FF bracing itself for Mahon report

raymon

According to the Times FF is bracing itself for Mahon report findings

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0107/1224309945896.html

According to the article the party may take action against Bertie Ahern if findings are made against him.

I would be curious if the party is planning to take similar action against Michael Martin himself if there are findings against him in the same report regarding developer Owen O Callaghan .

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ahern-diary-entry-fails-to-jog-martins-memory-1219900.html

mikemac1

The tribunal has so far cost more than €97 million, including almost €50 million for the legal team, nearly €30 million in administration costs, and more than €10 million for third-party legal costs.

EUSSR

FFS

nesf

Thread moved as per OP request.

nesf

mikemac1 wrote: »

No price is too expensive for justice etc. :pac:

galwayrush

nesf wrote: »

No price is too expensive for justice etc. :pac:

The CAB would have saved us a fortune.

nesf

galwayrush wrote: »

The CAB would have saved us a fortune.

CAB deals with very, very different matters.

lugha

I suspect there Mahon will likely be critical of Ahern rather damning. I think it may possibly question his reliability as a witness and frown on much of the way he conducted his financial business but I would be rather surprised if they cite him for corruption.

And if that turns out to be the case then Martin may have a problem. Ahern unquestionably, was once an asset to FF and the hard core support than remains may not take too kindly to an excessive rebuke of him. And the rest of us might see it as nothing more than opportunism.

And in any case, what would be the point? Politically, Ahern’s race is run. I suppose Martin could make a “FF is now clean” speech, but it would undoubtedly be pointed out that Ahern made a very similar speech in the past.

Of course, if the report does go as far as citing him for corruption it will be interesting to see if he remains on the council of state.

Liam Byrne

Two to three years too late.

raymon

lugha wrote: »

I suspect there Mahon will likely be critical of Ahern rather damning. I think it may possibly question his reliability as a witness and frown on much of the way he conducted his financial business but I would be rather surprised if they cite him for corruption.

And if that turns out to be the case then Martin may have a problem. Ahern unquestionably, was once an asset to FF and the hard core support than remains may not take too kindly to an excessive rebuke of him. And the rest of us might see it as nothing more than opportunism.

And in any case, what would be the point? Politically, Ahern’s race is run. I suppose Martin could make a “FF is now clean” speech, but it would undoubtedly be pointed out that Ahern made a very similar speech in the past.

Of course, if the report does go as far as citing him for corruption it will be interesting to see if he remains on the council of state.

Lugha , while your analysis and prediction regarding bertie is possible , I am concerned more about Michael Martin himself and whether his accounts regarding his absence at meetings with O Callaghan when a diary entry shows he was probably there , and the whether the allegation by Gilmartin that he received five or six figure sums from same developer is true .

I am hoping that after spending millions on the tribunal that they will have at least a page or two on Martin himself to outline whether Martins accounts were believed and accepted by the tribunal.

Mr.Micro

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Two to three years too late.

Indeed, and well watered down by now I will bet? People in Ireland do not need a report on the rotter as his lovely FF party gave us ample evidence of the rot that pervaded the party and the nation to all corners. We have a steady stream of the chancers filing for bankruptcy in the UK to avoid the laws here.

Just avoid FF at all costs, because if you do not it will cost you in the end.

Fred Cohen

Hopefully then Mr Martin will be able to tell us how a "political donation" from Owen O'Callaghan ended up in his then girlfriends bank account.

Possibily a mistake ala Sean Gallagher and "the book keepers assistant lodged it to the wrong account".

the groutch

if it helps put Bertie into a prison cell, it'll be worth every penny

Liam Byrne

the groutch wrote: »

if it helps put Bertie into a prison cell, it'll be worth every penny

I have my doubts. Just as NAMA managed to delay until all the golden circle had offloaded their stuff to their wives, this report will be worthless by the time it is released.

Littlehorny

97 million huh, expensive when you think the dogs in the street could tell you that Ahern is nothing but a lying cheating scumbag.

Fred Cohen

the groutch wrote: »

if it helps put Bertie into a prison cell, it'll be worth every penny

I think the only person who was ever remotely likely to see the inside of a cell as a result of this, was a young secretary with a misplaced sense of loyalty and no connections.

Still we live in hope our new German overlords will notice what's going on and do something about it.

yosser hughes

Littlehorny wrote: »

97 million huh, expensive when you think the dogs in the street could tell you that Ahern is nothing but a lying cheating scumbag.

The electorate still voted him and his cronies in to power for 3 terms. I agree with you about Ahern but most of the blame lies with an electorate that willingly and knowingly vote for people they know to be corrupt.

Xenophile

mikemac1 wrote: »

The tribunal has so far cost more than €97 million, including almost €50 million for the legal team, nearly €30 million in administration costs, and more than €10 million for third-party legal costs.

Money was not spent prudently, so much money squandered, but better it was spent and bear the enormous cost than never spent at all. Imagine the IMF, the ECB and company, coming here to find that our way of doing business was so incredible, the wonder is how we continued to attract foreign investment with so much cloak and dagger activity going on involving politicians.

On an optimistic note we did get some value from the tribunals. Much of the very questionable business linked political practices (no exaggeration to say that's a euphemism) have been cleaned up and at least our young people who have had to emigrate will not have to answer these charges with as much embarrassment as a result of the work of the tribunals, not withstanding the unjustifiable costs of same.

Littlehorny

yosser hughes wrote: »

The electorate still voted him and his cronies in to power for 3 terms. I agree with you about Ahern but most of the blame lies with an electorate that willingly and knowingly vote for people they know to be corrupt.

Can only account for myself but i have never voted FF in my life and never will, think too many people in Ireland thought ah sure there the best of a bad lot or FG did not offer a strong enough reason to change.

raymon

Littlehorny wrote: »

Can only account for myself but i have never voted FF in my life and never will, think too many people in Ireland thought ah sure there the best of a bad lot or FG did not offer a strong enough reason to change.

I can't think of anyone who would say " FF are best of a bad lot "


In any case do you have any views on Michael Martin / his Mahon evidence.

raindog.promo

Is there an actual date set?

I've heard 3 or 4 times that the report was to be published but the date is always pushed back. "Ah, we'll publish it tomorrow!"

raymon

I hear it could be within a few days.

This would probably be correct if FF are already sharpening their daggers for Bertie.

Littlehorny

raymon wrote: »

I can't think of anyone who would say " FF are best of a bad lot "


In any case do you have any views on Michael Martin / his Mahon evidence.

I was refering to general elections that took place over the last twenty years not the last one. Fianna fail garnered alot of votes simply because they were the biggest party in the country for along time and Fianna Gael were seen as the farmers/countryside party.

invinciblePRSTV

Such a shame the report wasn't released prior to FF being booted from power. Just like in 2007 when the Tribunal went on hiatus when the election was called, the report went MIA this time last year.

What a great little country we have that investigations into payments to politicians can be delayed and postponed to minimise electoral damage to the political party the main protaganists being investigated belong to.

Shame really, we could have seen FF disintegrate Italian Christian Democrat style if the report had come out last year. Sadly the institution that is FF continues to survive and will surely prosper again.

grizzly

Genuine question: is there any criteria that would result in a prision sentence for Bertie from his political career?

Son Of A Vidic

nesf wrote: »

No price is too expensive for justice etc. :pac:

True, but we need to make the price of justice less expensive somehow.

humanji

grizzly wrote: »

Genuine question: is there any criteria that would result in a prision sentence for Bertie from his political career?

Possibly if he went on a killing spree before the report was released, but I'd seriously doubt anything in the report will result in anything more than a few smacked bottoms

irishdude11

Big deal, the report will come out and after some sh*te talk in the Dail over it for a few days it will be back to business as usual - exactly the same as with Lowry.

Amazing how the gardai can investigate any crime in this country except when it involves politicians. Seems they can only be investigated by tribunals that take 15 years and cost €100 million and end up doing f*** all except enrich the legal profession. A complete joke of a country.

Sierra Oscar

irishdude11 wrote: »

Big deal, the report will come out and after some sh*te talk in the Dail over it for a few days it will be back to business as usual - exactly the same as with Lowry.

Amazing how the gardai can investigate any crime in this country except when it involves politicians. Seems they can only be investigated by tribunals that take 15 years and cost €100 million and end up doing f*** all except enrich the legal profession. A complete joke of a country.

I think that from here on in all political parties should agree that issues of corruption should be investigated through the normal legal challenges with the view to sending a file to the director of public prosecutions. It is clear to all that tribunals have not turned out as they envisaged (i.e. a method of rapid investigation with a report being issued quickly).

Mr.Micro

irishdude11 wrote: »

Big deal, the report will come out and after some sh*te talk in the Dail over it for a few days it will be back to business as usual - exactly the same as with Lowry.

Amazing how the gardai can investigate any crime in this country except when it involves politicians. Seems they can only be investigated by tribunals that take 15 years and cost €100 million and end up doing f*** all except enrich the legal profession. A complete joke of a country.

+ of course business( ie banks/financials) and white collar crime as well appear immune to any real probing. How on earth did Sean Quinn manage to get the 3 billion Euro that he owes Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (the former Anglo Irish bank), that is some loan for one man or business? Its the rest of us that pay for the likes of the sharks. I guess Bertie Ahern is putting the finishing touches to the report himself

raymon

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I think that from here on in all political parties should agree that issues of corruption should be investigated through the normal legal challenges with the view to sending a file to the director of public prosecutions. It is clear to all that tribunals have not turned out as they envisaged (i.e. a method of rapid investigation with a report being issued quickly).

I agree that tribunals are bad value for money.

However....... how has the dpp historically performed when dealing with politicians files ??

Callely ( alleged expense fiddling )and o Dea ( lying under oath )spring to mind.

I have no faith in the office of the DPP to bring justice to politicians

Sierra Oscar

raymon wrote: »

I agree that tribunals are bad value for money.

However....... how has the dpp historically performed when dealing with politicians files ??

Callely ( alleged expense fiddling )and o Dea ( lying under oath )spring to mind.

I have no faith in the office of the DPP to bring justice to politicians

Well we need to ask why the DDP fails in this regard - as by their very nature, Tribunals cannot seem to dish out any real justice whatsoever.

later12

I believe Fianna Fail will come through this a better party than they were 12 months ago.

I don't believe, by the way, that Mahon will be a pivotal moment in Ireland's relationship with Fianna Fail. That moment has come and gone. In politics, you are only ever thinking as far as the next election, and luckily for Fianna Fail, the next election is not until the local government election of June 2014.

In June 2014, the overriding sentiment will not pertain to the Mahon Tribunal, nor whether or not the ardchomhairle expelled an ex-Taoiseach, but of 3 successive Fine Gael austerity budgets. Fianna Fail's success - I believe - depends largely on Fine Gael's failure, and Michael Martin's ability to recapture the vacuum left behind by disenchantment with the present coalition.

Mahon will be nothing but an old memory, it will not inform the voters of 2014 nor 2016 (should FG-LAB last that long).

hallelujajordan

later10 wrote: »

I believe Fianna Fail will come through this a better party than they were 12 months ago.

I don't believe, by the way, that Mahon will be a pivotal moment in Ireland's relationship with Fianna Fail. That moment has come and gone. In politics, you are only ever thinking as far as the next election, and luckily for Fianna Fail, the next election is not until the local government election of June 2014.

In June 2014, the overriding sentiment will not pertain to the Mahon Tribunal, nor whether or not the ardchomhairle expelled an ex-Taoiseach, but of 3 successive Fine Gael austerity budgets. Fianna Fail's success - I believe - depends largely on Fine Gael's failure, and Michael Martin's ability to recapture the vacuum left behind by disenchantment with the present coalition.

Mahon will be nothing but an old memory, it will not inform the voters of 2014 nor 2016 (should FG-LAB last that long).

I think you are spot on . . the Mahon tribunal was played out in a public forum and media coverage on every nod or frown Ahern and others made in Dublin Castle was extensive. . the damage was done a long time ago . . we will have more important issues to be concerned about when we next go to the polls. . .

In some ways, this publication will be a positive thing for FF. It will give Micheal Martin an opportunity to close the book on that chapter in Fianna Fail history and move on with his work in rebuilding the party.

raymon

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I think you are spot on . . the Mahon tribunal was played out in a public forum and media coverage on every nod or frown Ahern and others made in Dublin Castle was extensive. . the damage was done a long time ago . . we will have more important issues to be concerned about when we next go to the polls. . .

In some ways, this publication will be a positive thing for FF. It will give Micheal Martin an opportunity to close the book on that chapter in Fianna Fail history and move on with his work in rebuilding the party.

I believe that the Mahon report should answer questions about Michael Martin and whether they believe his statements

Personally I don't believe M Martin's statements regarding meeting with o Callaghan and Bertie at Leinster house , and large sums of money that Martin allegedly received.

Whether Bertie was corrupt or not is not that important to me . I know what he is already and didn't need 100 million to tell me.

So I think the mahon tribunal can only be good for FF if they purge the remaining bad eggs from the party .( including M Martin if there are findings against him )

hallelujajordan

raymon wrote: »

I believe that the Mahon report should answer questions about Michael Martin and whether they believe his statements

Personally I don't believe M Martin's statements regarding meeting with o Callaghan and Bertie at Leinster house , and large sums of money that Martin allegedly received.

Whether Bertie was corrupt or not is not that important to me . I know what he is already and didn't need 100 million to tell me.

So I think the mahon tribunal can only be good for FF if they purge the remaining bad eggs from the party .( including M Martin if there are findings against him )

And if they dont ? Will you continue to harp on about this nonsense accusing Martin of gross misdeeds or will you accept that a lack of any substantive comments about Martin is vindication in itself ?

Personally, I think it is unlikely that the report will make much if any reference to M Martin at all . .

raymon

hallelujajordan wrote: »

And if they dont ? Will you continue to harp on about this nonsense accusing Martin of gross misdeeds or will you accept that a lack of any substantive comments about Martin is vindication in itself ?

Personally, I think it is unlikely that the report will make much if any reference to M Martin at all . .

I have never accused Martin of anything ......what did I accuse him of ??

Please withdraw this statement

hallelujajordan

Haven't we already had this debate ? ?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76034125&postcount=163

raymon

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Haven't we already had this debate ? ?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76034125&postcount=163

I have not alleged anything.

It is a fact that M Martin received money from O Callaghan and lodged a donation into his wife's bank account. He has said so himself

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ahern-diary-entry-fails-to-jog-martins-memory-1219900.html

hallelujajordan

raymon wrote: »

I have not alleged anything.

It is a fact that M Martin received money from O Callaghan and lodged a donation into his wife's bank account. He has said so himself

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ahern-diary-entry-fails-to-jog-martins-memory-1219900.html

He also explained why . .

. . your analysis that this act renders him unsuitable for office turns it into an allegation . .

raymon

hallelujajordan wrote: »

He also explained why . .

. . your analysis that this act renders him unsuitable for office turns it into an allegation . .

Please show a link to his explanation, I have not seen one I believe.

Because I hold a personal belief that M Martin is unsuitable for office is not an allegation. It is an opinion

hallelujajordan

raymon wrote: »

Please show a link to his explanation, I have not seen one I believe.

Because I hold a personal belief that M Martin is unsuitable for office is not an allegation. It is an opinion

You posted a link yourself . .

http://www.irishexaminer.com/election/analysis/martin-no-impropriety-in-donations-from-developer-144327.html

raymon

hallelujajordan wrote: »

You posted a link yourself . .

http://www.irishexaminer.com/election/analysis/martin-no-impropriety-in-donations-from-developer-144327.html

I thought you were going to post a believable explanation.

I don't believe any of those statements.

Hopefully the Mahon judges will comment on Martin and his statements and evidence.

hallelujajordan

raymon wrote: »

I thought you were going to post a believable explanation.

I don't believe any of those statements.

Hopefully the Mahon judges will comment on Martin and his statements and evidence.

Why ? Do you have some evidence to indicate that he was lying ? That he received corrupt payments ? That the money was lodged to his wifes account for improper reasons ? That it wasn't used for election expenditure as he says it was . . ?

raymon

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Why ? Do you have some evidence to indicate that he was lying ? That he received corrupt payments ? That the money was lodged to his wifes account for improper reasons ? That it wasn't used for election expenditure as he says it was . . ?

I dont believe him , I believe Gilmartin. let's see if the judges do

hallelujajordan

raymon wrote: »

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Why ? Do you have some evidence to indicate that he was lying ? That he received corrupt payments ? That the money was lodged to his wifes account for improper reasons ? That it wasn't used for election expenditure as he says it was . . ?

I dont believe him , I believe Gilmartin. let's see if the judges do

So, the answer is NO then ?

raymon

hallelujajordan wrote: »

So, the answer is NO then ?

I have an opinion that I don't believe his explanation.

I don't have any evidence that he was telling the truth or lies.

I just don't believe him,

Do you have proof he was telling the truth?

Liam Byrne

raymon wrote: »

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Why ? Do you have some evidence to indicate that he was lying ? That he received corrupt payments ? That the money was lodged to his wifes account for improper reasons ? That it wasn't used for election expenditure as he says it was . . ?

I dont believe him , I believe Gilmartin. let's see if the judges do

Ah now raymon - surely the fact that Martin reinstates people of the calibre of O'Dea should be proof enough that he's beyond reproach and has the mindset to ensure that everything is above board, ethical and legal ?

Biggins

the groutch wrote: »

if it helps put Bertie into a prison cell, it'll be worth every penny

...And we'll be paying for that too, to accommodate and feed him!

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

raymon wrote: »

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Why ? Do you have some evidence to indicate that he was lying ? That he received corrupt payments ? That the money was lodged to his wifes account for improper reasons ? That it wasn't used for election expenditure as he says it was . . ?

I dont believe him , I believe Gilmartin. let's see if the judges do

Ah now raymon - surely the fact that Martin reinstates people of the calibre of O'Dea should be proof enough that he's beyond reproach and has the mindset to ensure that everything is above board, ethical and legal ?

I'm pretty sure it was the good people of Limerick who reinstated O'Dea.

Liam Byrne

hallelujahjordan wrote:

I'm pretty sure it was the good people of Limerick who reinstated O'Dea.

No - the good ones voted for the other candidates.

But seriously - is this yet another example of FF blaming the wider general public for their fvck ups and unacceptable actions ?

Because not only did a majority explicitly vote against Weasel, but even the minority who voted for him DID NOT reinstate him to the FF Front Bench - that was done by Martin and no-one else.

Can you EVER lay blame where it lies ? Even ONCE ?