When is it appropriate to take access/guardianship AWAY from a Father?

Graciemight

I will try to keep emotion out of my post but feel free to express any heart ache you may be feeling on this issue as it is a very contentious one.
Basically, we seperated and were getting on fine. We agreed shared access and guardianship. The Judge didn't do anything formal about the access he said as we were amenable to see how it goes, any difficulties to return to court.
There was some unpleasantness afterward but we got sorted out. The baby was spending mon and wed afternoons with his dad, having great fun. If we were in town, I would send a text and get invited over with the baby for coffee and a chat. So most weeks, he would see him probably 5 days out of 7. And I like that.
Then the day arrived 10 weeks ago when I picked up the baby and was told he (Dad) would be away for a couple of weeks from the next day. I thought it was funny he hadn't mentioned it, inconvenient too as I had to notify the childminder and, well, inconsiderate. Fumed a bit, but no harm done really. Except the two weeks came and went and there was no word. A month went by, still nothing. Christmas came and went, still no word.
Until two weeks ago when he told me he was moving house, did I want the baby's stuff? And then he sent me a long email saying that as he can never be a 'proper' Dad, he shouldn't see the baby at all.
At this point, I'm thinking 'fair enough, you are clearly unstable perhaps you staying away would not be a bad idea' - given that he had gone so long without contact when I had never ever obstructed him from seeing that lovely little boy. If he had mentioned his insecurities BEFORE going missing I would have tried to talk him down. But he didn't and now here we are.
Should I ask to be granted sole custody legally or what do people feel is the correct way to handle this?

Moonbeam

Keep account of everything.
Times and dates of phone calls,keep emails,write down when he was missing.
Does he suffer from depression?
Is the child in contact with the rest of her paternal family?

Big Bag of Chips

I wouldn't specifically go about removing everything YET. Just see what happens. This is a fairly new situation for you so don't make any permanent decisions just yet.

To be honest his justification sounds like a pretty feeble cop out to me. Maybe he's just not bothered. Maybe he has a new girlfriend, and the baby is cramping his style. Maybe he's enjoying the single life, and the baby is cramping his style. Maybe he's depressed. Etc etc.

Can you sit and talk to him. Ask him questions. Tell him what you think, and what you are thinking about doing. And see what his reaction to it is.

As things seem to have been fairly informal between you up to this, I don't see any reason YET, to make the removal of rights formal.

silly

Get guardianship taken off him. He clearly has no interest. The last thing you want is to try and find him in a few years when if you want to get a passport or something.

Graciemight

Thanks for the input so far everyone.

His family are in England. I told him I am happy to keep in touch with the baby's paternal grandmother, half-sister etc. I'm hugely in favour of children having contact with both parents. But not if it is on an ad-hoc, unreliable basis.

Things have turned nasty - he is swinging from questioning paternity to texting me asking can he tell people the decision for him to stay away was mutual as he is getting asked 'awkward questions' (!)

I am thinking about the passport situation and that is one of the reasons I need to clarify things permanently.

Rachiee

That's really unfair on you and the baby and must be so hard for you. There is obviously something up with him, I wouldnt go down the legal route yet, its a lot of time and money and it really is his loss at this stage hopefully he will come around.

He's being asked awkward questions !!! he may keep being asked awkward questions if he is willing to abandon his child... definitely don't play into that he needs to take responsibility for the decision he made, sounds like he doesn't want to do that, that's why he's using cop outs like "the child's better off without him" and "it might not even be his"

Hope everything works out for you its a horrible situation

Morag

Get him to put it in writing to you that currently he does not want access, even email will do.
When issues arise which should be decisions made by both of you as per guardianship, write/email to him about them and see if he wants input, if he replies that he does not then you have it all to show to the court if needs be.

Once you have it from him via email/writing that he doesnt want access then I would suggest writing to his parents saying that while he does not wish contact you are happy to keep in touch with them if they wish.

I think it sounds like he has someone new in his life and does not want them knowing he has a child.

Daisy M

Would you consider mediation services? These may help him see his role as a father clearer. His turnabout sounds really strange I would guess at depression or a third party intervening. What is the story with maintainance, does he think not seeing the child will let himoff the hook?

blatantrereg

Dont say it was a mutual decision if it wasn't.
Dont see how removing access would do any favours for the kid.
You can look forward to having an unhappy kid, with anger towards you, if you start things like these.
You've every right to have issues with the father's behaviour. But it's something that has to be separate to your son's access to his father.

Graciemight

I have it in email and multiple texts that he doesn't want to have any further contact with the baby for the baby's 'own good'. He says how heartbreaking it is and he hopes that he will come to know another man 'like a father' who will guide him on the right paths.... it sounds like he has lost the plot to be honest.
What if he changes his mind? This has happened before - after we went to court and agreed shared access. He took him for one weekend, then went weird and said he didn't believe he was the father. I though he was joking. 5 weeks went by and no contact. Then an apology in which he said the only reason he wanted to now get a paternity test was to vindicate me as he felt awful for bad mouthing me to the men in the pub.
I think there is a bad precedent and I'm glad the baby is too young to miss him properly. But let me stress - they really did get on well together when he had the afternoon access up until ten weeks ago.
Again, thanks for the input.

Graciemight

Daisy M wrote: »

Would you consider mediation services? These may help him see his role as a father clearer. His turnabout sounds really strange I would guess at depression or a third party intervening. What is the story with maintainance, does he think not seeing the child will let himoff the hook?

Have asked before about mediation - he didn't see the point. I, however, am glad of the counselling!
As for maintenance, not a shilling has been offered and I hate the thought of asking

Moonbeam

Is it possible that he has met a new woman and she is putting him under pressure?

Graciemight

Moonbeam wrote: »

Is it possible that he has met a new woman and she is putting him under pressure?

That is a possibility alright; if so, shame on that lady but ultimately it is his child and his call I am sure you'll agree!

James Jones

Graciemight wrote: »

Basically, we seperated and were getting on fine. We agreed shared access and guardianship.

If you are married, guardianship cannot be either given or taken away. I'm not sure if you were married or not but the term "separated" normally applied to married parents.

Abi

James Jones wrote: »

If you are married, guardianship cannot be either given or taken away. I'm not sure if you were married or not but the term "separated" normally applied to married parents.

It can be taken away in extreme circumstances.


This however is not one of them. OP, you can't make him have anything to do with the child, though Iam not suggesting you are trying to. It must be very sad and disappointing for you that he doesn't. If he has said this to you on numerous occasions, then there is little you can do, except prepare yourself for a life of single parenting. I suggest you ask him would be be willing to sign away his guardianship so you can get on with things. At this point, I would advise him that you will be taking this very seriously, and will not allow him to dip in and out of the childs life whenever he feels like it.

Children need consistency, a proper arrangement of dual parenting. If this cannot be, the child may grow up to resent him for his Daddy one minute, disappearing act the next.

You're going to have to try hard to set your emotions aside on this one, and do the best for your child, and for yourself.

Graciemight

Abi wrote: »

It can be taken away in extreme circumstances.


This however is not one of them. OP, you can't make him have anything to do with the child, though Iam not suggesting you are trying to....

...Children need consistency, a proper arrangement of dual parenting. If this cannot be, the child may grow up to resent him for his Daddy one minute, disappearing act the next.

Thanks Abi you have hit the nail on the head.

We were not married. He was upset that I broke up with him and doesn't want to be a 'part time dad'.

Can I just say that when we were together he was a lazy so-and-so? That time that he was seeing the baby for a couple of afternoons a week was brilliant, he played with, changed and fed him many more times than when he was living with us. But it was me cajoling initially that made him be with the child. I had just given up when he asked if he could see him. I told him that it seemed like it was more important to ME that he has a relationship with his son. But I gave it another shot and like I said it was going well until 10 weeks ago.

I feel like I should do some damage limitation, before the baby is old enough to know what rejection from his dad feels like. I'm sure on some level he must miss him.

lazygal

Is he paying maintenance even though he's decided to opt out? I'd be making sure he still pays his way.

Abi

Graciemight wrote: »

Thanks Abi you have hit the nail on the head.

We were not married. He was upset that I broke up with him and doesn't want to be a 'part time dad'.

Can I just say that when we were together he was a lazy so-and-so? That time that he was seeing the baby for a couple of afternoons a week was brilliant, he played with, changed and fed him many more times than when he was living with us. But it was me cajoling initially that made him be with the child. I had just given up when he asked if he could see him. I told him that it seemed like it was more important to ME that he has a relationship with his son. But I gave it another shot and like I said it was going well until 10 weeks ago.

I feel like I should do some damage limitation, before the baby is old enough to know what rejection from his dad feels like. I'm sure on some level he must miss him.

And this is why you have to set aside your own disappointment for your son. I suspect like one or two others that there may be another woman in the picture here. Another thing to consider is, rather than imaging a horrible woman trying to stop your ex from seeing his kid, if she does exist, there is also a possibility he mightn't have told her about him. You can suggest things to explore all avenues before you take over full custody, such as mediation etc., and straight out asking him if there is anything or anyone talking him out of his sons life. Whatever the answer is to those questions will be your decider. He's already said several times by text and email etc that he wants nothing to do with your son, so those questions would be his last chance to turn this around in my book.

If he chooses to go ahead with this, than you need everything to be all official, get him to sign over. Don't be afraid of this Janet. You're well able to do this. I know it's tough, but I think it will be in the best interests of both your child and yourself to do something about this situation. A sort of closure on the matter, so you can get on with your lives.

Being a single mum only means that you get to give double the love, and theres loads of support and groups for parents

blatantrereg

He sounds like a nightmare really: Difficult, lazy and neglectful - and more besides. Certainly any adult in your shoes would be better off not having to deal with him at all. A "just stay out of our lives" attitudes would seem like the normal reaction in your shoes. And certainly a proper arrangement of dual parenting and consistency would be better than his flakiness and childish behaviour.

The fact of the matter is that loads of fathers are drop-in and drop-out types as far as their kids go. When it's because their time and focus is taken up too much with work people tend to be more forgiving. As far as the kid's concerned, it's the same thing at the end of the day. Yet most people dont think it's better for the kid if the fathers were cut out of their lives completely somehow.

It's probably not something a lot of single mothers like to face, but unless the father is actively abusive or dangerous, kids are usually going to be a lot better off with their father in their lives. If that's not an option, then that's not an option, but if it is an option, then discarding it is not ideal imo.

Honestly to me it sounds to me like you might be having trouble distinguishing what suits you want from what is best for the kid. That's normal I think if it is the case. It's an emotive issue and it's difficult to be objective in situations like that.

I think you should really think it over and be very sure of your decision and sure of your reasons for your decision before you act too much on this.

You strike me as a proud person, in the positive sense, and I've no doubt that helps you be a good parent. Dont let that pride impinge too much on your decisions with this though. With that in mind, tell him to provide maintenance for his child. It is his responsibility to do so. It wouldn't be a case of you looking for it for yourself in any way. It's his responsibility to his child. If he doesn't respond positively, go to a solicitor. You also might possibly find that his accepting responsibility on that level results in him being more keen to accept it in other senses too.

James Jones

Abi wrote: »

James Jones wrote: »

If you are married, guardianship cannot be either given or taken away. I'm not sure if you were married or not but the term "separated" normally applied to married parents.

It can be taken away in extreme circumstances.

According to Judge Walsh on page 61 of the Supreme Court B. Vs B., “Section 6 of the Act states the equality of the parents and recognises them as the guardians of the infant; there is nothing in any provision of the Act which purports to confer on the court or any other body the power to displace either one or both of the parents from the position of guardian or guardians”.

So no, Guardianship cannot be taken away from a married parent, no matter how extreme the circumstances.
(Sorry if the link is slow to load).

Abi

James Jones wrote: »

According to Judge Walsh on page 61 of the Supreme Court B. Vs B., “Section 6 of the Act states the equality of the parents and recognises them as the guardians of the infant; there is nothing in any provision of the Act which purports to confer on the court or any other body the power to displace either one or both of the parents from the position of guardian or guardians”.

So no, Guardianship cannot be taken away from a married parent, no matter how extreme the circumstances.
(Sorry if the link is slow to load).

I understand what you mean, but I did say extreme circumstances, not willy-nilly warring exes stuff.

James Jones

Abi wrote: »

I understand what you mean, but I did say extreme circumstances, not willy-nilly warring exes stuff.

It doesn't matter how extreme the circumstances.

There is nothing in any provision of the Act which purports to confer on the court or any other body the power to displace either one or both of the parents from the position of guardian or guardians.

blatantrereg

James Jones wrote: »

It doesn't matter how extreme the circumstances.

Of course kids can be taken away in extreme circumstances. Think of social workers being called out and so on.

Abi

blatantrereg wrote: »

Of course kids can be taken away in extreme circumstances. Think of social workers being called out and so on.

This is exactly what I am referring to. If a child is any kind of danger, then yes, the guardianship can be removed.

hurling_lad

Just reading through the thread, it's not clear that the father in this case is a legal guardian to the child - if he isn't, then there really isn't anything to discuss on this score, the key issues would seem to be access (which the father is currently not seeking) and maintenance (which the father should, imo, be pursued for if he has means and a judge would be likely to order him to pay up).

I suppose what I'm saying is that it's not very clear to me what the OP is asking.

Graciemight

hurling_lad wrote: »

Just reading through the thread, it's not clear that the father in this case is a legal guardian to the child - if he isn't, then there really isn't anything to discuss on this score, the key issues would seem to be access (which the father is currently not seeking) and maintenance (which the father should, imo, be pursued for if he has means and a judge would be likely to order him to pay up).

I suppose what I'm saying is that it's not very clear to me what the OP is asking.

Hi there - after we split (feb 2011), we went to court (may 2011) and equal guardianship was granted. We were amicable at the time and said we wished to share custody. No order was made - the judge said more or less to figure it out between us and come back if there was a problem.
So baby stayed with Daddy two wkends later. I was a bit anxious about it because Dad was acting cold towards me. But that was the agreement so I went ahead. It was a disaster. He txted me on the sat morn accusing me of poisoning the baby with exlax or something because he had a very messy nappy. Who would do that? Who would immediately think their ex is responsible if a child has a runny bum? Is there not several more probable causes? I wanted that weekend to go well because if baby + dad are happy that = happy mammy, enjoying a break!
So after that, HE decided he did not want to do ME any favours, told me to sort a childminder out and 'have a nice summer, c***'. And 5 weeks later, when he begged if he could see baby (as if it was me that denied access in the first place) I decided I would rather be stupid than cruel and set up the latest arrangement; 2 afternoons a week plus whenever suited him.
That lasted from August until the first week of November and we haven't seen him since. All of that must sound unbelievable but that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Humans are complicated, unpredictable creatures and there are two sides to every story. Trust me when I say I have bent over backwards - gladly - to assist in the cementing of my son's relationship with his dad and all efforts have failed me.
I have to sort this out one way or another.
Thanks again for all the comments - all views are helpful.

LegacyUser

Hi Op

It's very hard when you are in this situation, you feel caught between a rock and hard place.

IMO, you would probably be best to leave sleeping dogs lie. By the sounds of it, he sounds like my ex with 0 interest in the child. You would be just banging your head head against a brick wall. Hard to get your head around it, isn't it?

I'm in a similar position, my daughter's dad left a year ago (she was 3 at the time) and she has has seen him once. He pays no child maintenance and is also a guardian. At the end of the day, he is still her dad and one day she will want some answers. He is the one who will have to account for his behaviour, not you or I.

The other posters are right, it would only be in very extreme circumstances that guardianship would be taken away. Guardianship dosen't really mean anything to me or my dd, it just means he has a say in her schooling, religion and passport consent (that type of thing) - which he has no interest in. I was worried if anything were to happen to me how would guardianship affect my dd. He would automatically take over as a guardian.

My solicitor advised me to update my will detailing who I would want to look after my daughter and the reasons why. Ex lives in the UK, so all daughter knows is Ireland, her family, friends, local community, school etc, things she is familiar with.

I know it's frustrating and you can't understand how a parent abandon's a child, but rather than tormenting yourself, it's best to make a life for just you and your child. He will come knocking on your door one day, when his conscience has caught up with him.

I wish you well op

ismisebridget

I hate to be judgemental but from everything you have told us Gracie that man is not a true father. A real dad would put his issues with you to one side and bend over backwards to see his helpless little son. To say he does not want to be a part-time dad....what a cop out! He should cherish every second and stop acting like a spoiled child, he needs to grow up!

THERE IS NO EXCUSE for what he has done/is doing. Make him pay financially, take him to court if necessary. He cannot be allowed to make a baby then walk away like he is strolling away from a packet of crisps. He is either mentally unwell or the most selfish, immature cruel father around- thank God your baby has at least one parent who loves him and supports him, ultimately one good parent is all you need (two would be better of course but trust me not everyone can have that).

Good luck Gracie!!! Keep doing your best to protect and love your son, you are not responsible for what your ex chooses to do (or not do) and one day your son will know that too.

Graciemight

I feel I must apologise for whining because lets be honest folks some of what I said is not cool calm and collected which is what I intended. But discussing this here has been enormously beneficial because the feedback has been really supportive - thank you - and there has been lots of level headed advice - thanks again.

It seems the negative feedback from my ex's friends and his grown up daughter has begun to get to him. I received a txt saying he wants to see the baby. I have an appointment with a solicitor so I will lay out the history to him and see what is to be done for the best. The (even more so) complicated thing is that my ex is being far from diplomatic about expressing his new wishes. It's like he is deliberately making it difficult for me to say 'Hey, that's brilliant! You want to see him? Put the kettle on and we will be round in ten minutes!'

I don't want to be a boor and clog this thread with my issue. Happy to leave it open and keep ye posted - it's easy to blither on and also others can use this thread for their issues. Lots of guys have kids and the mammy cuts her nose off to spite her face and won't let them see each other. And other guys walk away. But I'm sure about one thing - a problem shared is a problem halved!

shazj

James Jones wrote: »

If you are married, guardianship cannot be either given or taken away. I'm not sure if you were married or not but the term "separated" normally applied to married parents.

in my experience you cannot remove guardianship and he will be able to waltz back in and get acces to your child whenever he feels like it, even years down the road, sorry to have to tell you

shazj

Graciemight wrote: »

Thanks for the input so far everyone.

His family are in England. I told him I am happy to keep in touch with the baby's paternal grandmother, half-sister etc. I'm hugely in favour of children having contact with both parents. But not if it is on an ad-hoc, unreliable basis.

Things have turned nasty - he is swinging from questioning paternity to texting me asking can he tell people the decision for him to stay away was mutual as he is getting asked 'awkward questions' (!)

I am thinking about the passport situation and that is one of the reasons I need to clarify things permanently.

if you need a passport go to your solicitor and sign an afidavid to say you are sole guardian, cost about 20 quid, it will get you a passport but will not remove any of his rights, he will however have to take you to court to gain access if you don't come to an arrangement between yourselves. good luck x

Orion

shazj wrote: »

if you need a passport go to your solicitor and sign an afidavid to say you are sole guardian, cost about 20 quid, it will get you a passport but will not remove any of his rights, he will however have to take you to court to gain access if you don't come to an arrangement between yourselves. good luck x

Access and guardianship are not related - you can have either without the other.

What you are advocating is perjury - swearing an affidavit to something that is not true is illegal. Bear this in mind before posting again.