Mens Shed for Greystones

Tiradon

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

I am still annoyed about comments that were made about how women and children should not be down at the harbour (or some similar nonsense) and this "call for men" has rightly got my back up and I totally oppose it.

I completely agree that such a comment re: the harbour is completely unacceptable and should not be condoned but the whole harbour issue is separate to this. I don't believe the initiative being suggested on this thread is a "call to men". I believe it's merely an idea to provide a forum or an outlet for men to utilise should they see fit.

The beauty of forums like boards.ie is that they allow people to express opinions on certain issues but that's just what they are, opinions, so while this initiative has "got your back up", that's a matter of opinion rather than fact so I think to say "rightly got your back up" might br a bit extreme.

pixbyjohn

BarryAlistair wrote: »

so in an effort to make a Greystone's Men's Shed a reality, I asked Ciaran Hayden if he might help.

BArry

This part of the original post may be the cause why so many posters are against the idea of a mens shed..... me thinks.
I am neither for or against the idea of a mens shed.

Annasopra

edit; taken out of context

Tiradon

mango salsa wrote: »

Sorry - what comments? - I haven't seen any of these comments at all

Sorry, meant to say if such a comment was made.

Annasopra

dudmis wrote: »

I agree totally - I would love this see this too.

But can't we have both? Having a Men's Shed doesn't mean that a youth project isn't possible.

I think the Greystones peoples project might have some sort of youth element

Cheeky Chops

I have never heard of that Mango.

The Greystones School Project is wonderful but is only for 2 weeks in the summer. Very inclusive and heartwarming to see the older teens and parents volunteering their time. Anyway I'm off to my shed

BarryAlistair

There's some great debate on the Men's Shed concept.

You know, what really interested me about Men's Shed are the health benefits of such a club. I, like probably everyone who has posted in this thread, have had to deal with the fallout of suicide on far too many occasions in the last 3-4 years. Mainly, although not exclusively, men's suicide.

So my interest in Men's Shed is nothing to do with equality etc etc. but rather creating an environment where men could come and feel comfortable in talking about their problems, challenges and pressures.

If you think this is a **** idea because it excludes women, I suggest you go tell that to all the mothers, wives, girlfriends, sisters, daughters and nieces of those men who haven't been able to hack the pressure that has fallen on them in recent times. I'm pretty confident they wouldn't have had a problem with such a place if it meant their loved ones were still with them.

I'm a little disappointed that the thread has become about gender because it would seem that not too many people have looked at the Men's Shed website to understand why it's a Men's Shed, and not a Unisex Shed.

http://www.menssheds.ie/about-us/

Best
BArry

Cheeky Chops

The suicide rate amongst young and middle aged men is horrifying. Every study has shown that men do not communicate mental health problems with other men. No male only groups have ever shown results of reducing suicide rates.

Are you a professional in the field because if you are I am dismayed at your comments. I find your approach endorses the "man alone" with no one to speak to.

Research has shown that a more integrated approach is much more productive. That means more lives saved going forward.

BarryAlistair

No, I'm not a professional in the field of mental health. Although I have spoken to professionals on this concept and every one of them viewed it positively. That of course is not to say that every professional, like you for example, (given your speed of reply quoting generalised facts I'm assuming you are), would say the same.

BarryAlistair

And again, please read the Men's Shed website, and men's health and wellbeing. I use suicide because it is a factor that has affect me.

Annasopra

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

The suicide rate amongst young and middle aged men is horrifying. Every study has shown that men do not communicate mental health problems with other men. No male only groups have ever shown results of reducing suicide rates.

Are you a professional in the field because if you are I am dismayed at your comments. I find your approach endorses the "man alone" with no one to speak to.

Research has shown that a more integrated approach is much more productive. That means more lives saved going forward.

I'm not sure how you deduce that Barry is suggesting a "man alone" approach at all - he is suggesting the exact opposite - something that encourages communication between men and intergenerational solidarity.

dudmis

Sorry for posting reams of text but I got the following para from the Irish National Men’s Health Policy:

Internationally, there is a scarcity of evaluated health promotion programmes that target men. A good example of one such evaluation is that of the ‘Alive and Well’, Suicide Awareness Programme, run in the Wheatbelt of Western Australia. The key factors underpinning the success of this programme include using a community-based approach that targeted men where they gathered and the use of a variety of strategies that included presentations, training and on-site counselling.

‘Men’s Sheds’ organisations in southern Australia are another good example of community-based health promotion targeting men. Since the mid-1990s, 192 of these organizations have been established, engaging mostly with older men who are no longer working in paid employment and who have proved difficult to engage in conventional health, education and training initiatives. Through the provision of ‘mateship’ and a sense of belonging through positive and therapeutic informal activities, ‘Men’s Sheds’ achieve outcomes of positive health, happiness and well-being for those men who participate, as well as for their partners, families and communities.

Cheeky Chops

BarryAlistair wrote: »

And again, please read the Men's Shed website, and men's health and wellbeing. I use suicide because it is a factor that has affect me.

I'm sorry it has affected you personally .. that is something I would not wish on anyone. On a professional level encouraging male only groups with our kids is not healthy and not sensible. Boys do not chat about feelings. With girls involved they may. This shed idea goes against any research done on how to deal with teen males. Interaction is key.

Annasopra

pixbyjohn wrote: »

This part of the original post may be the cause why so many posters are against the idea of a mens shed..... me thinks.
I am neither for or against the idea of a mens shed.

Please be careful with comments like this and do not leave boards.ie open to a legal action. Any problems - send me a pm

darter

mikedragon32 wrote: »

This topic was done on The Last Word on Today FM some time ago where the founder of Men's Sheds was talking with Matt Cooper.

The idea is a sound one. In this day and age there is often little time for men to learn the skills of DIY or even have somewhere to discuss things in a men-only environment such as men's health. Having a place where a group of men can take on projects, learn skills and interact is not a bad thing.

As for the posters equating this to the dark ages (or 1990 in Switzerland), I find it somewhat baffling. What is wrong with a men only initiative. Women have plenty of gender specific clubs/societies/activities from which men are excluded. Can't men just have one thing for themselves?

It's not like you have to join it! (I won't be... but can't see why the option shouldn't be there)

The idea is NOT a sound one mikedragon32, and pontificating doesn't make it sound. What is wrong with young women learning DIY? It's as likely as not that women have to fix up their homes. What's wrong with young men and young women learning DIY AT THE SAME TIME IN THE SAME PLACE?

Having a place where a group of PEOPLE can take on projects, learn skills and interact is a very good thing.

The reason there are women-only initiatives is entirely to do with intimidation they feel in the presence of men. If men ever grow up and truely treat women as equals, there wouldn't be a need for such initiatives, apart from those based on medical differences that is.

Anyway, as you say, there won't be the obligation to join. My points are that this initiative should not receive public funding, and it is not a milieu that presents role models for the young men of today. It is an anachronism.

Charlie-Bravo

I also will not be looking to join this. I do however have an issue with if they get public funding when they can't supply new playground equipment or replace the kid's roundabout in the Charlesland playground due to 'lack of funds'. I'm repeatng myself I know.

darter

dudmis wrote: »

Sorry for posting reams of text but I got the following para from the Irish National Men’s Health Policy:

Internationally, there is a scarcity of evaluated health promotion programmes that target men. A good example of one such evaluation is that of the ‘Alive and Well’, Suicide Awareness Programme, run in the Wheatbelt of Western Australia. The key factors underpinning the success of this programme include using a community-based approach that targeted men where they gathered and the use of a variety of strategies that included presentations, training and on-site counselling.

‘Men’s Sheds’ organisations in southern Australia are another good example of community-based health promotion targeting men. Since the mid-1990s, 192 of these organizations have been established, engaging mostly with older men who are no longer working in paid employment and who have proved difficult to engage in conventional health, education and training initiatives. Through the provision of ‘mateship’ and a sense of belonging through positive and therapeutic informal activities, ‘Men’s Sheds’ achieve outcomes of positive health, happiness and well-being for those men who participate, as well as for their partners, families and communities.

I don't know why you keep referring to Australian experiences. OK, Australia is a developed country on a par with Ireland, but although it has a very high HDI (human development index) ranking (2nd), its gender equality ranking is 18th!
http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2011_EN_Table4.pdf

Mind you, Ireland's gender equality ranking is 33rd, for a HDI ranking of 7th. The equality of females is not on par with the human development of the country, and that is reflected in the comments we are seeing from those who consider themselves enlightened.

Do we really want to mimic a country with such a poor gender equality ranking? Why not aim for Sweden (1st) or the Netherlands (2nd)? How many Mens Sheds or Mens Shed like movements are there in Sweden, Netherlands, Denmark, Switzerland, etc. etc. ?

BarryAlistair

Oh, you mean Australia's only 18th. As in 18th out of the "173" countries in the table?

darter

BarryAlistair wrote: »

Oh, you mean Australia's only 18th. As in 18th out of the "173" countries in the table?

Exactly Barry. 18th, but with a HDI of 2nd. Mind you, you come from the UK, which is worse than Ireland at 34th in gender equality.

My point is, again, should we not wish to emulate countries that are first or second in gender equality? Rather than give examples from a country that is the 2nd most developed in the world, but nonetheless has a relatively poor gender equality given its elevated position in HDI ranking?

mikedragon32

darter wrote: »

The idea is NOT a sound one mikedragon32, and pontificating doesn't make it sound. What is wrong with young women learning DIY? It's as likely as not that women have to fix up their homes. What's wrong with young men and young women learning DIY AT THE SAME TIME IN THE SAME PLACE?

Having a place where a group of PEOPLE can take on projects, learn skills and interact is a very good thing.

The reason there are women-only initiatives is entirely to do with intimidation they feel in the presence of men. If men ever grow up and truely treat women as equals, there wouldn't be a need for such initiatives, apart from those based on medical differences that is.

Anyway, as you say, there won't be the obligation to join. My points are that this initiative should not receive public funding, and it is not a milieu that presents role models for the young men of today. It is an anachronism.

Pontificating? Okay. It seems that anything I post which is contrary to your world view is pontificating, it's not the first time you've accused me of it. Disagree with me by all means but try not to force a tone on my posts that is neither implied or intended.

Have we really come to this, that men can't organise something for themselves without veiled accusations of chauvinism or that women don't go to things men go to for fear of intimidation? Did you read any of the information the OP linked to?

I play rugby and already have the knowledge that I have a group of men with whom I can talk when needs be without judgement about things for which I want a man's perspective. For example a while back I went through a major setback and needed to talk with men whom I consider to be friends and peers. It helped more than I could ever thank them for and I feel that while I would have perhaps got support from my female friends, it wasn't something I wanted to talk to them about.

If some men don't have the outlets I have, then the Men's Shed is something they might find useful. It's not about the DIY, it's about men feeling they have an environment in which they feel comfortable opening up about issues they experience. If they do some good in the community while they're at the shed, so much the better.

darter

You're establishing exactly my point mikedragon32. Thank you.

Try living in Sweden or Denmark or one of those other progressive countries where there is far better gender equality and you would be raised in a milieu from birth in which you seek the company of your friends, regardless of gender, in times of need.



P.S. Can't remember when I ever said anything about you before on these boards publicly. You are possibly referring to something we disagreed about privately when you were acting in your role as mod and I was chagrined by your actions and stance that I thought totally inappropriate? Let's not waste time on that though, or we'll have other mods after us for straying from the topic.

mikedragon32

Nope. But as you say, let's not drag this off topic.

BarryAlistair

LOL, I am indeed from the UK, and not that it has any bearing in this matter I will concede your attempt to re-inforce your point.

Equality, and not just gender equality, is extremely important and I for one live in the hope that every country strives to better itself in this regard. That said, no matter how good, there will always be a #1 and a #173.

One thing is for certain, nowhere on the Men's Shed website does it state that it's men only because women are not wanted, or because woman are not 'worthy' or 'capable' or 'whatever'.

Someone made the point earlier that women's groups are a result of women feeling intimidated by men, or where there are medical reasons to exclude men. The Men's Shed concept is not too different in this regard.

If men want to hang out with men, then surely it's their choice. Just like it's the choice of women to hang out with women, and men and women to hang out with each other. People ought not to jump to conclusions and say that these groups show inequality, the same as two men, or two women, having a pint or a coffee together to discuss matters best discussed between people / groups they identify.

To suggest the Men's Shed concept is anything else is simply unfair and inaccurate and un-informed.

Best
BArry

BarryAlistair

I think MikeDragon32 makes my point much more eloquently.

2011

darter wrote: »

The reason there are women-only initiatives is entirely to do with intimidation they feel in the presence of men. If men ever grow up and truely treat women as equals, there wouldn't be a need for such initiatives, apart from those based on medical differences that is.

A little over the top and one sided possibly??

JanneG

darter wrote: »

You're establishing exactly my point mikedragon32. Thank you.

Try living in Sweden or Denmark or one of those other progressive countries where there is far better gender equality and you would be raised in a milieu from birth in which you seek the company of your friends, regardless of gender, in times of need.



P.S. Can't remember when I ever said anything about you before on these boards publicly. You are possibly referring to something we disagreed about privately when you were acting in your role as mod and I was chagrined by your actions and stance that I thought totally inappropriate? Let's not waste time on that though, or we'll have other mods after us for straying from the topic.

Let's just say that you have obviously never lived nor spent any major amount of time in any of the countries that you mention... I can tell you that there are plenty of clubs/organisations/associations that are men only in Sweden, Denmark and Norway for example...

Do women make a big deal out of it and call it chauvanistic? No, because they go off and do their own thing...

To say that this idea is just that is to me just absurd... but sure, what do I know? I've only grown up in this previously mentioned milieu in Sweden...

Just my two cent...

dudmis

darter wrote: »

I don't know why you keep referring to Australian experiences.

I was responding to the previous poster who made the comment

Every study has shown that men do not communicate mental health problems with other men. No male only groups have ever shown results of reducing suicide rates.

.

And while it referred to an Australian programme, it was taken from an Irish policy document.

And, I don't think Australian men are all that different from Irish men and would imagine that the benefits would be comparable. (and before you ask, I have lived there too )

darter

2011 wrote: »

A little over the top and one sided possibly??

Not quite sure what you mean 2011, but possibly that's reciprocated - you don't know what I mean.

Try to put your mind in a place where there are no genders, where men and women mix freely and treat each other as equals in ALL things. That is true gender equality.

Yes, of course there are differences and we recognise and cherish those, but those differences are minor compared to the similarities, and should not cause us to have separate programmes for interaction, mentoring and training, especially of our youth.

One surprising thing, and perhaps counter to some of the arguments presented, is that there is no inverse correlation between gender equality and male suicide rate, as I would expect thinking that in gender equal countries men have twice as many friends for outlets of their emotions. The suicide rate of around 20 (+/- 5) per 100,000 per year seems to be constant across the whole of Europe - except puzzlingly for the UK where it is half that.
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide_rates/en/

Looking at that list, it is obvious what the solution to male suicide rate is - move to the Caribbean! This tongue-firmly-in-cheek remark is not meant at all to disparage a serious problem, but to point out that a Caribbean mentality does not result in any desperate feelings of emptiness. I am guessing this is because of the community spirit - everyone helps everyone else, regardless of gender. There are NO Men's Sheds in the Caribbean!

Anyway, I have made my points enough I think. Let those from a bygone age who are uncomfortable in the presence of women go ahead with this initiative, but no public money and it should not be promoted to the modern youth. I rest my case.

darter

JanneG wrote: »

Let's just say that you have obviously never lived nor spent any major amount of time in any of the countries that you mention...

Actually I have lived in Sweden and some of the others that have far higher gender equality rates than Ireland...

dudmis

There is one difference between Ireland and Australia that is becoming apparent though.

In Australia, if a private individual decided to spend his own time and effort in developing something for a sector of his community out of his own good will, he would be congratulated and supported.

It would be nice if we could follow this example.