Mike Tyson vs Rocky Marciano

tryingmybestt

Mike Tyson v Rocky Marciano

A classic fantasy match up between two heavyweight greats....

Who do you think wins this excellent match up?

cowzerp

Tyson round 1 ko, this is a terrible match for rocky.

Littlehorny

Tyson all the way, simply because Marciano only weighed 185 lbs. Finding other great fighters who fought at 185 would form a better debate i think.

tryingmybestt

I'm not sure about this one...

Below is my initial analysis:

Speed: - advantage tyson
Power: - equal
Footwork: - advantage tyson
Chin: - advantage rocky
Mental toughness/determination: - advantage rocky
Technique: - advantage tyson
Fitness: equal
Stamina: - slight advantage to rocky....he continue his ko's late in fights...if tyson didnt do it early he didnt get the ko or he lost
Strenght: Slight edge to tyson due to extra weight although rocky was famous for his brute strenght

I think Rocky's will to win and excellent beard would see out the first 6 rounds which would be tough for him and then i think he'd come on strong and get the ko

I could also see the possibility of an early ko victory for tyson but i'm slight leaning towards the other option ....60/40 split

tryingmybestt

Littlehorny wrote: »

Tyson all the way, simply because Marciano only weighed 185 lbs. Finding other great fighters who fought at 185 would form a better debate i think.

i dont know about that because we couldn't compare tyson v foreman or tyson v klitschko or tyson v louis etc. or foreman v holyfield etc.

i don't think size and weight are everything although they can be significant

Littlehorny

tryingmybestt wrote: »

i dont know about that because we couldn't compare tyson v foreman or tyson v klitschko or tyson v louis etc. or foreman v holyfield etc.

i don't think size and weight are everything although they can be significant

Marciano would be a small cruiserweight in todays money, although roughly the same height Tyson weighed 220lbs. I know Marciano had the strength of a weightlifter, tough as hell, an iron will and a better boxer than he gets credit for.
But as the saying goes "a good big un, will beat a good little un". Also Marciano was not that hard to hit. Tyson hits harder and faster than any fighter Marciano faced so i can't see anything but a win for Tyson in this macth up.

HovaBaby

I can identify 2 unprecedents if this match-up happened:

1) What would happen when Tyson's bombs land on Marciano? Marciano was known for his will to win and determination, could Tyson knock Marciano out?

2) Tyson never fought a fighter in the mold of Marciano, coming straight at you with an iron will and lions heart. (though same could be said Marciano never fought a fighter like Tyson, his strength and ferocity.)

It would be fascinating to see how the fight would pan out. What would happen when Tyson comes out all-gates-opened in the 1st round? Would he be able to push Marciano back? I think from watching Tyson-Ruddock 1, when Ruddock caught Tyson with that mule-kick of a left hook he quelled Tyson's ferocity promptly. If Marciano could hurt Tyson good with one punch he could quiet Tyson in the 1st round.

Let me put it this was, as it's how I feel. IMO there would be a trilogy of fights: Tyson would win one and Marciano would win one, both being counted out on their knee. The 3rd one could go either way. One thing for certain, both fighters never fought fighters of the same mold as each other in their career.

tryingmybestt

HovaBaby wrote: »

I can identify 2 unprecedents if this match-up happened:

1) What would happen when Tyson's bombs land on Marciano? Marciano was known for his will to win and determination, could Tyson knock Marciano out?

2) Tyson never fought a fighter in the mold of Marciano, coming straight at you with an iron will and lions heart. (though same could be said Marciano never fought a fighter like Tyson, his strength and ferocity.)

.

great points.......

1) i feel tyson has fought someone of similar mentality in Holyfield and we all know what happened there ...i wouldn't put holyfields toughness on a par with rocky but its close

2) marciano definitely fought some hard hitters : archie moore (ring nr 4 p4p biggest puncher of all time), joe louis (ring nr 1 p4p puncher although was at end of career), jersey joe walcott(ring nr 66 puncher), ezzard charles etc.
Not only were they hard hitters they were great fighter, most ranking much higher than tyson on the all time p4p best boxers list

for me there is more of an argument to say rocky would win, only just though because of the weight difference....if they were equal wieght i'd say rock 9/10

Cavehill Red

Tyson would destroy him every time. You just don't overcome that sort of size difference with will and heart.

Marciano's only chance would be to annoy and provoke Tyson into disqualifying himself. And Rocky wasn't that type of fighter.

tryingmybestt

holyfield (208lbs) - v foreman (257lbs)

holyfield v bowe

haye v valuev

Baer (210lbs) v Carners (263lbs)

Armstrong v Ross

all above examples of winner in title fight being much lighter

i don't think weight is always the decider although it obviously plays a major part

cowzerp

Holyfield v Marciano would be a better match up on paper, but again I'm afraid Rocky will be out of his depth-comparing haye v valuev etc is not the same, valuev is big and slow and not very good

Tyson was fast, extremely powerful and had a solid chin, at times he was the most devastating fighter in history

Marciano would trade with him and that's why I see this been over quick, if rockys chin can take 4-5 rounds of hits I think he will frustrate and bring Tyson where he does not want to be, but as I said I can't see that happening.

iii Stevo iii

Prime Tyson wins this by KO round 1-3.

I dont think you can say they had equal power or strength - Tyson much bigger,stronger and more powerful man.

tryingmybestt

iii Stevo iii wrote: »

Prime Tyson wins this by KO round 1-3.

I dont think you can say they had equal power or strength - Tyson much bigger,stronger and more powerful man.

its definitely a big possibility that he gets the early ko

i wonder what would happen if marciano's chin held up and he got through the first 5 rounds

iii Stevo iii

tryingmybestt wrote: »

its definitely a big possibility that he gets the early ko

i wonder what would happen if marciano's chin held up and he got through the first 5 rounds

at a guess I'd say he gets KO'd round 6-8.

Dont think he stops tyson, if it lasts to decision the pressure and punishment tyson has put on him over the first 2/3rds of the fight means tyson wins by a decent points margin.

tryingmybestt

iii Stevo iii wrote: »

at a guess I'd say he gets KO'd round 6-8.

Dont think he stops tyson, if it lasts to decision the pressure and punishment tyson has put on him over the first 2/3rds of the fight means tyson wins by a decent points margin.

on past form tyson didn't really get ko's past the early to mid rounds so i'd doubt he'd get the late ko against an iron chinned marciano...

i could see marciano come on strong and wear him down and impose his will on tyson and break him mentally.....i could definitely see a late stoppage with a short right hand

Mellor

Regarding the weight issue, Rocky was 185lbs. In todays terms, he isn't a HW, he's a LHW. He quite clearly destroys current LHW champs.

So the fantasy match up should really be Rocky verses Roy Jones Jr.
Another name tossed about for greatest LHW ever was Archie Moore, who Rocky KO'd in his final fight.

Rocky's legacy suffers because there was nobody else at the time. Fraizer or Ali would have gone 49-0 against the same guys.
Rocky weighed 185 because he chose to be. He was apparently 210 when he played baseball, maybe if he had to fight in the Fraizer/Ali era he would of fopught bigger, but the truth is we'll never know.

tysonslovechild

tyson id say for this one, speed, power and head movement are his best assets and I think he finishes this in 4. Rockys speed wasnt the same as tysons and I think power geos to tyson, Rockys right hand was his sledge hammer but tyson had wicked power in both hands, rockys crowding of opponents would be his downfall as tysons quick hands on the inside would catch rocky coming in. rockys looping punches at times aswell would be made for tyson.

tryingmybestt

Mellor wrote: »

Regarding the weight issue, Rocky was 185lbs. In todays terms, he isn't a HW, he's a LHW. He quite clearly destroys current LHW champs.

So the fantasy match up should really be Rocky verses Roy Jones Jr.
Another name tossed about for greatest LHW ever was Archie Moore, who Rocky KO'd in his final fight.

Rocky's legacy suffers because there was nobody else at the time. Fraizer or Ali would have gone 49-0 against the same guys.
Rocky weighed 185 because he chose to be. He was apparently 210 when he played baseball, maybe if he had to fight in the Fraizer/Ali era he would of fopught bigger, but the truth is we'll never know.

fair point

comparing him with cruiserweights would be fairer but i compare him against tyson because i believe he stands a chance...

i wouldn't give him a chance against ali, frazier, foreman or klitschko

against tyson i believe he would stand a chance and the size difference is weight, not height etc.....tyson at his peak was about 212 -215lbs so an extra 30lbs is colossal but rocky might be able to overcome it if he could survive first 5-6 rounds and thats a big IF

walshb

Mellor wrote: »

Regarding the weight issue, Rocky was 185lbs. In todays terms, he isn't a HW, he's a LHW. He quite clearly destroys current LHW champs.

So the fantasy match up should really be Rocky verses Roy Jones Jr.
Another name tossed about for greatest LHW ever was Archie Moore, who Rocky KO'd in his final fight.

Rocky's legacy suffers because there was nobody else at the time. Fraizer or Ali would have gone 49-0 against the same guys.
Rocky weighed 185 because he chose to be. He was apparently 210 when he played baseball, maybe if he had to fight in the Fraizer/Ali era he would of fopught bigger, but the truth is we'll never know.

In today's terms Rocky is a CW, not LH. But, I see what you mean.

Anyway, p4p I love Rocky and really do think that anyone under 200 lbs loses to him. He is so good, so powerful, fit and committed. Many take him close, but p4p he was IMO a top 5.

The glaring issue here is that Rocky is 185-190 lbs. Mike is 30 lbs heavier.

Now, as regards chins, how can we fairly compare? If one man routinely showed a solid beard (at peak) whilst getting hit by men 220-230 lbs, and the other man showed a very good chin whilst taking shots off men who were not as big or as heavy, then I think it needs looking at.

Look at Rocky's record, and yes, some men were 200 plus lbs, but this is 220 lbs of Mike Tyson, not James Patrick Connolly, or Bill Hardeman. Could Rocky land a Suzie Q? Yes, and could it drop Mike for the count? Yes. Do I think it will? I would have to say no. Tyson's chin/head/neck for a flush shot was superb. Granite. But, again, speculation.

Rocky has been dropped, and rocked and hurt by men who were not in Tyson's league as regards power, and not only power, but follow up power.

I have to concur with the majority here. This is a bad match for Rocky, and even if he gets past 5 or 6 rds, Tyson at peak always showed fitness. Showed a solid chin too, so, sorry Rocky, Tyson is just a little too heavy AND talented. So, if it was to go the route, then Mike can still win. So could Rocky.

Bet: I will go with Mike inside the first 5 rds.

Oh, just to be clear; Rocky at best vs. post prison Tyson, his chances increase.

walshb

BTW, Paul, I know me and you discussed Rocky and Holyfield before, and as you brought it up in a post on this thread, I will say that it would be a hell of a scrap, hell of a scrap. I could see both sides there. I used to be more Rocky, but I think it's razor close.

If it's at 200 lbs or below I believe Rocky wins, close, but wins. At HW, period, almost a toss up for me.

cowzerp

I've started a most overrated thread and picked the Rock as my 1st pick as over rated, check it out lads.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

I've started a most overrated thread and picked the Rock as my 1st pick as over rated, check it out lads.

I replied; for some reason I did not see the name, and I correctly assumed you meant Rocky.

tryingmybestt

for me rocky stands a chance against any of the 'smaller HW's such as tyson, frazier, holyfield etc.'

i don't see him beating the likes of ali, foreman, klitschko, bowe, lewis etc.

holyfield beat tyson so if rocky beats holyfield he should stand a good chance with tyson IMO, regardless of styles make fights

Mellor

walshb wrote: »

In today's terms Rocky is a CW, not LH. But, I see what you mean.

Yeah, at 185 he jumps on a scales and makes CW. But in todays terms, he would be cutting to 175 to make LHW. Which is why I put him in that division in my post.
But the point stands, he destroys the CW division also.

walshb

Mellor wrote: »

Yeah, at 185 he jumps on a scales and makes CW. But in todays terms, he would be cutting to 175 to make LHW. Which is why I put him in that division in my post.
But the point stands, he destroys the CW division also.

Yeah, I get you. Not sure Rocky cuts to 175 lbs. I mean, he was quite cut and toned while 185-190. 10-15 lbs for a man who is already cut and toned and very strong may not be the route. I know he did weigh in less in some fights. And, as you said, he may have been a deal heavier when playing baseball. So, maybe 185-190 lbs is his best fighting weight. Anyway, as I said, I cannot confidently pick any fighter below 200 lbs in history to beat him. He was such a powerful and conditioned and relentless fighter. So so many shots, all places, all night and many with power.

As it pertains to this particular match, weight and size are not only a factor, but IMO, a major factor.

Mellor

walshb wrote: »

]

Yeah, I get you. Not sure Rocky cuts to 175 lbs. I mean, he was quite cut and toned while 185-190. 10-15 lbs for a man who is already cut and toned and very strong may not be the route.

By "cut weight" I was referring to cutting water weight pre weigh-in, not trimming body fat and being genuinely lighter. So after rehydrating, he'd be 185 entering the ring, just was he was at HW.

old_aussie

Rocky Marciano

walshb

Mellor wrote: »

By "cut weight" I was referring to cutting water weight pre weigh-in, not trimming body fat and being genuinely lighter. So after rehydrating, he'd be 185 entering the ring, just was he was at HW.

Fair enough. But, 10lbs is still 10 lbs. I agree that he annihilates any LHW today.

And, to get behind your point, yes, he did weigh in light during his career, so, LHW is an option. Anyway, LHW, CW, as we both agree, he is too good for many many fighters at both weights.

tryingmybestt

if Rocky beats any Cruiserweight in history then surely p4p he is one of the best??

on this basis how the hell is he overrated???????????

Mellor

tryingmybestt wrote: »

if Rocky beats any Cruiserweight in history then surely p4p he is one of the best??

on this basis how the hell is he overrated???????????

Well, P4P he is one of the best. In terms of chin and power, he's massive for a LHW/CW. That's not the debate here. He wasn't rated at those weights.
We were talking in terms of HW. His record suggests he was one of the greatest HWs ever, but in reality, be fought in a weak era. So in that regard, he is overrated. With the gap between LHW/CW and HW being so great, P4P merit drops off.

walshb

Mellor wrote: »

Well, P4P he is one of the best. In terms of chin and power, he's massive for a LHW/CW. That's not the debate here. He wasn't rated at those weights.
We were talking in terms of HW. His record suggests he was one of the greatest HWs ever, but in reality, be fought in a weak era. So in that regard, he is overrated. With the gap between LHW/CW and HW being so great, P4P merit drops off.

Eras aside, because one could argue that Louis/Holmes/Tyson et al fought weak opposition, I think Rocky is great. BTW, I think Mike fought good opponents. Rocky beat the men in HIS era. End of. Anyway, you are right, the debate is Rocky vs. Tyson at HW. The overrated thread is not this thread. It is cowzerp that the comment should be directed at.

As a p4p fighter Rocky is in my top 5. I rate him very very highly. As said, anyone under 200 lbs and I ain't betting on them vs. Rocky Marciano.

Tyson at 220 lbs of solid muscle vs. Rocky at 185/190; sorry, that just will not be ignored. Tyson weighing under 200 lbs, if that was possible, I will back the Rock. Also, it is not just the weight. Mike at peak was also a killer, a deadly hitter, and IMO a bad style match for Rocky. So, weight and size are a big factor, but that combined with talent makes it even more significant.

I know as the bigger men get, weight can be less significant, but why is it that we can, or seem to ignore 30 plus lbs; as in many will argue for Tunney over Tyson or Tunney over Bowe, even, or Dempsey over men 30-40 lbs heavier etc, and they will dismiss weight as almost a non factor? 3-4-5-6 lbs I could agree with this being less of a factor, but 30 lbs? C'mon.

If I were to post a match pitting Azumah Nelson @ FW vs. Mike McCallum @ JMW it would be laughed at, not even discussed. But, Tyson having 2 plus stones in weight over Rocky is almost dismissed as not that important? It is extremely important from my vantage point.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Eras aside, because one could argue that Louis/Holmes/Tyson et al fought weak opposition, I think Rocky is great. BTW, I think Mike fought good opponents. Rocky beat the men in HIS era. End of. Anyway, you are right, the debate is Rocky vs. Tyson at HW. The overrated thread is not this thread. It is cowzerp that the comment should be directed at.

Agreed, it should be aimed at me-i said he's overrated and still stand by that-his record is great but so is Joe Calzaghe-another overrated fighter

On the light heavy and Marciano beating all in history-BHOP now would beat him convincingly in my opinion, way to slick and way too fast for the Rock.

This proves nothing but to me shows something!
Before beating the old and badly faded Joe Louis in 51 the Rock was fighting 4 years so not on his 1st few fights, he had 6 fights in 1951 before beating Louis, the combined record of his 6 foe's was 99 wins 64 losses and 10 draws,

after joe he beat lee savold 96-37-3 and coming off 2 losses in his last 3

then he fought Gino Buonvino who was 24-14-8 and coming off a loss and losing 3 of his last 6

then bernie reynolds, 51-9-1 and had lost 4 of his last 6

in the rest of the career he fought 3 lads who had a winning record in their last fights of 6 wins in a row

The rest (8 fighters) not 1 had more than a 2 fight win streak going, this may read harsh but there facts-Then he retired at 32 when he could have kept fighting at the top level. Or could he????

oh yeah and 10 of his 11 opponents before louis had not got even a 2 win streak record going on, with 9 of them coming off losses, the 1 not coming off a loss was coming off 4 losses from 5 fights.

30 of his 49 fights where not coming off win's.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Agreed, it should be aimed at me-i said he's overrated and still stand by that-his record is great but so is Joe Calzaghe-another overrated fighter

On the light heavy and Marciano beating all in history-BHOP now would beat him convincingly in my opinion, way to slick and way too fast for the Rock.

This proves nothing but to me shows something!
Before beating the old and badly faded Joe Louis in 51 the Rock was fighting 4 years so not on his 1st few fights, he had 6 fights in 1951 before beating Louis, the combined record of his 6 foe's was 99 wins 64 losses and 10 draws,

after joe he beat lee savold 96-37-3 and coming off 2 losses in his last 3

then he fought Gino Buonvino who was 24-14-8 and coming off a loss and losing 3 of his last 6

then bernie reynolds, 51-9-1 and had lost 4 of his last 6

in the rest of the career he fought 3 lads who had a winning record in their last fights of 6 wins in a row

The rest (8 fighters) not 1 had more than a 2 fight win streak going, this may read harsh but there facts-Then he retired at 32 when he could have kept fighting at the top level. Or could he????

oh yeah and 10 of his 11 opponents before louis had not got even a 2 win streak record going on, with 9 of them coming off losses, the 1 not coming off a loss was coming off 4 losses from 5 fights.

30 of his 49 fights where not coming off win's.

BHop today/now beats Rocky Marciano convincingly?

Paul, admire and respect your boxing knowledge, but this comment to me I just cannot fathom. You must really really see nothing with a 177-185 lbs Rocky Marciano. I don't think Rocky ever weighed at the LHW limit. Still, if he did, I do not see Bhop beating him.

BHop, slick or not, will never ever keep up a pace that Rocky will set. Completely different animal to any man Bhop has ever faced. Yes, Bhop is different to many men Rocky faced, well, Archie was as cute as they come, but still, cute or not, Bhop just doesn't not like fighting at a high pace. Rocky has power, stamina, and serious volume. He overwhelms Bhop. Bhop also has nothing to keep Rocky at bay. That is very important.

Also, Calzaghe beat Bhop. You rate Joe as overrated. Bear in mind this was three or four years ago. So, if Bhop today beats the LHW Marciano, and three of four years ago we surely can agree that Bhop was better, how is it then that Calzaghe is overrated? So, if Bhop three years ago cannot beat an overrated Joe, what does that make Bhop?

BTW, we are mixing up threads, aren't we?

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

BHop today/now beats Rocky Marciano convincingly?

Paul, admire and respect your boxing knowledge, but this comment to me I just cannot fathom. You must really really see nothing with a 185 lbs Rocky Marciano.

BHOP slick or not, will never ever keep up a pace that Rocky will set. Completely different animal to any man Bhop has ever faced. Yes, Bhop is different to many men Rocky faced, well, Archie was a s cute as they come, but still, cute or not, Bhop juts doesn not like fighting at a high pace. Rocky has power, stamina, and serious volume. He overwhelms Bhop. Bhop also has nothing to keep Rocky at bay. That is very important.

Also, Calzaghe beat Bhop? You rate Joe as overrated. Bear in mind this was three or four years ago. So, if Bhop now beats the best Marciano, and three of four years ago we surely can agree that Bhop was better, how is it then that Calzaghe is overrated? So, if Bhop cannot bean an overrated Joe, what does that make Bhop?

BTW, we are mixing up threads, aren't we?

this thread is about why i feel Tyson would slaughter the Rock so its just as valid here, the other thread is about any overrated fighters not just the Rock.

I don't rate Rocky at all, he was a looked after fighter given easy fights against 30 lads coming off losses, then even the ones not coming off losses where mostly coming off bad runs in general or where at the start of there career's and low level, Archie Moore was a light heavyweight and was his best win, Joe louis on paper but in reality he was a shell.

BHOP beat real winners and would go through the Rock, lets look at the facts of his terrible opposition and leave nostalgia alone, Rocky to me was a fraud and i still have my beliefs that he was a mafia owned fraud at that.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

this thread is about why i feel Tyson would slaughter the Rock so its just as valid here, the other thread is about any overrated fighters not just the Rock.

I don't rate Rocky at all, he was a looked after fighter given easy fights against 30 lads coming off losses, then even the ones not coming off losses where mostly coming off bad runs in general or where at the start of there career's and low level, Archie Moore was a light heavyweight and was his best win, Joe louis on paper but in reality he was a shell.

BHOP beat real winners and would go through the Rock, lets look at the facts of his terrible opposition and leave nostalgia alone, Rocky to me was a fraud and i still have my beliefs that he was a mafia owned fraud at that.

Ok, leave the posts here, your call. I don't think he was a fraud, and what he did in the ring cannot be described as fraudulent IMO.

At LHW, who were these real winners BHop beat? Tarver, Pascal? Both get eaten alive I think vs. Marciano. I know you didn't claim that Tarver or Pacal, for example, would beat Rocky, just a point I am making, as it relates to two names on Hopkins' record at LHW that he fought.

I assume by winners you mean that they had winning records? Yes, they did.

cowzerp

walsh wrote: »

Ok, leave the posts here, your call. I don't think he was a fraud, and what he did in the ring cannot be described as fraudulent IMO.

At LHW, who were these real winners BHop beat? Tarver, Pascal? Both get eaten alive I think vs. Marciano. I know you didn't claim that Tarver or Pascal, for example, would beat Rocky, just a point I am making, as it relates to two names on Hopkins' record at LHW that he fought.

I assume by winners you mean that they had winning records? Yes, they did.

I never said at Light heavy he beat a great selection, i said he beat winners-Talented unbeaten fighters such as RJJ, Glen Johnson, Felix Trinidad and Pavlik all unbeaten at the time

Add to that De la hoya, Howard Eastman, Jean Pascal, and he beat good solid opposition

Now the question is can he take the Rocks power, well the fact that i don't think he gets hit clean makes it a no brainer to me-Hopkins embarrassing the life out of Marciano to a late stoppage or large points victory, yes Rocky has a punchers chance-that's all.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

I never said at Light heavy he beat a great selection, i said he beat winners-Talented unbeaten fighters such as RJJ, Glen Johnson, Felix Trinidad and Pavlik all unbeaten at the time

Add to that De la hoya, Howard Eastman, Jean Pascal, and he beat good solid opposition

Now the question is can he take the Rocks power, well the fact that i don't think he gets hit clean makes it a no brainer to me-Hopkins embarrassing the life out of Marciano to a late stoppage or large points victory, yes Rocky has a punchers chance-that's all.

As usual it's just me and you, back and forth, but, always enjoying the debate though. We need more posters to debate. It's desperate slow here of late.

We disagree. I think Rocky dominates Bhop at any weight (LHW/CW to be more specific). But, I assume you mean if matched at 175 lbs, if so, again, Rocky just too good, too fit, relentless, hard hitting and determined.

BHop to me by the way is/was a great fighter. I think at MW-SMW he is a match for any man ever. Oh, and yes, at other weights (apart from 175) Bhop did meet some good fighters. Lost clearly to Jones though. At MW many would argue weak competition, me, he beat what was there at that time.

One man he beat that I think he gets too much credit for is Tito. Tito was never a real MW, and style wise Hopkins was always beating him. Bigger and stronger and far more versatile. Oscar? What good/great middle would not beat Oscar at 160 lbs? So, in a nutshell the two wins over Tito and Oscar at 160 lbs do nothing for me. Good wins over WW/JMW fighters. They are just two BIG names on his 160 lb resume that do not at all wow me. He had other wins at 160 lbs too. So, not saying he didn't meet anyone good. Just the names and quality I see don't wow me at all. Win over Glen Johnson was to me a better win than say Tito and Oscar.

And, lost to Joe at 175 lbs. That must kill you, Paul?:)

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

And, lost to Joe at 175 lbs. That must kill you, Paul?:)

He was beaten, but the bookies had Hopkins winning the fight as did many other people, Bookies don't work with emotions and base there odds on making money.

That did not go down well with me and Calzaghe not rematching him said more about the fight than anything, Also i know i'm bigging BHOP up now and he is still good but he has been below peak for years now, and he was more washed up than Calzaghe was back then, Just BHOP's peak is leagues above most mere mortals!

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

He was beaten, but the bookies had Hopkins winning the fight as did many other people, Bookies don't work with emotions and base there odds on making money.

That did not go down well with me and Calzaghe not rematching him said more about the fight than anything, Also i know i'm bigging BHOP up now and he is still good but he has been below peak for years now, and he was more washed up than Calzaghe was back then, Just BHOP's peak is leagues above most mere mortals!

Crap fight, but I just could not argue it for Bernard. He spoiled far too much.

More washed up? Ok, but don't you see that if three or four years ago he was more washed up than Joe, isn't it safe to say that now he is even more washed up? Joe too was past his best, and moved to a weight that he had never fought in. Bhop I believe had fought at 175 lbs.

Joe's style, work-rate, fitness, tactics and desire are just bad for a fighter like Hopkins. Sometimes happens that one man's style is bad for another's.

And, saying this, that is why to me, thinking he beats Marciano at 175 lbs, today, I find difficult to get behind.

I know you have not said that Bhop today is better than Bhop from three years ago, just to be clear. Just that if Calzaghe can beat him at 175 lbs three years ago, surely Rocky can? I mean, it's Calzaghe, and you don't rate him at all. I also know you think Hop deserved the nod vs. Calzaghe, but either way, it was so so close a fight. I know, I know, styles make fights; just throwing it out there.

This is interesting. Paul, Calzaghe vs. Rocky at 175 lbs?

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Crap fight, but I just could not argue it for Bernard. He spoiled far too much.

More washed up? Ok, but don't you see that if three or four years ago he was more washed up than Joe, isn't it safe to say that now he is even more washed up? Joe too was past his best, and moved to a weight that he had never fought in. Bhop I believe had fought at 175 lbs.

Joe's style, work-rate, fitness, tactics and desire are just bad for a fighter like Hopkins. Sometimes happens that one man's style is bad for another's.

And, saying this, that is why to me, thinking he beats Marciano at 175 lbs, today, I find difficult to get behind.

Yes he is more washed up now but he had an off night that night anyway and still won in my eyes

so in my eyes he won that fight so Joe style aint that hard for him-If he had fought like he did Pavlik he would have finished Calzaghe.

Calzaghe barely laid a glove on him in fairness.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

This is interesting. Paul, Calzaghe vs. Rocky at 175 lbs?

The most scrappy awful fight i could ever imagine, would probably be fun as a scrap but from a technical point of view the idea hurts my eyes!!

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Yes he is more washed up now but he had an off night that night anyway and still won in my eyes

so in my eyes he won that fight so Joe style aint that hard for him-If he had fought like he did Pavlik he would have finished Calzaghe.

Calzaghe barely laid a glove on him in fairness.

Yes, horrible fight. But, Hop didn't land all that much either.

Pavlik is Pavlik, not Joe. Pavlik being Pavlik allowed Hopkins to look good.

Joe is a completely different fighter. Far more versatile than Pavlik, even though when Pavlik came onto the scene I rated him. I got that wrong.

I don't see the extraoplation. Joe is a far more competent and difficult task than a 175 lb Pavlik. I know you did say that you don't think that Joe's style is hard for Hop, and have put it down to an "off night." Me, no, Hop and Calzaghe always always make for a close fight. Their styles, brains, and versatility cause this.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

The most scrappy awful fight i could ever imagine, would probably be fun as a scrap but from a technical point of view the idea hurts my eyes!!

Well, I reckon Joe lasts three rds. Joe had a decent chin for SMW-LH, but if Hop, Jones and others can wobble and rock him, then Rocky comatoses him the second he connects clean.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Well, I reckon Joe lasts three rds. Joe had a decent chin for SMW-LH, but if Hop, Jones and others can wobble and rock him, then Rocky comatoses him the second he connects clean.

Yeah you could be right, i don't know how i rate his real punch power against good opposition

As i showed his opposition was not the best there was to face and was poor in general for champion or contender

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Yeah you could be right, i don't know how i rate his real punch power against good opposition

As i showed his opposition was not the best there was to face and was poor in general for champion or contender

Paul, opposition aside, just here, if one looks simply at the Suzie Q shot and how Walcott, a 190 plus lb fighter reacted, I think it's okay to say that Rocky could sure hit. And, for Joe Calzaghe, that shot may kill him.:) Rd 1, or rd 12, Joe dies! Rocky routinely knocked out men above 175 lbs; skilled or not, when he landed on their chins, many crumbled. Joe will get tagged, and that spells disaster. Fit or not, skilled, technical etc, Rocky lands flush on Joe, as Toney would say, Lights Out!

Side note: I think for the first time ever Joe would be meeting a man every bit as fit, possibly fitter than he.

Irrelevant really, as fitness ain't the reason Marciano wins.

tryingmybestt

Mellor wrote: »

Well, P4P he is one of the best. In terms of chin and power, he's massive for a LHW/CW. That's not the debate here. He wasn't rated at those weights.
We were talking in terms of HW. His record suggests he was one of the greatest HWs ever, but in reality, be fought in a weak era. So in that regard, he is overrated. With the gap between LHW/CW and HW being so great, P4P merit drops off.

i don't think you can judge a fighter purely on his opposition......if ali, frazier, tyson etc. were 49-0 in rocky's era and fought the same opposition as rocky would you say they were overrated because of their opposition ?? or would you acknowledge their skills regardless of their opposition??

all a fighter can do is beat who's in front of him.......it's similar with tyson and holmes......they fought relatively weak oppostion but still their skills are acknowledged and they are recognised as some of the best....

rocky had strenght, power and a will to win, similar to fighters like aaron pryor, foreman

foreman was hardly the most skilled fighter in the world....look at the wide punches he threw against frazier.....yet his other talents of power etc. compensate for his lack of finesse......it's similar to rocky

rocky is not overrated IMO !!

tryingmybestt

i don't think one fighter is necessarily fitter than another, it's generally their style that appears so...95% of the time most high level fighters are super fit, although there are the exceptions
B-Hop is a counter puncher and doesn't thrown many shots....calzaghe is a combination puncher who throws more....i wouldn't say calzaghe is fitter, i'd just say he has a busier style

eagle eye

This one is impossible to call and the reason was stated earlier.

Rocky was never stopped ergo you cannot say that Tyson will stop him.

Tyson is very poor when fights go the distance so you can't say he wins over the distance either.

You'd expect that prime Tyson would have a huge advantage given his speed, power and the weight difference but its just impossible to call with any degree of certainty given his opponent has never been ko'd and just kept coming.

walshb

eagle eye wrote: »

This one is impossible to call and the reason was stated earlier.

Rocky was never stopped ergo you cannot say that Tyson will stop him.

Tyson is very poor when fights go the distance so you can't say he wins over the distance either.

You'd expect that prime Tyson would have a huge advantage given his speed, power and the weight difference but its just impossible to call with any degree of certainty given his opponent has never been ko'd and just kept coming.

Saying he was "very poor" when he went the distance? That to me is OTT. I mean, it paints the picture that when he went the route he looked poor, imcompetent, bad, woeful. When one looks at the fights that went the route, at peak, he was completely dominant, and won clearly, and boxed very well. Nobody really bothered him. Ruddock gave him a real go, but, Tyson stood up to it and prevailed. Smith and Tucker lost clear decisions whils mostly spoiling and surviving. Green and Tills was when he was pre champ; won both bouts.

Could one say the same about Rocky in his 12 or 15 rd wins? That he was very poor in them?

BTW, I am not certain of any win here. It is a fantasy fight. Just me and my educated impression. I could well be wrong.

cowzerp

Nothing is certain in fantasy fights but realistically Tyson would go through the rock easily in my opinion, Size power and Marcianos tailor made style all play there part in this, add in more skill and tysons solid chin and I don't see how the rock would have a chance.

tryingmybestt

heres my analysis IMO

Chin - advantage rocky
Durability - advantage rocky
Stamina - advantage rocky
Mental toughness - advantage rocky
Weight - advantage tyson
Strength - advantage tyson - slightly
Power - advantage rocky
Speed - advantage tyson
Footwork - advantage tyson
Defence - equal - totally different but equal
KO power late in fight - advantage rocky

rocky by Ko during middle to late rounds - he has the chin to survive tyson's onslaught in the first 5 rounds but when tyson begins to slow down rocky will take over....tyson will be discouraged from his all out attack once he taste rocky's power....it will make tyson more cautious and therefore totally out of his game