Roy Jones Jnr

sxt

If Roy jones Jnr retired after he won that heavy weight world title fight in 2003 , would he have been considered the best pound for pound (p4p) fighter in the world ever?

"Jones was the first middleweight champion to win a heavyweight title in 106 years" , Non beaten in 40 plus fights and first middleweight to win a heavyweight championshipn in 106 years . plus Jones won against some of the best like Hopkins , Toney ,Tarver, Mccallum, Johnson

tysonslovechild

sxt wrote: »

If Roy jones Jnr retired after he won that heavy weight world title fight in 2003 , would he have been considered the best pound for pound (pbf) fighter in the world ever?

roy jones was fantastic. definitley one of the greatest super middle weights of all time if not the greatest in some peoples eyes. My answer would be no as people will always have the opinion that ali is the greatest. In my opinion ali was great but not the greatest. Roy jones would definatley be up there

Bodhisopha

No.

JacksonHeightsOwn

i have to admit, and i know im going to get slated for it, that RJJ was a fraud.

i just think he avoided the big super middleweight showdowns with Benn, Eubank and in particular, Steve Collins.

he was knocking no name bozos out in the LHW division for years. While all and sundry where tossing themselves off over him.

i actually went to a UFC in 2004, and was drinking with a guy that owned a fairly prominent boxing/mma website over there. being a yank he started wailing on how great RJJ was. I just never saw it. I even said it to him, i said, "wait and you see, when he actually fights 50/50 fights, he'll be found out"

this same guy then emailed me a few years later and said, "you know what Chris, you where right, he was knocking bums out in a mickey mouse LHW division"

thats just my opinion. I know its a controversial one. But i was never sold on him

cowzerp

He would not have been considered by a majority to be the P4P best but he would deserve to be discussed as 1 of the potential best P4P fighters ever.

RJJ at peak was amazing.

cowzerp

chrisbonnie wrote: »

i have to admit, and i know im going to get slated for it, that RJJ was a fraud.

i just think he avoided the big super middleweight showdowns with Benn, Eubank and in particular, Steve Collins.

On the world stage these lads where small fry, over this side of the water they where big but not worldwide-Collin's i do feel could have made life hard for him due to heart determination and chin but the other 2 would not trouble him in anyway at peak, punchers chance i would give them both.

tryingmybestt

roy jones was fighter of the decade

i think that says it all

also should have gotten the olympic gold so had the talent from a young age

4 weight world champion

fought in prob biggest super middleweight fight against toney....outclassed a great fighter in toney

walshb

I rate him very good at peak, but sorry, beating ****ing John Ruiz is IMO nothing ultra special. Who didn't beat that guy, one of the worst, if not the worst examples of a HW champ ever. Toney beat him too. Now, before anyone comes in with "Jones beat a better version of Ruiz," any version of Ruiz IMO was sh1t.

No, for me it is Ali. Ali consitently beat ALL men, from anywhere on the planet. Roy moved up and beat Ruiz.

Jones would be a match for any MW-SMW in history. Above this I see him failing against many. LH I just haven't seen him beat any special fighters, or perform brilliantly. He could well give many great 175 lb men trouble. Not convinced.

Great fighter? Yes. Greatest ever. No no no.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

I rate him very good at peak, but sorry, beating ****ing John Ruiz is IMO nothing ultra special. Who didn't beat that guy, one of the worst, if not the worst examples of a HW champ ever. Toney beat him too. Now, before anyone comes in with "Jones beat a better version of Ruiz," any version of Ruiz IMO was sh1t.

No, for me it is Ali. Ali consitently beat ALL men, from anywhere on the planet. Roy moved up and beat Ruiz.

Jones would be a match for any MW-SMW in history. Above this I see him failing against many. LH I just haven't seen him beat any special fighters, or perform brilliantly. He could well give many great 175 lb men trouble. Not convinced.

Great fighter? Yes. Greatest ever. No no no.

you don't rate jones a former MW beating a strong HW in Ruiz, yet you previously heaped praise on Toney for beating a totally faded and old holyfield - where is the sense in that???

i don't see the relevance of ali?

jones was a top class fighter, fighter on the 90's.......top 3 fastest boxers of all time IMO.....great ko power at MW and SMW......great athlethe.....as george foreman says ....'Jones has the greates balance of any ATHLETHE i've ever seen'......

you don't think he head any brialliant performances at LHW...what about clinton woods, kelly, hill or griffin??

do you think toney would beat jones at LHW??

Daroxtar

2 words- Dariusz michalczweski

tysonslovechild

chrisbonnie wrote: »

i have to admit, and i know im going to get slated for it, that RJJ was a fraud.

i just think he avoided the big super middleweight showdowns with Benn, Eubank and in particular, Steve Collins.

he was knocking no name bozos out in the LHW division for years. While all and sundry where tossing themselves off over him.

i actually went to a UFC in 2004, and was drinking with a guy that owned a fairly prominent boxing/mma website over there. being a yank he started wailing on how great RJJ was. I just never saw it. I even said it to him, i said, "wait and you see, when he actually fights 50/50 fights, he'll be found out"

this same guy then emailed me a few years later and said, "you know what Chris, you where right, he was knocking bums out in a mickey mouse LHW division"

thats just my opinion. I know its a controversial one. But i was never sold on him

How did he avoid eubank,collins and benn? just because he never fought them. He fought a legend is james toney and beat him. If he could beat toney Im quite sure he knew he would have no problems with those three. Plus jones going up to heavyweight and winning a title should tell you a thing or two as regards him being fearless. Theres no way in hell he avoided collins and co.

dlofnep

RJJ was one of the most talented boxers to have ever lived. If you don't know that, you don't know boxing.

colly10

Jones was one of the greatest ever and is my favourite fighter ever. I think he ruined himself moving to heavyweight then dropping down.
He toyed with Toney who is a hall of game fighter, he was pure class

tryingmybestt

tryingmybestt wrote: »

you don't rate jones a former MW beating a strong HW in Ruiz, yet you previously heaped praise on Toney for beating a totally faded and old holyfield - where is the sense in that???

i don't see the relevance of ali?

jones was a top class fighter, fighter on the 90's.......top 3 fastest boxers of all time IMO.....great ko power at MW and SMW......great athlethe.....as george foreman says ....'Jones has the greates balance of any ATHLETHE i've ever seen'......

you don't think he head any brialliant performances at LHW...what about clinton woods, kelly, hill or griffin??

do you think toney would beat jones at LHW??

walshb .....any response?

don't get defensive it's not a personal attack

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

you don't rate jones a former MW beating a strong HW in Ruiz, yet you previously heaped praise on Toney for beating a totally faded and old holyfield - where is the sense in that???

i don't see the relevance of ali?

jones was a top class fighter, fighter on the 90's.......top 3 fastest boxers of all time IMO.....great ko power at MW and SMW......great athlethe.....as george foreman says ....'Jones has the greates balance of any ATHLETHE i've ever seen'......

you don't think he head any brialliant performances at LHW...what about clinton woods, kelly, hill or griffin??

do you think toney would beat jones at LHW??

I DON'T RATE Jones' win over Ruiz as all that special

I also don't rate Toney's win over Holyfield as anything special. I will add that he gave a masteful "looking" performance. Still nothing special. Both were past it.

So, nothing to do with sense.

Jones is a very very good fighter. MW-SMW and possibly LH. Above this I don't rate him as great.

Toney is a different thread. I prefer him, that is all. Both are HOF fighters.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

I DON'T RATE Jones' win over Ruiz as all that special

I also don't rate Toney's win over Holyfield as anything special. I will add that he gave a masteful "looking" performance. Still nothing special. Both were past it.

So, nothing to do with sense.

what about the rest of the post?

would toney beat jones at LH?

what about jones wins over woods etc.? not excellent performances?

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

what about the rest of the post?

would toney beat jones at LH?

what about jones wins over woods etc.? not excellent performances?

Clinton Woods, says it all.

Yes, he lookd good. I am not using Woods as some barometer, that is my point. Jones as a LH vs. the likes of Charles or Tunney or Moore or Spinks or Saad, now, that would be something to use.

Toney and Jones at LH; would have loved to see that. Guys did make excuses for the Toney loss to Roy. Weight issues etc. I think Jones' style was simply bad. Happens. Thought it was a dull fight. Jones clearly won, but never battered him. Stayed a step or two ahead

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Clinton Woods, says it all.

Yes, he lookd good. I am not using Woods as some barometer, that is my point. Jones as a LH vs. the likes of Charles or Tunney or Moore or Spinks or Saad, now, that would be something to use.

Toney and Jones at LH; would have loved to see that. Guys did make excuses for the Toney loss to Roy. Weight issues etc. I think Jones' style was simply bad. Happens. Thought it was a dull fight. Jones clearly won, but never battered him. Sayed a step or two ahead

you said before toney is a great fighter and jones is not.....yet you don't know who would win?

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

you said before toney is a great fighter and jones is not.....yet you don't know who would win?

Ok, that is it; I am done

Where did I say Jones is not great?

On another forum, on another thread, where?

My god, are you deliberately just looking to argue?

I don't kow who would win at LH, guess why? Because they never fought at LH.

What is your issue?

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Ok, that is it; I am done

Where did I say Jones is not great?

On another forum, on another thread. where?

My god, are you deliberately just looking to argue?

I don't kow who would win at LH, gues why? Becaue they never fought at LH.

What is your issue?

My guess is a a Bernard Dunne fan getting there own back on you!

I reckon its a miscommunication Bren.

Bren just rates Toney v highly and RJJ not so much at LH

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

My guess is a a Bernard Dunne fan getting there own back on you!

I reckon its a miscommunication Bren.

Bren just rates Toney v highly and RJJ not so much at LH

That was easy. As for a miscommunication, that is being generous. I flat out NEVER said that Jones was not a great fighter.

BTW, I don't rate Toney as elite at LH; don't think I said that.

Him and Jones at LH to me are not elite. Jones is very good, a notch below elite at LH.

I do believe that both at LH would be very competent and competitive against an LH thru the years.

May even get a legit belt. Just not ready to label them elite.

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

i don't see the relevance of ali?

QUOTE]

"

---

"If Roy jones Jnr retired after he won that heavy weight world title fight in 2003 , would he have been considered the best pound for pound (p4p) fighter in the world ever?"


What?

The thread asks if Jones could be considered the best ever p4p.

I disagreed, and gave my opinion of who is best p4p, Ali!

How is that not relevant?

If I said I consider Roy NOT to be the best p4p ever, but SRR to be, would that be relevant?

The thread is very precise in what it asks. And, as far as I know, when one asks who they think is best ever p4p, or asks if a certain fighter should be considered p4p best ever, I believe heavies are allowed into the discussion, are they not? Hence my selection of Ali, a HW.

walshb

On a spearte not, sxt starts the thread, and then posts nothing. I would like to hear back from the OP to see what he thinks of the replies. That's just me.

sxt, where are you?;)

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

tryingmybestt wrote: »

i don't see the relevance of ali?

QUOTE]

"

---

"If Roy jones Jnr retired after he won that heavy weight world title fight in 2003 , would he have been considered the best pound for pound (p4p) fighter in the world ever?"


What?

The thread asks if Jones could be considered the best ever p4p.

I disagreed, and gave my opinion of who is best p4p, Ali!

How is that not relevant?

If I said I consider Roy NOT to be the best p4p ever, but SRR to be, would that be relevant?

The thread is very precise in what it asks. And, as far as I know, when one asks who they think is best ever p4p, or asks if a certain fighter should be considered p4p best ever, I believe heavies are allowed into the discussion, are they not? Hence my selection of Ali, a HW.

you questioned jones' credibility asking who did he fight and when did he perform great ....

you also criticised his achievements at heavyweight .....

you gave him little credit....

you've praised toney many mnay times saying he's one of the best ever with the best jab, defence etc. etc.

jones easily beat toney at SMW

you say toney wasn't elite at LHW....that must mean he was elite at SMW or MW right?...

therefore jones beat toney at toney's best weight

it was jones' first fight at SMW and toney had a lot more experience...

i would definitely say jones is a much greater fighter than toney

i don't agree with your thinking on this one

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

walshb wrote: »

you questioned jones' credibility asking who did he fight and when did he perform great ....

you also criticised his achievements at heavyweight .....

you gave him little credit....

you've praised toney many mnay times saying he's one of the best ever with the best jab, defence etc. etc.

jones easily beat toney at SMW

you say toney wasn't elite at LHW....that must mean he was elite at SMW or MW right?...

therefore jones beat toney at toney's best weight

it was jones' first fight at SMW and toney had a lot more experience...

i would definitely say jones is a much greater fighter than toney

i don't agree with your thinking on this one

You really are just spoiling for an argument. The only poster on the thread.

Because I do not rate a win over Ruiz as special, you then flip this into me saying Roy is not great, or that I am not praising him? That is ridiculous.Toney too beat Ruiz, and I don't give him praise either.

And, you know it.

Why not have a go at the poster who called Roy a fraud?

Simpe: Is Roy or could Roy be considered best ever p4p?

I say no. WTF is so difficult with this?

Great fighter? Yes, great fighter above SMW, not to me.

P4P greatest? No, not for me.

Am I speaking Chinese?

Better than Toney p4p? For me, no. For others, yes. It's called a debate and discussion.

So, just to be real clear, and for you, RJJ is a great fighter. I do not rate him as great above SMW. I rate him as good-very good.

I rate Toney as good-very good above SMW.

I rate Toeny as elite at SMW. I also rate Roy as elite at the weight.

Why is this difficult, just for you?

cowzerp put it perfectly a post ago, and still you cannot see it. What is the point in the rtherad if because someone doesn't think Roy was p4p best, it illicits this reaction from you? Am I the only one who does not rate Roy p4p best in the world ever?

Am I the only one who doesn't rate Roy as GREAT above SMW?

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

tryingmybestt wrote: »

You really are just spoiling for an argument. The only poster on the thread.

Because I do not rate a win over Ruiz as special, you then flip this into me saying Roy is not great, or that I am not praising him? That is ridiculous.Toney too beat Ruiz, and I don't give him praise either.

And, you know it.

Why not have a go at the poster who called Roy a fraud?

Simpe: Is Roy or could Roy be considered best ever p4p?

I say no. WTF is so difficult with this?

Great fighter? Yes, great fighter above SMW, not to me.

P4P greatest? No, not for me.

Am I speaking Chinese?

Better than Toney p4p? For me, no. For others, yes. It's called a debate and discussion.

So, just to be real clear, and for you, RJJ is a great fighter. I do not rate him as great above SMW. I rate him as good-very good.

I rate Toney as good-very good above SMW.

I rate Toeny as elite at SMW. I also rate Roy as elite at the weight.

Why is this difficult, just for you?

cowzerp put it perfectly a post ago, and still you cannot see it. What is the point in the rtherad if because someone doesn't think Roy was p4p best, it illicits this reaction from you? Am I the only one who does not rate Roy p4p best in the world ever?

Am I the only one who doesn't rate Roy as GREAT above SMW?

why are you getting offended....i'm just debating and expressing my opinion

i don't agree with your reasoning and i'm explaining why

no need to get upset :eek:

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

walshb wrote: »

why are you getting offended....i'm just debating and expressing my opinion

i don't agree with your reasoning and i'm explaining why

no need to get upset :eek:

Not getting upset, just unsure why you are misquoting me a lot?

I said CLEARLY that Roy was great, and you then come on and imply that I did not?

That is a bit odd, don't you think.

I spelled out my position on the OP asking a specific question.

Roy is for me, not p4p the best ever. Maybe for you.

You then flip this into me slagging him, not praising him, NOT acknowledgeing him, all becaue above SMW he doen't float my boat.

MW-SMW, great fighter. Above, I don't fee he was, and I also don't feel Toney was.

You twisting this view is just plain odd.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

tryingmybestt wrote: »

Not getting upset, just unsure why you are misquoting me a lot?

I said CLEARLY that Roy was great, and you then come on and imply that I did not?

That is a bit odd, don't you think.

I spelled out my position on the OP asking a specific question.

Roy is for me, not p4p the best ever. Maybe for you.

You then flip this into me slagging him, not praising him, NOT acknowledgeing him, all becaue above SMW he doen't float my boat.

MW-SMW, great fighter. Above, I don't fee he was, and I also don't feel Toney was.

That is just plain odd.

ok i accept you said he was a great fighter

but the way you were questioning his achievements was implying you didnt really rate him that much, maybe not as much toney

this is what i responded too because i believe jones was a great fighter and way ahead of toney

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

walshb wrote: »

ok i accept you said he was a great fighter

but the way you were questioning his achievements was implying you didnt really rate him that much, maybe not as much toney

this is what i responded too because i believe jones was a great fighter and way ahead of toney

Let's me and you start fresh

Toney is one of my fav ever fighters.

Roy never really did it for me. Same as Monzon; I still think both were great.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

tryingmybestt wrote: »

Let's me and you start fresh

Toney is one of my fav ever fighters.

Roy never really did it for me. Same as Monzon; I still think both were great.

thats fair enough that you didnt love watching him....im like that too with some great fighters....but at the same time i respect what they have done even though i might not like their style etc.

megadodge

Better than Toney p4p? For me, no. For others, yes. It's called a debate and discussion.

This obsession with Toney has just reached laugable levels.

p4p was invented to guess what would happen if fighters were the same weight.
We don't have to imagine p4p in this case as they were both the same weight.
And guess what happened when they both fought in their prime at the same weight? Jones p!ssed on him!!! It's hard to give Toney one round in that fight.
But hey in the deluded world of Walshb that means Toney is better than Jones p4p.

?????????????????

Please don't reply with the ol' "at heavy I can't imagine anyone ko'ing Toney" line. That has absolutely nothing to do with who-beats-who. Jones proved that when they fought. Very clearly!!

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

This obsession with Toney has just reached laugable levels.

p4p was invented to guess what would happen if fighters were the same weight.
We don't have to imagine p4p in this case as they were both the same weight.
And guess what happened when they both fought in their prime at the same weight? Jones p!ssed on him!!! It's hard to give Toney one round in that fight.
But hey in the deluded world of Walshb that means Toney is better than Jones p4p.

?????????????????

Please don't reply with the ol' "at heavy I can't imagine anyone ko'ing Toney" line. That has absolutely nothing to do with who-beats-who. Jones proved that when they fought. Very clearly!!

Saddler beat Pep 3 from 4. Many think Pep is better. Why such a strong reply?

It's only boxing. Jones never floated my boat.

I though the Jones-Toney fight was poor.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Saddler beat Pep 3 from 4. Many think Pep is better. Why such a strong reply?

It's only boxing. Jones never floated my boat.

I THOUGHT THE tONE-jONES FIGHT WAS CRAP.

i dont think its relevant whether it was a good fight or crap!

what it proved was jones was better than toney at toney's optimum weight!

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

i dont think its relevant whether it was a good fight or crap!

what it proved was jones was better than toney at toney's optimum weight!

Yes, I agree. Jones was better that night at 168 lbs. One fight, Jones clearly won. No arguments from me.

Both great.

I am confused why mega is so full on

I said on another thread that Toney had a good jab and I got: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

We discussed that it was good, but neglected, like Roy's

A confused face may have beem more appropriate.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Yes, I agree. Jones was better that night at 168 lbs. One fight, Jones clearly won. No arguments from me.

Both great.

I am confused why mega is so full on

I said on another thread that Toney had a good jab and I got: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

We discussed that it was good, but neglected, like Roy's

A confused face may have neem more appropriate.

jones beats toney on any night at any weight....

his style is totally wrong for toney...jones fights from the outside and is so fast he is in and out before toney can react

if jones fought the wrong fight and fought on the inside every round then toney might have a small chance but even in their fight when they did fight on the inside jones got the better of it

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

jones beats toney on any night at any weight....

his style is totally wrong for toney...jones fights from the outside and is so fast he is in and out before toney can react

if jones fought the wrong fight and fought on the inside every round then toney might have a small chance but even in their fight when they did fight on the inside jones got the better of it

You cannot know at any weight, as they only fought at 168. But, you could be right. Why do you keep stating things so definitively?

I agree, and said so that Jones' style is wrong. At least it was in 1994.

at HW or CW or LH I would have liked to see them meet. Jones could well win again, but that is up for a good debate.

I mean, there are countless examples of a fighter losing clearly to another fighter in fight 1, and then reversing the result.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

You cannot know at any weight, as they only fought at 168. But, you could be right. Why do you keep stating things so definitively?

I agree, and said so that Jones' style is wrong. At least it was in 1994.

at HW or CW or LH I would have liked to see them meet. Jones could well win again, but that is up for a good debate.

I mean, there are countless examples of a fighter losing clearly to another fighter in fight 1, and then reversing the result.

in 1994 i don't feel jones was at his peak yet....i feel toney had reached his peak by that stage....jones was better at LHW and IMO would whop toney

I can't think of any fight that involved two elite fighters and where one fighter won a lopsided decision and then the other guy wins the return......ive seen the losing fighter win returns but the first fight might have been close or a lucky punch e.g. rachman v lewis but i cant recall any fight with 2 elite fighters and the first fight is won so convincingly

you say are countless examples....care to name a few??:eek:

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

in 1994 i don't feel jones was at his peak yet....i feel toney had reached his peak by that stage....jones was better at LHW and IMO would whop toney

I can't think of any fight that involved two elite fighters and where one fighter won a lopsided decision and then the other guy wins the return......ive seen the losing fighter win returns but the first fight might have been close or a lucky punch e.g. rachman v lewis but i cant recall any fight with 2 elite fighters and the first fight is won so convincingly

you say are countless examples....care to name a few??:eek:

Spinks was for most a clear winner over Ali. Ali then reversed the decision.

Anyway, we cannot know how a match at LH-CW or HW would go, as they never fought there.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Spinks was for most a clear winner over Ali. Ali then reversed the decision.

i clearly said 2 elite fighters !

you think a totally faded 36/37 year old ali with early signs of parkinsons setting in is classed as an elite fighter?

also you said 'countless' examples....wheres the rest.....google must be busy lol

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

i clearly said 2 elite fighters !

you think a totally faded 36/37 year old ali with early signs of parkinsons setting in is classed as an elite fighter?

also you said 'countless' examples....wheres the rest.....google must be busy lol

Well, Ali was the HW champ. Past peak, yes. Elite, as in the HW champ, he was this. Anyway, he reversed the decision.

He was the HW champ.

And, even past peak, as we say, he reversed the decision, kind of remarkable that, isn't it?

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Well, Ali was the HW champ. Past peak, yes. Elite, as in the HW champ, he was this. Anyway, he reversed the decision.

your classing a 36/37 year old ali with early signs of parkinsons as an elite fighter??

please answer yes or no

and elite is a great fighter.....would you class ruiz as elite?? you already slated him !

also i think you know exactly what i mean by 'elite'....you just cant think of any examples after you said 'countless' and now your being backed into a corner and digging a hole deeper and deeper......sounds familiar

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

your classing a 36/37 year old ali with early signs of parkinsons as an elite fighter??

please answer yes or no

Get a dictionary. Elite and at peak are not the same.

He was HW champ. Ranked as one of the elite at the time. I am sure Ring had him as top three.

Past his best, YES.

Still makes it even more remarkable that he reversed the decision.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Get a dictionary. Elite and at peak are not the same.

He was HW champ. Ranked as one of the elite at the time.

Past his best, YES.

Still makes it even more remarkable that he reversed the decision.

on that basis you feel ruiz is an elite fighter.

ok lets go back to the original point......i dont know any situation where a fight involved 2 GREAT FIGHTER was won by lopsided decision in fight 1 and then was won by other guy in return bout.....as already said excluding lucky punches and close decisions

obviously you knew exactly what i meant by elite but when you were caught out once again as talking S**t then you are now trying to confuse things by sauing 'elite' is equal to champion

in any other threads you classed elite as being p4p best and now you change the meaning to try and back up your bogus argument:rolleyes:

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

on that basis you feel ruiz is an elite fighter.
:

Yes. At the time he was considered by the powers that be as an elite.

Seriously, that is not me, that is the world of boxing. Ruiz, how, I don't know, was HW champ. I guess that says more about the state of the opposition.

But, it does not take away from the fact that at THAT TIME, Ruiz was considered elite.

Now, does that mean I think he was a good champ? No. I do not have to think this. Same way Primo Carnera was elite years back. Do I think he was a great champ, no.

I also don't believe a 36/37 year old Ali was close to his best, and for that reason, was not IMO A great HW champ at that time.

But, again, the powers that be had Ali as champ. Rated as elite

Seriously, and no offence meant, you need to separate the two words. Elite does not necessarily mean GREAT, or at peak.

In 1978 I think it was, maybe earlier, Ali was considered as elite by the powers that be.

And, finally, my view of elite may well differ. Elite to me is best of the best. Ruiz was at the time the "so called" best.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Yes. At the time he was considered by the powers that be as an elite.

Seriously, that is not me, that is the world of boxing. Ruiz, how, I don't know, was HW champ. I guess that says more about the state of the opposition.

But, it does not take away from the fact that at THAT TIME, Ruiz was considered elite.

Now, does that mean I think he was a good champ? No. I do not have to think this. Same way Primo Carnera was elite years back. Do I think he was a great champ, no.

I also don't believe a 36/37 year old Ali was close to his best, and for that reason, was not IMO A HW champ at that time.

But, again, the powerS that be had Ali as champ. Rated as elite

Seriously, and no offence meant, you need to separate the two wordS. Elite does not necessarily mean GREAT, or at peak.

In 1078 I think it was, maybe earlier, Ali was considered as elite by the powers that be.

you knew what i meant by elite

we've used this expression many times in the past to represent top p4p fighters only such as duran, JCC etc.

your only becming technical to confise the issue because your losing the debate about your point of toney winning a rematch against jones and tere being 'countless' examples of this happening

your an expert of confusing the thread once it's not going your way or your point has been exposed as making no sense yet again

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

you knew what i meant by elite

we've used this expression many times in the past to represent top p4p fighters only such as duran, JCC etc.

your only becming technical to confise the issue because your losing the debate about your point of toney winning a rematch against jones and tere being 'countless' examples of this happening

your an expert of confusing the thread once it's not going your way or your point has been exposed as making no sense yet again

So, why are you continuing a debate with me if it's causing you problems, or if I make no sense.
It makes no sense for someone to debate/argue with someone who makes no sense, so who's worse?

I don't get that.

My god, who loses a debate? This is like 6 year olds comment.

Threads like this can offer wide ranging views, and now "I'm losing."

Ok, I'm losing, poor me.

BTW, never said Toney wins a rematch. I said it's open for debate. Yet again misquoting me. Unreal.

nacho libre

Speaking of Toney and Roy Jones, this clip never fails to amuse me(the 47 second mark):

I will say though that fight showed Toney could sure take a punch.

colly10

nacho libre wrote: »

Speaking of Toney and Roy Jones, this clip never fails to amuse me(the 47 second mark):

I will say though that fight showed Toney could sure take a punch.

Where's the clip

nacho libre

colly10 wrote: »

Where's the clip

haha. here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Osxyd7h6N-0

walshb

nacho libre wrote: »

Speaking of Toney and Roy Jones, this clip never fails to amuse me(the 47 second mark):

I will say though that fight showed Toney could sure take a punch.

He sure could, but with that punch I think it was more a case of getting hit, and being a bit off balance. It wasn't a particularly hard shot. I just never liked the fight, and no, not because JT lost, but the fight itself just lacked zip, fire, passion.

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

He sure could, but with that punch I think it was more a case of getting hit, and being a bit off balance. It wasn't a particularly hard shot. I just never liked the fight, and no, not because JT lost, but the fight itself just lacked zip, fire, passion.

While the punch wasn't particularly hard, I still think a lot of fighters would have been knocked out after getting caught by a clean punch like that. Toney took a couple of stiffer shots after that particular punch as well.

Anyway it is a bit sad watching that video when you consider what has become of Roy in recent years.