Leap card - only 90 minutes to tag off?!

n97 mini

Just got a Leap card today and notice that it says

Your Leap card gives you 90 minutes between Touching On and Touching Off. After this time you'll be charge the fare to the end of the line. If you try to Touch Off after 90 minutes you will actually touch on again.

Plenty of rail journeys cannot be completed within 90 minutes.

Will this end up in people being charged more than they should?

schemingbohemia

Why does this warrant a separate thread? Should it not be in the Leap feedback thread?

I don't think any of the current train journeys that are included in Leap (Commuter fares) would last longer than 90 minutes. Obviously it will be an issue when longer journeys are included.

Losty Dublin

What commuter trip cost less than the maximum fare on a leap card yet delays aside take longer than 90 minutes?

Dravokivich

Issue would be with commuter routes where you'd transfer to a Dart at Connolly / Pearse, to go south / northside as there could be quite a time delay between getting there and getting the next Dart.

Cash fare takes into account the transfer if you were to purchase a ticket, but the delay on this means your journey could easily be longer then the time you've got. Remember the timer is from when you touch on, and it's generally a good idea to get to the platform earlier than the train in the first place.

n97 mini

I think having to remember what time you tagged on, and work out if you're over or under 90 minutes is counter productive. There are plenty of journeys that take longer than 90 minutes, so you should tag off at the end of your rail journey regardless, and not get penalised for doing so (by being tagged on again, and getting inadvertently charged another fare).

Dravokivich

The idea of the 90 mins is in the event someone doesn't touch off after their journey. I think this might have been on the other smart cards for luas and irish rail already. I'm fairly sure its on the Luas card anyway. So this isn't necessarily a Leap enforced thing.

subway

if you are on the train more than 90 mins and tagged off, and then approached by an inspector and they scan your card, are you fined for fare evasion?

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

What commuter trip cost less than the maximum fare on a leap card yet delays aside take longer than 90 minutes?

Adamstown to Clonsilla?

Dravokivich

subway wrote: »

if you are on the train more than 90 mins and tagged off, and then approached by an inspector and they scan your card, are you fined for fare evasion?

Your card will display it's current status on the inspectors reader along with the last few transactions. It'll display when last tagged on and where. It's only on the backend will it say you've tagged off. Neither the inspecters reader nor your card are "live" so to say.

n97 mini wrote: »

Adamstown to Clonsilla?

You'd be better of getting the 239, instead of going to hueston, getting a luas to connolly and then getting another train. Unless, you're trying to do that on a Sunday. ;P

n97 mini

Dravokivich wrote: »

You'd be better of getting the 239 ... unless, you're trying to do that on a Sunday. ;P

Sure, or how about Hazelhatch to Castleknock.

Point is there are quite a few journeys possible that are less than maximum fare that take > 90 minutes.

Dravokivich

n97 mini wrote: »

Sure, or how about Hazelhatch to Castleknock.

Point is there are quite a few journeys possible that are less than maximum fare that take > 90 minutes.

You've still got a Luas transfer in the middle there though so you'll be going to hueston and touching off from Irish Rail in order to Touch onto the Luas.

You'd be better off suggesting Maynooth - Bray / Malahide as the transfer happens within a station.

n97 mini

Dravokivich wrote: »

You'd be better off suggesting Maynooth - Bray / Malahide as the transfer happens within a station.

Maximum fare.

n97 mini

Dravokivich wrote: »

You've still got a Luas transfer in the middle there though so you'll be going to hueston and touching off from Irish Rail in order to Touch onto the Luas.

Makes 3 separate journeys out of the trip, making it much more expensive. IE will sell you one ticket to cover it all.

Dravokivich

n97 mini wrote: »

Maximum fare.

Which is €4. Less then the default of €4.30 at touch on.

n97 mini wrote: »

Makes 3 separate journeys out of the trip, making it much more expensive. IE will sell you one ticket to cover it all.

It includes the transfer between another party?

If so you are looking at a ticket as a product, not as a replacement for cash fares.

ArmaniJeanss

Plenty of 30 minutes journeys likely to take 90+ minutes if the snow hits.
Pearse to Castleknock took me 120 minutes last December.

n97 mini

Dravokivich wrote: »

Which is €4. Less then the default of €4.30 at touch on.

Good point. Travel Maynooth to Bray and you get charged €4.30 and not €4.

Dravokivich wrote: »

It includes the transfer between another party?

The paper tickets frequently cover Luas and/or bus 90, tho I am not 100% in this case.

Dravokivich wrote: »

If so you are looking at a ticket as a product, not as a replacement for cash fares.

If it takes one paper ticket to complete a journey, I would expect that would be mirrored and cheaper with Leap. No point in Leap if it's not...

AngryLips

Are you sure the 90 minute tag-off stipulation isn't just in respect of Luas? Aren't all Irish Rail stations within the Leap zone equipped with barriers meaning that the fare isn't fully calculated until tag off occurs? ...however long after journey initiation that may be.

n97 mini

Just phoned Irish Rail who have confirmed that the 90-minute auto tag-off on the Leap card is a problem.

They say they have made representation to the Leap people about it but so far it still remains unsolved.

Dravokivich

n97 mini wrote: »

The paper tickets frequently cover Luas and/or bus 90, tho I am not 100% in this case.

If it takes one paper ticket to complete a journey, I would expect that would be mirrored and cheaper with Leap. No point in Leap if it's not...

Are you forgetting that it is currently only meant to be an ePurse? If what you are referring to is available, it would be regarded as a ticket. This would be no different to how the Irish Rail Smart Card works.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

Just phoned Irish Rail who have confirmed that the 90-minute auto tag-off on the Leap card is a problem.

They say they have made representation to the Leap people about it but so far it still remains unsolved.

Interesting to know this. I was wondering how many journey's it would affect and how transfers work. I'd assume that there wouldn't be too many journeys from fringe to fringe but regardless it needs to be addressed. How would they deal with this in other markets if one needs to leave a station to make a connection?

Carawaystick

Losty Dublin wrote: »

regardless it needs to be addressed.

it needed to be addressed before launch.
I ended in a loop where the nta said ring IÉ; IÉ said ring then nta etc....
50,000,004.30 well spent.....

AngryLips

You're right, this is a glaring oversight that should have been spotted in the requirements phase. I still don't see the problem though, the limit for IE should be much greater, perhaps even up to day. Given that there are barriers at every station it makes sense that no one traveling on an IE journey would be able to get off without tagging off...

Niles

A few interesting points there. And what happens if your train ends up being delayed to the point that your journey goes over the 90 minute mark? This could easily happen with a train failure, obstruction on the line, etc...

AngryLips

AngryLips wrote: »

You're right, this is a glaring oversight that should have been spotted in the requirements phase. I still don't see the problem though, the limit for IE should be much greater, perhaps even up to day. Given that there are barriers at every station it makes sense that no one traveling on an IE journey would be able to get off without tagging off...

Not every station, many still have the older turnstiles. Drumcondra for example (well the last time I was in there). You can exit without a ticket, you only need one to get in.

AngryLips

Karsini wrote: »

Not every station, many still have the older turnstiles. Drumcondra for example (well the last time I was in there). You can exit without a ticket, you only need one to get in.

Are there plans to roll out the barriers across all stations in the zone? Aren't there any tag-off points installed in Drumcondra at all?

Dravokivich

AngryLips wrote: »

Are there plans to roll out the barriers across all stations in the zone? Aren't there any tag-off points installed in Drumcondra at all?

The only station you can't touch on/off at is Broombridge.

All other stations have either pole validators or gates with smart card readers.

Cookie_Monster

how the **** can they spend 50m+ and get something like this wrong

the mind boggles

n97 mini

I emailed Leap customer service yesterday morning about this and so far not a dickybird back.

I presume the people running Leap are civil servants, i.e. NTA staff?

markpb

n97 mini wrote: »

I presume the people running Leap are civil servants, i.e. NTA staff?

Not really: NTA Press Release. The relevant part is on page 2

HP, supported by Payzone, will operate the system and will provide support services on the website, call centre and
card supply. HP have also worked on the hugely successful Oyster system in London.

Basically, Sequoia designed it, IBM and MSI built the system, HP will operate it and Payzone will own the retail network and online payments system. I don't know what involvement the NTA staff will have in the running of the system. I'd imagine it'll take them a while to get up to speed on the system (in real life conditions).

n97 mini

So who's responsible for (the lack of) customer support?

markpb

n97 mini wrote: »

So who's responsible for (the lack of) customer support?

HP but I they might have contracted it to someone else. I suspect they're trained to answer standard customer queries - everything else (like your query) will be bumped to IBM/MSI/HP. It looks (from this thread) like a design issue so they're not likely to be able to answer your question quickly - the best you can reasonably hope for is "we're looking into it".

Lapin

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Interesting to know this. I was wondering how many journey's it would affect and how transfers work. I'd assume that there wouldn't be too many journeys from fringe to fringe but regardless it needs to be addressed. How would they deal with this in other markets if one needs to leave a station to make a connection?

The Oyster in London allows 12 minutes to make connections that involve leaving the station at certain points on the tube. EG Transferring from the Piccadilly line to the Circle line at Hammersmith involves leaving one part of the station, crossing a busy road and entering another part of the station. Its really a seperate station with the same name. 12 minutes is loads of time. Other examples include West Hampstead and Edgware Road.

AngryLips

n97 mini wrote: »

So who's responsible for (the lack of) customer support?

Ultimately the NTA. Just because they've outsourced most functions doesn't mean they no longer own it.

lil5

Article in today's Irish Times

Travel time limit on Leap card must change -
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0424/1224315097112.html

...
“To my surprise, on the morning of day three and after just four journeys, she texted to say there was just €10 left on her card. I checked the travel history online and found charges of €8.60 per one-way trip instead of €4.”

... first made contact with the Leap card office, she was told it would look into the issue, but said it was a matter for Irish Rail. Customer services at Irish Rail passed her on to their “Smart Card” office, “who said it was nothing to do with them and passed me back to Leap card.
...

n97 mini

Ok, time to find the manager(s) in IR that are responsible for this idiotic gaff that has been well reported by now.

Although ultimately it would be Dick Fearn or even Leo?

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

Ok, time to find the manager(s) in IR that are responsible for this idiotic gaff that has been well reported by now.

Although ultimately it would be Dick Fearn or even Leo?

Ten long years and c.€45 Million ...........it appears the entire Leap Card Team began at Z and worked their way tortuously back to A.

Part of the responsibility issue now remains difficult to investigate due to the numbers of individuals responsible for various facets of Leap...everybodys in charge of something,but nobody has responsibility for anything...:o

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Ten long years and c.€45 Million ...........it appears the entire Leap Card Team began at Z and worked their way tortuously back to A.

Part of the responsibility issue now remains difficult to investigate due to the numbers of individuals responsible for various facets of Leap...everybodys in charge of something,but nobody has responsibility for anything...:o

Wait till they start juggling staff around to see if they can do better than their colleagues at hte same job.

lil5

From Irish Times (1 May) -
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0501/1224315400694.html

Great leap forward on travel card's time rule

AND ANOTHER follow-up from last week. A reader’s daughter who was using a Leap card to go from north Co Dublin to Greystones found she was double-billed for each journey because it took longer than 90 minutes to complete and once that 90-minute threshold was reached an additional fare was charged.

Our reader reviewed the Irish Rail timetable and discovered it was virtually impossible to travel from north Co Dublin to Greystones within 90 minutes – even if using Dart-only journeys rather than combinations of commuter rail and Dart.

A spokeswoman for the National Transport Authority contacted us last week and said the issue has now been addressed. The authority has been in touch with Irish Rail and modifications are being made to the Leap Card which should be in place, subject to testing, within two weeks.

foggy_lad

lil5 wrote: »

From Irish Times (1 May) -
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0501/1224315400694.html

Great leap forward on travel card's time rule

AND ANOTHER follow-up from last week. A reader’s daughter who was using a Leap card to go from north Co Dublin to Greystones found she was double-billed for each journey because it took longer than 90 minutes to complete and once that 90-minute threshold was reached an additional fare was charged.

Our reader reviewed the Irish Rail timetable and discovered it was virtually impossible to travel from north Co Dublin to Greystones within 90 minutes – even if using Dart-only journeys rather than combinations of commuter rail and Dart.

A spokeswoman for the National Transport Authority contacted us last week and said the issue has now been addressed. The authority has been in touch with Irish Rail and modifications are being made to the Leap Card which should be in place, subject to testing, within two weeks.

Are all those who have been ripped off by this glaringly obvious fault going to be reimbursed?

Short answer is no and yet again the Leap card is seen as not something that is to be trusted! most people want to buy a ticket or top-up and not worry that their credit is going to be syphoned away by unscrupulous companies!

n97 mini

It amazes me that it took an article in the national press for this to be addressed. How long have they known about this problem?

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

It amazes me that it took an article in the national press for this to be addressed. How long have they known about this problem?

It was first raised,I believe,some 10 years and €40 million ago.......;)

n97 mini

I phoned Leap and IR about it months ago. I got the impression that

1. No-one in Leap could do anything about it
2. No-one in IR knew anyone who could do anything about it

I'm glad they've found a responsible person.

ixoy

n97 mini wrote: »

It amazes me that it took an article in the national press for this to be addressed. How long have they known about this problem?

I would've thought it'd take about five minutes actually thinking about the potential routes to have worked out this may be a problem. It's baffling how they can not think of these contingencies - a number of posters here can and we're not highly paid consultants like they should have employed.

n97 mini

Does anyone know if this bug has been fixed yet, after this appeared in the Irish Times on May 1st?

A spokeswoman for the National Transport Authority contacted us last week and said the issue has now been addressed. The authority has been in touch with Irish Rail and modifications are being made to the Leap Card which should be in place, subject to testing, within two weeks.

and if the time limit has been increased, what has it been increased to?

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

Does anyone know if this bug has been fixed yet, after this appeared in the Irish Times on May 1st?



and if the time limit has been increased, what has it been increased to?

There is nothing on leapcard.ie about it.