Car tax – Time for a change?

Mossess

Should any of us be paying car tax in its current form?

Why not add X amount onto the price of petrol? – It would mean that we wouldn’t be wasting police time in checking it or the resources in collecting it.

It would mean also that everyone is paying it.

Sure it would mean that you’d be paying more for petrol, but at least you’d only be paying for what you use. The less you drive, the less you pay.

Should the government be more concerned about this then chasing down Pensioners?

:cool: idea for a thread

Antomus Prime

The main reason this will never happen in Ireland is.... and im pretty sure this is the right order of importance for this country....

1. The state will lose so much money in fines from people not paying car tax...
2. It will put people in the tax offices out of jobs...

I totally agree that it should be done this way but it will never happen

ofcork

The state may lose in fines but at least everyone would be paying if it was on to the price of petrol.

Antomus Prime

Yeah but what would the government prefer, everybody paying tax, or everybody paying tax eventually AND more revenue being generated from fines?

Anan1

The only problem I can see with this idea is that they'd have to do it in the North too.

ofcork

Without knowing the figures for actual tax paid and fines paid it would be hard to say.

Antomus Prime

True, but i'd imagine there's a heafty sum of revenue generated from fines. And theres also the fact of all the tax office workers in the country being put out of a job

vetstu

Antomus Prime wrote: »

True, but i'd imagine there's a heafty sum of revenue generated from fines. And theres also the fact of all the tax office workers in the country being put out of a job

But sure that'd save a fortune in wages. They would save the hosting fee for the website too!

George Dalton

I would say the revenue generated from fines is far outweighed by the revenue lost from people not taxing their cars and getting away with it.

I know in my own case the €80 fine for no tax is far less than the cost of a month's tax. So in theory if I let my car run out of tax once I get through a month without getting caught then I am ahead of the game. If I get caught in the second month I pay tax for that month plus the €80 fine but still I am at least €25 better off than if I had paid the tax to begin with. If I get caught in the third month I save at least €130, etc.

Antomus Prime

vetstu wrote: »

But sure that'd save a fortune in wages. They would save the hosting fee for the website too!

Good points, but I still cant see it ever happening here, mainly because it would work! And our government aren't exactly renowned for coming up with ideas that work

Voodoomelon

I wish a templated answer to this question could just be pasted everytime its asked. Or have a "Motor Tax on fuel" megathread.

Antomus Prime

George Dalton wrote: »

I would say the revenue generated from fines is far outweighed by the revenue lost from people not taxing their cars and getting away with it.

I know in my own case the €80 fine for no tax is far less than the cost of a month's tax. So in theory if I let my car run out of tax once I get through a month without getting caught then I am ahead of the game. If I get caught in the second month I pay tax for that month plus the €80 fine but still I am at least €25 better off than if I had paid the tax to begin with. If I get caught in the third month I save at least €130, etc.

I got caught once and my tax was out 3 months, and I had to pay the full 3 months arrears, not just the month I got caught. How did you only have to pay for the last month??

Voodoomelon

George Dalton wrote: »

I would say the revenue generated from fines is far outweighed by the revenue lost from people not taxing their cars and getting away with it.

I know in my own case the €80 fine for no tax is far less than the cost of a month's tax. So in theory if I let my car run out of tax once I get through a month without getting caught then I am ahead of the game. If I get caught in the second month I pay tax for that month plus the €80 fine but still I am at least €25 better off than if I had paid the tax to begin with. If I get caught in the third month I save at least €130, etc.

That makes no sense. If you are stopped in the second month, you have to pay back two months tax, plus the fine. If you are stopped 7 months down the line, you have to pay back 7 months plus the fine. You are not better off unless you go considerable amounts of time without paying.

George Dalton

I have never been fined for not having tax.

However, it is my understanding from talking to people who have that you can get the form stamped to say the car was off the road for the other months that you weren't caught in. They can't prove you were driving the car during those months, only during the month that you were caught. Obviously the advent of barrier free tolling and ANPR makes this strategy a bit more risky these days.

puzzle factory

George Dalton wrote: »

I would say the revenue generated from fines is far outweighed by the revenue lost from people not taxing their cars and getting away with it.

I know in my own case the €80 fine for no tax is far less than the cost of a month's tax. So in theory if I let my car run out of tax once I get through a month without getting caught then I am ahead of the game. If I get caught in the second month I pay tax for that month plus the €80 fine but still I am at least €25 better off than if I had paid the tax to begin with. If I get caught in the third month I save at least €130, etc.

when did it go up to 80? was always 60

Antomus Prime

Ive never heard of someone getting caught, fined and then declaring the car was off the road so as not to pay arrears. And I cant imagine any guard would be willing to stamp a form if you had been fined, sure they cant prove you were driving but you cant prove you weren't

George Dalton

Apologies you are right it is €60, for some reason I had a figure of €80 in my head.

Bullseye1

It makes perfect sense. But we are in Ireland and our politicians are not very inventive so it will never happen.

George Dalton

Antomus Prime wrote: »

Ive never heard of someone getting caught, fined and then declaring the car was off the road so as not to pay arrears. And I cant imagine any guard would be willing to stamp a form if you had been fined, sure they cant prove you were driving but you cant prove you weren't

Well I know people who have done it. It probably depends on the individual Garda who stops you.

Anan1

Bullseye1 wrote: »

It makes perfect sense. But we are in Ireland and our politicians are not very inventive so it will never happen.

AFAIK it did happen. Wasn't motor tax abolished for a while in the 70s?

Antomus Prime

George Dalton wrote: »

Well I know people who have done it. It probably depends on the individual Garda who stops you.

Its possible that some guards might, defo not up my way though

coylemj

Anan1 wrote: »

AFAIK it did happen. Wasn't motor tax abolished for a while in the 70s?

FF promised to abolish domestic rates and car tax in the campaign before the general election in 1977. They duly won with a massive majority but then it transpired that for whatever reason, it was still necessary to have people put tax discs on their windscreen so they introduced an annual 'registration' charge of £5 which over time morphed back into annual car tax.

I think if they abolished the tax disc altogether they would lose the ability to track the number of cars on the road so it is desirable that every car and commercial vehicle be subject to some kind of annual renewal, hence the tax disc and the associated revenue stream.

That means that if the OP's suggestion was taken up, the main revenue source would be the extra excise on fuel but the system of renewal and the issuing of tax discs (for a nominal fee) would probably continue so no job losses.

Voodoomelon

coylemj wrote: »

I think if they abolished the tax disc altogether they would lose the ability to track the number of cars on the road so it is desirable that every car and commercial vehicle be subject to some kind of annual renewal, hence the tax disc and the associated revenue stream.

Well that's not true in the slightest, if they used motor tax as a method of gauging the number of vehicles on the road, they'd be way off. Even if this was true, which its not, insurance policies would be a far more accurate way of getting this figure.

alexlyons

what about the chaps that are in one of the lowest motor tax bands and racking up 70k miles a year hence using a weird amount of fuel..

i sense a certain trade union for group of people who get paid to give people lifts will be slightly unhappy about this if it was suggested...

coylemj

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Well that's not true in the slightest, if they used motor tax as a method of gauging the number of vehicles on the road, they'd be way off. Even if this was true, which its not, insurance policies would be a far more accurate way of getting this figure.

I'm basing my statement on the fact that although they promised to abolish car tax, the incoming FF government in 1977 continued the system of tax disc renewal. Whether this was to preserve the local government jobs or to collect stats. on cars on the road you can decide for yourself.

Voodoomelon

I'd imagine any decision with the government, whether it was today or 30 years ago, is made out of laziness or revenue generation. I really do think its that simple. Is it the easy option? Yes. Does it make us money? Yes. Do it.

650Ginge

So for average joe doing 20,000kms @ 6l/100 Kms is 1200ltrs pa. So would would u need to add 33cent to a liter to get €400 in tax.

Maybe 6l/100kms is too low an average to work off though.

I think it's a great idea, just would be worried about the levied amount. Then if they stopped green diesel too we would laughing.

eyesquirm

You can no longer get a form stamped to say the car was off the road.
If you owe arrears, off the road or not, you pay the arrears.
So, if the car was genuinely off the road for, say, 3 months, you still have to pay tax for that period.

Guy:Incognito

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I'd imagine any decision with the government, whether it was today or 30 years ago, is made out of laziness or revenue generation. I really do think its that simple. Is it the easy option? Yes. Does it make us money? Yes. Do it.

If your going to give out obout the government at least use a valid point. Theres hardly a shortage.

It would be cheaper, easier and a bigger revenie generator to add it to fuel and scrap the current motor tax system.

Guy:Incognito

eyesquirm wrote: »

You can no longer get a form stamped to say the car was off the road.
If you owe arrears, off the road or not, you pay the arrears.
So, if the car was genuinely off the road for, say, 3 months, you still have to pay tax for that period.

Since when?

George Dalton

eyesquirm wrote: »

You can no longer get a form stamped to say the car was off the road.
If you owe arrears, off the road or not, you pay the arrears.
So, if the car was genuinely off the road for, say, 3 months, you still have to pay tax for that period.

Have you got any proof of this? Because I seriously doubt that it is the case.

Voodoomelon

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

If your going to give out obout the government at least use a valid point. Theres hardly a shortage.

It would be cheaper, easier and a bigger revenie generator to add it to fuel and scrap the current motor tax system.

You don't have to tell me, i'm probably the biggest advocator of tax on fuel on here, i've done the sums and it makes perfect sense. Hence my anger at the government never fixing bad systems and simply increasing the cost of everything mindlessly.

Guy:Incognito

George Dalton wrote: »

Have you got any proof of this? Because I seriously doubt that it is the case.

Im guessing its related to the "facts" in the other thread about a SORN like system coming in and "every car whether on the road or not has to be taxed" that despite being the musings of a government minister , quite a few people seem to have thought were in place and running the moment the interview was given.

George Dalton

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Im guessing its related to the "facts" in the other thread about a SORN like system coming in and "every car whether on the road or not has to be taxed" that despite being the musings of a government minister , quite a few people seem to have thought were in place and running the moment the interview was given.

That would be my guess as well but I said I would ask anyway.

For Forks Sake

eyesquirm wrote: »

You can no longer get a form stamped to say the car was off the road.
If you owe arrears, off the road or not, you pay the arrears.
So, if the car was genuinely off the road for, say, 3 months, you still have to pay tax for that period.

Was in the local station earlier waiting to get my passport renewal form signed off and the person ahead of me was getting declarations signed and stamped that his car had been off the road for a month. Garda on duty signed and stamped it after a couple of routine questions.

cadaliac

Antomus Prime wrote: »

Ive never heard of someone getting caught, fined and then declaring the car was off the road so as not to pay arrears. And I cant imagine any guard would be willing to stamp a form if you had been fined, sure they cant prove you were driving but you cant prove you weren't

I would doubt that happened unless they declared that the car was off the road up to the month that the car was stopped in.
i.e. if the car was stopped in December - and you went to declare that the car was off the road for a few months (lets say 3) it would have to be from x day in September until the last day of November.

The Guards will check on pulse if the car was stopped for speeding (or any other offence) in the time that you are saying that said car was off the road.

Also, any notion that the Guards will not stamp a car off the road any more is just that.
A notion.

George Dalton

cadaliac wrote: »

I would doubt that happened unless they declared that the car was off the road up to the month that the car was stopped in.
i.e. if the car was stopped in December - and you went to declare that the car was off the road for a few months (lets say 3) it would have to be from x day in September until the last day of November.

That is exactly what I meant. EG my own car has been out of tax and actually off the road since the end of August. So if I decide to drive it somewhere tomorrow and get stopped then why do I have to pay arrears for the months that the car was not on the road? Surely I would only have to pay the tax for January as well as the €60 fine.

Antomus Prime

eyesquirm wrote: »

You can no longer get a form stamped to say the car was off the road.
If you owe arrears, off the road or not, you pay the arrears.
So, if the car was genuinely off the road for, say, 3 months, you still have to pay tax for that period.

Yeah they said last year that they were enforcing this from now on but I can assure you its not the case, I got mine stamped off the road in late november, all the guards do is check if youve been stopped during the off the road period, if you werent stopped then theyll stamp it

mcwhirter

George Dalton wrote: »

I would say the revenue generated from fines is far outweighed by the revenue lost from people not taxing their cars and getting away with it.

I know in my own case the €80 fine for no tax is far less than the cost of a month's tax. So in theory if I let my car run out of tax once I get through a month without getting caught then I am ahead of the game. If I get caught in the second month I pay tax for that month plus the €80 fine but still I am at least €25 better off than if I had paid the tax to begin with. If I get caught in the third month I save at least €130, etc.

If you get fined, do you not pay from when the car was last axable or from the day you get caught?

cadaliac

George Dalton wrote: »

That is exactly what I meant. EG my own car has been out of tax and actually off the road since the end of August. So if I decide to drive it somewhere tomorrow and get stopped then why do I have to pay arrears for the months that the car was not on the road? Surely I would only have to pay the tax for January as well as the €60 fine.

Yip, but bearing in mind that if you get stopped without a letter and if the car is off the road for more than 3 months (which I think is changed to 2 months now, but not too sure) they can and will lift the car off you.

George Dalton

I don't know I never got fined for having no tax.

kincaid

Well im paying road tax on an 1.9 tdi passat and our road is a disgrace with potholes and their is no way of avoiding them either and nothing has been done to repair them (several is 6" deep) as they just dont have the money.
I had to replace many suspension arms in both sides etc which cost quite alot of money and now it maddened me to see they have hiked the road tax up again and for what, to bail out the banks??

Guy:Incognito

kincaid wrote: »

Well im paying road tax on an 1.9 tdi passat and our road is a disgrace with potholes and their is no way of avoiding them either and nothing has been done to repair them (several is 6" deep) as they just dont have the money.
I had to replace many suspension arms in both sides etc which cost quite alot of money and now it maddened me to see they have hiked the road tax up again and for what, to bail out the banks??

Seriously? this again?

You pay MOTOR tax. Thats why the site isnt called roadtax.ie.

It's a tax that goes to th egeneral council coffers and pays for everything the council spends money on. It's as much a road tax as the houshold charge is.Nowhere does it claim to be collected to pay for roads.

I can never understand whypeople get all pissing about others being "pedantic" and puling them up about calling it road tax. It just leads to posts like th eabove being trotted out all the time. Its funny too how people want to call it things like road tax or car tax, but wont use its actual name.

Antomus Prime

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Seriously? this again?

You pay MOTOR tax. Thats why the site isnt called roadtax.ie.

It's a tax that goes to th egeneral council coffers and pays for everything the council spends money on. It's as much a road tax as the houshold charge is.Nowhere does it claim to be collected to pay for roads.

I can never understand whypeople get all pissing about others being "pedantic" and puling them up about calling it road tax. It just leads to posts like th eabove being trotted out all the time. Its funny too how people want to call it things like road tax or car tax, but wont use its actual name.

Kincaid makes a good point.... Read paragraph 1 of this...

Guy:Incognito

Antomus Prime wrote: »

Kincaid makes a good point.... Read paragraph 1 of this...

technically that paragraph is right, but they could equally use the paragraph for many other taxes. My thoughts are that dublincity council are being selective in what they admit. If they put down "motor tax is collected and used to pay for roads and maintenance, councillors wages, lads to dig holes, libraries etcetc....." I'm sure others would be giving out that their road tax was paying for the 2 lazy gits they saw watching the guy down the hole the other day.

I havnt checked, but do all th eother councils have it like that?

Antomus Prime

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

technically that paragraph is right, but they could equally use the paragraph for many other taxes. My thoughts are that dublincity council are being selective in what they admit. If they put down "motor tax is collected and used to pay for roads and maintenance, councillors wages, lads to dig holes, libraries etcetc....." I'm sure others would be giving out that their road tax was paying for the 2 lazy gits they saw watching the guy down the hole the other day.

I havnt checked, but do all th eother councils have it like that?

Havent a clue to be honest man, but even if thats not what its only used for, it is a very valid point that the state of a high percentage of roads in this country is a joke!!! Sure all the speed ramps in my estate are still in bits from the snow 2 years ago, they are made of that red sandy crap that just crumbled when they froze. I had to replace the shocks on my car a few months back from them.

Chuck_Norris

Just to go back o/t for a minute, has this topic not been done to death on here already?

I think most of us agree that a change in the motor taxation system is required. Be it to make it "more equitable", a way of curbing evasion. Or most simply, and most likely, a way of generating more revenue.

But, as the majority of posters here are quick and correct to point out, there is a general air of laziness/ ineptitude in the public service.A "If it ain't broke don't fix it." type of attitude.

I feel that by lambasting the government or relevant minister in charge is pointless, as they don't really run the country. And I don't mean as a result of our bail- out. As in all democracies, it's the public service at large that steers policy.

I could keep ranting, but I fear I would ramble off topic even moreso.

Guy:Incognito

Antomus Prime wrote: »

Havent a clue to be honest man, but even if thats not what its only used for, it is a very valid point that the state of a high percentage of roads in this country is a joke!!! Sure all the speed ramps in my estate are still in bits from the snow 2 years ago, they are made of that red sandy crap that just crumbled when they froze. I had to replace the shocks on my car a few months back from them.

That may be but complaining that they should be fixed because you pay your "road tax" is pointless. You may aswell ring the council and say you paid you library fees so what the deal with the ****ty roads?

Voodoomelon

Antomus Prime wrote: »

Kincaid makes a good point.... Read paragraph 1 of this...

No he doesn't, by the looks of this line, that webpage content was written at least 2.5 years ago, probably several years before that when it was called road tax:

From 1st May 2009 collection of licensing fees for small public vehicles will transfer to the Commission for Taxi regulation

People should know better than to still call it road tax, however I wouldn't blame them seeing as every stupid car dealer ad advertises their cars based on "road tax".

Still, its up there with calling the overtaking lane the fast lane, calling it something it's not.

OssianSmyth

The Department of Finance is running a public consultation where they want you to suggest ways to improve the motor tax and VRT systems. They take submissions by email and the deadline is 1 March 2012.

http://taxpolicy.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/co2vrtconsult.pdf

Moving from Motor tax to fuel tax is unlikely due to cross border revenue losses and perceived unfairness to high mileage, rural dwellers. Forgetting the border, the successful UK fuel protests of 2000 made the point that there is a limit to public acceptance of fuel taxation.

Here are some suggestions from me:
The lowest CO2 band is too high (120g/km) - there is room for more, lower level grades
VRT should not be levied on optional safety equipment.
VRT exemption for car sharing club vehicles.
Commercial vehicles to move to CO2 system
Discount for online tax renewal

There is a separate consultation on a VRT export refund scheme which closes 27th Jan. http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=7109