Dog biting itself

Vince32

As the title says, my dog keeps biting itself around the hind quarters, and lately her forward paws and legs too.

I don't know if she is just bored or if it's fleas ( just gave a flea dosage Advocate 3 days ago). When we were playing I noticed she has tiny pit marks on the pink of her belly.

I found a test for fleas, standing the dog on a light sheet of card / paper and rubbing her coat, watching for tiny black dots that may fall onto the card, flea poop, and there was a few. This could be dirt caught in her fur or the other.

So I guess I want to know if its fleas or something else entirely, and if people think it could be fleas, what product is 100% guaranteed to kill them off.

I read it could take months to rid her of an infestation (larva / pupae), and I hate to see her itching all the time.

On the other hand, if Advocate, is 100% effective, what else might be the cause of her discomfort?

Thanks for replies.

andreac

It could be the food also. What food is she on?

anniehoo

andreac wrote: »

It could be the food also. What food is she on?

That or other allergens. If fleas are ruled out it could be an Atopic Dermatitis whereby their bodies produce IgE antibodies (allergic response) to certain things e.g. house dust mites, pollen, grain,feathers etc.

If its not fleas, mites and not your food, then you can get allergy testing done just like in humans. Its quite expensive though (€150+) but it can identify the likely causes.If it persists id try and find a vet actually interested in dermatology rather than an all rounder.

Vince32

Select gold junior, it's a premo dog food, and won awards in Germany for its content and nutrition.

I don't know if you speak German, but this is the stuff.
http://www.select-gold.de/fuer-den-hund/?tx_uhproducts_pi1[lcid]=1&cHash=fbc9046a462df221c9bce4405d40877a

I know there is a way to translate pages, I just don't know how to do it, the food came recommended (they always do). I could try snap the ingredient list for you, but there is 0% fillers, in this food, and I got it for that very reason.

Bannasidhe

Vince32 wrote: »

As the title says, my dog keeps biting itself around the hind quarters, and lately her forward paws and legs too.

I don't know if she is just bored or if it's fleas ( just gave a flea dosage Advocate 3 days ago). When we were playing I noticed she has tiny pit marks on the pink of her belly.

I found a test for fleas, standing the dog on a light sheet of card / paper and rubbing her coat, watching for tiny black dots that may fall onto the card, flea poop, and there was a few. This could be dirt caught in her fur or the other.

So I guess I want to know if its fleas or something else entirely, and if people think it could be fleas, what product is 100% guaranteed to kill them off.

I read it could take months to rid her of an infestation (larva / pupae), and I hate to see her itching all the time.

On the other hand, if Advocate, is 100% effective, what else might be the cause of her discomfort?

Thanks for replies.

Could be a number of things. Allergies are quite a common cause - food, fleas and dust mites being the main causes.

If she persists with the licking/chewing she could end up doing herself some serious damage - I have a Jack who started this and she ended up with a paw 4 times it's normal size over the course of a single weekend, plus she has bald patches on her hind quarters and sides from all the licking. We tried a collar, but somehow she manages to get it off (would need CCTV everywhere to find out exactly how!).
It's now costing me a fortune in special shampoos (27 quid a bottle!), steroids, weekly vet visits and antibiotics.

Take her to the vet as soon as possible and get a skin scraping done would be my advice.

andreac

Vince, just because it says its a good food doesnt mean it will suit your dog or wont cause problems.

Hills and Royal Canin are so called good foods:rolleyes: and both give my Rottie severe hot spots if he even gets a small amount so i wouldnt let that make you think the food is ok.

ISDW

Which select gold junior, because the lamb, salmon, rice and potato has the first ingredient as rice flour (40%), I wouldn't feed something that has any kind of grain or rice etc as the first ingredient.

kenon

My cousin's dog licks and nips herself around the paws to the point where the dog has developed bad scarring.

The vet said it was because the dog was a self-harmer...

andreac

I was just going to post that too ISDW. The main ingredient is rice flour 32%, not meat which would concern me as i would always try and feed a food that has meat as the first ingredient.

Vince32

Ok thanks for that, lets say for the moment it's the food causing the irritation, how do I go about choosing a food that won't have the same effect?

EDIT: Just seen the posts form ISDW and andreac, I'll be changing the food right away, any recommendations?

Basically I'm going through a process of elimination, I'm not sure the flea treatment has worked 100% after I did the test on the white paper... So is there a flea treatment that is guaranteed? (on the box they all say 100%) but is one better than another?

Then my next stop was to look at her environment, plants in the garden ( i know some are poison to dogs if they eat the flower)

andreac

What kind of budget do you have for food, monthly or per bag etc?

Vince32

Well... I guess we could stretch to 30E /Pm of even 40 if need be, The Select gold is 24E per 4 kg.

subway

24 for 4kg works out at the very very expensive end of things. (90eu per 15kg)
buy a 15kg bag, it will cost around 50-60eu depending on quality.

try http://dogfooddirect.ie/

someone more knowledgeable might recommend a brand fro you.
high meat content is the main indicator, followed by nutrient breakdown (i believe)

andreac

€24 per 4kg? :eek: Thats very expensive.

You can get a good quality food, a 15kg bag for around 40/45euro. Im feeding Clinivet which is currently on offer in Petmania for 41euro for a 15kg bag.

lucycat

OP I would recommend getting the allergy testing done - my Havanese was going through a phase of licking and biting her paws and the vet first asked us to change her food (she suggested beef, lamb and game as a lot of dogs can be more sensitive to chicken and poultry), we went organic on it and it still wasn't helping. We asked the vet to do the allergy testing and just be prepared for the cost if you go this route, it ended up costing us in the region of €400, but for that we got full panels on insects, food and environmental stuff, and in my opinion, it was worth every penny.

Turns out Izzy is highly allergic to beef, lamb, house dust mites, birch and ash trees. We changed her diet, got special shampoo which eliminates dust mites and her paws have improved 100%.

The vet had also suggested it was due to stress and/or lonliness and this played a big part in us deciding to get a friend for her, so between eliminating the allergens and getting her a doggy buddy (as opposed to her old playmates of two cats and a rabbit) she is much happier.

Good luck with your girl, hope you get the problem solved quickly.

Vince32

Righto, thanks everyone I'm off to visit a few food stores, and see if I can find a better food for less (or more) cash.

First ingredient meat ! I'll be double checking everything, I'll probably start buying online from now on, but for right now I want to start changing her food today.

Love and hugs for everyone

subway

dont change the food too quickly, it could upset their digestive system.
buy a new food, and introduce it slowly over a week or two.
ie, mix it with the current food, gradaully increasing the amount each day until the old food is completely replaced.

andreac

Change very gradually, not suddenly.

Arden Grange is a good food too and its on that site.

Kattra

I had also hot spot and this licking/biting issue with my Brian when I had him on Select Gold. Switched to Barking Heads and the issue is gone.
The issue won`t fix itself in a few days, so better take your time to choose the new food. You wouldn`t want to change it too quickly anyway.

reeta

Select Gold had a dreadful effect on my dog, springer/cocker spaniel.It totally disagreed with her giving her constant "runs" and sick stomach. She is on Red Mills supreme and the difference is unbelievable. The food might not suit your dog.

Vince32

Righto, I just got back from the dog food depot, and I asked specifically for a meat based dry food, and this is the ingredient list on what I settled on. I have a 2kg (test baggy) cost 10.75E.

Cost is not the issue, I just want to know what you guys think of it

Fresh Chicken 22%
Dried Chicken min 21%
Brown Rice min 21%
Ground oats
Dried Salmon min 10%
Potato
Chicken fat
Sunflower oil
Dried egg
Salmon oil
Minerals
Dried Tomato
Dried Carrot
Natural Seaweed
Vitamins
Glucosamine
Chondroitin
MSM.

Typical analysis.
Protein 28%
Fat 18%
Fibre 2.5%
Ash 8%
Moisture 8%
Vit A 20000 iu/kg
Vit D3 1800
Vit E 690
copper 11mg/kg
Omega 6 4.4%
Omega 3 1%

andreac

Whats the name of it?

Vince32

I'll tell you :P if you tell me what you think of the recipe

Vince32

Barking heads "puppy days"

medium dog 12-25 kg - 3-6 months 140-375 grams per day

andreac

It looks very good, the fact that meat is listed as first ingredient is a good thing. Ive heard good reports about the barking heads food.

pinkdaisy

Another thing to bear in mind would be her anal glands. Some dogs self-mutilate if the glands are full since they can't get to the glands themselves. Usually starts around the hindquarters but I have seen dogs biting their forepaws and other parts of their body due to this also.

Vince32

well its wait and see now, if the symptoms are reduced or stop altogether, we're onto a winner.

Thanks to everyone for their help

promethius42

lucycat wrote: »

OP I would recommend getting the allergy testing done - my Havanese was going through a phase of licking and biting her paws and the vet first asked us to change her food (she suggested beef, lamb and game as a lot of dogs can be more sensitive to chicken and poultry), we went organic on it and it still wasn't helping. We asked the vet to do the allergy testing and just be prepared for the cost if you go this route, it ended up costing us in the region of €400, but for that we got full panels on insects, food and environmental stuff, and in my opinion, it was worth every penny.

Turns out Izzy is highly allergic to beef, lamb, house dust mites, birch and ash trees. We changed her diet, got special shampoo which eliminates dust mites and her paws have improved 100%.

The vet had also suggested it was due to stress and/or lonliness and this played a big part in us deciding to get a friend for her, so between eliminating the allergens and getting her a doggy buddy (as opposed to her old playmates of two cats and a rabbit) she is much happier.

Good luck with your girl, hope you get the problem solved quickly.

I big +1 to that post. We had a very similar experience. Don't take the chance and get get it sorted, you'll be glad you do.

Vince32

If she keeps it up over the next 7-10 days I'll book the allergy test, I want to see if the change in food has any effect first, as it is the most likely cause. I think the high rice flour content in the old food is the culprit, since huskies in general can develop dermatitis.

I'm not discounting anything at this point, just going through the process of elimination.

LucyBliss

I had my three on Hill's Science Plan because the vet recommended it and I thought, well it must be good. Two of the dogs ended up having bad reactions to it; Jack would do as you described, Vince, and I was checking for fleas, for irritations and cuts, thought he was bored, walked the legs off him, played with him but couldn't fathom the problem.
Then Meg started throwing up which freaked me out, I'll admit, because the last time a dog of mine had vomiting, it turned out to be cancer so I was a bit OMGWTF?!

After various tests that turned up nothing, they wanted to do a biopsy and I thought that was a bit severe for my poor Meg. As it happened, I got talking to a friend who suggested food allergies and I did my research and realised that every food she'd been on, including the Hills Recovery food, all had maize in it. Cue more research on how maize can affect dogs and I realised that it's not always an immediate reaction to the maize, it can build up over time, and I also recognised the symptoms in my two. Rosie, the third dog, wasn't affected at all. I switched them over to Barking Heads and we have had no problems since.

The vet didn't believe me actually when I said it was a maize allergy and defended the Hill's food. But the important thing is that the dogs are in good health now.
I didn't change the food slowly, I just gave it to them but I am fortunate in that they're not fussy dogs when it comes to food. They will eat any type of dog food you put in front of them and it doesn't knock a stir out of them.

I like the Barking Heads range and it's got no additives or preservatives and it has a good meat content so I hope it does the trick for your girl too. I find it pretty affordable too, compared to some of the other brands.

barbiegirl

Our retriever cross was quite similar always biting at herself and licking, and also her eyes and nose were in absolute bits. The vet said allergies.

We have found that the advantix sets her off, she seems to be allergic and really goes at herself when it's applied so now looking at some alternatives. She's overdue a treatment.

On the food, we switched her to Robbies and the difference is massive. She's been on it over a year now and no vet visits for eyes, nose or skin. We had thought we were in for years of problems with hot spots and the vet had said if it kept up she would have to be on steroids full time.

Vince32

yeah from what I can read on it, and from the posters here, it defo seems like a food allergy / reaction, if "barking heads" does the job that will be her food for the foreseeable future, regardless of cost, I can cut another pack of cigarettes out of my week to make up the difference (2 packs a week). It looks like it has a good composition so if it works I'll be happy.

littlebug

Vince if things don't improve do keep in mind to get her glands checked . My dog had the tail chewed to bleeding constantly when I got her and once her glands were emtpied it stopped. She needs them done regularly and I can tell when she starts getting a bit antsy.
I've just started mine on Barking Heads too. Seems to be working well so far

Vince32

Oh I will, we're going back to the vet on the 9th of feb, if it hasn't resolved or it gets worse we will book a sooner app.

Cherry Blossom

Vince32 wrote: »

Barking heads "puppy days"

Lol - I knew the exact one it was as soon as I saw the ingredients list, before anyone suggests I get a life this is what I'm planning to feed my new pup - at least it will be until I get to the stage where both dogs can be fed together as her ladyship can't have chicken so I don't want her robbing the puppy's food.

I know you mentioned fleas but has the pup been wormed recently? Sometimes puppies can have a high worm burden which might cause them distress.

Vince32

Yeah AJ, She has had "Advocate" apparently it de-fleas and something gets absorbed into the blood stream to de-worm. It's an all in 1 thing the VA gave to me from the clinic.

I have my doubts about it, as all the worming was in pill form for my last 2 dogs, but I guess this is progress at work.
I dosed her on monday and I guess I have to have faith that it's working, we're both going to the vet on 9th feb for a check up and more flea / worming but it might be sooner if the symptoms don't subside.

I'll give it a week, and introduce the new food, hopefully it will all calm down, tonight she was sitting on my lap and went at her legs again :S to early to tell if it's the food or something else.

axle108

I also use Advocate, but the vet recommended to use Drontal plus as well, it is very affective for Tapeworms.

Heres a link i found, has a section on worming and info on fleas. Might be of use to you.

http://www.victoriavets.co.uk/PuppyPack.pdf.pdf

Vince32

Good information there, so thanks for that

Doesn't advocate cover tapeworms also? I thought it did, Drontal x2 a year doesn't sound so bad tbh.

Cheers

axle108

From what the vet told me as far as i can remember, advocate doesnt cover tapeworm. Your post got me thinking on worming my dog , so i found another link which explains the difference between drontal and advocate.
Your dogs problem might be nothing to do with worms, could be the food as you said or something else. Best of luck sorting it soon.




http://www.ashwoodvet.co.uk/our-practice/services-facilities/service.php?Name=Worming

The Sweeper

You can check if it's fleas by taking the dirt you collect from the cardboard test, and squashing and smearing it with a damp tissue. Flea poo is full of congested blood so the black spots will turn into little red smears. If it does: bingo, fleas.

Spot on flea treatments treat the flea lifecycle by causing infertility in fleas so they don't reproduce. It's a good long-term solution. If your dog is heavily infested, the current fleas will keep biting after the spot-on treatment. Pop into the vet clinic and ask about a capstar tablet - a pill that kills every flea on the dog within an hour or so of being administered. Make sure it can be given to the dog alongside whatever other meds you've treated her with.

Alternatively, give your dog a bath and comb-out with a medicated flea shampoo to kill the fleas on her.

You need to wash her bedding and wash or vacuum any soft furnishings she's allowed on and give the whole place a good vacuum just to be safe. Try restricting her to her bed in the kitchen for a couple of weeks until the fleas are all gone - only because she may drop some on the carpet or couch, and then you'll wash her and then as she passes back through the house the fleas will hitch a lift back on her again.

You don't have to go mental scrubbing the place down with bleach or anything, but a bit of extra care can help break the infestation cycle all the more quickly.

Vince32

I think its subsiding, she rarely goes at it any more, she has a nibble at her back leg and licks her forward paw 1-2 times a day, down from almost constantly. When I stop her biting at herself she doesn't protest, she just sort of agrees with me to stop it.

We are almost 40-60 with the new food and I have to report firstly she absolutely loves it, and the irritation although still present is diminishing with great speed.

I had a moment today which made me smile, she was barking in the kitchen, and when I went to investigate, she was sat in front of her food bowl patiently waiting for me to fill it

I put 40g of the new food into the kong wobbler and let her have at it, so far no sloppy 2's and looking a bit more energetic, I'm really pleased with the results.

I'll try the smearing thing on the card test in the morning, and if I see bloody streaks I'll take your advice. Thanks for that little titbit.

Vince32

Just had a go at trying to smear some of the black flakes that drop off her, and only one went brownish, more the colour of mud than blood. the rest didn't smear at all.

So I'm fairly confident it's not fleas, today she had her breakfast with no fuss and was bouncing off the leash at 26 feet. I let her off for 10 mins in a large open green ( about 3 soccer pitches in size, and she ran a figure 8 around me for about a minute at really high speeds, then settled into the off leash position.

I don't usually let her off at all, but this food ( im assuming ) is like rocket fuel, once she burnt off her burst energy she was a lot more happy and controllable.

She had another quick nibble at her leg when we got home, but she stopped before I could correct her. Things are back to normal, ....I hope.

andreac

Vince, is she not a husky? If so you really shouldnt be letting her off in open spaces, its asking for trouble....

Vince32

RE: Off leash training, I only ever do this in areas I feel are safe and have low to nil traffic, or chance of escape. I wouldn't risk a dogs safety, thanks for the post.

Just noticed a great food from barking heads called "bad hair day", even with their silly names for their foods, I'm starting to think these guys are top notch food makers.

Bad Hair day - £65 / 20kg // £3.25 / kg : http://www.barkingheads.co.uk/for-dogs/lamb-rice-dog-food-bhd.html

I think this is going to be the adult food I use for my husky, it looks great, good content, has anyone tried this? or know anything about it?

andreac

Vince32 wrote: »

RE: Off leash training, I only ever do this in areas I feel are safe and have low to nil traffic, or chance of escape. I wouldn't risk a dogs safety, thanks for the post

But it wasnt an enclosed area so you really are asking for trouble there, i wouldnt be taking one chance at all if it was my dog. The advice is there regarding Huskies, i think you are putting your dog at huge risk by doing this, but its your dog.

DogsFirst

barbiegirl wrote: »

Our retriever cross was quite similar always biting at herself and licking, and also her eyes and nose were in absolute bits. The vet said allergies.

We have found that the advantix sets her off, she seems to be allergic and really goes at herself when it's applied so now looking at some alternatives. She's overdue a treatment.

On the food, we switched her to Robbies and the difference is massive. She's been on it over a year now and no vet visits for eyes, nose or skin. We had thought we were in for years of problems with hot spots and the vet had said if it kept up she would have to be on steroids full time.

Hi Barbie. All the symptoms of a food allergy, as eyes and nose effected it is almost definitely gluten (wheat, barley, rye). White coated breeds and especially goldies (amongst others) are notorious for gluten sensitivity. I'm gluten intolerant and when I eat it my eyes stream and nose blocks up (basic mucous / IgA immune reaction). Most of the time this allergy will manifest on the skin of your dog as hot spots, itchy red paws, lick granulomas, ear infections and maddening itch.

The robbies move worked as it is gluten free. You need to treat your goldie as having something like a nut allergy (no cheap pet store treats). One bit of gluten will set you back weeks.

You're lucky you made the move, lots of vets move owners from one food to the other while they try to find the "mysterious allergy" (which 99% gluten or else cooked protein hence beef and chicken are number 1 and 2 known allergies in dogs! Like cows being allergic to grass). Most of these dogs are on a cocktail of drugs to quench the hyper immune system before landing on the ever expensive, scientifically engineered, nutritionally defunct prescribed diet which cost 50cents a pellet.

Include lots of oily fish for omega 3 (mackerel, herring, sardines not in oil) to help that immune system recover (also it will aid skin/coat repair)

Cherry Blossom

Vince32 wrote: »

I think this is going to be the adult food I use for my husky, it looks great, good content, has anyone tried this? or know anything about it?

I feed to my Westie, it's the only food I have managed to find that doesn't have some description of undesirable effect after feeding it for a while, it would be quite expensive for bigger dogs though! As I only buy a small bag at a time it costs me no more than any other good food as they are all around the same price for small bags.