Irish times today !!! - interview with Martin Fagan

thirstywork2

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0116/1224310309138.html

donothoponpop

Very revealing article. He blames depression and financial worries leading him to take EPO (once). That last mile-collapse in Chicago marathon seems to have been the straw that broke the camels back. Hold's his hands up about his actions. Very hard not to feel sympathy with him.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

rovers_runner

Complete cop out IMHO, what about the dozens of other Irish athletes who bend over backwards to get by? <Snip>
It's clear as day everyone was onto him and someone was tipped off about his plans.


The potentially revealing paragraph was left unexplained further on in the piece:

....What he didn’t know, or at least expect, was the Irish Sports Council’s anti-doping unit had been watching him: Fagan had missed a doping test back in 2007 (for some “silly” reason), then last summer received an e-mail saying he needed to update his “whereabouts” more regularly, that if he wasn’t careful he could lose his grant: “And I wasn’t even getting a grant, so I was pretty angry about that.”.....

thirtyfoot

I do feel sorry for him now but he must still serve his time and he will and he is saying he will.

The things that people have been critical of Fagan in the past (including myself) seem to have been the problem. He seemed more focused on making $$ than chasing medals. He lost his grant (rightly so) as he failed to perform at the champs. If he was clever and his support had been clever he could have focused on a Euro champs (track or cross) and won one, done a Fionnuala. With that could have come acclaim and resources. Greater sponsorship, a certain grant. He choose to run the race circuit. He essentially left the system, cut himself off. He was poorly advised I would say.

I would love to see him stay at home now. Bear in mind Mark Kenneally got the standard that Fagan was chasing while training in Ireland and starting up a business and for a time without a grant. There can be a happy end to this story and if he did turn it around it would be great.

drquirky

Like a few have said in the other thread- nobody died. In fact no one was even hurt by this except Fagan himself. Its a sad story and I feel bad for him- depression is no joke and I hope he sorts it out...

thirtyfoot

drquirky wrote: »

Like a few have said in the other thread- nobody died. In fact no one was even hurt by this except Fagan himself.

Not true. The sport in Ireland has been massively hurt and affected by this. More reason for people to be not interested in it.

jimbobaloobob

I agree with the sympathy sentiment.
Athletes of all sports are under huge pressures to achieve, failure has a negative career significance.
From the outside looking in its easy to discard his explanation if you want, but looking at all those who cowardly denied A samples and B samples for years on years i admire his honesty to come clean.

I hope he can deal with his demons and is not plagued by our emerging irish paparatzi.

ss43

rovers_runner wrote: »

Complete cop out IMHO, what about the dozens of other Irish athletes who bend over backwards to get by? Depression, yawn.
It's clear as day everyone was onto him and someone was tipped off about his plans.


The potentially revealing paragraph was left unexplained further on in the piece:

....What he didn’t know, or at least expect, was the Irish Sports Council’s anti-doping unit had been watching him: Fagan had missed a doping test back in 2007 (for some “silly” reason), then last summer received an e-mail saying he needed to update his “whereabouts” more regularly, that if he wasn’t careful he could lose his grant: “And I wasn’t even getting a grant, so I was pretty angry about that.”.....

The article did seem to just accept Fagan's version of events. It could just be convenient way of generating some sympathy.

Did people here worry about the state of mind of Rachid Ramzi, Steve Mullings, Justin Gatlin, Mohammed Mourhit or Ben Johnson?

Lots of people take drugs. Lots of them, when caught, come up with some story to put themselves out there as the victim? Why not just have a general 'I feel sorry for all those poor athletes who decide to break the rules for their own personal gain' mindset.

Seres

He is a professional athlete but he is also a son and a brother . This is terrible for his professional life and athletes as a whole but for him personally it might be his saving grace . Too many times we hear of the unexplained tragic suicides of athletes , he must be penalised but i hope this scandal helps him confront and beat his mental health issues .

tunney

If I was a depression sufferer I'd be raging at him, many many people suffer from depression and do not abandon their moral compass.

average_runner

I kinda feel sorry for him, as I always got the impression that the running public in Ireland put him under severe pressure.

Alot of people on boards before this incident occured thought the sun shined out of his arse and he was the best thing since slice bread.


When fagan runs there is loads of pages written about him here, but yet we have an Irish female European XC champion and not much talked about here.

I remember saying on here he is not that good and got slated. He is a good runner but nothing special when it comes to representing his country or producing it on the big day.

I hope this incident will relax the lad, now take all the pressure off him and he can come back in two years a better runner and in a better place for it.

Depression is a terrible thing so i hope he recovers from it.

MrCreosote

Great interview.

I wouldn't say I feel sorry for him getting caught doping, but how hard must it be dealing with a promising career going down the tubes? Anyone who says they wouldn't be tempted in the same circumstances is talking rubbish.

Seres

ss43 wrote: »

The article did seem to just accept Fagan's version of events. It could just be convenient way of generating some sympathy.

Did people here worry about the state of mind of Rachid Ramzi, Steve Mullings, Justin Gatlin, Mohammed Mourhit or Ben Johnson?

Lots of people take drugs. Lots of them, when caught, come up with some story to put themselves out there as the victim? Why not just have a general 'I feel sorry for all those poor athletes who decide to break the rules for their own personal gain' mindset.

Besides a bit of sympathy what is the real gain in it for him ?! . He is still gonna get the ban . Being that honest about where you are at mentally is not an easy thing . There is an awful lot of stigma attached to depression and mental health so the consequences of his honesty is that he will have to deal with that now too .

Woddle

tunney wrote: »

If I was a depression sufferer I'd be raging at him, many many people suffer from depression and do not abandon their moral compass.

I didn't realise there's an expected response to how depression effects one.

DogSlySmile

rovers_runner wrote: »

Complete cop out IMHO... <Snip>

Yeah, mental health... what a joke...:rolleyes:

RR, try saying that on any of the many Irish depression/mental health forums, lets see what kind of a reaction you get...

TheRoadRunner

Read that article and I believe what he has said. Obviously some won't but that's going to differ depending on the person I hope he gets his mental health sorted and would love for him to get back into the sport in some way (if he wishes to) once he has served his ban.

ss43 wrote: »

Did people here worry about the state of mind of Rachid Ramzi, Steve Mullings, Justin Gatlin, Mohammed Mourhit or Ben Johnson?

The above point is very valid. There seemed to a bit of hypocrisy on the other thread. Fagan's friends were defending his actions and if he were my friend I'd probably do the same.

However
- If you deem drug cheats as scumbags who should be banned for life than fair enough.
- If you feel that drug cheats are robbing people of medals/qualification places than fair enough.
- If you refuse to acknowledge a drug cheat when he/she is in your presence then fair enough

but next time remember they may have a human story to tell as well. You can't have it every way!

average_runner

Woddle wrote: »

I didn't realise there's an expected response to how depression effects one.

Depression effects everyone in different ways, some people actually end their live because of it and other people can handle other ways

There is no easy for some one to actually deal with it. Just hope he learns how to cope with it and manages it now. Its better its known now he suffers from it so people can help him instead of him bottling it and something worst happen.

Bella mamma

thirstywork2 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0116/1224310309138.html

This is the 2nd related article in The IT
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0116/1224310310398.html?via=rel

dedon

Mod: Sock puppet account for NickDrake. Permanent ban

rovers_runner

DogSlySmile wrote: »

Yeah, mental health... what a joke...:rolleyes:

RR, try saying that on any of the many Irish depression/mental health forums, lets see what kind of a reaction you get...

In this context, yes it is a joke.
He did the crime, was caught and then chose to have an "On mature reflection..." moment.

He was conveniently caught 24hrs after his "first use" of a banned substance.
We've all seen people in all walks of life break the law/rules across many mediums and then blame their mental health to soften the punishment, a load of rubbish.

downthemiddle

Having read the article I feel the need to distinguish between the athlete and the person.
From an athletics point of view I have absolutely no sympathy for Martin Fagan. As thirtyfoot said he isolated himself from the support systems available and was very poorly advised. There are parts of his story which I find barely credible. To be tested on the day he first used EPO is all too convenient. Nobody knew what he was doing, he doesn't know anybody else who is doping and he ordered it over the internet. There is also the issue of a previous missed test for a "silly" reason.Too much of this story just doesn't add up. He has caused huge damage to the sport in Ireland and I believe that in getting a two year ban he is getting off lightly.
However I do have sympathy for Martin Fagan the person. He has thrown away something he has devoted his life to. In retrospect that may be no bad thing and he may find himself in a better place without the disappointments athletics has brought him. As an individual he will need the support of the people who were there for him on the way up. I believe that the support of his friends and family in Mullingar is essential in the rehabilitation that he requires. I hope that people who know him are prepared to pick up the phone and support him as his friend despite what they might think of his actions.
Martin Fagan has made some very poor choices in his life culminating in dragging Irish athletics into disrepute. I hope he finds the strength to deal with this and that free from the burden athletics had become can be at peace with himself.

broders3

Would tend to agree with Dedon that this sounds a little like a pre-emptive strike by him and have a hard time believing he is a virgin doper.

Just to clear one thing up about his financial situation, it does say in the article that Visa issues prevented him from taking on work to supplement his income.

Tombo2000

thirtyfoot wrote: »

Not true. The sport in Ireland has been massively hurt and affected by this. More reason for people to be not interested in it.

How do you make that out?

Massively hurt......I think thats overegging it a bit. There are probably 100 gaelic footballers and hurlers who are better known in the country than him. It will hardly register with people not in the sport and people in the sport already know that some athletes take drugs. One of them is Irish....shock horror not really....

Plus the fact that he is US based......if it was someone who was here full time running races in the local circuit and active in a local club i might see it differently.....

Its a bad story for the athlete.....but massive damage to athletics in Ireland?

Liamo08

broders3 wrote: »

Would tend to agree with Dedon that this sounds a little like a pre-emptive strike by him and have a hard time believing he is a virgin doper.

Just to clear one thing up about his financial situation, it does say in the article that Visa issues prevented him from taking on work to supplement his income.

Very difficult to prove that it was his first time, but if he was taking EPO continually the way it's described in the article for the last few years he'd have been caught long ago.

BTH

rovers_runner wrote: »

Complete cop out IMHO, what about the dozens of other Irish athletes who bend over backwards to get by? <snip>

You sir are a disgrace.

nerraw1111

To er is to human, to forgive, divine.

Ultimately, forgetting all the theories, the wrongs and rights, blame etc, it's just a very sad story. He's only cheated himself. Years of hard work all down the drain, that's the biggest punishment. I'd like to think that will matter more than any two year ban or the court of public opinion.

I wish people would read the articles in full before asking why he didn't get a job like anyone else.

The answer is right there.

He’d moved to the high-altitude training base in Flagstaff, Arizona, in 2007, but because of visa issues wasn’t able to work to supplement whatever small grant aid or sponsorship was out there. So he fell further into debt, going back to college days in Providence, as he’d been effectively borrowing for everything, his apartment, his car, food.

Depression is no joke. It's hard enough to get people to talk about their mental health without people saying 'yawn' at the mention of the word.

All that said, there are some more questions to be asked, like did AAI suspect him given the timing of the test. I'd like to see someone like Paul Kimmage interview him, tease out all the details.

rovers_runner

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

You sir are a disgrace.

Did you read my post fully?
Do you think it's ok for people who get caught out breaking the rules to blame depression and think it will excuse their actions?

How am I a disgrace for dismissing his explaination as an excuse?

jlang

thirstywork2 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0116/1224310309138.html

The first "Ads by Google" under the article is for EPO boost to improve your endurance! Or does Google think that's what I need?

too much trifle

sort of related,
what finishing positions in a marathon are compulsory drug tested after the race?

macinalli

rovers_runner wrote: »

Did you read my post fully?
Do you think it's ok for people who get caught out breaking the rules to blame depression and think it will excuse their actions?

How am I a disgrace for dismissing his explaination as an excuse?

The problem isn't your attitude towards Fagan - it's your attiutude towards depression

Bella mamma

rovers_runner wrote: »

Complete cop out IMHO, what about the dozens of other Irish athletes who bend over backwards to get by? Depression, yawn.
It's clear as day everyone was onto him and someone was tipped off about his plans.


The potentially revealing paragraph was left unexplained further on in the piece:

....What he didn’t know, or at least expect, was the Irish Sports Council’s anti-doping unit had been watching him: Fagan had missed a doping test back in 2007 (for some “silly” reason), then last summer received an e-mail saying he needed to update his “whereabouts” more regularly, that if he wasn’t careful he could lose his grant: “And I wasn’t even getting a grant, so I was pretty angry about that.”.....

If the guys says he was "severely depressed" and "contemplating suicide", he was severely depressed and contempleting suicide. It's astonishing that is, in your words, "a complete cop out". "Depression. Yawn"???

Darren Sutherland.

tunney

too much trifle wrote: »

sort of related,
what finishing positions in a marathon are compulsory drug tested after the race?

In competition testing is useless

G-Money

Is it really the end of his running career? He's only 28 and if he serves a 2 year ban, isn't he allowed to compete then after its over? I'm not sure of the rules to be honest.

Perhaps in a way it's a good thing for him himself. He will get a ban and can use that time to get his head straight and whatever professional help he needs.

shotgunmcos

Good candid interview. Fear can take your life if you succumb to it blindly. But to 'go there' and face it in a self aware state and ready to face the consequences could be the discovery that saves your life. It just shows he is human. People make mistakes. Some more high profile than others. Its how he grows from this that matters. That interview took some courage IMO

nerraw1111

rovers_runner wrote: »

Did you read my post fully?
Do you think it's ok for people who get caught out breaking the rules to blame depression and think it will excuse their actions?

How am I a disgrace for dismissing his explaination as an excuse?

The problem was your reaction was 'yawn' followed by your assumption that he thinks it will excuse his actions. That's sheer conjecture. He never said "I only took EPO because I was depressed." He offered a full confession, explained, most likely after he was asked, his personal health and financial situations.

Huge difference between setting out the conditions in which he took EPO versus offering said conditions as an excuse.

You should never greet the news that someone may have depression with 'yawn' regardless whether you believe it or not. If its true, you'll come across as an asshole and possibly make the situation worse. If it's false, then be content that you don't believe them but kept it yourself.

BTH

macinalli wrote: »

The problem isn't your attitude towards Fagan - it's your attiutude towards depression

RR, you may as well tell every depression sufferer to HTFU.

longjump67

Compare the article below to Fagan and tell me that if your mindset is right you can overcome any setback, we could all that a leaf outta this young mans life.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/living-the-impossible-dream-2989346.html

rovers_runner

nerraw1111 wrote: »

The problem was your reaction was 'yawn' followed by your assumption that he thinks it will excuse his actions. That's sheer conjecture. He never said "I only took EPO because I was depressed." He offered a full confession, explained, most likely after he was asked, his personal health and financial situations.

Huge difference between setting out the conditions in which he took EPO versus offering said conditions as an excuse.

You should never greet the news that someone may have depression with 'yawn' regardless whether you believe it or not. If its true, you'll come across as an asshole and possibly make the situation worse. If it's false, then be content that you don't believe them but kept it yourself.

It's not my problem that you can't understand my reasoning.
I am of the opinion that Fagan has used depression as an excuse for getting caught cheating, he may not have, just my opinion.
I won't lose any sleep over it, try not to yourself.

mrak

dedon wrote: »

There are a number of issues here.

1 – If he was so short of cash why didn’t he just get a job like everyone else – As the OP said Mark Kennelly got the standard while running his own business. Really showing he is a better talent, a clean athlete and didn’t need drugs.

I seem to recall that he was resident in the states on a sports visa - which has a restriction that you can't get a job. He used to work in a coffee shop but had to give it up for that reason I think..

dedon wrote: »

4- He should be banned for life and not the pathetic two years. If only there was an option for this.

Wouldn't agree there, at 28, two years is a long time so not sure it makes that much difference.

I was shocked and gutted over the whole thing. I hope the story is true and that it was his one and only use and that all his races were run "clean", but it's something we will never know for sure :-(

Dodge

I'll preface my comments by saying Depression is far, far too big a problme in society for people to not take it seriously. In football recently two relatively high profile people have attempted suicice (one, unfotunately, succeeded). In no way am I trying to suggest there is anything wrong with someone who suffers from depression, and I think they should receive whatever help is neccesary.

However, because most people feel like I do, it can lead to a pretty convenient excuse for an athlete if caught cheating. I don't know Fagan, or anything about being a top level athlete so I obviously can't state with any certainty one way or the other. I just don't like the idea that he would use such a series issue as depression as a cover (and I believe lots of people are capable of this).

The pretty pointed nature of his monitoring by the Drugs testers indicates that it may have been going on for a while.

Reagrdless, I hope Fagan is banned for life (as I do all sportsmen/women who take performance enhances) and receives whatever counselliing help he needs to assimilate into 'normal' life.

too much trifle

also thought the interview was very poor,
presumably to get an interview that soon after the event,
promises are made not to ask searching questions,

also with hindsight, now excuse my ignorance, if the 1st 10 places of a are marathon are compulsory tested (?)
taking a detectable drug during a race to gain an olympic qualification time may be a risk worth taking if you believe you still wont finsh within the tested positions.
suddenly you find yourself with a decent time & with in the tested positions,
what are your options,
finish the race and risk being tested or drop out & blame "the heat"

Krusty_Clown

too much trifle wrote: »

also with hindsight, now excuse my ignorance, if the 1st 10 places of a are marathon are compulsory tested (?)
taking a detectable drug during a race to gain an olympic qualification time may be a risk worth taking if you believe you still wont finsh within the tested positions.
suddenly you find yourself with a decent time & with in the tested positions,
what are your options,
finish the race and risk being tested or drop out & blame "the heat"

I don't know much about such things, but presumably you would take this kind of drug during training, in the hope of boosting your training, rather than boosting your performance during a race. So come race-time, you have no traces of the drug in your system, but you still reap the benefits of all that training.

Fagan would have known exactly what pace/position he was going to finish in, in Chicago, so dropping out at 41km, isn't really a likely scenario. Olympic marathon qualification time in Chicago would almost always have you in the top 10.

Bella mamma

rovers_runner wrote: »

It's not my problem that you can't understand my reasoning.
I am of the opinion that Fagan has used depression as an excuse for getting caught cheating, he may not have, just my opinion.
I won't lose any sleep over it, try not to yourself.

Oh so you do understand that understanding reasoning and losing sleep are depression related. Phew!

I'd never have used depression as an excuse myself. It's way too painful. Gimme 4 broken limbs any day.

jeffontour

There's a bigger issue here than the loss to Irish Athletics. It's his health. He'll be banned so he'll pay the price in terms of his athletics.

The important thing now is he gets the support and advice to help him get out the other side of what appears to be a bad situation. Being back home will hopefully make that easier.

T runner

rovers_runner wrote: »

It's not my problem that you can't understand my reasoning.
I am of the opinion that Fagan has used depression as an excuse for getting caught cheating, he may not have, just my opinion.
I won't lose any sleep over it, try not to yourself.

Im afraid the actions closely fit the irrationality of mental illness. His EPO taking was so naieve as to make it almost a given certainty that he would be caught. How can you explain this?

He is also been on medication for depression. Running is often prescribed for people to combat depression.

He made little effort to ensure the success of this cheating. Surely, someone who rationally plans and sets about to take EPO for the sole purpose of fooling people for greedy personal gain will actually make rational attempts to fool them. There was absolutely nothing rational about his attempts. Can you explain why his attempts were so naieve? That unless he is incredibly stupid (hes not apparently) that he must have known hed be caught? Doesnt it not look like he didnt give any consideration to the effective evading of detection part vital to the success of his deception? I think it ties in with the irrational actions of someone with severe depression.

You are entitled to your opinion Rovers but you do need to substantiate your opinion especially when your are defining the life of Martin Fagan or anyone as "cheater". I think thats only fair.

rovers_runner

T runner wrote: »

Im afraid the actions closely fit the irrationality of mental illness. His EPO taking was so naieve as to make it almost a given certainty that he would be caught. How can you explain this?

He is also been on medication for depression. Running is often prescribed for people to combat depression.

He made little effort to ensure the success of this cheating. Surely, someone who rationally plans and sets about to take EPO for the sole purpose of fooling people for greedy personal gain will actually make rational attempts to fool them. There was absolutely nothing rational about his attempts. Can you explain why his attempts were so naieve? That unless he is incredibly stupid (hes not apparently) that he must have known hed be caught? Doesnt it not look like he didnt give any consideration to the effective evading of detection part vital to the success of his deception? I think it ties in with the irrational actions of someone with severe depression.

You are entitled to your opinion Rovers but you do need to substantiate your opinion especially when your are defining the life of Martin Fagan or anyone as "cheater". I think thats only fair.

T Runner, I would agree that his actions were irrational to the point that this drug was easily traceable.

However, why would he return to the US to take the drugs without having a plan in mind as to maximise the benefit of these drugs ? (was his training not based in Europe at this time?)
Why were there no details given of a missed drugs test in 2007 (Authorities would have to answer for this too?)
Would someone suffering from mental illness long term be able to train sufficiently both mentally and physically to perform at the standard he did in Chicago?

shels4ever

rovers_runner wrote: »

In this context, yes it is a joke.
He did the crime, was caught and then chose to have an "On mature reflection..." moment.

He was conveniently caught 24hrs after his "first use" of a banned substance.
We've all seen people in all walks of life break the law/rules across many mediums and then blame their mental health to soften the punishment, a load of rubbish.

I don't think I seen anything he said was looking for that, he has not asked the b sample to be tested, and will take the full ban .

thirtyfoot

Tombo2000 wrote: »

Massively hurt......I think thats overegging it a bit. There are probably 100 gaelic footballers and hurlers who are better known in the country than him. ?

Exactly and why are these amateurs who when it comes to talent and performance on a global stage wouldn't hold a candle to Fagan more known than him? Because of the state of athletics generally due to the horrendous past and reputation it has for drugs. People don't care much for the sport as a result, this is another reason to not care and not trust it.

Tombo2000 wrote: »

but massive damage to athletics in Ireland?

On the following levels:

• The casual sports fan as I have pointed out will care even less for the sport
• Will parents be happy putting their kids into a sport thats seen to be about drugs
• Will sponsors sponsor a sport or an athlete who could be dirty
• Will media invest in a sport or athlete who may be dirty
• There will be doubts and attention brought on all our other clean athletes

Its front page of the Times. Its been on the news (TV and Radio - although Ava H did get a mention on Six-One yesterday), people are talking about it in my workplace. Most people didn't know who he was (20 years ago they would have known one of our top athletes) but they see that yet another athlete has failed a drug test.

In the reducing space that athletics holds in the Irish sports head space, this is bad, bad news. There are many good stories. As my hero Mad Len says, good stories don't sell, bad ones do. Instead of focus on our 13th qualifier for London, the media are focusing on this.

jeffontour

rovers_runner wrote: »

Would someone suffering from mental illness long term be able to train sufficiently both mentally and physically to perform at the standard he did in Chicago?

In my opinion, yes.

Mental illness is like any other illness. People can hide it, they can struggle on with it, they can and very often do suffer in isolation until they crack.

We will never know the extent of his problems I'd guess and far be it from me or anyone else to question the extent of his illness.

myflipflops

It's interesting that a lot of his peers and competitors in Irish distance running have been rallying around him.

Keith Kelly (obviously), Vinny Mulvey, Joe Sweeney, Tom Chamney among others have all been out in support of him. Not supporting, condoning or excusing the EPO use but supporting the man.

They know him well and some of them potentially had lots to lose by the situation. Guys who have raced him many, many times believe what he is saying.

Liamo08

rovers_runner wrote: »

T Runner, I would agree that his actions were irrational to the point that this drug was easily traceable.

However, why would he return to the US to take the drugs without having a plan in mind as to maximise the benefit of these drugs ? (was his training not based in Europe at this time?)
Why were there no details given of a missed drugs test in 2007 (Authorities would have to answer for this too?)
Would someone suffering from mental illness long term be able to train sufficiently both mentally and physically to perform at the standard he did in Chicago?

He was training in the US all the time.

From your posts you seem to be suggesting that he could have been taking EPO in this way for a considerable period of time, how do you think that he managed not to test positive until now if that's the case? It's not like he was micro-dosing or blood doping, there's a very simple test for catching someone who is taking EPO as has been described in the interview.