Racism discussion in Soccer

daithijjj

Ive not used feedback before but i will try to keep this short.

I would like the Racism thread and debate in the Soccer forum reopened.

The reasons for its closure that i have read include, there needs to be new developments or there has been too many infractions etc.

Now, since the thread has been closed, there have been several developments. The chair of racism movement 'kick it out' has openly criticised Liverpool Football Club, Patrice Evra has a video running on Sky News throughout the day showing him using words that in some ways contradict his evidence. You cannot open a newspaper or listen to a news bulletin without the debate evolving. Lawyers are writing scathing articles on the FA diciplinary procedure. Black journalists are writing articles criticising the press coverage, the journalists, the FA.

Yet, for all the above (and other articles i have left out), i cannot discuss it, i have no platform to discuss a very important topic that has come to the fore and had Soccer as its vehicle. I am told that i have to go to another site if i want to talk about it?, this cannot be right and i know there are plenty of others who feel the same but our posts are repeatedly deleted.

Personally, i find it ridiculous that we can have a thread open for months, and then as soon as we pass judgement day, all of the ramifications, conclusions and cross examination of the whole debacle cannot be entertained anywhere on the Soccer forum. If people cannot handle the hot topic within the thread then they have a choice to not click into it, i dont think an increase in infractions is a legitimate excuse to close such an important thread. It is emotive and it is hard not to spill it over into club specific threads which nobody wants.

Plenty of people have managed to comment for months in this thread without losing their heads, all i want is a platform to discuss what i am reading in the paper today, seeing on tv today, listening to on the radio today. If this does not constitute new developments then i dont know what does.

El Inho

seconded

amiable

Agree totally with daithijjj.

I contacted a mod about posting something relevant and new in the Racism thread but he refused(politely).

IMO it's time to reopen the thread and I agree that if people can't post in the thread without breaking the charter that's their problem.

Handsome Bob

The problem is that it's an exercise in futility at this stage, regardless of the new issues coming to light. The Racism thread was a massive pain in the hole and I don't miss it, and looking at what's happening in last night's match thread just solidifies that for me.

jonniebgood1

Racism in football is indeed a subject that should be discussed and there are so many worrying issues that have come from this case, i.e. what is more important, the team you support or your tolerance of racism. I can only imagine though that it must be a nightmare to moderate it and it probably shouldnt take place in a soccer forum.

Leiva

I initially didn't mind it been closed and asked for it in not so many words , but when LFC mentioned a few items/issues (post accepting ban) that I had highlighted in previous posts I tried to debate them again , but it seemed that it sounded more like going around in circles , which it was not , and it was the soon closed .

The whole 115 document needs to be debated and not just it's verdict .

There is inconsistencies in evidence been highlighted that deserve to be debated .

There is professionals given their views on the document/verdict that deserve debate.

There is a platter of tabloid (so called) journalists having free reign and talking Shiite that need to highlighted for what they are.

Plus numerous other issues which daithijjj can put forward better than I ever would .

mike65

I'm mixed on this, I'm not missing the thread as its a car-crash but the Liverpool thread isn't appropriate either, there have been developments on the could be/racist theme with more to come no doubt.

For mods its a PITA so I'd simply make it utterly clear that the thread is for news, articles and discussion thereof rather than off the cuff opinion that is been typed out a hundred times before and anyone who goes in to rile, abuse or act the maggot in any way should get a straight red and a serious ban - months not days or a week.

YouTookMyName

No, God No. It was going round in circles and was basically at Pool Vs UTD slagging match.

daithijjj

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Racism in football is indeed a subject that should be discussed and there are so many worrying issues that have come from this case, i.e. what is more important, the team you support or your tolerance of racism. I can only imagine though that it must be a nightmare to moderate it and it probably shouldnt take place in a soccer forum.

How can we not talk about a subject though, that expert sports lawyers are referencing as "extraordinary" when commenting on the FA, their procedures and the failures?. A case, that if heard in court would have been thrown out, according to every single source i can find.

Closing threads because they are more difficult to moderate is kindergarten moderation in my honest opinion. Where can the adults talk about such a subject on boards without impinging on or going off topic in another forum?.

amiable

Further reason is Liverpool Football club have just released a statement with regards last nights incident

stovelid

YouTookMyName wrote: »

It was going round in circles and was basically at Pool Vs UTD slagging match.

Hard to believe that would happen in the soccer forum.

GLaDOS

It seems just to have jumped into the Liverpool vs Oldham match thread

mike65

It was always going to find a place.

fred funk }{

Seems strange there's nowhere in the soccer forum to discuss it. Anyone causing trouble, just ban them.

jonniebgood1

daithijjj wrote: »

Closing threads because they are more difficult to moderate is kindergarten moderation in my honest opinion. Where can the adults talk about such a subject on boards without impinging on or going off topic in another forum?.

Perhaps so, but is discussing racism in a forum where football allegiances take preference (this clearly was the case on the closed forum)?

daithijjj

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Perhaps so, but is discussing racism in a forum where football allegiances take preference (this clearly was the case on the closed forum)?

There are many people who post in the forum who have gone months now without resorting to stuff that results in infractions. What we end up with now is overspill into 2 or 3 other threads and mods are not closing those threads, why?.

Either racism discussion is not allowed or it is allowed but in a thread designated to it. Nothing constructive can come of the current situation.

Personal allegiances on the soccer forum is an everyday occurrence. For me its very simple, completely ignoring it doesnt make it go away. Given the stance that allegiance will always come to the fore, then we might as well never open anything that concerns this topic ever again in the soccer forum if this is the thinking behind closing the thread, and all discussion of it is infracted no matter what.

How can this be preferable and moving forward?. I realise now the tactic is to just ignore it and it will go away eventually, when has this ever fixed anything?. It will be in full force again when the crown prosecution delivers its verdict on John Terry. Or will this be ignored also?

greendom

Handsome Bob wrote: »

The problem is that it's an exercise in futility at this stage, regardless of the new issues coming to light. The Racism thread was a massive pain in the hole and I don't miss it, and looking at what's happening in last night's match thread just solidifies that for me.

All the better to have it in one place then where you and others like you won't need to read it. Otherwise it will keep appearing in anything Liverpool related.

PHB

Thread led to the following:

- Upwards of 275 reported posts by my count! In a month! The combined amount of the United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea Superthreads was about 75!
- It has led to one permanent ban for a poster, and 56 infractions. 56!
- That includes three people on here who have shown support for it to be re-opened.
- Vicious, vicious, attacks on posters.
- Multiple mentions of Hesyel and Hillsborough

So, in a forum where we are meant to be talking about the FA Cup and what's going to happen this weekend, we are instead banning people, loads of people, who when posting about football are perfectly fine posters, but in this thread, seem to lose all sense of logic.

Now this might be worthwhile if the thread was actually discussing anything. It really wasn't. It was a complete mind****, where a new poster would come in every 2-3 pages, make a claim that has either been disproved or proved already, and you'd have a page of posts explaining to people why they are wrong, probably ending in an infraction. It was a thread that was impossible to mod, because it seemed everybody was trolling.

The only downside for me is that there wasn't a place where we could keep it out of all the other threads, that's an issue for me, but if this new racist abuse thing hadn't popped up, I'd figure it'd have died down.

There is not a whole not new to discuss. There is a massive report, with about 7 days of debate, discussion, etc that happened afterwards. At the moment, re-opening the thread adds absolutely nothing to the forum, and will no doubt result in more and more posters getting banned because of it, which will take away from the part of the forum that I think is important, ya know, discussing football!

p.s. It'll be re-opened when there's an actual new development, which will most likely be the Terry case.

daithijjj

PHB wrote: »

Thread led to the following:

- Upwards of 275 reported posts by my count! In a month! The combined amount of the United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea Superthreads was about 75!
- It has led to one permanent ban for a poster, and 56 infractions. 56!
- That includes three people on here who have shown support for it to be re-opened.
- Vicious, vicious, attacks on posters.
- Multiple mentions of Hesyel and Hillsborough

So, in a forum where we are meant to be talking about the FA Cup and what's going to happen this weekend, we are instead banning people, loads of people, who when posting about football are perfectly fine posters, but in this thread, seem to lose all sense of logic.

Now this might be worthwhile if the thread was actually discussing anything. It really wasn't. It was a complete mind****, where a new poster would come in every 2-3 pages, make a claim that has either been disproved or proved already, and you'd have a page of posts explaining to people why they are wrong, probably ending in an infraction. It was a thread that was impossible to mod, because it seemed everybody was trolling.

The only downside for me is that there wasn't a place where we could keep it out of all the other threads, that's an issue for me, but if this new racist abuse thing hadn't popped up, I'd figure it'd have died down.

There is not a whole not new to discuss. There is a massive report, with about 7 days of debate, discussion, etc that happened afterwards. At the moment, re-opening the thread adds absolutely nothing to the forum, and will no doubt result in more and more posters getting banned because of it, which will take away from the part of the forum that I think is important, ya know, discussing football!

p.s. It'll be re-opened when there's an actual new development, which will most likely be the Terry case.

I completely disagree, the Soccer forum should cater for all news surrounding the game. All this mod decision has done is postponed the inevitable by a few weeks. Do the mods feel that the Terry case wont be completely deconstructed and compared to the Suarez case?.

We both know people dont bother their backside reporting posts from superthreads that much, if at all. All that thread required was a firmer hand. And most people wont know this feedback thread even exists to comment on.

I appreciate its difficult to mod, i have been a mod myself but not on boards. The assumption that there is nothing new to discuss is ludicrous to be honest, some of us have plenty of stuff to talk about that has only come out since the thread was closed. All i see is a thread being closed because it suits the mods, but doesnt enrich the forum like it should. Instead, it seems to me that the mod decision here is one of babysitters not moderators.

Xavi6

There should be a thread for every aspect of the game and the fact that racism one has been closed leads me to assume, given PHB's stats, that it was simply too much hassle and the mods couldn't be arsed managing it any more.

And that's not how the forum should be fun.

K-9

Xavi6 wrote: »

There should be a thread for every aspect of the game and the fact that racism one has been closed leads me to assume, given PHB's stats, that it was simply too much hassle and the mods couldn't be arsed managing it any more.

And that's not how the forum should be fun.

The problem seems to be that it is brought up on the United, Liverpool and the Oldham game threads. Its such a big issue it's probably unreasonable to expect it not to be discussed or mentioned on other threads.

Super-Rush

Xavi6 wrote: »

There should be a thread for every aspect of the game and the fact that racism one has been closed leads me to assume, given PHB's stats, that it was simply too much hassle and the mods couldn't be arsed managing it any more.

And that's not how the forum should be fun.

This.

Most threads on Boards can be a PITA but mods have to deal with them because thats why they/i signed up to be mods in the first place.

It seems to be a recurring theme in the soccer forum that people troll/insult/wreck threads for fun, but it takes FOREVER to do something about it. Then the mods close threads because its gotten out of hand. The infraction/banning procedure is there for a reason. Why not use it?

super_furry

The entire thing is bizarre. It's a massive issue that's setting the news agenda at the moment with developments all the time - Liverpool have just issued an apology to Tom Adeyemi - and yet there's nowhere to discuss it.

Don't get me wrong, there was some daft stuff said in the Racism thread from many sides, but the mods voluntereed to deal with exactly that kind of stuff. It seems like this decision has been taken to give them an easier life. If the thread needs modding, do it. If people deserve bans, ban them.

Don't close down valid topics of discussion to protect idiots from themselves.

Morag

Why not have the thread in the Humanities forum?

GLaDOS

Sharrow wrote: »

Why not have the thread in the Humanities forum?

Couldn't do that to the poor humanities mods, they'd be overrun!

Pro. F

PHB wrote: »

Thread led to the following:

- Upwards of 275 reported posts by my count! In a month! The combined amount of the United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea Superthreads was about 75!
- It has led to one permanent ban for a poster, and 56 infractions. 56!
- That includes three people on here who have shown support for it to be re-opened.
- Vicious, vicious, attacks on posters.
- Multiple mentions of Hesyel and Hillsborough

So, in a forum where we are meant to be talking about the FA Cup and what's going to happen this weekend, we are instead banning people, loads of people, who when posting about football are perfectly fine posters, but in this thread, seem to lose all sense of logic.

Now this might be worthwhile if the thread was actually discussing anything. It really wasn't. It was a complete mind****, where a new poster would come in every 2-3 pages, make a claim that has either been disproved or proved already, and you'd have a page of posts explaining to people why they are wrong, probably ending in an infraction. It was a thread that was impossible to mod, because it seemed everybody was trolling.

The only downside for me is that there wasn't a place where we could keep it out of all the other threads, that's an issue for me, but if this new racist abuse thing hadn't popped up, I'd figure it'd have died down.

There is not a whole not new to discuss. There is a massive report, with about 7 days of debate, discussion, etc that happened afterwards. At the moment, re-opening the thread adds absolutely nothing to the forum, and will no doubt result in more and more posters getting banned because of it, which will take away from the part of the forum that I think is important, ya know, discussing football!

p.s. It'll be re-opened when there's an actual new development, which will most likely be the Terry case.

PHB you are taking the piss saying that the forum is supposed to be about talking about the FA Cup and not racism in football. It is a massive issue in general and this particular incident is an extremely high profile recent story. The topics discussed in football have never been limited to the on field action. There is undeniably a huge interest in discussing all the aspects of and relating to the game.

Racism in football is a part of football. Evra and Suarez's case is a part of football. The subsequent stories coming out of Liverpool football club and the reactions to them are a part of football. You are not allowing those discussions to happen.

Posters getting banned is not itself a bad thing. If they can't control themselves when discussing a divisive topic then the forum is better off without them. Punish the bad posters for their actions, not the rest of the forum.

An easy solution to the problem of new posters coming into the thread and repeating already disproved/proved claims would be a mod note spelling out the simple things that have already been proved/disproved and a warning that any new uninformed claims to the contrary will be infracted.

LuckyLloyd

Only saw that this thread was here. Barring discussion of this topic is simply poor moderation. Yes, it's a difficult subject and will cause trouble but that discussion absolutely must take place accepting that there will be repetition.

RasTa

Does that mean Mr.Alan is perm banned from soccer?

#15

RasTa wrote: »

Does that mean Mr.Alan is perm banned from soccer?

Didn't know he was banned. Is Flahavaj banned as well?

All while low-level trolls are allowed wreck threads on a consistent basis. Bizarre state of affairs in the SF at the minute.

super_furry

Aside from the racism topic, I think there needs to be a wider discussion about the standard of modding on the soccer forum.

Xavi6

Some acknowledgement of this thread would be a start, I reported the OP yesterday asking from some admin/mod input and not a peep.

Shock horror.

Blatter

There are too many mods for the soccer forum that aren't online often enough, or actually don't appear to be active at all. There are those that do a great job, but they could do with some help.

I asked before in another feedback thread but didn't get an answer, but what does eZe^ do? When was the last time he actually modded the soccer forum?

The forum could do with at least one more mod (that is a regular) and maybe situations such as those seen in this feedback thread may be better avoided in the future.

#15

There was a mod note in the Utd thread last Sunday, warning people not to discuss moderation on thread and to PM the mods with any issues.

So I PMed a mod about the trolling in the match threads. No response since. Wtf is going on?

As Xavi6 said, even just an acknowledgement would be something.

There is no action being taken against low-level baiting either. Or against re-reg accounts.

amiable

Who are the re reg accounts?

Blatter

amiable wrote: »

Who are the re reg accounts?

Everybody knows that Crazy Horse is Mister men. Either that or they are identical twins, with identical personalities.:pac:

Also, that cloptrop seems suspiciously similar to that partyndbs or whatever he was called that got banned a while ago.

tommyhaas

Blatter wrote: »

Everybody knows that Crazy Horse is Mister men. Either that or they are identical twins, with identical personalities.:pac:

Also, that cloptrop seems suspiciously similar to that partyndbs or whatever he was called that got banned a while ago.

CillDaraAbu was back last week too for the Liverpool Oldham game, power21 or something along those lines

flahavaj

#15 wrote: »

Didn't know he was banned. Is Flahavaj banned as well?

All while low-level trolls are allowed wreck threads on a consistent basis. Bizarre state of affairs in the SF at the minute.

I am, but all my own doing and totally justified tbh. Needed a break tbh. Mister Men et al finally wore me down.:pac:

Looking at the mods list, whio is x_Pyro? Never seen him or her post ever yet they're named as a mod?

flahavaj

Blatter wrote: »

Everybody knows that Crazy Horse is Mister men. Either that or they are identical twins, with identical personalities.:pac:

Also, that cloptrop seems suspiciously similar to that partyndbs or whatever he was called that got banned a while ago.

You are like a computer.

LuckyLloyd

Oh dear, same thing every time. Ye can't focus on one issue and see it through to get it sorted. We're always 10 posts away from another 'the whole modding of the soccer forum is ****ed - I demand changes!' diatribe that never goes anywhere because it's too broad and indigestible.

Let's solve the mod team barring discussion of an issue because they are too lazy to read the thread themselves today. We can have another go at low level trolling next week, and then maybe deal with moderator activity levels a month or so down the line. You can then get onto matters of consistency, content and organisation later in the year.

Instead, it all gets dragged into any thread where the soccer forum is mentioned, and the mod team and admins get to (rightly to be fair) go 'whoa!' and nothing changes.

I think overall things are as good (or bad depending on your perspective) as they've ever been - but this particular issue is a scandalous abrogation of responsibility on behalf of the moderators. Their assertion that this issue is not on topic, relevant or worthwhile of the soccer forum is simply ridiculous.

flahavaj

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh dear, same thing every time. Ye can't focus on one issue and see it through to get it sorted. We're always 10 posts away from another 'the whole modding of the soccer forum is ****ed - I demand changes!' diatribe that never goes anywhere because it's too broad and indigestible.

Let's solve the mod team barring discussion of an issue because they are too lazy to read the thread themselves today. We can have another go at low level trolling next week, and then maybe deal with activity levels a month or so down the line. You can then get onto matters of consistency, content and organisation later in the year.

Instead, it all gets dragged into every thread where the soccer forum is mentioned, and the mod team and admins get to (rightly to be fair) go 'whoa!' and nothing changes.

I think overall things are as good (or bad depending on your perspective) as they've every been - but this particular issue is a scandalous abrogation of responsibility on behalf of the moderators. Their assertion that this issue is not on topic, relevant or worthwhile in the soccer forum is simply ridiculous.

The whole thread locking has already fulfilled its function tbh. Allowed things to simmer down for a while while the powers that be cover their easrs for a week or two and pretend no one's complaining or nothing's wrong. I can kinda understand why they did it but it does reek of taking the easy way out instead of doing what they actually made a committment to so when they took on the role of mod - moderate.

Blatter

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh dear, same thing every time. Ye can't focus on one issue and see it through to get it sorted. We're always 10 posts away from another 'the whole modding of the soccer forum is ****ed - I demand changes!' diatribe that never goes anywhere because it's too broad and indigestible.

Let's solve the mod team barring discussion of an issue because they are too lazy to read the thread themselves today. We can have another go at low level trolling next week, and then maybe deal with moderator activity levels a month or so down the line. You can then get onto matters of consistency, content and organisation later in the year.

Instead, it all gets dragged into any thread where the soccer forum is mentioned, and the mod team and admins get to (rightly to be fair) go 'whoa!' and nothing changes.

I think overall things are as good (or bad depending on your perspective) as they've ever been - but this particular issue is a scandalous abrogation of responsibility on behalf of the moderators. Their assertion that this issue is not on topic, relevant or worthwhile of the soccer forum is simply ridiculous.

It's all well and good to stick to discussing whether the racism thread should be reopened or not, (although there's not much to discuss, it quite obviously should be) but when you have gotten only one mod response, almost 5 days ago, and seemingly absolutely no movement on this issue at all, it's inevitable that issues over the modding in general are going to be brought up.

There's nothing left for any of us to post on this issue, all the reasons on why it should be opened have been given, but no response.

LuckyLloyd

flahavaj wrote: »

The whole thread locking has already fulfilled its function tbh. Allowed things to simmer down for a while while the powers that be cover their easrs for a week or two and pretend no one's complaining or nothing's wrong. I can kinda understand why they did it but it does reek of taking the easy way out instead of doing what they actually made a committment to so when they took on the role of mod - moderate.

It is the easy way out. Just take the ****ing thing in pieces. Mod X comes in to the soccer forum and types 'I'm going to review posts 10068 through 10470'. Next dude who comes online picks up from there, reads what he can and posts what he's covered. And so on and so on.

That way, every post gets covered retroactively, and if there is something particularly controversial, the mod puts it in their forum thread after he's gone through the posts he chose, and it's there for reference. Not rocket science. And in that way, the whole thing (and all the rubbish around it) can be located in the one place.

What the mod team are essentially saying on this one is:

A) they simply can't bear reading up to 100 posts of the thread themselves per day;
they haven't the interest or wherewithal to organise themselves as per the above (or some more efficient way);

And that seems to require an explanation before any of the other potential issues on the forum at the moment are dealt with.

K-9

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh dear, same thing every time. Ye can't focus on one issue and see it through to get it sorted. We're always 10 posts away from another 'the whole modding of the soccer forum is ****ed - I demand changes!' diatribe that never goes anywhere because it's too broad and indigestible.

Let's solve the mod team barring discussion of an issue because they are too lazy to read the thread themselves today. We can have another go at low level trolling next week, and then maybe deal with moderator activity levels a month or so down the line. You can then get onto matters of consistency, content and organisation later in the year.

Instead, it all gets dragged into any thread where the soccer forum is mentioned, and the mod team and admins get to (rightly to be fair) go 'whoa!' and nothing changes.

I think overall things are as good (or bad depending on your perspective) as they've ever been - but this particular issue is a scandalous abrogation of responsibility on behalf of the moderators. Their assertion that this issue is not on topic, relevant or worthwhile of the soccer forum is simply ridiculous.

It's pretty well modded to be fair, there'll always be issues. The mods hoped locking the thread for a week or 2 would calm the issue as it was 5/6 weeks to the Liverpool United match.

Then the FA Cup draw happened!

_blank_

Low level trolling going unchecked is the main gripe.

Every time I raise it with the mods, I get told something is being done, but nothing is done.

If I report posts, I'm told not to report them, if you don't report posts, you get told that the mods can't do anything if posts aren't reported.

The absolute state of the City/United match thread on Sunday is another gripe, and other match threads recently also (show us examples! otherwise we don't believe you!!). Trolls allowed free reign for a couple of hours, until a mod is arsed modding.

The number of people listed as mods does not equal the number of people modding. The number of people modding, and the number of people available to mod at the appropriate times needs to increase. I know the personal circumstances of at least two of the listed mods has changed recently, and fair enough, but if your team isn't capable of covering the busiest times any more, then change the team.

amiable

flahavaj wrote: »

The whole thread locking has already fulfilled its function tbh. Allowed things to simmer down for a while while the powers that be cover their easrs for a week or two and pretend no one's complaining or nothing's wrong. I can kinda understand why they did it but it does reek of taking the easy way out instead of doing what they actually made a committment to so when they took on the role of mod - moderate.

In fairness you're no angel either

flahavaj

amiable wrote: »

In fairness you're no angel either

And have been quite rightfully dealt with accordingly.

Thats not really very relevant to the fact that debate on the hot topic in English soccer has been banned in the place where Socecer is discussed though.

amiable

flahavaj wrote: »

And have been quite rightfully dealt with accordingly.

Thats not really very relevant to the fact that debate on the hot topic in English soccer has been banned in the place where Socecer is discussed though.

I wasn't talking about what you have been rightfully dealt.

I have no knowledge of this at all.

PHB

Ok, this is going to be a giant series of posts responding to the issues raised. You'll have to forgive my general tone, but frankly, a lot of the posts in this thread really annoyed me.

Too Much Hassle Argument

Xavi6 wrote: »

There should be a thread for every aspect of the game and the fact that racism one has been closed leads me to assume, given PHB's stats, that it was simply too much hassle and the mods couldn't be arsed managing it any more.

And that's not how the forum should be fun.

El Pistolero wrote: »

This.

Most threads on Boards can be a PITA but mods have to deal with them because thats why they/i signed up to be mods in the first place.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Their assertion that this issue is not on topic, relevant or worthwhile of the soccer forum is simply ridiculous.

Pro. F wrote: »

PHB you are taking the piss saying that the forum is supposed to be about talking about the FA Cup and not racism in football. It is a massive issue in general and this particular incident is an extremely high profile recent story. The topics discussed in football have never been limited to the on field action. There is undeniably a huge interest in discussing all the aspects of and relating to the game.

Racism in football is a part of football. Evra and Suarez's case is a part of football. The subsequent stories coming out of Liverpool football club and the reactions to them are a part of football. You are not allowing those discussions to happen.

Genuinely, I'm asking this question, did anyone of you actually read what I posted? Genuinely. Because all three of you have made out the following:

PHB is saying that there should be no discussion of the racism issue in the soccer forum.

That is a completely and utterly absurd interpretation of what I said, so I guess I have to repeat it.

Racism Thread happened. Was left open for a very long period. Discussion on the issues happened over this period. Thread was an absolute trainwreck at times, with multiple bannings and infractions on the thread. However, it was left open, because it was a huge issue in football and it's important to discuss it. Then, the thread stopped being a discussion. It became a series of claims and counter-claims, normally coming from people who havent read the previous 1000 posts. Somebody claims one stupid thing, another person argues with them, normally resulting in an infraction.

It's not the infractions that are the problem, it's the fact that they are coming from a thread which is no longer providing any useful discussion or debate past a chance for people to keep making absurd claims that have already been disproven.

Beyond that, I absolutely reject the notion that it's not perfectly acceptable to lock a thread because it is too much trouble relative to the usefullness of the debate. I fully think that that is at the moderators discretion, and all the moderators agreed that this thread should be closed. Want another example of where we did the exact same thing and not a soul raised an eyebrow? The Man Utd - Liverpool who would you want in your team. It was a perfectly valid debate, but we all know exactly what would happen if we let it play out. As such, we closed it, because the relative usefullness vs. trouble wasn't worth it.

PHB

General Outcomes

Pro. F wrote: »

Posters getting banned is not itself a bad thing. If they can't control themselves when discussing a divisive topic then the forum is better off without them. Punish the bad posters for their actions, not the rest of the forum.

This is where I fundamentally differ from nearly all of you. My ideal outcome for a new disruptive poster is not that they are banned, it's that they are altered in their behaviour to become better posters. I will punish people for their actions, and hope that they alter their behaviour in the future. My ideal outcome is not somebody banned. It really upsets me when I have to ban someone, as I'm taking away an independent voice from the forum.

A thread that results in two permanent bans is not an outcome I want to see, and is something I'm happy to try and avoid in the future.

It especially annoys me when we lose posters who are normally extremely interesting and insightful in a variety of facets of the game, because of a side issue to the core debate of football, as in the 22 people on the pitch.

Oh any by the way, since lots of you have consistently accused the mods of being lazy, this is the exact opposite of the easy approach which so many of you advocate, just infract and ban everyone.

It would appear I have a different goal to you though.

PHB

Debate is still ongoing

super_furry wrote: »

The entire thing is bizarre. It's a massive issue that's setting the news agenda at the moment with developments all the time - Liverpool have just issued an apology to Tom Adeyemi - and yet there's nowhere to discuss it.

Don't get me wrong, there was some daft stuff said in the Racism thread from many sides, but the mods voluntereed to deal with exactly that kind of stuff. It seems like this decision has been taken to give them an easier life. If the thread needs modding, do it. If people deserve bans, ban them.

Don't close down valid topics of discussion to protect idiots from themselves.

Frankly, it's not. Nothing new has really happened. The best thing you could come up with was a development unrelated to a different case! There was plently of discussion of the Adeyemi issue in various threads, they weren't blocked in any way. What we've stopped the discussion on is the Suarez & Terry case, until there is an actual new development.

PHB

Other Threads Argument

K-9 wrote: »

The problem seems to be that it is brought up on the United, Liverpool and the Oldham game threads. Its such a big issue it's probably unreasonable to expect it not to be discussed or mentioned on other threads.

Well basically, it's not being discussed really anywhere else much, bar the odd post here or there which I'm happy to delete. It's basically ended the discussion, so my main worry about doing this hasn't really materialised.