Frankel. Simply The Best

ft9

Go on Frankel ya hero!!!!!!!!!!


From www.irishracing.com

Frankel on top of the world


Frankel has been officially rated 4lb clear of the field as the best racehorse on the planet after the announcement of the World Thoroughbred Rankings.
Sir Henry Cecil's unbeaten colt, who carried all before him during the season in a five-race streak, was given a rating of 136 to equal that of Sea The Stars in 2009 as the finest since the instigation of the current system in 2004.

Frankel has been considered by Cecil and many experts as the greatest in modern times, although he falls short of the heights achieved in the old classifications by El Gran Senor (138 in 1984) and further from 1986 Arc hero Dancing Brave (141), Alleged and Shergar (both 140).

The figures are collated when the world's handicappers meet at the end of the year and it was decided the clear second best, on 132, was the celebrated Australian sprinter Black Caviar.

Garry O'Gorman, the senior Irish handicapper, said Frankel can still be considered the equal to those giants of the past.

"You have to go back to El Gran Senor 27 years to find a comparable miler, but it is acknowledged that levels of earlier editions were running at a higher level," he said.

"Even though El Gran Senor was 138, to be blunt, he should not have been as high as 138.

"I would hate to say Frankel and Sea The Stars would have to improve to be talked about in the same breath as those other horses."

The British Horseracing Authority's senior mile handicapper, Dominic Gardiner-Hill, said: "Frankel fulfilled all our hopes and expectations, didn't he?

"He got a rating of 130 for the Guineas with what I consider one of the most visually stunning performances by a thoroughbred I've ever seen.

"It was not an easy race to put a figure on, but by hook or by crook, we did, and it was the best Guineas performance since Zafonic.

"I was not the only person to feel slightly deflated after the St James's Palace but after Ascot he produced his best performances in winning the Sussex Stakes and the QEII.

"Although it appeared Canford Cliffs was not at his best in the Sussex, I don't think there was a person at Goodwood who thought Frankel would not have done that under any circumstances.

"I don't think you could say with any degree of confidence he wasn't inferior or superior to Sea The Stars. If it was a handicap, I wouldn't want to give either weight."

O'Gorman added: "It's a classic example of when a rating doesn't tell the story. He produced the most visually arresting performance in the Guineas, but it's not his best rating.

"He was palpably better than his rating, but the two horses he beat in the Guineas were no stars."

Phil Smith, the BHA head of handicapping, said: "To be 4lb clear of the world is special.

"Dancing Brave is the top since 1977 on 141. I don't believe Dancing Brave would get that now on current handicapping systems, but it's in the book and that's what is to aim for.

"Frankel improved from 126 last year to 136, and who's to say he won't get better or that the competition might not be stronger. It's fantastic he has stayed in training."

Black Caviar, who would actually receive over 4lb in allowances should she meet Frankel in the Southern Hemisphere, but only 3lb above the Equator, was accorded glowing praise.

O'Gorman said: "You have to go back as far as Pebbles and Miesque in the 1980s and arguably she is the best filly or mare we've ever seen.

"It took a handicap to show how good she is, as she gave weight to fillies and colts in the Newmarket Handicap and that form worked out well."

Champion Stakes winner Cirrus des Aigles and German filly Danedream, who was so impressive in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, were rated joint-third on 128 ahead of Canford Cliffs and the late Rewilding (127).

Six of the top 10 were trained in Britain, with Dream Ahead, Excelebration and Nathaniel all rated 126 too.

UrbanSea

Not quite sure that Excelebration deserves a rating of 126.


Not a chance actually

mr.jingle

UrbanSea wrote: »

Not quite sure that Excelebration deserves a rating of 126.


Not a chance actually

Agree with you 100%. Considering what Dream Ahead done last season compared to Excelebration i cannot fathom how they both have the same rating. Dream Ahead won 3 proper Group 1's against the best of oppositon, Excelebration won a couple of weak Group 1's and a below average Group 2. There is no comparison between these two. Dream Aheads inability to stay beyond 6 1/2-7 furlongs worked against him.

UrbanSea

Dream Ahead was a top colt. He is probably the best sprinter I've ever seen,plus he broke the track record in the Foret.

Dream Ahead was rated 126 as a two year old,so according to the handicapper he didn't improve at all at 3.Lol

hucklebuck

I think the recent ratings on the flat have been quite poor, in Frankels case he has been brilliant but the horses he has been running against are quite poor so the handicappers are probably wary of over-rating him.

In Sea The Stars he was up against better horses than Frankel over varying differences but only ever did what he needed to do.

It's worrying that we can have such brilliant horses but they get punished for having way inferior horses to beat.

I would have loved to see Sea The Stars up against Sea Bird II and see him engage top gear.

newuser89

Excellebration would have won more group 1 races if frankel wasn't around.would have been the best miler last year,his rating is that high because he has gotten closer to frankel than any other horse in a couple of races,the race that zoffany nearly got up can be scrapped As queally went to early.
You's aren't being fair to this horse .top miler after frankel and more consistent than dream ahead

UrbanSea

More consistent than Dream Ahead? Dream Ahead ran one bad race last year in France,but still won 3 group 1's out of 5 attempts and didn't stay the other.


Beating Rio De La Plata over a length deserves a rating of 126?

newuser89

Yes dream ahead didn't stay in his first race last year and was disappointing in France, all I'm saying is excelebration always ran up to form every time,I think he was rated highly for being the closet to frankel (best horse in the world)and not for beating rio de la plata.
If there was a frankel in dream aheads races he wouldn't have those group 1s either.
AOB will get group 1s outa him next year

UrbanSea

Look at the strength of those races,they're very poor.

I think he'll be found out by some of this year's three year olds.

newuser89

He's one to keep on your side I think.
3 times last year he was behind frankel
2nd , 3rd ,2nd
Beating 4 lengths both times he was 2nd and 2 and a bit when 3rd.
Just saying if you we're betting on a handicap and you knew nothing of either horse but just the form against each other off level weights would you fancy frankel to beat excelebration giving him 10 pounds for a 4 length turn around

UrbanSea

I actually would. It's not as if Excelebration made much of an impression on him any time bar Ascot

TheMilkyPirate

UrbanSea wrote: »

Beating Rio De La Plata over a length deserves a rating of 126?

No but beating immortal verse by 4 lengths who had just beaten goldikova a length might. Your not giving him the credit he deserves, Excelebration is a top top miler and would have been the best miler in europe last year if it wasn't for himself.

UrbanSea wrote: »

Dream Ahead was a top colt. He is probably the best sprinter I've ever seen,plus he broke the track record in the Foret.

lol. Rocket man? Silent witness? Dayjur? Black caviar???

UrbanSea

baraca wrote: »

No but beating immortal verse by 4 lengths who had just beaten goldikova a length might. Your not giving him the credit he deserves, Excelebration is a top top miler and would have been the best miler in europe last year if it wasn't for himself.

Perhaps I was a bit harsh,but the way Frankel took the fields apart he exaggerated many distances between the other horses I think. I'd like to see her against him without Frankel,not sure there'd be 4 lengths in it

lol. Rocket man? Silent witness? Dayjur? Black caviar???

I don't know how good Black Caviar is so I can't say she is the best I've seen as I know little about Australian racing.

And I don't know what the lol is for. Look at his Middle Park win.

tryfix

Cirrus Des Aigles on 128 the joint third best horse in the World? I don't think so, an end of season champion stakes win shouldn't be enough to put him above everything in the world bar Frankel and Black Caviar. He finished 4th to California memory at level weights on his next start in Sha Tin. No excuses either because he finished ahead of his Longchamp conqueror Byword that day.

Black Caviar is one of the greatest horses to have graced the track anywhere, considering the quality of Austrailian sprinters she must be up there as one of the greatest sprinters of all time.

Frankel is just in a different class to the other milers, he does things so easily. He needs to do it all again and over further to show he's more than a 3yo champion miler type.

UrbanSea

Everyone is saying that he needs to step up in distance to prove he's a great horse.

What's wrong with being a great miler? We didn't see the same criticism of Canford Cliffs.

tryfix

UrbanSea wrote: »

Everyone is saying that he needs to step up in distance to prove he's a great horse.

What's wrong with being a great miler? We didn't see the same criticism of Canford Cliffs.

Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard, Dancing Brave. Sea The Stars. Greats of the Turf, all never shirked a challenge or were ever afraid to run outside their comfort zone.

Canford Cliffs was a very good horse, no one would suggest he was anywhere near one of the all time greats. Frankel is a great horse, he needs to show some versatility to show his brilliance isn't limited to a mile. If he can do that impressively then he could be one of the greatest we have ever seen. Sea The Stars greatness lay in his versatility and durability, not in the bare form of his wins.

UrbanSea

I realise that,but I don't believe in sending horses over distances unsuited to them for the sake of comparing them to horses gone by.

There is no shame in him only being suited by a mile.

tryfix

UrbanSea wrote: »

I realise that,but I don't believe in sending horses over distances unsuited to them for the sake of comparing them to horses gone by.

There is no shame in him only being suited by a mile.

No shame at all in it, only we want him to be an immortal and prove himself as good as any horse we've seen.

TheMilkyPirate

UrbanSea wrote: »

I don't know how good Black Caviar is so I can't say she is the best I've seen as I know little about Australian racing.

And I don't know what the lol is for. Look at his Middle Park win.

Sorry urban the lol was stupid i was just in a silly mood.

I just find it hard to see how you can think dream ahead is the best sprinter you've ever seen, When the four suggestions i gave would probably piss on him and flush him down the toilet.

UrbanSea

That's ok.

I stand by what I said though.
I was barely walking when Dayjur raced,I have seen Black Caviar once and know little about her so can't claim she is the best I've seen. I hope to follow her next season though.

hucklebuck

I think the reason people want to see him step up in trip is they see the Derby and Arc as the holy grail, which they are and the problem is the greats are generally talked about in the same breath as these races.

The other thing is he is being kept in training at 4 and if he stays at 1 mile I don't think Timeform would consider putting him to the top of the tree not matter how good he is this year.

hucklebuck

Actually speaking of stupid ratings, Black Caviar has a higher rating than Zarkava :rolleyes:

tryfix

hucklebuck wrote: »

Actually speaking of stupid ratings, Black Caviar has a higher rating than Zarkava :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VkpmImLeVw

Look at this clip and remember she's unbeaten in 16 straight races, beating the best Australian sprinters with ease and we all know how good their sprinters are.

DATE RACE CONDITIONS WGT RACE OUTCOME JOCKEY OR TS RPR
05Nov11 Fle 6Gd G1 393K 8-13 1/7 (2¾L Buffering 9-3) 1/25F Luke Nolen — * *
22Oct11 Moo 6GS G2 119K 8-13 1/4 (6L Doubtful Jack 9-3) 1/33F Luke Nolen — * *
08Oct11 Cau 5GS G2 79K 8-13 1/8 (4¼L Karuta Queen 8-0) 1/14F Luke Nolen — * *
14May11 Doo 6GS G1 170K 8-13 1/8 (2L Hay List 9-3) 3/20F Luke Nolen — * *
09Apr11 Ran 6GS G1 394K 8-13 1/11 (2¾L Hay List 9-3) 1/7F Luke Nolen — * *
25Mar11 Moo 6Gd G1 202K 8-13 1/7 (1¾L Crystal Lily 8-7) 1/11F Luke Nolen — * *
12Mar11 Fle 6Gd HcG1 395K 9-2 1/11 (3L Crystal Lily 7-12) 2/11F Luke Nolen — * *
19Feb11 Fle 5GS G1 295K 8-13 1/9 (3¼L Hay List 9-3) 2/7F Luke Nolen — * *
06Nov10 Fle 6GS G1 251K 8-13 1/7 (4L Star Witness 8-6) 9/10F Ben Melham — * *
23Oct10 Moo 6GS G2 102K 8-13 1/6 (5½L Hot Danish 8-13) 2/5F Luke Nolen — * *
09Oct10 Cau 5Gd G2 67K 8-13 1/8 (1¼L Winter King 9-3) 4/5F Luke Nolen — * *
22Jan10 Moo 6Gd G2 68K 8-5 1/5 (2¼L Here De Angels 9-3) 8/11F Luke Nolen — * *
05Sep09 Fle 6Gd 3yG2 73K 8-7 1/9 (¾L Wanted 8-10) 4/9F Luke Nolen — * *
22Aug09 Moo 6Gd 3yL 33K 8-13 1/5 (3¾L Miraculous Miss 8-9) Luke Nolen — * *
02May09 Cau 6Gd L 32K 9-1 1/10 ( 0-0) Jarrad Noske — * *
18Apr09 Fle 5GS Hc 32K

hucklebuck

I am well aware of what Black Caviar has achieved but how many fillies win Arc's. She didn't just beat them she made mugs of them after nearly killing herself at the start too.

She also beat Goldikova over a mile.

She had one of the most impressive turns of foot to my eye for a middle distance horse.

If you want to see a few of her races let me know and I will stick it on youtube for you, the way she won the Diane and Vermille was absolutely breathtaking.

tryfix

hucklebuck wrote: »

I am well aware of what Black Caviar has achieved but how many fillies win Arc's. She didn't just beat them she made mugs of them after nearly killing herself at the start too.

She also beat Goldikova over a mile.

She had one of the most impressive turns of foot to my eye for a middle distance horse.

If you want to see a few of her races let me know and I will stick it on youtube for you, the way she won the Diane and Vermille was absolutely breathtaking.

I would agree she was magnificent, a stunning Arc winner. The ease of her win being the most impressive part of it.

Take Danedreams win this year, she destroyed them but flopped in Japan. If she never reaches the heights of her Arc win again, she will just be a good winner of the Arc whose win willl be put down to the 3yo fillies allowance.

Zarkava did it in her 3yo season and we never had the opportunity to see what she could without the advantages of the 3yo weight allowances as a 4yo. Black Caviar has done it over 3 seasons and many of her wins have been as impressive as Zarkavas Arc win.

UrbanSea

I don't agree with making doubts about Zarkava tryfix. She was seriously class.
I'm adamant she would have been able to win a July Cup she had so much speed. The fact she used to lose about five lengths at the start and then go on to win easily is even more impressive.

Nulty

It really doesn't matter how good Zarkava was, Black Caviar has a rating agreed on by international handicappers and that mark is better than Zarkava. I've heard reports that the jockeys on the next tier of Aussie sprinters are sure that their horses are as good as any other generation they've ridden. Remember these Aussie jockeys regularly ride in Hong Kong . That part of the world, we can all agree on, is sprintland. She trashes the best Aussie sprinters of today who are by all accounts as good as any other generation of horses in that division.

Think of her as Big Bucks, not a filly, or compare her to Zarkava or even Frankel. She positively pisses on her rivals. Extraordinary.

tryfix

UrbanSea wrote: »

I don't agree with making doubts about Zarkava tryfix. She was seriously class.
I'm adamant she would have been able to win a July Cup she had so much speed. The fact she used to lose about five lengths at the start and then go on to win easily is even more impressive.

I'm not making doubts about her ability at all, a truly brilliant classy animal.

Black Caviars rating is what we are arguing about, and bringing Zarkava into it is muddying the waters unnecessarily. Lets compare her to Frankel, two beautiful imperious horses. When you look at their form how could you seperate them. They can only beat what's put in front of them and long may they both continue to do so.

I think what's causing the disagreement is that she's a sprinter racing on the other side of the world, Austrailian sprinters are better than European sprinters in general, Starspangledbanner and plenty of other AUS sprinters have come to Europe and beaten the best of the Europeans. She's the best sprinter they've had, so the argument might better be framed in the context of whether top sprinters can be rated the equal of top middle distance horses. I would think they can, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

UrbanSea

That'a s good point tryfix.

hucklebuck

tryfix wrote: »

bringing Zarkava into it is muddying the waters unnecessarily.

I am comparing a filly with a filly and I was making the point that as fillies goes I don't think Black Caviar is as good as Zarkava.

I am taking nothing away from Black Caviar but Zarkava beat Goldikova cosily when they were both 3 and look what she went on to do, I think Zarkava was still improving, pity she wasn't left in training as a 4 year old.

I doubt there is anything between Zarkava and Caviar prize money wise either.

Either way I am looking forward to seeing Frankel v Black Caviar and Frankel v Born to Sea V Camelot

UrbanSea

We will not see Frankel v Black Caviar.
Nor will we see Born to Sea v Frankel v Camelot.
We may well see Born to Sea v Frankel,but if Frankel is stepping up to ten we won't

hucklebuck

UrbanSea wrote: »

We will not see Frankel v Black Caviar.
Nor will we see Born to Sea v Frankel v Camelot.
We may well see Born to Sea v Frankel,but if Frankel is stepping up to ten we won't

Why so negative?

Do you not think Born to Sea will be running between 1m and 1m4?

tryfix

UrbanSea wrote: »

We will not see Frankel v Black Caviar.
Nor will we see Born to Sea v Frankel v Camelot.
We may well see Born to Sea v Frankel,but if Frankel is stepping up to ten we won't

I want to see Frankel go to 12f, bit much of an ask given his dams speed but he loves Ascot and taking the King George would put him up there with the greats. Not too wild about what he beat at a mile last year. He has already beaten last years top 3yo 12f horses as a 2yo, 10f would be a breeze for him as he was only getting better the further he was going in the Queen Elizabeth II stakes. Ascot is his track, pity there isn't a hope of him running in the King George though.

Can't take Born To Sea seriously after his flop, one to avoid unless he takes in the english Guineas. Oxx will only run him in it if he is actually a top horse and not one that's just good.

UrbanSea

hucklebuck wrote: »

Why so negative?

Do you not think Born to Sea will be running between 1m and 1m4?

I don't mean to be negative I mean to be realistic.
I can't see Born to Sea staying past a mile given the speed in his pedigree. The only hope is that Green Desert is the grand sire of Cape Cross as well and Sea the Stars got a mile and a half,but that's a distant hope.

People backing him for the Derby are mental I think.

hucklebuck

tryfix wrote: »

Can't take Born To Sea seriously after his flop, one to avoid unless he takes in the english Guineas.

He was lame immediately after his last run, I thought he gave a good account of himself all things considered.

Urban, I took 33/1 about him doing the Guineas Derby double, I will lay it like its hot if he wins the Guineas