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mna na ira

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2

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    #32
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 23,983 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    I wouldn't say that at all. I think that the Irish establishment shared the same opinion as the establishment in London, concerning all of those involved in the troubles since the late 1960s.

    I think that unionists and nationalists involved in violence were seen as enemies of both states, and that the mainstream press backed this opinion when reporting on the issues and the incidents that took place.
    Border-Rat wrote: »
    The British treated the Unionists as enemies?

    Not the non-violent ones.


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    #33
    Border-Rat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Border-Rat


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Not the non-violent ones.

    So the UK Government set up training camps for the UVF and UDA because they considered them enemies?


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    #34
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 23,983 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Border-Rat wrote: »
    So the UK Government set up training camps for the UVF and UDA because they considered them enemies?

    Could you please clarify?:confused:


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    #35
    glenkeeran
    Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭glenkeeran


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Could you please clarify?:confused:


    The miami showband "for example"...

    Its understood that Captain Nirack (a british officer) was over the brutal murder of this band and its well understood as the border-rat indicates that the British intelligence used loyalists/unionist gangs to do all their dirty work, and use them in a properganda war.


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    #36
    The Scientician
    Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭The Scientician


    Nairac - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Nairac#Collusion_allegations


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    #37
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    glenkeeran wrote: »
    The miami showband "for example"...

    Its understood that Captain Nirack (a british officer) was over the brutal murder of this band and its well understood as the border-rat indicates that the British intelligence used loyalists/unionist gangs to do all their dirty work, and use them in a properganda war.

    You can say it as many times as you like, Robert Nairac was not responsible for the Miami Showband massacre.

    Barron actually states in his report that the surviving members of the band were shown a photo of Nairac and they confirmed he was not the man with a crisp English accent. It is generally accepted that it was Robert Jackson.

    And the British government never set up training camps for loyalists.


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    #38
    glenkeeran
    Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭glenkeeran


    The Scientician wrote: »
    Nairac - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Nairac#Collusion_allegations


    I am from the border region and it was always known that he was a murdering scumbag who was involved in a great deal of murders. theres a story around these parts that he was torchered and went through the mincer at a meat factory in Ravensdale along the border.
    He was a very very bad man.

    Anyway this had nothing to do with Mna na IRA, In my opinion this woman gave up wealth and freedom because she the injustices of the catholics within the North. In my eyes she was a hero.


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    #39
    glenkeeran
    Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭glenkeeran


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    You can say it as many times as you like, Robert Nairac was not responsible for the Miami Showband massacre.

    Barron actually states in his report that the surviving members of the band were shown a photo of Nairac and they confirmed he was not the man with a crisp English accent. It is generally accepted that it was Robert Jackson.

    And the British government never set up training camps for loyalists.

    what makes you qualifed to say this?


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    #40
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    glenkeeran wrote: »
    what makes you qualifed to say this?

    What makes anyone qualified?

    Border rat made an allegation, I made a counter one.

    Let's face it, compared to the IRA, the loyalists were rank amateurs who just carried out mindless sectarian attacks. If they were trained by the British Government they would have been a bit more effective.

    Ok, there was collusion (which saved the lives of a number of Sinn Fein councillors iirc) but the claims are starting to drift off into fantasy land.

    If the actions of rogue elements are attributed to the British Government, then the Irish government should have the same allegations thrown at them.


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    #41
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Border-Rat wrote: »
    So the UK Government set up training camps for the UVF and UDA because they considered them enemies?
    Do you have a source for this or is it hearsay? If you have a source you need to post it so others following the thread can see where your information comes from.
    glenkeeran wrote: »
    The miami showband "for example"...

    Its understood that Captain Nirack (a british officer) was over the brutal murder of this band and its well understood as the border-rat indicates that the British intelligence used loyalists/unionist gangs to do all their dirty work, and use them in a properganda war.
    Do you have a source for this or is it hearsay? If you have a source you need to post it so others following the thread can see where your information comes from.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    And the British government never set up training camps for loyalists.
    Do you have a source for this or is it hearsay? If you have a source you need to post it so others following the thread can see where your information comes from.

    glenkeeran wrote: »
    Anyway this had nothing to do with Mna na IRA, In my opinion this woman gave up wealth and freedom because she the injustices of the catholics within the North. In my eyes she was a hero.
    You admire her motives glenkeeran, that is clear. Do you think her methods were admirable, i.e. what did robbing paintings from Russborough house have to do with curing the injustices in the North? Could she have used her societal psoition in a better way to highlight the issues for example?


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    #42
    Border-Rat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Border-Rat


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Could you please clarify?:confused:

    UVF training camps were set up in Antrim. Source;

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Killing-Britain-John-Black/dp/1904684998

    UDA training camps were set up in Derry, source;

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mad-Dog-Johnny-Adair-Company/dp/1840188901


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    #43
    Young ned of the hill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭Young ned of the hill


    gigino wrote: »
    I wonder in the interests of balance and fairness, will TG4 find 6 people from the UDA / UVF and give them a soft easy ride for half an hour each ?

    It will not do that of course. Far easier to spout republican propoganda.
    TG4 should be disbanded or at least stripped of its taxpayer funding.


    I can't see how you could put a Revolutionary like Dr Rose Dugdale who has a masters degree in philosophy and members of a right-wing reactionary group such the UDA or UVF on equal par. It would similar to equate 'Rosa Parks' and a member of the 'KKK' to be of similar disposition.


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    #44
    Young ned of the hill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭Young ned of the hill


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Because not everyone accepts that they were freedom fighters, that can only ever be an opinion, not an historical fact.


    Yes and they are usually in support Ultra-Nationalist oppressive regimes, Like the one the British had imposed in the Six Counties they had occupied in Ulster that Rose Dugdale who against all odds decided to resist against.


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    #45
    The Scientician
    Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭The Scientician


    Young ned of the hill wrote: »
    I can't see how you could put a Revolutionary like Dr Rose Dugdale who has a masters degree in philosophy and members of a right-wing reactionary group such the UDA or UVF on equal par. It would similar to equate 'Rosa Parks' and a member of the 'KKK' to be of similar disposition.

    Show me an example of Rosa Parks bombing a police station. In any debate like this it isn't enough to just discuss the ends, you must also discuss the means.


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    #46
    Young ned of the hill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭Young ned of the hill


    The Scientician wrote: »
    Show me an example of Rosa Parks bombing a police station. In any debate like this it isn't enough to just discuss the ends, you must also discuss the means.


    I think you should read my post again. I never said Rosa Parks blew up anything.

    In the revolutionary struggle one has to sometime take on the traits of ones enemies.

    Do you deny the Irish people or people anywhere there right to fight off oppressors??

    Do you deny the likes of Rose Dugdale the right to join the resistance??


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    #47
    The Scientician
    Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭The Scientician


    Young ned of the hill wrote: »
    I think you should read my post again. I never said Rosa Parks blew up anything.

    In the revolutionary struggle one has to sometime take on the traits of ones enemies.

    Do you deny the Irish people or people anywhere there right to fight off oppressors??

    Do you deny the likes of Rose Dugdale the right to join the resistance??

    You drew an equivalence between comparisons of the IRA etc with the UDA etc with comparisons of Rosa Parks (a non-violent activist) and the KKK (a terror organisation). It's up to you to explain why that comparison is valid.


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    #48
    gigino
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭gigino


    glenkeeran wrote: »
    In my opinion this woman gave up wealth and freedom because she the injustices of the catholics within the North.

    Why is it most Catholics in the North did not agree with her ? You do realise many more Catholics were killed by the PIRA and INLA than by the RUC / British army ?
    To balance the programme , the TV station should ask some of the tens of thousands of the Catholic victims of Dugdale and her terrorist comrades how they felt about Dugdale being given such a soft, unbalanced half hour of propoganda.


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    #49
    Young ned of the hill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭Young ned of the hill


    The Scientician wrote: »
    You drew an equivalence between comparisons of the IRA etc with the UDA etc with comparisons of Rosa Parks (a non-violent activist) and the KKK (a terror organisation). It's up to you to explain why that comparison is valid.


    No, actually I think you’ll find I haven’t. I have merely pointed out how ridicules the original comparison was.


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    #50
    Young ned of the hill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭Young ned of the hill


    gigino wrote: »
    Why is it most Catholics in the North did not agree with her ? You do realise many more Catholics were killed by the PIRA and INLA than by the RUC / British army ?
    To balance the programme , the TV station should ask some of the tens of thousands of the Catholic victims of Dugdale and her terrorist comrades how they felt about Dugdale being given such a soft, unbalanced half hour of propoganda.

    How in any way shape or form could you know that.

    I think Sinn Féin being the biggest Catholic, Nationalist, Republican party in the occupied six counties show us all how their thought off within there own communities.

    After almost a millennium of imperialist British oppression, I think the Irish people have the right to hear the stories of some the women who put their lives on line to resist it.


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    #51
    Young ned of the hill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭Young ned of the hill


    Rose Dugdale is up there with all great woman who where prepared to lay down lives in the resistance struggle for Irish freedom such as Countess Markievicz, Maud Gone, Gráinne Ní Mháile, Bernadette McAliskey and all the rest. Tiocfaidh ár lá, sin é.


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    #52
    The Scientician
    Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭The Scientician


    Young ned of the hill wrote: »
    No, actually I think you’ll find I haven’t. I have merely pointed out how ridicules the original comparison was.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76457090&postcount=43


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    #53
    The Scientician
    Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭The Scientician


    Young ned of the hill wrote: »
    Rose Dugdale is up there with all great woman who lay down lives in the resistance struggle for Irish freedom such as Countess Markievicz, Maud Gone, Gráinne Ní Mháile, Bernadette McAliskey and all the rest. Tiocfaidh ár lá, sin é.

    None of those women laid down their lives.


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    #54
    Young ned of the hill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭Young ned of the hill


    The Scientician wrote: »
    None of those women laid down their lives.


    They all have put there lives on line for cause of Irish freedom.


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    #55
    Young ned of the hill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭Young ned of the hill


    The Scientician wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76457090&postcount=43


    Yes just as I have said before, I pointed out how ridiculous it was to compare a revolutionary Socialist to Ultra-Nationalist Reactionary Loyalist to create balance. They just don't stack up. Only a reactionary could even make the comparison!!


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    #56
    The Scientician
    Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭The Scientician


    Young ned of the hill wrote: »
    Yes just as I have said before, I pointed out how ridiculous it was to compare a revolutionary Socialist to Ultra-Nationalist Reactionary Loyalist to create balance. They just don't stack up. Only a reactionary could even make the comparison!!

    No you equated the IRA with Rosa Parks and the UDA etc. with the KKK.


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    #57
    Young ned of the hill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭Young ned of the hill


    The Scientician wrote: »
    No you equated the IRA with Rosa Parks and the UDA etc. with the KKK.


    Suppose when you put it like that. What Rose Dugdale did, did sort of follow the same sort of narratives. She also took the bully boys, in this case the British Imperialist. Just like Rosa Parks took the racist bull boys in her case the white supremacist. There is no denying the link between Loyalist and Ultra-right groups like C18 and the EDL.
    Both woman where ultimately looking to emancipate the under privileged. While loyalists and the KKK are bastions of the old feudal type orders. W.A.S.P. and such.


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    #58
    The Scientician
    Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭The Scientician


    Young ned of the hill wrote: »
    Suppose when you put it like that. What Rose Dugdale did, did sort of follow the same sort of narratives. She also took the bully boys, in this case the British Imperialist. Just like Rosa Parks took the racist bull boys in her case the white supremacist. There is no denying the link between Loyalist and Ultra-right groups like C18 and the EDL.
    Both woman where ultimately looking to emancipate the under privileged. While loyalists and the KKK are bastions of the old feudal type orders. W.A.S.P. and such.

    Yes but that all comes back to means. Rosa Park didn't resort to violent action, Rose Dugdale did. While they may have had similar ends, their means diverged hugely.


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    #59
    Young ned of the hill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭Young ned of the hill


    The Scientician wrote: »
    Yes but that all comes back to means. Rosa Park didn't resort to violent action, Rose Dugdale did. While they may have had similar ends, their means diverged hugely.


    Fair enough, She could have lead a very comfortable privileged life which she choose to fight class warfare then went on to the Irish resistance struggle. Which regard as a very brave and selfless act.


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    #60
    gigino
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭gigino


    "Why is it most Catholics in the North did not agree with her ? You do realise many more Catholics were killed by the PIRA and INLA than by the RUC / British army ?
    To balance the programme , the TV station should ask some of the tens of thousands of the Catholic victims of Dugdale and her terrorist comrades how they felt about Dugdale being given such a soft, unbalanced half hour of propoganda. "
    Young ned of the hill wrote: »
    How in any way shape or form could you know that.
    Election results from "the troubles" are a good indicator, would'nt you say, as well as all opinion polls during the troubles. Despite what you may think, Sinn Fein then did not have most of the Catholic vote. The SDLP was bigger then, and some Catholics voted for Alliance and other parties ( some even for the Unionist party if they valued the economic tie to Britain ).


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    #61
    gigino
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭gigino


    Young ned of the hill wrote: »
    She also took the bully boys, in this case the British Imperialist.
    Given more Catholics were killed by the PIRA and INLA than by the RUC / British army , and given the security forces were accountable to the law of the land and were the representatives of the democratically electected government, don't you see it was the PIRA and other terrorists who were the bully boys ?


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