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GSD Nuetering/Breeding
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16-01-2012 10:34pm#1
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Why does it have to be either neuter him or breed from him?
IMO from what reading I have done on the subject the best option for the health of the dog is to leave them entire until they reach maturity and neuter later in the dogs life, this means you avoid the risks of bone deformities and cancers that can be caused by neutering too early. As dogs age they become more likely to develop testicular tumours and more likely to have prostate problems as the prostate continues to grow in an entire dog so I reckon the best time to neuter is somewhere between these two stages (around 2 and a half to 3 years old for a large breed).
There are no health advantages to breeding from a dog - only disadvantages. A GSD should never be bred from unless it is a working dog and has outstanding hip scores.0 -
Hi,
Would it keep him healthier to let him breed if someone wanted him as he is from a good showline. Vom Quinberg if that means anything to anyone.
I can understand your frustration OP!
However, and I'm going to be brutally honest here, as a German Shepherd owner, the showlines of this breed in their current form are not dogs I like to see people breeding from. The Vom Quinberg lines included... please don't take offence to this:o, but the whole German Shepherd show scene is rampant with people who refuse to see the damage they've done to this fabulous breed, and refuse to change the fact that their dogs have weak, almost useless hind legs and hind quarters which render them completely useless to do the stuff they were bred to do. Indeed, the selfish behaviour of these breeders was exposed on the documentary "Pedigree Dogs Exposed", on which program the dogs they bred were described as FrogDogs. The IKC don't seem to have the nuts to take them on, but then, neither does the UK KC, as much to the disgust of genuine GSD fans everywhere, a bandy-legged GSD won Best of Group in Crufts last year:(
To me, show line GSDs are a non-breed, their breeders not worthy to take money off anybody for the mutants they're breeding. They have ruined German Shepherds.
So, as someone who devoutly advises that people only buy from carefully selected, healthy, and at the same time placid, working lines, I'd plead with your husband not to add any more to the problem. If you bought him as a pet, keep him as a pet! IKC papers don't confer a duty to breed, though many people seem to think otherwise (I did too, in the dim, distant past:rolleyes:)
I'd also hold off neutering him.. there's no rush. I wonder what would happen if you snuck him off to be neutered and got neutricles inserted, would your OH ever notice? Come to think of it, I could be onto something here
PS Breeding from him will have no effect whatsoever on his health that I know of, other than some potential risks.0 -
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That would be my suspicion/concern too. I'd like to add to my post above, I have a lesser issue with spaying bitches. While certain health issues do increase, there seems to be a definite benefit with regard to various reproductive cancers and infections. So it may well be a case of six of one, half dozen of the other. With the caveat that studies show larger breeds in particular shouldn't be sterilised too early.
I was pretty amazed at this bit from Spay Ireland; http://www.spayweekireland.ie/blog/?page_id=17
When to Do It?
The latest recommendations from surgical staff at UCD are that neutering should be carried out at an earlier age than has previously been suggested.
It is now recommended that:
* Both male and female cats should be neutered/spayed at 4-5 months of age
* Both male and female dogs should be neutered/spayed at 5-6 months of age.
Damn near every scientific study you care to mention disagrees pretty strongly with earlier neutering in dogs, particularly with larger breeds. I'm really surprised the UCD vets have downgraded the ages. Especially given they're the surgical team. Study after study has shown a direct correlation between orthopedic problems, abnormal bone growth and a significant increase in the risk of bone cancer in early neutered dogs. Intact dogs, as well as rarely coming down with prostatic cancer, are much less prone to things like ACL failures, HD and the like. In small dogs it's an issue, in larger breeds it's a serious issue. I'd love to see their reasoning.
Ditto for weight gain. While we're told weight gain is not an issue and can be tempered by proper diet and exercise, there are a fair amount of overweight dogs out there, so practice often doesn't follow theory. Which stands to reason. Remove testosterone from a male animal and fat deposits increase and muscle tissue decreases. This is a given in endocrinological terms. Even in humans women lay down fat more easily and have less muscle mass and less dense bones than men on average. Lower test is one of the major factors. If a man had to be surgically castrated for medical reasons, doctors would have him on hormone replacement therapy in a heartbeat. Same for a younger woman whose ovaries were removed. Yet we're expected to believe it's ticketyboo, even beneficial across the board for our dogs? Then again we're also led to believe that yearly multiple viral vaccinations are a written in stone necessity, on pain of no insurance etc. Even though good science strongly suggests this is not a necessity on a yearly basis. Then again many vets are also selling dry foods commercially and backing same with some seriously dubious "science" behind it(one vet recently told me that raw meat would; make my dog vicious/cause deformities because of the high protein/his dry food was better. Talk about utter quackery. I didn't retain his services while suggesting he might be better served treating ducks considering...). So I suppose I'm not that surprised TBH.
I'd also add given the differences in risks involved with male versus female dogs, the former shouldn't be neutered as a given which seems to be the mantra these days. Lower risk sterilisation of one gender should be enough.
This concerns me. My fella is about 6 and a half months now and is due to be neutered on Friday. He's a rescue dog and part of the adoption process was signing a contract that stipulated he'd be neutered by 8 months of age.
I wasn't aware of these risks, especially with large breed dogs. He's a GSD X, so i'm quite concerned now
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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It's more likely than not. There's a reason that the very pro spay groups point out that aggression drops in male dogs after castration. Removal of testosterone in a male reduces the maleness of said animal. This is a given. After all it's the "male hormone". He's likely going to be less driven, less active and hormonally he will lose muscle mass and increase fat. Again this is damn close to a given scientifically. There's a reason why bodybuilders take more testosterone than their bodies produce. It builds muscle and lowers fat and increases bone density and drive(of course in the case of overproduction causes it's own problems).With regard to the weight gain, loss of muscle mass and bone density, would it be fair to say that my MAX, who is already a lazy, lovable creature would be even lazier if he was neutered.
From my bitter experienceDBB, you mentioned about the vom quinbergs breeding, (no offense on my part) do you know about them, should I be careful of his hips etc. Does he need extra care, supplements when he's older etc.
I don't understand about the ''low back'', what implications does this have in later life for a GSD. Anyone I have spoken to in local pet shops have recommended the breeder i get him off of and apparently all his dogs have good elbows and hips.. many years ago what too many GSD breeders consider good hips and other joints is a good bit away from what actually constitutes good joints. Plus while they may score joints at say 2 years of age, try following up what the state of the same dogs joints are at 7 or 8.
The excessively low back is a fashion thing, not a functional thing. The German lad, the originator of the breed back in the day wasn't fond of overly square dogs. He considered a slightly lowered back end good for fluid and strong movement. However he'd have a shítfit at the state of the "standard" today. He was thinking of the "perfect dog", for working and family life, with a strong body and even temperament. Both can be hard to find with many GSD lines. Especially as DBB said with the so called "showlines". Honestly? And obviously speaking personally here, I'd not touch a show line GSD with someone elses ten foot bargepole. Again personally speaking I would be of the opinion that these showlines should be avoided like the plague and the breeders that promote them ditto. Just do a search online for the show winning dogs both abroad and here and watch how the "breeders" try to force an already skeletally compromised dog into an even dafter low back position. All for fashion. Like I said my definition of a "good" breeder in GSD's would likely conflict with too many of the self appointed guardians of the breed.
TL;DR? ask the breeder what the average hip scores are for his or her lines. Insist on numbers around 10, or better yet lower than 10 and see how far you get. Scores of 20 are NOT healthy. At best they're a serious compromise and that compromise will get worse with age.
My 2 cents anyway. Others mileage may vary.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59145
Sorry TMD I was (badly) making the point using your quote that perceived positive changes in behaviour after neutering may be down to that developmental shift in gears around that age anyway, rather than the procedure itself. Especially in bitches.TooManyDogs wrote: »I'm really not sure why you're quoting me. I said that dogs are generally neutered around 6 - 9 months old, not that dogs are generally neutered.
Is it just me or is this a really sad state of affairs.tonsiltickler wrote: »OP I wouldn't pay too much attention to the lineage of your dog. Buying a GSD is enough of a minefield, some of the show dogs have amazing temperament and terrible health problems, some of the most square and healthy GSD's have terrible aggression and nervousness etc... GSD's were one of the best all around dogs health and temperament wise in the past. Just on personal experience I never met a bad one growing up. Now it seems they have so many faults and I put those faults squarely at the feet of the breeders of this dog. Clearly they need "new blood". Maybe from some of the non German European stocks? EG I gather the Czech lines, the more working lines are much better in this respect? EDIT oh and the breed "standard" desperately needs changing. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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tonsiltickler wrote: »Nothing too detailed here, just want to add my 2 cents. I have a 9 month old female gsd and plan on getting her neutered in the next few months. Whatever the possible health implications, It would be tough to deal with any accidental breeding, there are too many dogs in rescue's etc..
OP I wouldn't pay too much attention to the lineage of your dog. Buying a GSD is enough of a minefield, some of the show dogs have amazing temperament and terrible health problems, some of the most square and healthy GSD's have terrible aggression and nervousness etc...
Maxs lineage is of no difference to me, it's just the comments that were made about him being from a von quinberg. He's exactly what I want in a dog, a big fool.:D I just want to keep him that way. I don't think papers or breeding is going to have an impact on a dogs personality....but then what would I know, i'm finding out something new here everyday.
My last gsd was psychologically damaged, it was sad case, the vet suggested putting him down, we didn't have to in end. He was great once we were there with him, but had major issues once outside the house. The vet suspected abuse and said he was better suited to a junk yard.:mad:
Thanks for the advice.0 -
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+1 You can have an entire male dog and make the decision not to neuter him (granted you are adding much more responsibility as an owner)adrenalinjunkie wrote: »Why does it have to be either neuter him or breed from him?
It doesn't mean that you intend to breed!
Once you are responsible enough to ensure that he is never given the opportunity to father an unwanted litter, I don't think anyone has the right to judge someone else for making a well-informed decision about thier own dog.0 -
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AJ and Wibbs,
You'll have to forgive me for not replying here sooner, I've a huge amount on my plate right now (January is always mental here) so I really need to curtail my time on the interweb for the next while.adrenalinjunkie wrote: »DBB just as a matter of interest, would I be correct in assuming that most of your case studies would have underlying issues (abandonment, abuse, poor handling, lack of training, lack of socialisation, developmental problems due to diet issues, poor breeding etc.)
I am just wondering if this is the case, would this have any bearing at all on the behaviour aspect of neutering, I would imagine not, perhaps differences are more obvious in such cases pre and post neutering, but I am just wondering if the same logic would apply to a well socialised, well fed, generally well looked after etc. dog.
You're referring to rescue dogs here?
There's about a 50:50 divide between dogs coming from good homes, and dogs coming from poor backgrounds. the standard of breeding in almost all is pretty poor, suchj is the prevalence of byb and puppy farming here.
The well cared-for dogs , on balance, probably have about as many behavioural problems as the poorly treated dogs, but they're in different categories. The well cared-for dogs, for example, are often already neutered, are housetrained, and any problems with them are generally related to being snarky with other dogs or cats. The poorly treated ones can have issues around housetraining, resource guarding, and fear.
It's hard to tell what the effect of neutering is in my setup here, as we don;t have the dogs in for long enough before neutering to see a before/after effect. So I don't know if background has an effect in my case.Any comment on the aforementioned debate over neutering Rotties? Particularly the significant increase in bone cancers in a breed already susceptible?
Yes I do! Yes you're right
! I am putting my "senior moment" down to my reading too fast and getting my papers mixed up, which I'm blaming on my above-mentioned mad schedule at the moment. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!
It is a shocking statistic though. However, I'm not sure that vets are not spreading the word.. are they not? Why wouldn't they? My own vet is well aware of it.. she's surely not alone?Would you not agree that holding off on neutering such dogs(and other breeds where similar genetics are at play) may be advisable?
In fairness, I never said otherwise. I have posted here before that I don't agree with neutering any dog too early.
I was pointing out though that some of the percentages you were posting were based on a tiny risk to start out with, but this context was not given in your posts. Therefore, the risk is that people would read such posts, and be scared into not neutering their dog, ever, because they think it's at risk of something that it's barely at risk of at all.Particularly in people running rescues would selection bias not be more at play here? They're naturally much more likely to see the intractable cases that come to them. "The majority of respondents (68.3%) reported that their dog exhibited a behaviour problem, the most common being fearfulness.". Well socialised and trained dogs are less likely to end up in rescues one would think. Basically they see the "sick" cases more often.
Not my experience. As I posted above, I get about a 50:50 split in the really well cared-for dogs being surrendered, and the poorly cared-for dogs. Most owners, of both group of dogs, don;t cite behaviour problems as being the reason for rehoming. The reason, most of the time, is simply that the owner doesn't want the dog any more.A Martian would get a skewed result if they attempted to judge the overall health of a human city by just visiting its hospitals.
One criticism I have of the 2007 Rottie study was that the authors didn't apportion any significance to the bias amongst respondents to their questionnaire. I have never read a paper before where this sort of bias was not noted as being a confound. The Rottie owners were targetted via vet clinics. If other similar reports are anything to go by, the ones who responded are more likely to be really "into" their dogs, and so are not truly representative. Pedantic I suppose, but seeing as you brought it up!Dogs already abandoned/handed into rescues, usually for behavioural problems.
The Wells report notes that 31% of dogs are originally surrendered for behavioural problems, according to their owners. Although that's a good chunk of dogs, there are a lot more surrendered for other reasons.Rescues that from what I gather from the folks here running same insist on neutering dogs before fostering them out. Yet if neutering was the panacea claimed by many* why are 63% of people reporting an ongoing bahaviour problem? If these presumably neutered dogs, particularly males are still showing "more unacceptable behaviours than females, specifically inter-male aggression, sexual problems and straying tendencies" after neutering by the rescues, then what gives there?
68.3% (not 63%) of people in this report. It must be remembered that this report got owners of new shelter dogs to fill out questionnaires within one month of adopting their dog.
Neutering can have an immediate effect on behaviour, but most beneficial effects are not seen for some time. This report could not have picked up on behavioural changes brought about by neutering within this short time frame, and neither does it try to.
Also bear in mind the bias amongst respondents (which the authors noted), and that behaviour problems are highly subjective.
Indeed, my experience relates quite well to this information. It is unusual for me to call for a progress report to a new adopter without them commenting to some extent about some negative elements of the new dog's behaviour. The usual remark is that everything's great, but... Hell, I've adopted and fostered a fair few rescues in my time, and I moan about small things they do too! However, this does not mean the new owner has any intention of bringing the dog back. They're usually only small problems, but when asked, people will report on them.Should it not seriously reduce such behaviours as is claimed? Your other link notes "Group-I males(early neutered) were judged to be more excitable (P less than 0.02) than group-III males(intact). " Would this "excitability" affect some behaviours in a negative way?
The authors didn't define excitability, I don't think. However, it is one of the most commonly complained about problems that I get called for: happily, it is very easy to sort out.On the fearfulness point one of your other studies shows an increase in noise phobia in neutered dogs. Are there any studies into how fearfulness is reduced in neutered dogs, given it's apparently one of the most common reasons for dogs ending up back in rescues? Is this trait gender/breed based? Does neutering increase, or reduce this behaviour, or does it have any effect at all?
Is it? I'm not sure that's right? It isn't mentioned in the Wells report that I cited. Fearfulness was reported as the most commonly complained-about behavioural problem in newly adopted dog, but critically it is not a reason for owners to hand their dogs back into rescue. Aggression is, according to this report. And, indeed, of all of the dogs rehomed in this survey, only 6.5% were returned.
Fearfulness is probably the most heavily genetically influenced of all the behaviours.. it makes evolutionary sense. I'm not aware of any research suggesting that neutering alters fearfulness (other than one paper on noise phobia). However I am aware of some isolated incidents where the circumstances surrounding having an operation (not specifically being neutered) have caused increased fearfulness: this would be things like the dog having a bad experience at the vets when in for the op.
I actually think that fearful dogs are very unlikely to be sent back to the rescue... they seem to bring out the maternal instinct in even the toughest fella {now that's anecdotal
}
You are considerably more likely to see the bad cases. As you say yourself you're "addressing behavioural problems in HUNDREDS of dogs every year". Behavioural problems where neutering will have some reduction on the behaviour of the (male)dogs in question. However while I fully understand why rescues would neuter for all sorts of reasons, behaviour modifcation/population control(even if that study seems to show not that much of a reduction in the former). I still question the pretty entrenched advice to neuter all dogs as a given, regardless of gender or behaviour status, especially large breeds.
You're slightly misquoting me there. I said:I am citing my experience from handling, training, and addressing behavioural problems in HUNDREDS of dogs every year
I specifically said training and behaviour, because a huge amount of cases I attend to every year are not "behavioural" in the pure sense, but training issues.. or rather, lack of training issues. Of course I, and my peers, will see a lot of "bad" cases, but most of the problems aren't that bad: however, you have to bear in mind that perception of behavioural problems is very subjective. Some owners would have no problem living with behaviours that would drive me mental (and probably vice versa!)
It is also important that owners realise that neutering may reduce certain beahviours, but if the behaviour has been going on a while there is alearned component to it that neutering can't address: that's why engagaing in a behaviour modification programme, in tandem with neutering, is the best advice for certain problems.
I have no issue at all with owners not wanting to neuter their dog, as long as they're responsible about it.
However, every dog a rescue rehomes is (or should be) the responsibility of that rescue for the rest of it's life, and the rescue simply must guard each dog against the worst-case-scenario, that the dog is handed on to someone else who does not conform to the standards of the rescue.
Now, here was me saying I was too busy to get back to this, and look and the bloody length of this reply! I had onyl intended to get back and say I'd bring it up again when I've more time. Bad internet. Bad, bad internet.:o
Must go work!0 -
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hi,
I'm new here and little confused about all the above info, can you just tell my what age to neuter my new male german shepherd pup, he's 12 weeks now. I just want him as a pet and won't be breeding him. I'ii just be doing a few fun dog shows in the summer with the kids.
I'd wait either until he is fully grown or starts causing you problems by keeping him entire - whichever comes first
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