Mortgage write offs for all, silly billies to have debt written off

Rabidlamb

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/banks-will-take-back-homes-under-mortgage-writeoff-plan-2986613.html

BANKS will take back homes and tie struggling homeowners to years of repayments in return for writing off their mortgage debt.

But the new debt-settlement scheme will not be a debt "free-for-all" as those who tap into it will lose their homes and still have to make repayments based on what they can now afford for between five and seven years before they have their debts cleared by the bank.

Finance Minister Michael Noonan is understood to be so happy with the plans to include mortgage debt in the new non-court arrangements that he and Mr Shatter agreed to hold a one-to-one meeting to sort their differences.

It is estimated that around 25,000 households have mortgages and other debts that they have no hope of ever being able to pay back.

It is estimated that there are between 6,000 and 12,000 mortgage holders who can pay, but won't. These people are known as strategic defaulters.

The free gravy train is about to arrive, choo choo.
Who will pick up the tab for these bad debt write offs ?...
The Magic Money Fairy of course.
This is all great:rolleyes:

theteal

"strategic defaulters" - that's much more civil than the term I had in mind!

This is going to get messy - then again, it's the indo so it's probably completely fabricated

omahaid

BANKS will take back homes and tie struggling homeowners to years of repayments in return for writing off their mortgage debt.

But the new debt-settlement scheme will not be a debt "free-for-all" as those who tap into it will lose their homes and still have to make repayments based on what they can now afford for between five and seven years before they have their debts cleared by the bank.

Finance Minister Michael Noonan is understood to be so happy with the plans to include mortgage debt in the new non-court arrangements that he and Mr Shatter agreed to hold a one-to-one meeting to sort their differences.

It is estimated that around 25,000 households have mortgages and other debts that they have no hope of ever being able to pay back.

It is estimated that there are between 6,000 and 12,000 mortgage holders who can pay, but won't. These people are known as strategic defaulters.

Sounds kinda gay

bnt

I remember asking about "strategic defaults" here a few years ago, because it was happening in the USA, and the answer was "oh, no, it can't happen here, it's against the law!" That right?

What should happen is: alongside this measure, the banks / NAMA have to make a huge write-off in their book asset values. It's those "book values" that have allowed them to get away with the illusion that they're theoretically solvent and worthy of a bailout.

It would then mean that investors who lent them money with the aim of making money - the unsecured bondholders - would get the proverbial "haircut". And so on down the line. It does no-one any long-term good for the "book" value of assets to be so much higher than the real market value - whatever those assets are (houses, mortgages, bonds, etc.) It's time to get back to reality.

Chips Lovell

But the new debt-settlement scheme will not be a debt "free-for-all" as those who tap into it will lose their homes and still have to make repayments based on what they can now afford for between five and seven years before they have their debts cleared by the bank.

Some free gravy train that is.

Ickle Magoo

Free gravy train? The banks will own their house which can be sold out from under them - pushing people who genuinely can no longer afford their mortgage and can't sell their homes into paying both rent and repayments for up to seven years...I'd imagine they'd also then be blacklisted.

Not exactly a magical fairy wipe-the-slate-clean write-off.

MugMugs

So I can start off my coke habit and screw the mortgage? Sweet! 2003 here I come!

HellFireClub

Ah yes, the "Silly Billies" who worked for 20 years, had the audacity to buy a home for themselves and their family, and then lost their jobs, the selfish c*nts...

MugMugs

HellFireClub wrote: »

Ah yes, the "Silly Billies" who worked for 20 years, had the audacity to buy a home for themselves and their family, and then lost their jobs, the selfish c*nts...

I pity them. But people not paying and enjoying nice holidays and nice cars..... I don't pity them.

Sindri

Is this spam?

AngryBollix

HellFireClub wrote: »

Ah yes, the "Silly Billies" who worked for 20 years, had the audacity to buy a home for themselves and their family, and then lost their jobs, the selfish c*nts...

The same stupid c*nts who made a stupid investment and blame everyone but themselves

Plazaman

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Who will pick up the tab for these bad debt write offs

Thank you for paying your €100 Household Charge. We apologise that we may have mislead you into thinking this money would be going to local councils for local services but unfortunatley the money pit seems to have somehow gotten deeper due to writing off mortgage debts left, right and centre.

Not to worry, since you paid your €100 this year without a whimper, sure €250 next year won't bother you that much.

Don't worry, our financial and accounting advisers know what they are doing and know whats best for the country and work 24/7 (except for 11am-11.30am Coco Pops break, 1pm - 2pm Din Dins, 3pm - 4pm Nap Times, 5pm - 5.30pm The Barney Show)

smash

AngryBollix wrote: »

The same stupid c*nts who made a stupid investment and blame everyone but themselves

Sorry but the whole "stupid investment" thing just doesn't wash. They wanted their own house, lost their job and now can't afford it.

Take this scenario and multiple it by a few thousand and it's what happens when people buy cars every day! You don't hear people giving out about that.

SEPT 23 1989

Rabidlamb wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/banks-will-take-back-homes-under-mortgage-writeoff-plan-2986613.html



The free gravy train is about to arrive, choo choo.
Who will pick up the tab for these bad debt write offs ?...
The Magic Money Fairy of course.
This is all great:rolleyes:

We have already picked up the tab for this when the banks were recapitalised

Rabidlamb

But the new debt-settlement scheme will not be a debt "free-for-all" as those who tap into it will lose their homes and still have to make repayments based on what they can now afford for between five and seven years before they have their debts cleared by the bank.

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Some free gravy train that is.

The additional repayments will be based on means & is decided by some independent body.
This is Ireland, people will claim the poor mouth & "fail" to inform the bank or body when their situation improves.
Great success.

Claasman

smash wrote: »

Sorry but the whole "stupid investment" thing just doesn't wash. They wanted their own house, lost their job and now can't afford it.

Take this scenario and multiple it by a few thousand and it's what happens when people buy cars every day! You don't hear people giving out about that.

just cos people want something, doesn't mean they can afford it like...

HellFireClub

AngryBollix wrote: »

The same stupid c*nts who made a stupid investment and blame everyone but themselves

People made the same "investments", insofar as people wanted to buy somewhere to live, for centuries and there wasn't a problem, it's the most human thing in the world to do to want to have security of tenure for you and your family. Given the inherently backward nature of this country and the gombeen element that exists in this country, I wouldn't want to expose myself or my family to the kind of ruthlessness and childishness that can be evident from buy to let landlords and amateur property investors/speculators, who might decide to move you on if they thought they could get another 100 Euro a month from someone else.

These are the speculative parasites who caused this problem, not the decent Joe or Josephine who just wanted to have a bit of security over his/her head for himself/herself and their family.

smash

Claasman wrote: »

just cos people want something, doesn't mean they can afford it like...

They could afford it. That's the thing.

HellFireClub

Another point that seems lost on a lot of people in this country... If you bought a property within the last 10 years, it was the bank who instructed their own valuation team to value the property, it was the bank who ultimately signed off on that valuation as having been a valuation that would stand up over the lifetime of the mortgage that the bank was giving you.

But yet now that their valuation was simply wrong, they want to be able to pull the customer over the coals for the full amount?!? The customer didn't put the valuation on the property, it was the banks who decided that the property had a long term value of what they were lending you to buy it at. Yet when the sh*t hits the fan, they are not responsible, I don't buy that for a second...

smash

HellFireClub wrote: »

it was the banks who decided that the property had a long term value of what they were lending you to buy it at.

That's not entirely true. They know full well the value could rise or fall, same with a car loan. They know the value will drop but they'll take the chance that you'll repay the full amount.

Tordelback

Not fishing for sympathy or anything like, just throwing out a personal anecdote by way of balance.

When my wife and I bought our 1000sq ft 3-bed terrace in the fringes of Dublin 24 in 2004, we did so with the intention of raising our family in it. We took an 85% mortgage, using our savings for the 15%, at a value of just under 3 times our combined salaries. Our combined total income is now 1/3 of what it was then, between unemployment and savage pay-cuts, and with all our savings now gone we have little hope of keeping up our repayments to the end of this year, and the supposed market value of the house (if you could sell it at all) is considerably less than the remaining mortgage . Incidentally we have no car- or holiday-loans to cover, driving a 14 year old 1 litre, and holidaying in a tent in Wicklow or Galway.

We were stupid, yes, but c*nts? Up to you.

Sindri

HellFireClub wrote: »

Another point that seems lost on a lot of people in this country... If you bought a property within the last 10 years, it was the bank who instructed their own valuation team to value the property, it was the bank who ultimately signed off on that valuation as having been a valuation that would stand up over the lifetime of the mortgage that the bank was giving you.

But yet now that their valuation was simply wrong, they want to be able to pull the customer over the coals for the full amount?!? The customer didn't put the valuation on the property, it was the banks who decided that the property had a long term value of what they were lending you to buy it at. Yet when the sh*t hits the fan, they are not responsible, I don't buy that for a second...

This is what I find most angering about the whole ordeal...


But, we need the banks, they're too powerful and integral to our society.

jackal

HellFireClub wrote: »

Another point that seems lost on a lot of people in this country... If you bought a property within the last 10 years, it was the bank who instructed their own valuation team to value the property, it was the bank who ultimately signed off on that valuation as having been a valuation that would stand up over the lifetime of the mortgage that the bank was giving you.

But yet now that their valuation was simply wrong, they want to be able to pull the customer over the coals for the full amount?!? The customer didn't put the valuation on the property, it was the banks who decided that the property had a long term value of what they were lending you to buy it at. Yet when the sh*t hits the fan, they are not responsible, I don't buy that for a second...

Nobody is asking you to buy it, mortgages are FULL RECOURSE in Ireland, and although secured on the property, they can pursue the borrower for the outstanding amount if selling the property does not clear the loan, so really, the banks thought they were operating in a win-win environment.

Also keep in mind the (re-elected multiple times by the people of this country) government was in property pimp mode, and were asleep at the wheel, letting the banks do whatever they wanted.

Anyway, what do you propose? Do you want to keep the asset while being forgiven the loan by any chance? :pac:

smash

jackal wrote: »

Also keep in mind the (re-elected multiple times by the people of this country) government was in property pimp mode, and were asleep at the wheel, letting the banks do whatever they wanted.

Then they were f*cked out though.

fedor.2.

Woo hoo

jackal

smash wrote: »

Then they were f*cked out though.

Does that mean we should tear up any contracts made before the new government came in?

TheZohanS

Anyone that's interested in house prices click here. House prices are now at 2001 levels and still dropping.

pickarooney

Who came up with the idea of a mortgage in the first place? It's a terribly flawed system. A house is the last thing in the world you want to take a massive gamble with so why is not standard practice for people to save up until they can afford to buy a house, the same as it is with everything else?

Phill Ewinn

This will cost FF/FG feck all really and make people feel ''a part of'' the global debt crisis. As if to justify the Anglo bailout osme years after that criminal act.

Hope everyone signs up for this. There'll be all kinds including those driving merc jeeps to the dole office, or driving a taxi on a Saturday while signing on etc....

Chance away people. Everyone please apply and give those government people something to do.

Buford Tannen

AngryBollix wrote: »

The same stupid c*nts who made a stupid investment and blame everyone but themselves

The same stupid comment made by the same stupid c**ts who probably still live at home with mammy & daddy

flanders1979

Both our incomes are down roughly 30% because other peoples debt have to be paid.
I realise that its a selfish way of looking at it.
But we could be able to afford to buy our own home in a few years barring more disasters. I don't know whether I should be talking to the bank or stocking up on tinned food. Maybe a bit of both.
I always felt like crap when my friends working in higher paid jobs told me how much the value of their houses had gone up as I despaired that I would be renting forever.

smash

jackal wrote: »

Does that mean we should tear up any contracts made before the new government came in?

I really don't see your point here? You complained about the old government even though they've been f*cked out and now you're throwing around silly comments.

theg81der

Yea I still don`t understand when people signed a document for 25 or 30 years for god knows how much thought they were fecking doing!!! So everyone is stupid bankers and loads of people and who pays? everybody! All I get from this is your better off being stupid in this country. Stupid but obviously not the kind of idiot I was - silly me working 2 jobs during the boom and paying off my morgage before things got bad.....so got that people responsible=stupid but paying anyway for everyone else.

Seriously thinking about leaving this dump.

smash

theg81der wrote: »

Yea I still don`t understand when people signed a document for 25 or 30 years for god knows how much thought they were fecking doing!!!

Well they'll be the same people who in 25/30 years will have no mortgage on the house they live in while you're paying through the nose for rent somewhere. And when they retire they'll still have a house where as you might have to downgrade to a 1 bed apartment or a state run home because your pension is too small to cover rent anywhere decent. That's the logic in it!

they'll also have an asset to hand down to their children.

Sea Sharp

This scheme has the potential to work. The bank now owns the house but there's no saying it will be able to sell the house in the next seven years. Probably what will happen is that you hand over your house to the banks and get to live there paying means tested rent for the next seven years.

theg81der

smash wrote: »

Well they'll be the same people who in 25/30 years will have no mortgage on the house they live in while you're paying through the nose for rent somewhere. And when they retire they'll still have a house where as you might have to downgrade to a 1 bed apartment or a state run home because your pension is too small to cover rent anywhere decent. That's the logic in it!

they'll also have an asset to hand down to their children.

Lol you didn`t read my post did you?lol I have my morgage completely paid - ok my house is modest but I own it and I worked damn hard for it when there was money to be made.

ronan45

My colleague who bought 4 buy to let apartments from 05-07 is well chuffed with the news.
Jebus isnt Ireland great, you take a gamble and get stung for your greed and the Wee old Irish Bail ya out!.

He sends his regards to all ye from the O Connell Street taxi Rank lmfao Business is slow today

ejmaztec

ronan45 wrote: »

My colleague who bought 4 buy to let apartments from 05-07 is well chuffed with the news.
Jebus isnt Ireland great, you take a gamble and get stung for your greed and the Wee old Irish Bail ya out!.

He sends his regards to all ye

Is he certain that buy to lets are included in the scheme? If not, he'd better lock his tenants in so they can't move somewhere else.

Stiffler2

So let me get this right.
the bank takes your house from you, and then expect you to continue paying the mortgage for 7 years afterwards.

LOL - am I missing something here ?

IF I lost my house and the bank took it off me the first thing I would do is obvioulsy stop paying back the loan.

This obvioulsy means you could never borrow or get a mortgage again but F**K that, I'd rent for the rest of my life and keep my 7 years worth of mortgage payments thank you very much

twats

stovelid

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Free gravy train? The banks will own their house which can be sold out from under them - pushing people who genuinely can no longer afford their mortgage and can't sell their homes into paying both rent and repayments for up to seven years...I'd imagine they'd also then be blacklisted.

Not exactly a magical fairy wipe-the-slate-clean write-off.

Get with the programme.

Splenetic bullsh*t is what's required. Take your reasonable questions to a posh forum.

Rabidlamb

Stiffler2 wrote: »

So let me get this right.
the bank takes your house from you, and then expect you to continue paying the mortgage for 7 years afterwards.

LOL - am I missing something here ?

I wonder about this aswell, especially with the bankruptcy legislation pending & rumoured to be only 3 years.
Why would you bother ?.

theg81der

Eh Smash - any chance your going to have manners and apologise you were pretty rude and completely incorrect?!

jackal

smash wrote: »

Then they were f*cked out though.

smash wrote: »

I really don't see your point here? You complained about the old government even though they've been f*cked out and now you're throwing around silly comments.

The point is that the default rabble-rabble quote that's wheeled out is "why should we take the pain when the banks are responsible".

1. Bob borrowed too much for an overpriced house, which has subsequently halved in value.
2. Bobs bank let him borrow too much as they were in a highly aggressive sales war with competitors domestic and foreign, and there was tons of credit sloshing around looking for a home.
3. The government failed to regulate the banks, because they would have been accused of collapsing the market by the majority of the population who were only interested in the market continuing to rise.
4. Bob voted for the FF-led government, because he wanted the good times to continue.
5. FF appeared to have found the golden goose, where buying and selling property in Ireland was heavily promoted and subsidised.

Bob---elects--->government---regulates--->banks---lendto--->Bob

So its a little rich for the borrows to claim this is all the banks fault.

smash

theg81der wrote: »

Lol you didn`t read my post did you?lol I have my morgage completely paid - ok my house is modest but I own it and I worked damn hard for it when there was money to be made.

theg81der wrote: »

Eh Smash - any chance your going to have manners and apologise you were pretty rude and completely incorrect?!

Right, so you paid off your mortgage early, but a lot of people couldn't do that and can't do it now either. People's circumstances changed very quickly. If your circumstances changed a few years ago you couldn't have done it either. There are still people working damn hard for their houses!

And I wasn't rude. There's plenty of people with your attitude who don't own a house and the sentiment still stands for them.

jackal wrote: »

So its a little rich for the borrows to claim this is all the banks fault.

It is the banks fault. It's a global crisis caused by banks. Not an Irish crisis caused by home buyers.

theg81der

smash wrote: »

Right, so you paid off your mortgage early, but a lot of people couldn't do that and can't do it now either. People's circumstances changed very quickly. If your circumstances changed a few years ago you couldn't have done it either. There are still people working damn hard for their houses!

And I wasn't rude. There's plenty of people with your attitude who don't own a house and the sentiment still stands for them.

You didn`t read my post I was talking about people who want debt forgiveness not you clearly! And no I couldn`t have been affected by a change in circumstances I had a modest morgage which I knew I could afford and I did. What can you say did people seriously not realise things were good then, like it was obvious things would get bad - everything goes up and down d`uh!

Your meeting your responsibilities, why shouldn`t other people? You just said circumstance change, everyone knows that unless they`re an absolute idiot!

jackal

Stiffler2 wrote: »

So let me get this right.
the bank takes your house from you, and then expect you to continue paying the mortgage for 7 years afterwards.

LOL - am I missing something here ?

IF I lost my house and the bank took it off me the first thing I would do is obvioulsy stop paying back the loan.

This obvioulsy means you could never borrow or get a mortgage again but F**K that, I'd rent for the rest of my life and keep my 7 years worth of mortgage payments thank you very much

twats

Correct me if I am wrong here... did the bank give you the house, or the money to buy the house?

If you get a bank lent you money for a €30,000 Mercedes, and you wrote the car off, do you think the bank should accept the smouldering wreck as full and final payment of the €30,000, and you should be allowed to walk away from the debt?

pickarooney

jackal wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong here... did the bank give you the house, or the money to buy the house?

If you get a bank lent you money for a €30,000 Mercedes, and you wrote the car off, do you think the bank should accept the smouldering wreck as full and final payment of the €30,000, and you should be allowed to walk away from the debt?

Is it not the case that the house itself is collateral for the loan to buy it, something which obviously wouldn't work with a car which is subject to instant depreciation?

jackal

smash wrote: »

It is the banks fault. It's a global crisis caused by banks. Not an Irish crisis caused by home buyers.

You have to be trolling.

jackal

pickarooney wrote: »

Is it not the case that the house itself is collateral for the loan to buy it, something which obviously wouldn't work with a car which is subject to instant depreciation?

Are houses not subject to instant depreciation at the moment no?

The house is partial collateral, but the lender has recourse to the borrower. That's what was in the mortgage agreement the borrower signed.

smash

theg81der wrote: »

like it was obvious things would get bad

If you realised this, then instead of working your ass off paying a mortgage on a modest house why did you not save all your money and buy a better house for a lot cheaper when you knew the market would collapse? :rolleyes:

pickarooney

jackal wrote: »

Are houses not subject to instant depreciation at the moment no?

Call it negative fluctuation?