.

It seems to me that various posters have shown that the tax take as a proportion of petrol price is within the range of that of previous years. This means that the government is taking more tax, but as there is somewhat less travel and people have more efficient cars this does not mean more revenue. What else is there to say?

Madsl posted a link with the data. Why don't you produce a chart of the proportion of taxes and other costs for the last 7 years and then make your point?

i

Liam Byrne

ardmacha wrote: »

So let's get to the bottom of the proper figures.

It seems to me that various posters have shown that the tax take as a proportion of petrol price is within the range of that of previous years.

And yet you disputed and challenged this every single post ?

This means that the government is taking more tax, but as there is somewhat less travel and people have more efficient cars this does not mean more revenue.

Yes, the drop in driving habits has been extreme.

But I want to know if we are indeed paying 60% tax on petrol, because if so then we should be highlighting this €600 increase as proof that average workers can't afford to be screwed any more!

Dannyboy83

ardmacha wrote: »

It seems to me that various posters have shown that the tax take as a proportion of petrol price is within the range of that of previous years.

Is this not the core problem?

Incomes have fallen from the ranges of previous years.

Yet, while costs have increased (beyond govt. control), taxes have also increased in line with costs!

Taxes should also be falling in line with incomes, not increasing in line with costs.

Geuze

Excise rates:

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/excise/duties/excise-duty-rates.html

Petrol = 57.77 c

Diesel = 47.9 c

Plus VAT at 23%.

Geuze

Breakdown of diesel at 1.55

Ex-VAT is 1.26, so VAT is 29c

Duty is 47.9c, so tax is 76.9 cent.

So today, on 1.55 diesel, tax is 49.6% of the price.

Geuze

http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/publications/statistical/2010/excise.pdf

More details above, p18 onwards.

You can see that the tax on diesel has varied from 50-55% of the price over the years.

Tragedy

December 2006:
Base price for UNL: 47.12c
Duty: 44.27c
VAT: 19.19c
Retail: 110.58c

December 2011(before VAT increase):
Base price for UNL: 69.35c (47.1%)
Duty: 60.77c (37.2%)
VAT: 27.33c (42.4%)
Retail: 157.45c (42.4%)

Overall, VAT+Duty have increased by just under 40% when comparing 12/06 with 12/11.

Compare UK with Ireland here and you can clearly see government intervention.

ardmacha

Liam Byrne wrote:

And yet you disputed and challenged this every single post?

I have not. I have thanked posts where the posters looked up the data and produced proper calculations.

I have challenged posts by you where you say that the government has imposed €600 tax on each motorist.

You have ignored the data provided and continued to bang on about this €600.

Dannyboy83 wrote:

Taxes should also be falling in line with incomes

They have. That is why there is a deficit.

Liam Byrne

ardmacha wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote:

And yet you disputed and challenged this every single post?

I have not. I have thanked posts where the posters looked up the data and produced proper calculations.

I have challenged posts by you where you say that the government has imposed €600 tax on each motorist.

You have ignored the data provided and continued to bang on about this €600.

Dannyboy83 wrote:

Taxes should also be falling in line with incomes

They have. That is why there is a deficit.

The fact is that the increase in the base price HAS added about €500 tax to each motorist (revised from €600 by ignoring the AA's 60% figure and using the 48.5% above instead), and I don't even know if that includes carbon tax/NORA.

What part of that can't you get your head around ?

If prices rise by 50% (which they did) and the government are taking a percentage tax (which they are, more or less) then the government get a free 50% increase! It's not rocket science!

Liam Byrne

Geuze wrote: »

Breakdown of diesel at 1.55

Ex-VAT is 1.26, so VAT is 29c

Duty is 47.9c, so tax is 76.9 cent.

So today, on 1.55 diesel, tax is 49.6% of the price.

Plus carbon tax ? Approx 11c AFAIK, moving that 49.6% up to approx 55% ?

Tragedy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The fact is that the increase in the base price HAS added about €500 tax to each motorist (revised from €600 by ignoring the AA's 60% figure and using the 48.5% above instead), and I don't even know if that includes carbon tax/NORA.

What part of that can't you get your head around ?

If prices rise by 50% (which they did) and the government are taking a percentage tax (which they are, more or less) then the government get a free 50% increase! It's not rocket science!

It gets 50% more in tax/duty, but tax/duty only go up by 25%.

Liam Byrne

It gets 50% more in tax/duty, but tax/duty only go up by 25%.

Yes. €2,000 a year in fuel = €600 €500 extra tax taken from your pocket, which is 25%.

The government take rises from €1,200 €1,000 to €1,500 which is the 50% more.

antoobrien

Exicse duty gathered on petrol & diesel in 2006: €2.043 billion
Exicse duty gathered on petrol & diesel in 2010: 2.074 billion

From the 2010 document (tables 14 & 16)

The tax as % of price in 2006 was
petrol: 60.3%
diesel: 53.2%

2010
petrol: 58.7%
diesel: 53.3%

Dannyboy83

ardmacha wrote: »

Originally Posted by Dannyboy83
Taxes should also be falling in line with incomes

They have. That is why there is a deficit.

How do you reconcile this with your earlier statement (posted below)?

ardmacha wrote: »

It seems to me that various posters have shown that the tax take as a proportion of petrol price is within the range of that of previous years. This means that the government is taking more tax, but as there is somewhat less travel and people have more efficient cars this does not mean more revenue. What else is there to say?

Geuze

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Plus carbon tax ? Approx 11c AFAIK, moving that 49.6% up to approx 55% ?

Yes, those excise rates include the carbon tax.

Again, see here:

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/excise/duties/excise-duty-rates.html

Correct as of Dec 2011.

Hmmm, I wonder do they include the recent increase in the carbon tax??

Dannyboy83

cast_iron

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The government take rises from €1,200 €1,000 to €1,500 which is the 50% more.

So the price of the commodity has risen by 50%, and we pay 50% more at the pump. I don't see the shock factor of the fact that the government are taking more cash per litre of fuel as a result of this. It's a fact that they take in or around the same cut of the retail price. I know of no government that are actively reducing fuel prices.

And how you think it's comparable to the introduction of a household tax, I really don't know. They are not remotely the same thing. One can be easily explained by the increase in the cost of pre-tax price of the product you purchase (fuel), the other is a new, annual tax being imposed on a product that had previously had no tax implications after the initial purchase cost - which was mostly tax anyway.

Liam Byrne

cast_iron wrote: »

So the price of the commodity has risen by 50%, and we pay 50% more at the pump. I don't see the shock factor of the fact that the government are taking more cash per litre of fuel as a result of this. It's a fact that they take in or around the same cut of the retail price. I know of no government that are actively reducing fuel prices.

And how you think it's comparable to the introduction of a household tax, I really don't know. They are not remotely the same thing. One can be easily explained by the increase in the cost of pre-tax price of the product you purchase (fuel), the other is a new, annual tax being imposed on a product that had previously had no tax implications after the initial purchase cost - which was mostly tax anyway.

I agree that commodities go up and down, affecting the tax take.

I acknowledge that if you buy a TV that's now half the price the tax take is 50% less.

But the fact remains that everyone who works and lives has no choice but to do a certain amount of mileage and that results in everyone paying €600 extra per annum......nothing is made of this, with lots of fuss over the new tax.

And given that we're paying €600 extra for petrol (plus a proportional equivalent for home heating) where the hell do they reckon we're supposed to find an extra €100 to pay the new tax ?

I guess the main point is that we're being taxed to the hilt in this country and we scream blue murder over the obvious ones while completely missing the more substantial and subtle ones.

Liam Byrne

Current average petrol price: 154.9
Current Vat: 28.97c/litre
Fixed Duty: 59.622c/litre
Government take: 88.59c/litre
Cost before tax & duty: 66.31c/litre
Retailer & distributor margin (est): 11c/litre
Base petrol price (est): 55.31

http://www.pumps.ie/FAQPricesExplained.php

57% tax, so AA weren't fibbing....mind you, still no carbon tax mentioned, which is strange.